The "God's Plan" Illusion

[OnceLostButNowFound]

Wouldn't I have to believe things in the Bible that were pretty much proven wrong? Do I have to believe in Adam and Eve and all that..?

Yes. And none of those things have been proven wrong. They've all stood the test of time, otherwise, they would've been scrapped and forgotten about. And you and I wouldn't be talking about this right now.

It's the world that's wrong. A world that's doing everything it can to become independent from God and worship itself. A ploy by Satan to drag down as many people with him as he can before Jesus one day returns, set things right, and condemn him and his followers into the lake of fire for all eternity.

I'm sorry man, I just don't understand this. You Christians say that God created the world to spread his love or whatever, but knew how broken the world would be but created it anyway? I know I've said this a thousand times, but no matter how hard I try, I can't see the point in all that. As disgusting as the world is, the dumb people around me, its apparent flaws, its horrible stupid made up norms - these are things I know exist. As for God and heaven, I do not know they exist, I've never seen them, and they do not conform to world's laws of reality. NDE stories are the closest we have to knowing of the afterlife.

Perhaps you're trying to rely on your own power rather than inviting God in and trusting that He will help you?

This is not bad advice in the slightest, but it's very likely I will give up on the whole finding a woman thing. I'm sure there are women on this forum reading my posts right now thinking, "Yikes, I'm glad I'm not hooked up with that guy." Like I said, every single time I'm near a woman I'm interested in, something embarrassing happens at that very moment. I swear to you, I'm not exaggerating this. Is that God keeping this stuff away from me? Maybe that's the universe going, "It's best that you don't have this." If something bad happens enough times, you instinctively avoid it.

That's your insecurities flaring up. I should know as I've been the same. A woman wants a confident man who's okay with himself and is willing to approach her and treat her like a human being. You don't need to be perfect, but if you give off any indication that you'll place her on a pedestal, it's potentially going to scare her away. Because deep down, she knows she can't be your everything. She's way too flawed to do that.

And if she think she can and wants you to treat her like she's God, then she's a very dangerous woman to be with and you shouldn't have anything to do with her.

Looks seem to be the biggest factor, at least for the people I've known.

For divorces?

You said something earlier about how my sense of logic was sin, and I'm assuming you meant the specific parts where I don't believe in the Bible. I don't know what you're talking about with the child sacrifice thing.

That's what I meant, yes. I'm trying my best to help you understand, so forgive me if I've misspoken a few times.

And by child sacrifice, I'm talking about abortion. As well as how we're glorifying putting puberty blockers and hormone injections into young children to push the transgender narrative.

Back in the Old Testament, we've had examples of societies like the Moabites who would place their infants on the hands of scalding hot statues and bang their drums as hard as they can to muffle out their screams. All to please a fake deity.

And here we are now, aborting and mutilating children to please the self. To justify our indulgence in sexual sin and please the deity known as "Self".

I think about this all the time. I wonder how Joan of Arc could have done what she did and the visions she saw. I wonder how the moon always perfectly covers the Sun during a solar eclipse. A pure atheist would say something like we "got lucky". As for the all inventions and technology you mentioned, this is because people leaned on pure logic and science. Did God really expect every single human to believe in him? Is that what he wants? If we lived in a world with little to no science and just went all in on God, humanity would not have gone as far as it has.

As I said before, Science is a tool given to us by God. They're not mutually exclusive.

Neither is logic or faith for that matter. Logic can't 100% predict the future, so we rely on faith based on what we know. People had faith that what they're making could revolutionize in the world. Whether it be their faith in God working things out, or faith in themselves.

I was something the world didn't care for, I didn't need to be made, and I'm only here because two people humped.

And you have a lot of faith in this statement, I'm sure. But again, that could not be further from the truth.

It's that kind of thinking that will keep you in bondage and drag you into Hell. The idea that you're someone worthless and unlovable. Satan wants you think think that way.

Jesus however, sees you as valuable, loveable, and worth saving. He didn't just die for believers. He died for you too. Then He came back from the dead showing that death had no hold over Him, and neither does it have a hold on those who accept Him as their Lord and Savior.

