The "God's Plan" Illusion

[Jeff Saunders]

Your explanation about the narrow gate is a very obscure interpretation. Anyone reading that passage without any preconceived notions about it would never come to such an interpretation. It’s extremely clear that Jesus is the narrow gate that leads to life as opposed to the wide gate that leads to destruction because He’s been presented as the only means to life as opposed to destruction or death throughout the scriptures. That passage is even paralleled in John 10 in reference to salvation as opposed to destruction.

“So Jesus said to them again, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. All who came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture. The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly.”
‭‭John‬ ‭10‬:‭7‬-‭10‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

The only way anyone can possibly come to any other interpretation of that passage is if they’re intentionally trying not to understand it as it was spoken and specifically trying to insert some alternative meaning to it. Jesus is always the means to life in every parable that deals with life and destruction or death, in every single case in scripture Jesus is always the metaphorical or allegorical means to life. Brother please, let the scriptures say what they say.

Yes Jesus is the only way to life , that’s why he died. But why do you assume that is talking about the next life Matt 7 is talking about this life we live in now. Scripture says that when you accept Jesus we cross over from death to life, that’s not talking about the next life that is now. Think about this almost all of the problems we have ,except for natural disasters, come from people who are not following Jesus. If the whole world would follow Jesus our time in these moral bodies would be so much better, Jesus already has the next age covered he dies for all that all will live , but until then we are stuck on the earth and God has provided a way for life to be better. My starting point is 1Tim 2:3-6 God will none parish/ John 12:47 Jesus came to save the world /Acts 3:21 Jesus is the restoration of all things / Phil 2:10-11 Every knee will bow and every tongue will gladly joyfully confess that Jesus is Lord- the very thing that all must do and will do. So these scriptures are my preconceptions they are the telos of God.

 

[Cerraco]

I understand your grievances. You're lonely. You're frustrated with life, frustrated with women and other things, and God doesn't seem to be in the business of parting the Red Sea for anyone else but Moses. I get it. I've been there. But at the same time, things aren't going to get any better by bashing the Bible in a discordant way.

So yeah, a couple points here. 1.) This is not solely about my frustrations, but me seeing the bad lives of others. 2.) "Bashing the Bible" is not how I would word it. I feel like this one-sides my posts way more than it should. I admitted to agreeing with some parts of the Bible, admitted I do believe in Christ (to an extent) and even believe that removing religion from the world would be a bad thing, not a good thing where someone like Richard Dawkins would propose such a thing.

Notice how the first posts in this thread were people blindly just quoting the Bible and going, "Yup, that's how it is." with full confidence. Want to know why a lot of Christians surround their entire frame of thinking on the Bible? Because they HAVE to, because a lot of them want to please God so much that even their own thoughts can't stray away from that ancient book. "Oh man, gotta say and think the right things! Don't wanna lose my ticket to heaven!" I'll repeat this point, it's easy to kick back and think that you're going straight to heaven and oh well, sucks for everyone else when you got what you need. This is exactly what it felt like when Clare73 started posting. Come to think of it, it might have been that Bill Wiese and his "23 Minutes in Hell" story that sparked all this, as he said, "I don't care what you were raised with, this book is the only way to heaven!"

Is the Bible this perfect book? Or are people taught to think it is the perfect book? I'd sooner stay an atheist than be one of those Christians that condemn and judge others for being gay/lesbian or something, then telling them that they're gonna burn for it. Funny how we have this "love thy neighbor, be a good person" narrative, but at the same time, if something does so much as think differently about Christ, this narrative dissipates.

Life is too short and the Devil is too slick for you or I to stay on this hopeless track very long.

My entire life is not based around Bible bashing, but I do see an issue when people claim that 2+2=500, which is something a lot of religious people do, whether they realize or not.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

So yeah, a couple points here. 1.) This is not solely about my frustrations, but me seeing the bad lives of others. 2.) "Bashing the Bible" is not how I would word it. I feel like this one-sides my posts way more than it should. I admitted to agreeing with some parts of the Bible, admitted I do believe in Christ (to an extent) and even believe that removing religion from the world would be a bad thing, not a good thing where someone like Richard Dawkins would propose such a thing.

That's good. We're on the same page there, Cerraco.

Notice how the first posts in this thread were people blindly just quoting the Bible and going, "Yup, that's how it is." with full confidence. Want to know why a lot of Christians surround their entire frame of thinking on the Bible? Because they HAVE to, because a lot of them want to please God so much that even their own thoughts can't stray away from that ancient book. "Oh man, gotta say and think the right things! Don't wanna lose my ticket to heaven!" I'll repeat this point, it's easy to kick back and think that you're going straight to heaven and oh well, sucks for everyone else when you got what you need. This is exactly what it felt like when Clare73 started posting. Come to think of it, it might have been that Bill Wiese and his "23 Minutes in Hell" story that sparked all this, as he said, "I don't care what you were raised with, this book is the only way to heaven!"

Oh, I understand you on these points more than you know. But also keep in mind that a number of Christians "out there" in the world who come here on CF, or even those you just happen to run into in life whether in your family or among your friends and neighbors, or those at the local eatery, have emotional and mental problems. They tend not to wear an identifying badge for these problems on their sleeve to let you and me know they have some struggles they're dealing with which, in turn, affects how they attach themselves to, read and apply, the Bible. For instance, I know a few people who are Christian and who have autism which affects how they think about and interpret the Bible, but they won't usually tell anyone about it since its such a personal problem. I also have known some Christians who go to churches that are essentially cultic cesspools of brainwashing and social dysfunctionality. Any of us would be well advised to avoid those churches.

Is the Bible this perfect book? Or are people taught to think it is the perfect book? I'd sooner stay an atheist than be one of those Christians that condemn and judge others for being gay/lesbian or something, then telling them that they're gonna burn for it. Funny how we have this "love thy neighbor, be a good person" narrative, but at the same time, if something does so much as think differently about Christ, this narrative dissipates.

No. The Bible isn't a perfect book, but it doesn't really need to be in order to be "the Word of God." Is just needs to be historically representative enough, like any documents about events and persons from the past, to present to us some true propositions, however partial those propositions and statements may be.

My entire life is not based around Bible bashing, but I do see an issue when people claim that 2+2=500, which is something a lot of religious people do, whether they realize or not.

Well, yeah. I agree with you on that, too. It's not fun to have to deal with people who throw their wits to the wind and call it "God's Calling."

