The "God's Plan" Illusion

[BeyondET]

It's also very easy to judge someone else's beliefs when you're convinced that yours are right and everyone else's are wrong.

That's both sides of the fence, wouldn't you agree?

 

[BeyondET]

You know what? I really hope so.

And you don't see the problem there? Does it sound fair that someone who's killed 5 people, but converted to Christianity is getting an easy ticket to paradise while someone who's done nothing near anything that horrible is gonna burn forever because his thought process didn't accept Christ. See, if the rules are focused on "just believe, and you're golden!", then people can freely do horrible things if they still believe in Christ. I can't imagine God is that stupid and petty that he works completely off that non-logic.

Where? On Earth? In heaven?

I was also raised by parents that were not religious, but seem to believe in God and Christ. As I got older and saw the world for what it really was, my beliefs vanished.

Dude what are you talking about? Where is this culling nonsense coming from? When I talk about evolution, I'm not talking about who gets to bone who/who has babies, I'm talking about how genetics and form change, through DNA and whatnot.

Okay, so it's a sin because it doesn't fit God's plan for a man and a woman. Big god damn deal, that still doesn't make the whole person. Being sent to hell just for sexual orientation is one of the stupidest god damn things I've ever heard in my life. You Christians see a gay person, therefore you see someone that's "hell-bound". I just see another person. Just arguing this point is giving me diabetes.

Be it gay, straight, bi, trans, whatever, the whole drag stuff in children's schools, hormone shots and puberty blockers are awful, but I think I'd rather live in a world where these people are at least treated like humans rather than gay bashing them, causing physical harm to them or outright killing them. There are 8 billion people in the world, some of them being gay is not gonna stop the world from turning. Also, not every LBGTQ person agrees with the things you mentioned either.

I had this conversation with previous posters in this thread, ones that really ran from a lot of topics I brought up and just responded when the conversation was on easy mode for them. Do you know what it's like to be a gay/bi/etc. person? To be mocked, ridiculed and confused for being different? Oh yeah, let's tell them they're going to hell too, yeah! That'll make 'em feel good! That'll help 'em out! That's not painfully idiotic at all! And now these people have to do the extra work of being religious and praying only for a chance to suddenly not be gay anymore otherwise they suffer eternally for it! Oh boy, your God is looking like a real good guy right about now!!

I can't imagine being in hell forever because I was three prayers away from having my sexual orientation changed. What a way to go, to have your entire soul worth what you were attracted to. Way to go, God! Way to go, Bible! No wonder so many atheists exist.

Here comes the logical fallacy again. This whole "Hitler had a choice" crap doesn't work if God knows the ending. If God can see multiple timelines and choices, then this could work. If not, your argument explodes into nothingness here.

If I was God, I would not have my creations... "h3LL-bOunD" because they came out differently than what I wanted, but were still morally balanced. A few men like other men? Okay, whatever. Some of them like both sexes? Better get them ready for an eternity of pain, except not at all. If I'm gonna be this forgiving, loving god, I should be smart enough to see past this stupid garbage. I don't care what your hurr durr Bible says. All 8 billion of us are not gonna be followers of Christ, God should know this, he was the one who gave us free will. God can read our minds, so he's gonna know who truly believes and who pretends to believe just to get into heaven.

Sometimes you Christians make your God look like a damn monster, and you have no idea you're even doing it. See man, the surrounding reality is the one we know, the one we have to live in. The stories of the Bible do not seem to always conform to that, so can you truly blame people for no believing it?

Well aware...

Nope. Doesn't always work like that. Some sicknesses are nothing but pain and death, no "comfortable life" about that, and a lot of people live long lives exactly like that. Can't blame them for being atheists either.

I've explained my case for why that won't happen.

I was being facetious with the "white" thing. "Now Adam, see that tree right there? That I put in front of you that can be reached at any time? Don't touch that tree, I don't want you eating from it, despite the fact I put it within reach." Now, the magical talking snake part which... totally definitely happened in real life... how come we don't have talking animals like that nowadays? Funny how this wacky stuff happens in the Bible but not as much in real life. Hmmmmm. The devil is still out there, right?

God made Lucifer, God made that tree, God made humanity, God made the world, God knows the future. So... God would be the overarching reason sin exists, whether it's intentional or not.

- a Christian

Hey, you know what else has infinitely more visible proof to back it up. I'll give you a hint, it rhymes with blatheism.

You know how you mention the negatives of people being gay? You know what else has negatives? Christianity. You guys have corrupt priests, people who justify murders by using religion, etc. Regardless of beliefs, the sinning nature is there, and being a Christian does not automatically make a person better.

I'd like to think at least some of these things would be in a museum or something. And I'm not using that lone statement as proof of anything, but these are gravely important biblical things that have no physical presence for some reason.