 

[BNR32FAN]

All I do is most likely the same thing you do, because I don’t speak Greek, is I read and watch lectures from people who are smarter than me and I see what matches up with the nature and character of God and those who do not I file away as someone who didn’t understand God and are still learning. I understand God as Jesus taught, as a loving Father in whom there is no darkness, a Father who loves his creation and who would not create anything that did not serve his ultimate purpose of having a creation that worships him out of free will love . Your view of God causes you to be ok with ECT I am not.

Actually I’m undecided on the topic of eternal torment or annihilationism because there seems to be evidence supporting both ideas. You don’t have to be able to read Greek to read the early church writings because they are translated to English. Listening to lectures can be a bad thing because you have seminaries for every denomination under the sun who all disagree with each other, so just because someone has a degree in theology doesn’t mean they’re right or that they even know what they’re talking about. In most cases they know what they’ve been taught by their particular denomination’s seminary school. If there one indisputable fact we can learn from all the theologians who hold a doctorate in theology, it’s that it doesn’t amount to a hill of beans when it comes to discerning truth from scripture. I’m sure you disagree with Dr James White’s theology, or Dr. RC Sproul’s theology and probably countless others that I could list. It’s true that God’s characterized as a kind and patient loving Father in the scriptures, it’s also true that He’s characterized as a firm hand against those who reject Him. Your statement about what you think a loving Father would do doesn’t line up with what scripture tells us that He will do to those who continue to reject Him. Those passages are just as relevant and just as much the word of God as the passages that convey His loving kindness and patience. Whether I’m ok with what God chooses to do whatever that might be is irrelevant, He’s going to do what He said He would do regardless of whether you or I agree with it or not. I am confident that whatever He has decided, He decided for a good reason that I probably don’t know anything about. So all I can do is trust in His loving nature and trust that He has a perfectly good reason for what He has decided to do.

 

[BNR32FAN]

First off what is your definition of eternal? Mine is that eternal means no beginning and no end. Only God is eternal all else is creation and cannot be eternal. What Gods creation is is never ending life we as Gods creation are never ending we are not eternal. If you look at how Aion and Aionios is used , and you translate as age or pertaining to the age , every scripture makes sense no need to make it say world or anything else.

From my studies on the words aion and aionios the noun form of the word aion can refer to something that is not eternal like an age but the adjective form aionios is always used in reference to things that are eternal. Now sometimes they might refer to something that has no beginning or end, and sometimes they refer to things that have no end but did have a beginning. That’s what I’ve observed in my studies on the usage of these two words in the scriptures. For example aionios in relation to God’s reign, His power, and His glory is without beginning or end but aionios in relation to the suffering we receive in the lake of fire or the life we receive after this life is not without beginning but is without end, that is of course unless annihilationism is true. And just looking at the term eternal punishment or eternal torment it could mean a torment or punishment for which there is no return from but unfortunately it’s not that simple because eternal torment is also described in other ways that don’t indicate a ceasing like the smoke of their torment will go up forever and ever and they have no rest day and night, or where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched. From everything I can see it’s just inconclusive whether they will suffer eternal torment or annihilation.

 

[Cerraco]

Yes. And none of those things have been proven wrong. They've all stood the test of time, otherwise, they would've been scrapped and forgotten about. And you and I wouldn't be talking about this right now.

I cannot even begin to describe how nightmarishly bad this logic is. You keep saying that how "the Bible isn't proven wrong, it just isn't!" How is it not proven wrong? Because it's simply written down, because the Bible just... exists? Also, the Bible is correct is because concepts aren't scrapped, and we're talking about it? Lots of people talk about bigfoot, that's a topic that isn't scrapped, so I guess bigfoot must be real then?

I doubt people want me opening that can of 'science vs. bible' worms all over again. I must've said this more times than anyone cares to count, science makes something that can be studied and observed at any time, the Bible is a book. And really? I have to believe all that Adam and Eve stuff to be a Christian? That's like telling someone to ignore all logic and things that make sense and force yourself to believe that something is true. Meanwhile, Muslims think their religion is right, and the world is wrong. Jewish people think they're right, and the world is wrong. How easy is it to declare your beliefs as the correct one? Answer: very.