Still, we shouldn't let other people who engage the Bible in only anti-intellectual ways sour for us the whole prospect of following Christ.

 

[Aaron112]

My entire life is not based around Bible bashing, but I do see an issue when people claim that 2+2=500, which is something a lot of religious people do, whether they realize or not.

So do you realize this is a hopeless track you keep perpetuating.


One big question unanswered so far as I know is why do you do this?

Is someone supporting you , paying you, encouraging you to cause stress by posting sinfully ?

 

[Cerraco]

So do you realize this is a hopeless track you keep perpetuating.

By trying to make sense of things that don't make sense in religion?

One big question unanswered so far as I know is why do you do this?

Is someone supporting you , paying you, encouraging you to cause stress by posting sinfully ?

I'm sorry... "posting sinfully"? Is this a joke or something? I have been commenting on things that don't add up, does that make me "sinful"? Or is it sinful because I'm not agreeing with you? And most of the time people here have been going "well because the Bible says..." and leaving it at that. Why do I do this? The answer is in the first thirteen words of this very post. Is it wrong for a creation to understand the creator, assuming there is one?

Whether I "get off this hopeless track or not", it's not like the core issue magically goes away.

 

[Aaron112]

By trying to make sense of things that don't make sense in religion?

yes

 

[Cerraco]

yes

So basically to not be sinful, just blindly agree with things and not make sense of things? Cool, got it. Good way to go through life.

Every man and woman and child posting is posting sinfully unless redeemed by Jesus Christ.

In the case of mankind, men and women cannot understand the creator. (unless He Himself opens the mind, takes away the veil, and HE Himself grants understanding)

Wouldn't that mean you're posting sinfully as well? Where is the point here? If the Bible is anything to go by, that doesn't cut it my dude, there is still an entire universe around it that doesn't agree with the book. God gave us both, the two do not click perfectly, this is mostly why atheists exist.

 

[Aaron112]

Wouldn't that mean you're posting sinfully as well?

unless redeemed by Jesus Christ.

 

[BNR32FAN]

On the Matt 7 and the when God says that they won’t enter into the kingdom that’s talking about this age . Very few find God in the mortal body but the rest do find God in the next age. You are making the mistake that you can only accept Jesus while in the mortal body, no place else n scripture does it say that God only pursues you while in the mortal body after that God quits his pursuit of you. Did not Jesus say he would leave the 99 and pursue the lost sheep until he finds it ? Why do you think he quits?

I think He will quit because He said that everyone won’t enter heaven. Nowhere does He say anything about this age or any other age. You’re making a statement that is not only unsupported by the passage but is teaching the exact opposite of what He said.

 

[BNR32FAN]

It all depends on what you believe the telos of God is and how we prioritize scripture. For most of the western tradition of Christianity, eternal hell is the pillar that your whole belief stands on and if that is removed your whole tradition falls apart.

Ok if you’re going to make this claim you should explain how heaven and hell is the “pillar” of western tradition. And eternal torment isn’t a western tradition because it was taught in the east as well.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Yes Jesus is the only way to life , that’s why he died. But why do you assume that is talking about the next life Matt 7 is talking about this life we live in now. Scripture says that when you accept Jesus we cross over from death to life, that’s not talking about the next life that is now. Think about this almost all of the problems we have ,except for natural disasters, come from people who are not following Jesus. If the whole world would follow Jesus our time in these moral bodies would be so much better, Jesus already has the next age covered he dies for all that all will live , but until then we are stuck on the earth and God has provided a way for life to be better. My starting point is 1Tim 2:3-6 God will none parish/ John 12:47 Jesus came to save the world /Acts 3:21 Jesus is the restoration of all things / Phil 2:10-11 Every knee will bow and every tongue will gladly joyfully confess that Jesus is Lord- the very thing that all must do and will do. So these scriptures are my preconceptions they are the telos of God.

What’s the purpose of sending people to the lake of fire? Do you deny that anyone will be sent to the lake of fire? If you do believe people will be thrown into the lake of fire, what’s the purpose of throwing them into it?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Yes Jesus is the only way to life , that’s why he died. But why do you assume that is talking about the next life Matt 7 is talking about this life we live in now. Scripture says that when you accept Jesus we cross over from death to life, that’s not talking about the next life that is now. Think about this almost all of the problems we have ,except for natural disasters, come from people who are not following Jesus. If the whole world would follow Jesus our time in these moral bodies would be so much better, Jesus already has the next age covered he dies for all that all will live , but until then we are stuck on the earth and God has provided a way for life to be better. My starting point is 1Tim 2:3-6 God will none parish/ John 12:47 Jesus came to save the world /Acts 3:21 Jesus is the restoration of all things / Phil 2:10-11 Every knee will bow and every tongue will gladly joyfully confess that Jesus is Lord- the very thing that all must do and will do. So these scriptures are my preconceptions they are the telos of God.

According to Romans 14 every knee shall Ben and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord BEFORE anyone is thrown into the lake of fire, not after. This is why it’s important to pay attention to the details.

“But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God. For it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to Me, And every tongue shall give praise to God.” So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭14‬:‭10‬-‭12‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Everyone will confess that Jesus is Lord on Judgement Day and AFTER they’ve made that profession many will still be thrown into the lake of fire. Matthew 7:21-23 says the same exact thing and so does Matthew 25:31-46.

““Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7‬:‭21‬-‭23‬ NASB

This is an example of what will take place on Judgement Day. They proclaimed Jesus as Lord, they pleaded their case, and they were condemned for their inequities just like Paul said they would in Romans 14. Same thing in Matthew 25.

““But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left. “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’ Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘LORD, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’ “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ Then they themselves also will answer, ‘LORD, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’ Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.””
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭25‬:‭31‬-‭46‬ ‭NASB

Again it’s the same thing. They are standing before Christ, they acknowledge Him as Lord, they pleaded their case, and they were condemned to the lake of fire.

So the argument that every knee will bend and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord means that everyone will be saved is incorrect and those who teach this aren’t paying attention to the details of the passages concerning what will take place on Judgement Day and the order in which these things take place. On Judgement Day bowing to Jesus and confessing that He is Lord will not save anyone. That’s why it’s absolutely IMPERATIVE that we stop teaching people that they will be saved whether they come to Christ in this life or not so that they don’t end up like the false prophets in Matthew 7 or the goats in Matthew 25 both of which proclaimed Jesus as Lord right before being thrown into the lake of fire.