Because we can study what happens to things when they get X old, Y old, study aging patterns and using multiple types of atomic readings that can help prove the date of something. You said there was more proof for the Bible's origin stories than that of science. If that's the case, why does the internet always tell me 4 billion years when I type "age of earth"? It's not just the Earth we study, but also the rest of the universe. We can also measure the fusion of stars and the heat they give off, which is how we know the age of the Sun, and when it will eventually explode. Like I said, it's not just Earth that can have age checks.

Oh really? What's this then? If these biblical facts are so evident? Why is Wikipedia not mentioning things in that way? Why is everything going all in on the universe being billions of years old? Is that just an evil plot to keep us from God? What about those archaic humans and caveman discoveries? How the sweet hell are we gonna have 8 billion people on the planet in just 6,000 years dude? Why do we have shared DNA with monkeys but not so many other animals? Just because?

How noble of him.

I read both versions quite a long time ago, and most of it left me horrified. How do you know for sure some stories aren't allegorical? No matter what you think of the Bible, these facts stay the same: the book was written by sinning, flawed humans.

And there are atheists that have helped people, and have good hearts, but may not believe in Christ. Still, no heaven for them. Good to know nasty Christians have a better chance at paradise than good-hearted atheism, because God is just so loving and fair.

Yes I did... at the very least, I believed in his sacrifice, or at least what it represented. God or no God, I still respect Jesus deeply for going through all that. Even atheist scholars agree that Jesus existed.

I get furious during certain points, especially ones about gay people being hell-bound, because I feel that devalues them, and I can't stand that, because I can't see a person in that way. Me simply being straight and believing in Christ doesn't automatically make me better than someone. As for the strawmen, I'm assuming you're talking about when I use theoretical people for examples.

Okay, so believing is totally getting me up there. Good to know. How much of morality is played into the equation? Because I wouldn't have paradise if I killed or raped someone.

Did Jesus die for everyone? Or just the people who will believe him..?

Where did you get the idea of its easy just believe?

Even if someone is doing miracles and casting out demons still won't be enough.


Matthew 7:22
Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’

 

[Aaron112]

"And you don't see the problem there? Does it sound fair that someone who's killed 5 people, but converted to Christianity is getting an easy ticket "
If anyone sins, the penalty for that/their sin is death. This has not changed. No "easy ticket"

 

[OnceLostButNowFound]

Did Jesus die for everyone? Or just the people who will believe him..?

For everyone, but we're still given the choice to follow Him or not.

I can see I'm not getting anywhere by trying to argue with you about everything else, so instead, I'm just going to ask:

How has the past year been for you? Do you have any plans for 2025?

 

[Cerraco]

That's both sides of the fence, wouldn't you agree?

Where's this coming from? Are you saying this because that could easily be said about atheism as well?

"And you don't see the problem there? Does it sound fair that someone who's killed 5 people, but converted to Christianity is getting an easy ticket "
If anyone sins, the penalty for that/their sin is death. This has not changed. No "easy ticket"

Alright, what if the person did still unspeakably horrible things?

For everyone, but we're still given the choice to follow Him or not.

I can see I'm not getting anywhere by trying to argue with you about everything else, so instead, I'm just going to ask:

How has the past year been for you? Do you have any plans for 2025?

I knew this was gonna happen. I was real curious to seeing what your take was on the archaic humans thing, which has been ignored by roughly everyone. I also love how you said "There was no convincing me" or whatever it was, like the entire goal was for me to give up, and just blindly convert to Christianity when I've stated how I can't do that.

As for the past year, I must say, it's been infuriating and disappointing. I don't know what your plans are, but I never really celebrated new years, to me that's just another standard day.

 

[OnceLostButNowFound]

I knew this was gonna happen. I was real curious to seeing what your take was on the archaic humans thing, which has been ignored by roughly everyone. I also love how you said "There was no convincing me" or whatever it was, like the entire goal was for me to give up, and just blindly convert to Christianity when I've stated how I can't do that.

I don't expect you to convert "blindly". I accepted Jesus because I grew to understand who He and His Father were. I knew what I was going into.

And I've already told you what "my take" is. The scientists who assigned them the "old earth" ages are wrong, and the Bible is right. That's the truth. There are countless resources across the internet that say just that as well if you want to check them out.

I pray for the absolute best for you and hope God gives you the ears to hear and the eyes to see.

 

[Cerraco]

I don't expect you to convert "blindly". I accepted Jesus because I grew to understand who He and His Father were. I knew what I was going into.

And I accept Jesus simply because the logic I love so much does correlate quite nicely to history, also, there are non-Christian sources that also confirm the existence of the guy.