It's the world that's wrong. A world that's doing everything it can to become independent from God and worship itself. A ploy by Satan to drag down as many people with him as he can before Jesus one day returns, set things right, and condemn him and his followers into the lake of fire for all eternity.

Ahhh yes, we're back to the whole Satan/sin stuff. Is there a set date Jesus is returning? Or is it one of those "I don't know, he'll come eventually" things. Not something I'd hold my breath over. It'd be a bit weird for him to show up in the year 6000 or something when the world is almost like The Jetsons. When people talk about connecting murders, rapists, thieves, etc. to Satan, I can see the connection, but a lot of people like to connect Satan to things that aren't exactly evil.

Perhaps you're trying to rely on your own power rather than inviting God in and trusting that He will help you?

Again, the problem is closer to going off everything the Bible says. 'Inviting God' by itself shouldn't be an issue. Am I wrong? He still (even unintentionally) created the broken world, right? We didn't make us, he did.

That's your insecurities flaring up. I should know as I've been the same. A woman wants a confident man who's okay with himself and is willing to approach her and treat her like a human being. You don't need to be perfect, but if you give off any indication that you'll place her on a pedestal, it's potentially going to scare her away. Because deep down, she knows she can't be your everything. She's way too flawed to do that.

I can tell you with full confidence, that when something embarrassing happens near some woman, that's not "just my insecurities". The insecurities are there, sure, but it's not connected to what I'm talking about. Everything else you said was spot on. The pedestalizing is also something that often happens when people watch adult films, which I'm assuming is the issue you had in the past that you mentioned.

And if she think she can and wants you to treat her like she's God, then she's a very dangerous woman to be with and you shouldn't have anything to do with her.

Nah, I don't want a woman that will use me.

For divorces?

When I say looks, I mean that a lot of people hook up just because of their looks. But yeah, that can create divorces too.

And by child sacrifice, I'm talking about abortion. As well as how we're glorifying putting puberty blockers and hormone injections into young children to push the transgender narrative.

Ahhh, I swear I had a feeling you were talking about abortion. Calling it "child sacrifice" is a bit much, given the different contexts it can have. I am disgusted with the whole hormone blocking thing and genital mutilation surgeries or whatever is going on. Granted, you never know what someone else is going through, not that I'm backing up the aforementioned things. I'm not a fan of abortion either, but I'd rather be pro-choice because what if a woman is raped? Even through incest? It's easy to act like God's secretary and speak for him, but I can't fathom being a woman forced to have a child I didn't want/ask for with everyone judging me.

Also, what if the woman is very old and/or very sick? What if having the baby would kill her and the infant because her body can't handle it? Life is not this black and white thing, I don't care how religious you are.

Back in the Old Testament, we've had examples of societies like the Moabites who would place their infants on the hands of scalding hot statues and bang their drums as hard as they can to muffle out their screams. All to please a fake deity.

And here we are now, aborting and mutilating children to please the self. To justify our indulgence in sexual sin and please the deity known as "Self".

Those two things are drastically different, but are still awful.

As I said before, Science is a tool given to us by God. They're not mutually exclusive.

I agree, they're not. But this isn't the 1800s or the 1900s, our technology can see the molecular structure of anything. Almost anything can be done by AI, and we went from communicating through sending messages on horseback to smartphones. Kind of awkward of how God doesn't want us to rely on science, but it has made things so much easier and has answered so many mysteries.

I'd rather live in a world almost dominated by technology where hard tasks are made easier, sicknesses get cured, and helpful things get made faster and faster than everyone just waiting for God to do something or not do something. I could not be happier that I didn't have diehard Christians parents or was forced to go to a Catholic school where I'd be beaten with a ruler.

Neither is logic or faith for that matter. Logic can't 100% predict the future, so we rely on faith based on what we know. People had faith that what they're making could revolutionize in the world. Whether it be their faith in God working things out, or faith in themselves.

No, logic can't 100% the future, but it maybe 60% predict it, 70% predict, 80%, and so on, depending on the topic.

And you have a lot of faith in this statement, I'm sure. But again, that could not be further from the truth.