 

[Cerraco]

unless redeemed by Jesus Christ.

Can you answer my question in a more... sensible way? This weird thing you do with quotes isn't helping.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Yes Jesus is the only way to life , that’s why he died. But why do you assume that is talking about the next life Matt 7 is talking about this life we live in now. Scripture says that when you accept Jesus we cross over from death to life, that’s not talking about the next life that is now. Think about this almost all of the problems we have ,except for natural disasters, come from people who are not following Jesus. If the whole world would follow Jesus our time in these moral bodies would be so much better, Jesus already has the next age covered he dies for all that all will live , but until then we are stuck on the earth and God has provided a way for life to be better. My starting point is 1Tim 2:3-6 God will none parish/ John 12:47 Jesus came to save the world /Acts 3:21 Jesus is the restoration of all things / Phil 2:10-11 Every knee will bow and every tongue will gladly joyfully confess that Jesus is Lord- the very thing that all must do and will do. So these scriptures are my preconceptions they are the telos of God.

You quoted John 12:47 as if those who do not come to Christ will not be judged but that ignores what Jesus said in the very next passage.

“If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.”
‭‭John‬ ‭12‬:‭47‬-‭48‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

What Jesus said in verse 47 is that He didn’t come into the world to judge it, He came to save it. His second coming will be to judge the world not His first coming. His first coming was to bring us His ministry of the gospel and to sacrifice Himself for the atonement of our sins. So you can see that in verse 48 His judgment is still to come.

 

[Aaron112]

Can you answer my question in a more... sensible way? This weird thing you do with quotes isn't helping.

Ask a simple question that you have not already asked.

 

[Cerraco]

Ask a simple question that you have not already asked.

I asked you this: "Wouldn't that mean you're posting sinfully as well?" I'm assuming you're saying that you're not because you're saved by Christ, right?

Seriously man, you have a very strange way of typing and I don't think you're even aware of it. You also come off like an extremely adamant priest.
Edit: And before anyone jumps on me, I don't mean those statements in the nastiest ways.

 

[OnceLostButNowFound]

I have a strong feeling that we won't even be here when that happens. Also, I hope Jesus has quite the entrance, because I don't know how people will respond to seeing some guy with a robe and long beard in those times, if it's the far future.

If you've read Revelation, you would know that He will make quite the entrance.

See, a lot of you Christians see good things, and then sin. This black or white stuff. Someone going to hell forever for murder and someone going to hell forever for just being gay or not believing Christ, but didn't do much wrong in life doesn't seem like a balanced way of dealing with things.

It's pretty simple to me dude. All it takes is a little humility and faith. We're not expected to live exactly like Jesus, as He's done that for us already, but we are expected to try to live as close to how He does as we can and repenting every time we mess up.

Also, what is "didn't do much wrong" according to you? Because even a little bit wrong is enough to keep you from going to Heaven.

The one-sided "wEll thAt's jusT how God is!!!" anti-logic doesn't fly with me. That goes back to the having it both ways argument.

Since you seemed so enamored with logic, and bringing up homosexuality, let me ask you: If evolution is true, and if being gay is something you're born with, what "Evolutionary" purpose does having sex with the same sex have? Men can't make babies with other men and women can't make babies with other women. Not without external and unnatural means.

And for the millionth time, God knew exactly what was gonna happen before it happened.

Yes, and that's not a bad thing like you seem to think it is. He gave us free reign and we bungled it all up.

So the solution to women being raped and is just for them to suck it up, deal with it, go through the agony of birthing the child they never ever wanted, then put them up for adoption. Yes, adoption magically fixes all those problems somehow... Even if the birth could kill the woman depending on their health. Yes, I would love to be a woman having to deal with all that because "those are just the rules!" and "that's just how God wants it!" Just... no. God no.

No, we're supposed to be gentle and care for victims of rape and the perpetrator deserves to be punished for his crime against her. That doesn't justify killing an infant that can't speak for itself however.

Oh wait, and then that person has to grow up knowing they were a product of rape. Yeah, awesome, cool.

God chooses some children to be conceived through rape as a means to show how much He loves them and to show the world that they can overcome the world despite where they came from. People who were products of rape are no lesser than anybody else.

That's sort of what I'm talking about... "adoption" can't save that.

Again, that's not abortion in the traditional sense. Most cases of abortion happen because people act irresponsibly with their bodies and use abortion as a quick fix solution. Praise be to God that he bring infants and small children back up into Heaven, but that's not how He wants us to treat our little ones.

Doesn't matter how low it is, it still happens and it's still a problem. The statistics don't erase the reality.

Never said it wasn't a problem. It has been used as an excuse to destroy lives however, that's a reality.

Of course you're gonna say that, you're a Christian.

You're either one or your not. There's no escaping that fact. And I pray that one day you'll recognize that before you lose your chance.

Again, man, again, me mentioning science is not about disproving God. I've said that quite a few times. I said that science disproves these Bible origin stories.

What's the difference?

You've been defending them with empty nothingburger arguments by simply saying, "No, it's all true." and "It's not proven wrong!" with really nothing to back that up against for the fact that it's in the Bible, so therefore it's true because it's in the Bible, so therefore it's true because it's in the Bible, so it must be true!

Because it is true. With every person who "disproves" the Bible, there's been way more stuff that proves it does.

And then you use the argument of how they weren't scrapped or something and that we're talking about them. Okaaay..? How the hell does that make something true, that just means something is culturally relevant/popular, not true. How do you not know for sure that some things are just not allegorical stories? It's even been said that the Bible borrows from Greek Mythology's underworld.

If the Tower of Babel and how everyone's languages got scrambled up is any indication, it's the opposite. The reason why other "Religions" exist is because for many people, the story behind the creation of the world was lost through generations worth of people playing telephone.

Yes.

People will always use things for the wrong reasons, technology or not. In the Wild West/American Frontier times, there were laws where you could shoot someone if you felt threatened, which led to people abusing that. In the medieval times, simply walking around from town to town looking for work would be punishable by death. People were idiots then, people are idiots now.

I agree. People were sinners then, and people are sinners now.

And this is fine, but when I mention how - not just science alone - but by the discoveries made as well, all of these things scream that the Earth is not 6000 years old. Why don't these findings lead to the Earth being as old as the Bible says? I guess the remains of archaic humans, dinosaurs and civilizations existing long before 6000 years were just pranksters, right? You can't just pin everything on "to make us move farther from God" as your ultimate answer for every single thing.