And I've already told you what "my take" is. The scientists who assigned them the "old earth" ages are wrong, and the Bible is right. That's the truth. There are countless resources across the internet that say just that as well if you want to check them out.

Okay, see... you're skirting the specific topic I brought up, you've told me many times how the billions-of-years-old Earth is wrong because... it's just wrong. If this evidence is so present and obvious, why isn't that info making its way to a place like Wikipedia? I also asked multiple times about the remains of archaic humans and the specific topic was dodged every single time. This is the same kind of site that gives us the exact chemical formula of every element and chemical out there.

I pray for the absolute best for you and hope God gives you the ears to hear and the eyes to see.

If me believing in Christ (enough) gets me to heaven, I don't need it. He can give that to the people who are suffering more than me.

 

[BeyondET]

Where's this coming from? Are you saying this because that could easily be said about atheism as well?

Indeed

 

[Aaron112]

Alright, what if the person did still unspeakably horrible things?

"And you don't see the problem there? Does it sound fair that someone who's killed 5 people, but converted to Christianity is getting an easy ticket "
If anyone sins, the penalty for that/their sin is death. This has not changed. No "easy ticket"

 

[Cerraco]

Indeed

I don't see how that's "playing both sides", that just means one statement can be used for any side, it doesn't mean I'm playing on multiple sides.

If anyone sins, the penalty for that/their sin is death. This has not changed. No "easy ticket"

And ALL sins fall into this category? Even the minor ones? That is to say, ones that are not murder and rape.

 

[Aaron112]

ALL sins fall into this category?

Even Just being an unredeemed sinner would mean/means/ death.

 

[Cerraco]

Even Just being an unredeemed sinner would mean/means/ death.

Redeemed sinner = heaven
Unredeemed sinner = hell

Both are sinners, and probably will be until death because... human nature, but one still suffers forever. Cool, we're falling back to Sunday school teacher analogy. How much is forgiven when you believe in Christ? I'm seeing some slippery slopes here.

 

[Aaron112]

How much is forgiven when you believe in Christ?

Even the demons believe, and they shudder in terror because they know their judgment is near. They are not ever forgiven.
Many people may believe Jesus lived and died and was raised from the dead, or parts there-of,
and, without repentance, they are not forgiven.

 

[Cerraco]

Even the demons believe, and they shudder in terror because they know their judgment is near. They are not ever forgiven.

What are you talking? Demons already in hell? Or demons as in terrible people?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

And I accept Jesus simply because the logic I love so much does correlate quite nicely to history, also, there are non-Christian sources that also confirm the existence of the guy.

Okay, see... you're skirting the specific topic I brought up, you've told me many times how the billions-of-years-old Earth is wrong because... it's just wrong. If this evidence is so present and obvious, why isn't that info making its way to a place like Wikipedia? I also asked multiple times about the remains of archaic humans and the specific topic was dodged every single time. This is the same kind of site that gives us the exact chemical formula of every element and chemical out there.

If me believing in Christ (enough) gets me to heaven, I don't need it. He can give that to the people who are suffering more than me.

See. You already have what you need, Cerraco.

Also, maybe take a look at my book list on my personal CF page. I bet you'll find some material there that will be helpful to shoring up your remaining questions.

 

[Aaron112]

What are you talking?

About belief/ beliefs/ believing .......

Demons already in hell? Or demons as in terrible people?

no, no.
/terrible people ? / yes, everywhere!

 

[Cerraco]

no, no.
/terrible people ? / yes, everywhere!

What do you mean by "even demons believe"? I know I've said this a bunch of times, and no shade, but your English composition makes you extremely hard to understand, dude.

 

[Aaron112]

What do you mean by "even demons believe"? I know I've said this a bunch of times, and no shade, but your English composition makes you extremely hard to understand, dude.

That's simply a quote from , directly from, Scripture. People say "I believe", without realizing that does not help them if their belief is like the belief of demons - knowing Jesus is Messiah, but not having any changed life, no repentance, no seeking Jesus' Way to do everything.

 

[Cerraco]

That's simply a quote from , directly from, Scripture. People say "I believe", without realizing that does not help them if their belief is like the belief of demons - knowing Jesus is Messiah, but not having any changed life, no repentance, no seeking Jesus' Way to do everything.

Since you're saying that people gotta go with Christ to reach heaven, there are people out there who are born ugly and constantly made fun of, are dirt poor, homeless, had all kinds of awful things happen to them. Some were even religious at first, but have no faith since they think that no God would ever give them that life. Should I tell them they're going straight to hell unless they rework their way of thinking?

 

[BeyondET]

I don't see how that's "playing both sides", that just means one statement can be used for any side, it doesn't mean I'm playing on multiple sides.

I didn't say anything about playing both sides.