It's that kind of thinking that will keep you in bondage and drag you into Hell. The idea that you're someone worthless and unlovable. Satan wants you think think that way.

I love how everything in this religion is all heaven or hell, black or white, 0 or 100, left or right... but there's never purgatory, grey, 50 or the middle respectively. Having such a polarizing God is not a comfortable thought.

 

[OnceLostButNowFound]

I cannot even begin to describe how nightmarishly bad this logic is. You keep saying that how "the Bible isn't proven wrong, it just isn't!" How is it not proven wrong? Because it's simply written down, because the Bible just... exists? Also, the Bible is correct is because concepts aren't scrapped, and we're talking about it? Lots of people talk about bigfoot, that's a topic that isn't scrapped, so I guess bigfoot must be real then?

I doubt people want me opening that can of 'science vs. bible' worms all over again. I must've said this more times than anyone cares to count, science makes something that can be studied and observed at any time, the Bible is a book. And really? I have to believe all that Adam and Eve stuff to be a Christian? That's like telling someone to ignore all logic and things that make sense and force yourself to believe that something is true. Meanwhile, Muslims think their religion is right, and the world is wrong. Jewish people think they're right, and the world is wrong. How easy is it to declare your beliefs as the correct one? Answer: very.

The difference between Christianity and all the other "Religions" is that with the other religions, we're trying to reach God and earn His favor/salvation. When in reality, God has been reaching to us and offering us the free gift of salvation.

Ahhh yes, we're back to the whole Satan/sin stuff. Is there a set date Jesus is returning? Or is it one of those "I don't know, he'll come eventually" things. Not something I'd hold my breath over. It'd be a bit weird for him to show up in the year 6000 or something when the world is almost like The Jetsons. When people talk about connecting murders, rapists, thieves, etc. to Satan, I can see the connection, but a lot of people like to connect Satan to things that aren't exactly evil.

The Bible doesn't say *when* He's returning, but it does teach about signs of His returning, and that He'll come like a thief in the night, so you'll want to be prepared for when He does come. We don't know when that'll be, but it will be when you least expect it.

And why would it be weird if He showed us when the world "is almost like the Jetsons"?

And you don't believe certain things aren't evil because you're only looking at things through your own eyes as well as that of the world's.

Again, the problem is closer to going off everything the Bible says. 'Inviting God' by itself shouldn't be an issue. Am I wrong? He still (even unintentionally) created the broken world, right? We didn't make us, he did.

We created this broken world. Not Him. We chose to stray from Him.

When I say looks, I mean that a lot of people hook up just because of their looks. But yeah, that can create divorces too.

Marriage is supposed to be a life-long covenant, and it's a shame that so many people disregard that.

I'm not a fan of abortion either, but I'd rather be pro-choice because what if a woman is raped?

Adoption. Even then, I've read about some women who choose to keep those babies, because at the end of the day, they're still children.

Even through incest?

Adoption.

It's easy to act like God's secretary and speak for him, but I can't fathom being a woman forced to have a child I didn't want/ask for with everyone judging me.

“For am I now seeking the approval of men, or of God? Or am I striving to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Christ.” Galations 1:10

You are defined by being God's child, not by what other people think of you. It's better for people to scoff and ridicule you for choosing to spare an innocent life than to take it.

Also, what if the woman is very old and/or very sick? What if having the baby would kill her and the infant because her body can't handle it? Life is not this black and white thing, I don't care how religious you are.

My sister went through that very thing. She was trying for a baby but ended up having to terminate the pregnancy very early on due to a health issue that caused it to grow outside her uterus. There was no saving it. Even then though, that's more of a miscarriage than traditional abortion.

Even with the above things you mentioned, the percentages of babies being born out of rape and incest are astronomically low compared to everything else. And people have used those same tiny statistics to justify abortion on a broad scale.

And I'd say life *is* black and white, for we have a Father who is Holy. And when we die, we either go to Him or to Satan. And we are all without excuse to deny Him.