Just one of many pieces of evidence against the earth being millions of years old.

If you're talking about technology corrupting us, it won't be American falling, it'll be everyone. Yes, I've heard of that mechanism. The fall of the Roman Empire was due to many, many factors. You're saying each and every single one of them were because of denying God? A lot of those reasons were from violent attacks from other empires.

Sin is falling short of God's standards, and willful sin is denying and turning from God. So yes, when you get right down to it, that is how the Roman Empire fell. It wasn't immediate, and God allowed it to thrive as long as it did, but it did eventually fall.

Edit: I will admit - and I don't know if technology is solely to blame for this one - but modern music is usually trash. Things between the 50s to the 80s were the golden age in my opinion. Now, it's just auto-tune rushed out garbage.

I personally prefer 90's and early 2000's music, as well as a bunch of classic rock. Kinda agree music stinks now.

Some atheists, some of Jewish people, a couple of gay people, some Muslims, and they all seem to have one thing in common: that God is not a d-bag Sunday school teacher. See the Christian God is this black or white, do or die, perfection or hell deity with no in-between. However, the religious-neutral/NDE version of God seems to be infinitely more fair than that. He doesn't care what orientation or religion you are, he cares about more than that.

See, if you had a son that was gay, but was the nicest person ever and would always put others before him, would you still hate him just because he was gay? Would you put his entire value as a person on his orientation, call it a sin, and then just assume he goes straight to hell? You'd think a loving God that's smarter than us would be above that garbage.

So, what I'm getting here is that you rather God be whatever you want Him to be? Not as who He really is? Because the real God is plenty fair. He understands our situation and cares for us far more than we can ever know.

You want there to be a God, and yet when He comes and shows you who He is, you reject Him. You don't want to get to know Him, you don't want to listen to people who answer your questions. And by the sounds of things, you don't do the footwork to find out why so many people insist that everything in the Bible is true despite the massive opposition against it or why we believe things like evolution and the old-earth theory are wrong. You just talk down to us as well as insult the one who made everything. Multiple times. And on top of all that, you stick around here and keep saying the same thing over and over again. What are you trying to prove here? Because all you're doing is either riling people up or encouraging people to win you over to Jesus.

I don't know what else to tell you. If you're not willing to listen, than there's nothing else for it.

All I can say is that Jesus loves you, and it's not too late for you to change your mind. What I can't say is how much longer you have to make that decision. None of us are guaranteed tomorrow.

 

[Cerraco]

If you've read Revelation, you would know that He will make quite the entrance.

I don't doubt this, but I do doubt we'll be there to see it.

It's pretty simple to me dude. All it takes is a little humility and faith. We're not expected to live exactly like Jesus, as He's done that for us already, but we are expected to try to live as close to how He does as we can and repenting every time we mess up.

Also, what is "didn't do much wrong" according to you? Because even a little bit wrong is enough to keep you from going to Heaven.

By "didn't do much wrong", I mean someone who lived a standard life - lived a morally-balanced life, or at least tried to. Christians have the mindset of people going to hell for not acknowledging the gift Christ gave to us. There is still the problem of those raised under different religions, and going to hell for that is absolutely stupid. This is what God set up, he gave billions of people free will, so what did he expect?

Since you seemed so enamored with logic, and bringing up homosexuality, let me ask you: If evolution is true, and if being gay is something you're born with, what "Evolutionary" purpose does having sex with the same sex have? Men can't make babies with other men and women can't make babies with other women. Not without external and unnatural means.

"Enamored" with logic? It's better than being against it, life is gonna be awkward when you call a spade a charcoal clown. Men being with men serves no evolutionary purpose, what is your point? A fraction of the world is gay, so it's not like the human race is doomed. What is your point here? Why is this such a bad sin anyway? Because God "just doesn't like it"? Yes, you did say that God made men to be with women, but is there an objective harm to being gay? I don't mean a perverted person that hurts others, I just mean someone who lives a normal life but is a man with a man, or woman with a woman.

Yes, and that's not a bad thing like you seem to think it is. He gave us free reign and we bungled it all up.

I am baffled that you don't see the issue here. You said it yourself, God knows the future. When he birthed Hitler, he knew what Hitler was gonna do, didn't like that, but still created him. Doesn't this mean he was set up from the start to go to Hell..? I've made this simple point so many times and people still don't get it somehow.

No, we're supposed to be gentle and care for victims of rape and the perpetrator deserves to be punished for his crime against her. That doesn't justify killing an infant that can't speak for itself however.

Pro-abortionists take no pride in killing babies, but there is still a cost to women having to carry babies they never asked for. What if the woman has diseases that carry to the baby? This is what I mean by the world not being black or white. There is always extra details to things.

God chooses some children to be conceived through rape as a means to show how much He loves them and to show the world that they can overcome the world despite where they came from. People who were products of rape are no lesser than anybody else.

Would you say this to underage victims of rape and incest?

Again, that's not abortion in the traditional sense. Most cases of abortion happen because people act irresponsibly with their bodies and use abortion as a quick fix solution. Praise be to God that he bring infants and small children back up into Heaven, but that's not how He wants us to treat our little ones.

Never said it wasn't a problem. It has been used as an excuse to destroy lives however, that's a reality.

I'm not a fan of abortion either, but if rape and incest weren't such big issues in the world, I'd jump to your side immediately.

You're either one or your not. There's no escaping that fact. And I pray that one day you'll recognize that before you lose your chance.

Lose my chance to become a Christian, throw logic to the side and believe these goofy stories? I asked if I had to believe that stuff to be a Christian and you said yes.

Evolution view: Life came from tiny organisms adapting through millions to billions of years to become what they are now, something that is proven and still goes on today.
Christian view: God put two white people in the jungle without sunscreen, knew what they were gonna do before they did it, created them anyway. God decided to put a forbidden tree right by them, then a talking snake came by and tricked Eve, then Adam into eating something they weren't supposed to. Despite the snake being the true culprit, God punished the couple, then punished the rest of humanity because of them.

Which one should I believe? Hmmmm.

What's the difference?

Science disproves the Earth being 6,000 years old, but it doesn't mean God doesn't exist. God still could have created everything in a theistic evolutionary sense.

Because it is true. With every person who "disproves" the Bible, there's been way more stuff that proves it does.

That is the most ridiculous thing I've ever read in my life.

"We're right, and the world is wrong." - Christians
"We're right, and the world is wrong." - Muslims
"We're right, and the world is wrong." - Jewish
"We're right, and the world is wrong." - Mormons

See the pattern?

If the Tower of Babel and how everyone's languages got scrambled up is any indication, it's the opposite. The reason why other "Religions" exist is because for many people, the story behind the creation of the world was lost through generations worth of people playing telephone.

And Christianity is immune to that? What about the Bible being re-translated and re-edited over and over and over? Can't things get lost in translation.

Just one of many pieces of evidence against the earth being millions of years old.

I'm sorry, this isn't exactly the most damning video out there... Tell you what, though, I'll roll with it for now. So the Noah's Ark flood has dating checks leading to 4,000 years ago? Where is this massive ark? You do know there are more ways to check the age of things. That still doesn't explain the countless discoveries of archaic humans, fossils, etc. that scream how old the Earth really is. I ask again, did a prankster bury all this stuff? Again, the human population would not be what it is now in just 6,000 years.

We can also check the dating on rocks from other planets, but mostly the moon.

Sin is falling short of God's standards, and willful sin is denying and turning from God. So yes, when you get right down to it, that is how the Roman Empire fell. It wasn't immediate, and God allowed it to thrive as long as it did, but it did eventually fall.

The world is pretty messed up now, why not flood it again? God had no problem doing that the first time. Is it because the population is too high?

So, what I'm getting here is that you rather God be whatever you want Him to be? Not as who He really is? Because the real God is plenty fair. He understands our situation and cares for us far more than we can ever know.

Given the horrific lives some people have, and are atheists because of that, and that - according to this religion - are going straight to hell just for not believing, the quote says otherwise. A person is more than what they believe. Just because someone believes in Christ doesn't automatically make them a good person that deserves heaven.

You want there to be a God, and yet when He comes and shows you who He is, you reject Him. You don't want to get to know Him, you don't want to listen to people who answer your questions. And by the sounds of things, you don't do the footwork to find out why so many people insist that everything in the Bible is true despite the massive opposition against it or why we believe things like evolution and the old-earth theory are wrong. You just talk down to us as well as insult the one who made everything. Multiple times. And on top of all that, you stick around here and keep saying the same thing over and over again. What are you trying to prove here? Because all you're doing is either riling people up or encouraging people to win you over to Jesus.

You're criticizing my points but you don't see the issues of any other posts, because you guys have the same religious beliefs. We are all trapped on this world until we die, so this whole "God showing himself" topic is a strange one. If I was bashing the religion entirely, I would not have admitted to believing in Christ, or at least his existence. I also would also not have mentioned that I believe some of the Bible. You're acting like I'm trying to be this internet bully but I've been explaining things clearly. I say the same things over and over again because a lot of my points go unanswered or untouched, or still hold up to what others keep repeating. A few people here just keep quoting the Bible with no other approach to their arguments.

I don't know what else to tell you. If you're not willing to listen, than there's nothing else for it.

I could say the exact same thing.

All I can say is that Jesus loves you, and it's not too late for you to change your mind. What I can't say is how much longer you have to make that decision. None of us are guaranteed tomorrow.

I told you that believing in God alone was not a problem, it was just believing in him through this 100% Bible lens. If I died right now, would I go straight to heaven because I do believing in Christ and his sacrifice, or straight to hell because I didn't believe an entire ancient book?

 

[OnceLostButNowFound]

I don't doubt this, but I do doubt we'll be there to see it.

Maybe not on this earth. But there are two other places we'll see it.

By "didn't do much wrong", I mean someone who lived a standard life - lived a morally-balanced life, or at least tried to.

That's all God askes of us. To try to live a life that pleases Him. We aren't able to do it perfectly due to our sin nature, but Jesus' sacrifice makes up for that. Even then, even if a person didn't live a morally balanced life and chose to repent and accept Jesus, than he is saved. And likewise, a person who has done a bunch of "good" in his life but refused to repent of the wrongs he commited won't be.

That's the beauty of the Gospel. It defies wordly logic and raises people up who many would consider trash, and humbles the strong, smart, and proud.

Christians have the mindset of people going to hell for not acknowledging the gift Christ gave to us. There is still the problem of those raised under different religions, and going to hell for that is absolutely stupid. This is what God set up, he gave billions of people free will, so what did he expect?

We live in a world where the Gospel is being spread all over thanks to the internet and smartphones. Even if someone was raised under a different religion, that doesn't mean they can't change their mind upon hearing the truth. I speak as a former athiest/agnostic who was raised by parents who believed in "God" from a worldly perspective.

"Enamored" with logic?

I meant enamored with "logic". Sorry. God is a very logical being. We're the illogical ones. And I include myself in that category.

It's better than being against it, life is gonna be awkward when you call a spade a charcoal clown. Men being with men serves no evolutionary purpose, what is your point? A fraction of the world is gay, so it's not like the human race is doomed. What is your point here? Why is this such a bad sin anyway? Because God "just doesn't like it"? Yes, you did say that God made men to be with women, but is there an objective harm to being gay? I don't mean a perverted person that hurts others, I just mean someone who lives a normal life but is a man with a man, or woman with a woman.

Well based on how evolution is based on treating things with an "objective" sense, wouldn't these same people be "objectively" useless and therefore be culled to ensure the survival of the species? Now you and I both know that's ridiculous.

Homosexuality is a sin because it goes against God's design for man and woman. There's no ifs and or buts about it. And the only reason why so many people call themselves "gay" is that they were fed lies about themselves. We're all meant to be joined with the opposite sex or live a single life. Both are gifts from God.

We are seeing the damage of living in a world that celebrates that sort of lifestyle. Including men in drag going to children's libraries and teaching them how to twerk, filling book stores with children's books teaching about gender ideology and pushing them towards getting hormone shots and puberty blockers.

A world that only pushes for the traditional family unit has been proven to be successful time and time again.

I am baffled that you don't see the issue here. You said it yourself, God knows the future. When he birthed Hitler, he knew what Hitler was gonna do, didn't like that, but still created him. Doesn't this mean he was set up from the start to go to Hell..? I've made this simple point so many times and people still don't get it somehow.

Hitler still had the choice not to do what he did. And he chose poorly. You seem to operate under the assumption that things will only ever happen one way with God, when that couldn't be further from the truth. Hitler may have pursued world peace instead, but that won't change God's overall plan for our need for a savior. Everything will ultimately end in one way.