I agree, they're not. But this isn't the 1800s or the 1900s, our technology can see the molecular structure of anything. Almost anything can be done by AI, and we went from communicating through sending messages on horseback to smartphones. Kind of awkward of how God doesn't want us to rely on science, but it has made things so much easier and has answered so many mysteries.

Again, none of that stuff disproves God. If anything, seeing how complex our molecular structure is more proof of a creator due to how meticulously designed is. Randomness wouldn't be able to do all that.

And sure, technology has made things "easier" but has is made things "better"? With today's technology, we binge on social media, engorge ourselves with food filled with chemicals and fillers like soy that destroy testosterone. We use it to isolate ourselves and lock ourselves away in these echo chambers that solidify our faulty beliefs. AI is even being used by students to write entire essays for them, undermining the point of learning. And I'm sure it's being used for worse things than that.

Technology isn't an inherently bad thing, but the fact we use it for self-pleasure and abuse it to such an disgusting degree is even more proof of how much the lack of God in our lives impacts us not just on a spiritual level, but on an emotional and physical level.

THAT'S why we can't "rely" on science. Not in the same way we rely on God.

Plus, have you ever heard of the Antikythera mechanism? It's essentially the closest thing the Romans had to a super computer. Which suggests that if the Romans had their way, they'd be FAR ahead of us in terms of technology. But it's because of their sin and turning away from God that ultimately caused their downfall as an empire.

And I wouldn't be surprised if America suffers that same fate too one day.

I'd rather live in a world almost dominated by technology where hard tasks are made easier, sicknesses get cured, and helpful things get made faster and faster than everyone just waiting for God to do something or not do something. I could not be happier that I didn't have diehard Christians parents or was forced to go to a Catholic school where I'd be beaten with a ruler.

Again, waiting on God and doing things aren't mutually exclusive. Faith is both waiting and taking steps in what you know you can do.

No, logic can't 100% the future, but it maybe 60% predict it, 70% predict, 80%, and so on, depending on the topic.

But never one hundred percent.

I love how everything in this religion is all heaven or hell, black or white, 0 or 100, left or right... but there's never purgatory, grey, 50 or the middle respectively. Having such a polarizing God is not a comfortable thought.

God is just, but He is also merciful. He knew we would all fall short of His standards. That's why He sent His Son to die for our sins. He doesn't expect us to live our lives perfectly, otherwise there would be no need.

 

[Cerraco]

The Bible doesn't say *when* He's returning, but it does teach about signs of His returning, and that He'll come like a thief in the night, so you'll want to be prepared for when He does come. We don't know when that'll be, but it will be when you least expect it.

And why would it be weird if He showed us when the world "is almost like the Jetsons"?

I have a strong feeling that we won't even be here when that happens. Also, I hope Jesus has quite the entrance, because I don't know how people will respond to seeing some guy with a robe and long beard in those times, if it's the far future.

And you don't believe certain things aren't evil because you're only looking at things through your own eyes as well as that of the world's.

See, a lot of you Christians see good things, and then sin. This black or white stuff. Someone going to hell forever for murder and someone going to hell forever for just being gay or not believing Christ, but didn't do much wrong in life doesn't seem like a balanced way of dealing with things. The one-sided "wEll thAt's jusT how God is!!!" anti-logic doesn't fly with me. That goes back to the having it both ways argument.

We created this broken world. Not Him. We chose to stray from Him.

And for the millionth time, God knew exactly what was gonna happen before it happened.

Adoption. Even then, I've read about some women who choose to keep those babies, because at the end of the day, they're still children.

Adoption.

So the solution to women being raped and is just for them to suck it up, deal with it, go through the agony of birthing the child they never ever wanted, then put them up for adoption. Yes, adoption magically fixes all those problems somehow... Even if the birth could kill the woman depending on their health. Yes, I would love to be a woman having to deal with all that because "those are just the rules!" and "that's just how God wants it!" Just... no. God no.

Oh wait, and then that person has to grow up knowing they were a product of rape. Yeah, awesome, cool.

“For am I now seeking the approval of men, or of God? Or am I striving to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Christ.” Galations 1:10

You are defined by being God's child, not by what other people think of you. It's better for people to scoff and ridicule you for choosing to spare an innocent life than to take it.