And I see what your "issue" is. If God knew what was going to happen, why didn't He stop it? Why doesn't He just make the perfect utopia He's going to give us right now? Why didn't He just make us all automatons who can only do good? And the answer to all that is that God is allowed to do whatever He wants. We can argue with Him all we want, but He does as He pleases. And I trust Him because He has shown me He knows what He's doing and will ultimately work all things for good. Without living a life of sin and expressing hatred toward Him, I would've never known the depths of His love for me.

Pro-abortionists take no pride in killing babies, but there is still a cost to women having to carry babies they never asked for.

Just like there's a cost to killing babies.

What if the woman has diseases that carry to the baby? This is what I mean by the world not being black or white. There is always extra details to things.

We would do what we can to ensure the baby lives a comfortable life until his or her time comes. However short it may be. We're called to care for our infants, not throw them away.

Would you say this to underage victims of rape and incest?

If they asked me, then I would tell them the truth. But ultimately that's their decision to make and that I wouldn't condemn them for their choice. There's always repentance if they end up regretting their choice.

I won't condemn women who choose abortion. They are just as much victims of a world that celebrates that sort of thing. Just like you and I are victims of a world that told us that we aren't valuable as men due to not having women in our lives.

I'm not a fan of abortion either, but if rape and incest weren't such big issues in the world, I'd jump to your side immediately.

There's nothing stopping you from doing so.

Lose my chance to become a Christian, throw logic to the side and believe these goofy stories? I asked if I had to believe that stuff to be a Christian and you said yes.

Evolution view: Life came from tiny organisms adapting through millions to billions of years to become what they are now, something that is proven and still goes on today.
Christian view: God put two white people in the jungle without sunscreen, knew what they were gonna do before they did it, created them anyway. God decided to put a forbidden tree right by them, then a talking snake came by and tricked Eve, then Adam into eating something they weren't supposed to. Despite the snake being the true culprit, God punished the couple, then punished the rest of humanity because of them.

Which one should I believe? Hmmmm.

A few holes in your interpretation. Adam and Eve were never proven to be white.

God told Adam very explicitly not to eat from the tree. And even after the snake told Eve to eat from it, she ultimately made the final decision to do so. As with Adam making the choice to go along with her.

The snake himself was punished.

Humanity itself wasn't punished by God. We inherited Adam's sin nature, which he received from the fruit. The only punishment Adam and Eve received was being cast out of the garden. And even then, God gave them clothes and watched over them for the rest of their lives and blessed them with a large family.

Science disproves the Earth being 6,000 years old, but it doesn't mean God doesn't exist. God still could have created everything in a theistic evolutionary sense.

And yet He didn't.

That is the most ridiculous thing I've ever read in my life.

"We're right, and the world is wrong." - Christians
"We're right, and the world is wrong." - Muslims
"We're right, and the world is wrong." - Jewish
"We're right, and the world is wrong." - Mormons

See the pattern?

The difference being we're the ones who're actually right and have visible proof to back it up.

And Christianity is immune to that? What about the Bible being re-translated and re-edited over and over and over? Can't things get lost in translation.

Scripture is God breathed and has been carefully looked over throughout the centuries. Some things about the Bible are harder to understand than others, but God wouldn't allow anyone to mess with the Bible during its initial creation.

And Bible scholars and translators always refer to the original Greek and Hebrew for accuracy.

There are a lot of versions of the Bible that aren't as accurate and manipulated by those with selfish interests. Something we call out fairly regularly. So it's important that you be discerning when researching which versions of the Bible you want to read.

I'm sorry, this isn't exactly the most damning video out there... Tell you what, though, I'll roll with it for now. So the Noah's Ark flood has dating checks leading to 4,000 years ago? Where is this massive ark?

I don't know. I'd like to think it might be at the bottom of the sea. Perhaps that's also where the remains of Leviathan are as well. We've only explored 5% of the ocean after all.

You do know there are more ways to check the age of things. That still doesn't explain the countless discoveries of archaic humans, fossils, etc. that scream how old the Earth really is. I ask again, did a prankster bury all this stuff? Again, the human population would not be what it is now in just 6,000 years.

What makes you think those humans and fossils aren't 6,000 years old? Just because they exist, doesn't disprove that either.

We can also check the dating on rocks from other planets, but mostly the moon.

Based on what I know and have been shown, the current aging systems we have are flawed and pushed by people who want to enforce a narrative. The fact is, most discoveries point to a world flooding, which connects everything to the Bible.

The world is pretty messed up now, why not flood it again? God had no problem doing that the first time. Is it because the population is too high?

God said He wouldn't flood it again. It's in the Bible.

I have to ask how much you've actually read the Bible. Because a lot of the questions and assumptions you've made tell me you've only gave it a cursory glance. You don't fully understand the Bible by reading it once through within a short period or cherry picking verses. It takes a lifetime to even come close to fully grasping it. And even then, the overall message is clear: God created everything just a few thousand years ago, He sent his Son to die for our sins, and said son was resurrected three days later to prove He is the son of God and that through Him leads to salvation.

Given the horrific lives some people have, and are atheists because of that, and that - according to this religion - are going straight to hell just for not believing, the quote says otherwise. A person is more than what they believe.

You're right. A person is a creation made in God's image.. And is precious to Him. Hence why He wants to save all of us.

Just because someone believes in Christ doesn't automatically make them a good person that deserves heaven.

Again, you're right. We're still sinners regardless of believing in Christ or not. No one is a good person apart from Him. I've already brought this up multiple times. There are indeed many Christians who believe to be "good people", but that couldn't be further from the truth.

You're criticizing my points but you don't see the issues of any other posts, because you guys have the same religious beliefs. We are all trapped on this world until we die, so this whole "God showing himself" topic is a strange one. If I was bashing the religion entirely, I would not have admitted to believing in Christ, or at least his existence.

And yet, you don't believe He's the Son of God and did what He did.

I also would also not have mentioned that I believe some of the Bible. You're acting like I'm trying to be this internet bully but I've been explaining things clearly. I say the same things over and over again because a lot of my points go unanswered or untouched, or still hold up to what others keep repeating. A few people here just keep quoting the Bible with no other approach to their arguments.

You've been hostile in a lot of your answers as well and created strawmans throughout your arguments like your interpretation of Genesis mentioned above. Meanwhile, I've just been telling you the truth the best I can. I haven't been perfect about it and may have come off as condescending, and I apologize for that if that's the case. But that doesn't disprove what the Bible says.

I could say the exact same thing.

I have been listening. And I understand where you're coming from. A few years ago, I might've agreed with you full heartedly. But now, I don't.

I told you that believing in God alone was not a problem, it was just believing in him through this 100% Bible lens. If I died right now, would I go straight to heaven because I do believing in Christ and his sacrifice,

Yes.

or straight to hell because I didn't believe an entire ancient book?

If you were like the thief on the cross next to Jesus and asked Him to save you before you died, than He would save you. It wouldn't matter that point if you fully agreed or not. By surrendering to Jesus, you've shown that you're willing to trust Him.

The fact of the matter is though, most people aren't going to be in that kind of position. Repenting to and accepting Jesus and believing the Bible in its entirety come hand in hand. Once I was saved, everything within the Bible started to make sense, and my world gradually changed because of it. I became more and more open to what it actually said and grew to believe ALL of it.

You don't have to fully understand the Bible to be saved. But through being saved and allowing God to work through you, you will in time understand and be willing to agree with it in its entirety. Not because you have to do it to be saved, but because you want to out of love for the one who saved you and a desire to help save others.

If I haven't been clear about this in my previous posts, then I apologize again. As you can see, I'm still a work in progress.

 

[Cerraco]

Maybe not on this earth. But there are two other places we'll see it.

You know what? I really hope so.

That's all God askes of us. To try to live a life that pleases Him. We aren't able to do it perfectly due to our sin nature, but Jesus' sacrifice makes up for that. Even then, even if a person didn't live a morally balanced life and chose to repent and accept Jesus, than he is saved. And likewise, a person who has done a bunch of "good" in his life but refused to repent of the wrongs he commited won't be.

And you don't see the problem there? Does it sound fair that someone who's killed 5 people, but converted to Christianity is getting an easy ticket to paradise while someone who's done nothing near anything that horrible is gonna burn forever because his thought process didn't accept Christ. See, if the rules are focused on "just believe, and you're golden!", then people can freely do horrible things if they still believe in Christ. I can't imagine God is that stupid and petty that he works completely off that non-logic.

That's the beauty of the Gospel. It defies wordly logic and raises people up who many would consider trash, and humbles the strong, smart, and proud.

Where? On Earth? In heaven?

We live in a world where the Gospel is being spread all over thanks to the internet and smartphones. Even if someone was raised under a different religion, that doesn't mean they can't change their mind upon hearing the truth. I speak as a former athiest/agnostic who was raised by parents who believed in "God" from a worldly perspective.

I was also raised by parents that were not religious, but seem to believe in God and Christ. As I got older and saw the world for what it really was, my beliefs vanished.

Well based on how evolution is based on treating things with an "objective" sense, wouldn't these same people be "objectively" useless and therefore be culled to ensure the survival of the species? Now you and I both know that's ridiculous.

Dude what are you talking about? Where is this culling nonsense coming from? When I talk about evolution, I'm not talking about who gets to bone who/who has babies, I'm talking about how genetics and form change, through DNA and whatnot.

Homosexuality is a sin because it goes against God's design for man and woman. There's no ifs and or buts about it. And the only reason why so many people call themselves "gay" is that they were fed lies about themselves. We're all meant to be joined with the opposite sex or live a single life. Both are gifts from God.

Okay, so it's a sin because it doesn't fit God's plan for a man and a woman. Big god damn deal, that still doesn't make the whole person. Being sent to hell just for sexual orientation is one of the stupidest god damn things I've ever heard in my life. You Christians see a gay person, therefore you see someone that's "hell-bound". I just see another person. Just arguing this point is giving me diabetes.

We are seeing the damage of living in a world that celebrates that sort of lifestyle. Including men in drag going to children's libraries and teaching them how to twerk, filling book stores with children's books teaching about gender ideology and pushing them towards getting hormone shots and puberty blockers.

A world that only pushes for the traditional family unit has been proven to be successful time and time again.

Be it gay, straight, bi, trans, whatever, the whole drag stuff in children's schools, hormone shots and puberty blockers are awful, but I think I'd rather live in a world where these people are at least treated like humans rather than gay bashing them, causing physical harm to them or outright killing them. There are 8 billion people in the world, some of them being gay is not gonna stop the world from turning. Also, not every LBGTQ person agrees with the things you mentioned either.

I had this conversation with previous posters in this thread, ones that really ran from a lot of topics I brought up and just responded when the conversation was on easy mode for them. Do you know what it's like to be a gay/bi/etc. person? To be mocked, ridiculed and confused for being different? Oh yeah, let's tell them they're going to hell too, yeah! That'll make 'em feel good! That'll help 'em out! That's not painfully idiotic at all! And now these people have to do the extra work of being religious and praying only for a chance to suddenly not be gay anymore otherwise they suffer eternally for it! Oh boy, your God is looking like a real good guy right about now!!

I can't imagine being in hell forever because I was three prayers away from having my sexual orientation changed. What a way to go, to have your entire soul worth what you were attracted to. Way to go, God! Way to go, Bible! No wonder so many atheists exist.

Hitler still had the choice not to do what he did. And he chose poorly. You seem to operate under the assumption that things will only ever happen one way with God, when that couldn't be further from the truth. Hitler may have pursued world peace instead, but that won't change God's overall plan for our need for a savior. Everything will ultimately end in one way.

Here comes the logical fallacy again. This whole "Hitler had a choice" crap doesn't work if God knows the ending. If God can see multiple timelines and choices, then this could work. If not, your argument explodes into nothingness here.

And I see what your "issue" is. If God knew what was going to happen, why didn't He stop it? Why doesn't He just make the perfect utopia He's going to give us right now? Why didn't He just make us all automatons who can only do good? And the answer to all that is that God is allowed to do whatever He wants. We can argue with Him all we want, but He does as He pleases. And I trust Him because He has shown me He knows what He's doing and will ultimately work all things for good. Without living a life of sin and expressing hatred toward Him, I would've never known the depths of His love for me.

If I was God, I would not have my creations... "h3LL-bOunD" because they came out differently than what I wanted, but were still morally balanced. A few men like other men? Okay, whatever. Some of them like both sexes? Better get them ready for an eternity of pain, except not at all. If I'm gonna be this forgiving, loving god, I should be smart enough to see past this stupid garbage. I don't care what your hurr durr Bible says. All 8 billion of us are not gonna be followers of Christ, God should know this, he was the one who gave us free will. God can read our minds, so he's gonna know who truly believes and who pretends to believe just to get into heaven.