I wasn't really talking about looking for other people's approval with the part you quoted here.

My sister went through that very thing. She was trying for a baby but ended up having to terminate the pregnancy very early on due to a health issue that caused it to grow outside her uterus. There was no saving it. Even then though, that's more of a miscarriage than traditional abortion.

That's sort of what I'm talking about... "adoption" can't save that.

Even with the above things you mentioned, the percentages of babies being born out of rape and incest are astronomically low compared to everything else. And people have used those same tiny statistics to justify abortion on a broad scale.

Doesn't matter how low it is, it still happens and it's still a problem. The statistics don't erase the reality.

And I'd say life *is* black and white, for we have a Father who is Holy. And when we die, we either go to Him or to Satan. And we are all without excuse to deny Him.

Of course you're gonna say that, you're a Christian.

Again, none of that stuff disproves God. If anything, seeing how complex our molecular structure is more proof of a creator due to how meticulously designed is. Randomness wouldn't be able to do all that.

Again, man, again, me mentioning science is not about disproving God. I've said that quite a few times. I said that science disproves these Bible origin stories. You've been defending them with empty nothingburger arguments by simply saying, "No, it's all true." and "It's not proven wrong!" with really nothing to back that up against for the fact that it's in the Bible, so therefore it's true because it's in the Bible, so therefore it's true because it's in the Bible, so it must be true!

And then you use the argument of how they weren't scrapped or something and that we're talking about them. Okaaay..? How the hell does that make something true, that just means something is culturally relevant/popular, not true. How do you not know for sure that some things are just not allegorical stories? It's even been said that the Bible borrows from Greek Mythology's underworld.

And sure, technology has made things "easier" but has is made things "better"?

Yes.

With today's technology, we binge on social media, engorge ourselves with food filled with chemicals and fillers like soy that destroy testosterone. We use it to isolate ourselves and lock ourselves away in these echo chambers that solidify our faulty beliefs. AI is even being used by students to write entire essays for them, undermining the point of learning. And I'm sure it's being used for worse things than that.

People will always use things for the wrong reasons, technology or not. In the Wild West/American Frontier times, there were laws where you could shoot someone if you felt threatened, which led to people abusing that. In the medieval times, simply walking around from town to town looking for work would be punishable by death. People were idiots then, people are idiots now.

Technology isn't an inherently bad thing, but the fact we use it for self-pleasure and abuse it to such an disgusting degree is even more proof of how much the lack of God in our lives impacts us not just on a spiritual level, but on an emotional and physical level.

THAT'S why we can't "rely" on science. Not in the same way we rely on God.

And this is fine, but when I mention how - not just science alone - but by the discoveries made as well, all of these things scream that the Earth is not 6000 years old. Why don't these findings lead to the Earth being as old as the Bible says? I guess the remains of archaic humans, dinosaurs and civilizations existing long before 6000 years were just pranksters, right? You can't just pin everything on "to make us move farther from God" as your ultimate answer for every single thing.

Plus, have you ever heard of the Antikythera mechanism? It's essentially the closest thing the Romans had to a super computer. Which suggests that if the Romans had their way, they'd be FAR ahead of us in terms of technology. But it's because of their sin and turning away from God that ultimately caused their downfall as an empire.

And I wouldn't be surprised if America suffers that same fate too one day.

If you're talking about technology corrupting us, it won't be American falling, it'll be everyone. Yes, I've heard of that mechanism. The fall of the Roman Empire was due to many, many factors. You're saying each and every single one of them were because of denying God? A lot of those reasons were from violent attacks from other empires.

Edit: I will admit - and I don't know if technology is solely to blame for this one - but modern music is usually trash. Things between the 50s to the 80s were the golden age in my opinion. Now, it's just auto-tune rushed out garbage.

But never one hundred percent.

We're not psychic, so no.

God is just, but He is also merciful. He knew we would all fall short of His standards. That's why He sent His Son to die for our sins. He doesn't expect us to live our lives perfectly, otherwise there would be no need.