Sometimes you Christians make your God look like a damn monster, and you have no idea you're even doing it. See man, the surrounding reality is the one we know, the one we have to live in. The stories of the Bible do not seem to always conform to that, so can you truly blame people for no believing it?

Just like there's a cost to killing babies.

Well aware...

We would do what we can to ensure the baby lives a comfortable life until his or her time comes. However short it may be. We're called to care for our infants, not throw them away.

Nope. Doesn't always work like that. Some sicknesses are nothing but pain and death, no "comfortable life" about that, and a lot of people live long lives exactly like that. Can't blame them for being atheists either.

There's nothing stopping you from doing so.

I've explained my case for why that won't happen.

A few holes in your interpretation. Adam and Eve were never proven to be white.

God told Adam very explicitly not to eat from the tree. And even after the snake told Eve to eat from it, she ultimately made the final decision to do so. As with Adam making the choice to go along with her.

I was being facetious with the "white" thing. "Now Adam, see that tree right there? That I put in front of you that can be reached at any time? Don't touch that tree, I don't want you eating from it, despite the fact I put it within reach." Now, the magical talking snake part which... totally definitely happened in real life... how come we don't have talking animals like that nowadays? Funny how this wacky stuff happens in the Bible but not as much in real life. Hmmmmm. The devil is still out there, right?

Humanity itself wasn't punished by God. We inherited Adam's sin nature, which he received from the fruit. The only punishment Adam and Eve received was being cast out of the garden. And even then, God gave them clothes and watched over them for the rest of their lives and blessed them with a large family.

God made Lucifer, God made that tree, God made humanity, God made the world, God knows the future. So... God would be the overarching reason sin exists, whether it's intentional or not.

And yet He didn't.

- a Christian

The difference being we're the ones who're actually right and have visible proof to back it up.

Hey, you know what else has infinitely more visible proof to back it up. I'll give you a hint, it rhymes with blatheism.

Scripture is God breathed and has been carefully looked over throughout the centuries. Some things about the Bible are harder to understand than others, but God wouldn't allow anyone to mess with the Bible during its initial creation.

And Bible scholars and translators always refer to the original Greek and Hebrew for accuracy.

You know how you mention the negatives of people being gay? You know what else has negatives? Christianity. You guys have corrupt priests, people who justify murders by using religion, etc. Regardless of beliefs, the sinning nature is there, and being a Christian does not automatically make a person better.

I don't know. I'd like to think it might be at the bottom of the sea. Perhaps that's also where the remains of Leviathan are as well. We've only explored 5% of the ocean after all.

I'd like to think at least some of these things would be in a museum or something. And I'm not using that lone statement as proof of anything, but these are gravely important biblical things that have no physical presence for some reason.

What makes you think those humans and fossils aren't 6,000 years old? Just because they exist, doesn't disprove that either.

Because we can study what happens to things when they get X old, Y old, study aging patterns and using multiple types of atomic readings that can help prove the date of something. You said there was more proof for the Bible's origin stories than that of science. If that's the case, why does the internet always tell me 4 billion years when I type "age of earth"? It's not just the Earth we study, but also the rest of the universe. We can also measure the fusion of stars and the heat they give off, which is how we know the age of the Sun, and when it will eventually explode. Like I said, it's not just Earth that can have age checks.

Based on what I know and have been shown, the current aging systems we have are flawed and pushed by people who want to enforce a narrative. The fact is, most discoveries point to a world flooding, which connects everything to the Bible.

Oh really? What's this then? If these biblical facts are so evident? Why is Wikipedia not mentioning things in that way? Why is everything going all in on the universe being billions of years old? Is that just an evil plot to keep us from God? What about those archaic humans and caveman discoveries? How the sweet hell are we gonna have 8 billion people on the planet in just 6,000 years dude? Why do we have shared DNA with monkeys but not so many other animals? Just because?

God said He wouldn't flood it again. It's in the Bible.

How noble of him.

I have to ask how much you've actually read the Bible. Because a lot of the questions and assumptions you've made tell me you've only gave it a cursory glance. You don't fully understand the Bible by reading it once through within a short period or cherry picking verses. It takes a lifetime to even come close to fully grasping it. And even then, the overall message is clear: God created everything just a few thousand years ago, He sent his Son to die for our sins, and said son was resurrected three days later to prove He is the son of God and that through Him leads to salvation.

I read both versions quite a long time ago, and most of it left me horrified. How do you know for sure some stories aren't allegorical? No matter what you think of the Bible, these facts stay the same: the book was written by sinning, flawed humans.

Again, you're right. We're still sinners regardless of believing in Christ or not. No one is a good person apart from Him. I've already brought this up multiple times. There are indeed many Christians who believe to be "good people", but that couldn't be further from the truth.

And there are atheists that have helped people, and have good hearts, but may not believe in Christ. Still, no heaven for them. Good to know nasty Christians have a better chance at paradise than good-hearted atheism, because God is just so loving and fair.

And yet, you don't believe He's the Son of God and did what He did.

Yes I did... at the very least, I believed in his sacrifice, or at least what it represented. God or no God, I still respect Jesus deeply for going through all that. Even atheist scholars agree that Jesus existed.

You've been hostile in a lot of your answers as well and created strawmans throughout your arguments like your interpretation of Genesis mentioned above. Meanwhile, I've just been telling you the truth the best I can. I haven't been perfect about it and may have come off as condescending, and I apologize for that if that's the case. But that doesn't disprove what the Bible says.

I get furious during certain points, especially ones about gay people being hell-bound, because I feel that devalues them, and I can't stand that, because I can't see a person in that way. Me simply being straight and believing in Christ doesn't automatically make me better than someone. As for the strawmen, I'm assuming you're talking about when I use theoretical people for examples.

Yes.

Okay, so believing is totally getting me up there. Good to know. How much of morality is played into the equation? Because I wouldn't have paradise if I killed or raped someone.

If you were like the thief on the cross next to Jesus and asked Him to save you before you died, than He would save you. It wouldn't matter that point if you fully agreed or not. By surrendering to Jesus, you've shown that you're willing to trust Him.

Did Jesus die for everyone? Or just the people who will believe him..?