You know, I've watched so many NDE videos. Some atheists, some of Jewish people, a couple of gay people, some Muslims, and they all seem to have one thing in common: that God is not a d-bag Sunday school teacher. See the Christian God is this black or white, do or die, perfection or hell deity with no in-between. However, the religious-neutral/NDE version of God seems to be infinitely more fair than that. He doesn't care what orientation or religion you are, he cares about more than that.

See, if you had a son that was gay, but was the nicest person ever and would always put others before him, would you still hate him just because he was gay? Would you put his entire value as a person on his orientation, call it a sin, and then just assume he goes straight to hell? You'd think a loving God that's smarter than us would be above that garbage.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I have a strong feeling that we won't even be here when that happens. Also, I hope Jesus has quite the entrance, because I don't know how people will respond to seeing some guy with a robe and long beard in those times, if it's the far future.

See, a lot of you Christians see good things, and then sin. This black or white stuff. Someone going to hell forever for murder and someone going to hell forever for just being gay or not believing Christ, but didn't do much wrong in life doesn't seem like a balanced way of dealing with things. The one-sided "wEll thAt's jusT how God is!!!" anti-logic doesn't fly with me. That goes back to the having it both ways argument.

And for the millionth time, God knew exactly what was gonna happen before it happened.

So the solution to women being raped and is just for them to suck it up, deal with it, go through the agony of birthing the child they never ever wanted, then put them up for adoption. Yes, adoption magically fixes all those problems somehow... Even if the birth could kill the woman depending on their health. Yes, I would love to be a woman having to deal with all that because "those are just the rules!" and "that's just how God wants it!" Just... no. God no.

Oh wait, and then that person has to grow up knowing they were a product of rape. Yeah, awesome, cool.

I wasn't really talking about looking for other people's approval with the part you quoted here.

That's sort of what I'm talking about... "adoption" can't save that.

Doesn't matter how low it is, it still happens and it's still a problem. The statistics don't erase the reality.

Of course you're gonna say that, you're a Christian.

Again, man, again, me mentioning science is not about disproving God. I've said that quite a few times. I said that science disproves these Bible origin stories. You've been defending them with empty nothingburger arguments by simply saying, "No, it's all true." and "It's not proven wrong!" with really nothing to back that up against for the fact that it's in the Bible, so therefore it's true because it's in the Bible, so therefore it's true because it's in the Bible, so it must be true!

And then you use the argument of how they weren't scrapped or something and that we're talking about them. Okaaay..? How the hell does that make something true, that just means something is culturally relevant/popular, not true. How do you not know for sure that some things are just not allegorical stories? It's even been said that the Bible borrows from Greek Mythology's underworld.

Yes.

People will always use things for the wrong reasons, technology or not. In the Wild West/American Frontier times, there were laws where you could shoot someone if you felt threatened, which led to people abusing that. In the medieval times, simply walking around from town to town looking for work would be punishable by death. People were idiots then, people are idiots now.

And this is fine, but when I mention how - not just science alone - but by the discoveries made as well, all of these things scream that the Earth is not 6000 years old. Why don't these findings lead to the Earth being as old as the Bible says? I guess the remains of archaic humans, dinosaurs and civilizations existing long before 6000 years were just pranksters, right? You can't just pin everything on "to make us move farther from God" as your ultimate answer for every single thing.

If you're talking about technology corrupting us, it won't be American falling, it'll be everyone. Yes, I've heard of that mechanism. The fall of the Roman Empire was due to many, many factors. You're saying each and every single one of them were because of denying God? A lot of those reasons were from violent attacks from other empires.

Edit: I will admit - and I don't know if technology is solely to blame for this one - but modern music is usually trash. Things between the 50s to the 80s were the golden age in my opinion. Now, it's just auto-tune rushed out garbage.

We're not psychic, so no.

You know, I've watched so many NDE videos. Some atheists, some of Jewish people, a couple of gay people, some Muslims, and they all seem to have one thing in common: that God is not a d-bag Sunday school teacher. See the Christian God is this black or white, do or die, perfection or hell deity with no in-between. However, the religious-neutral/NDE version of God seems to be infinitely more fair than that. He doesn't care what orientation or religion you are, he cares about more than that.

See, if you had a son that was gay, but was the nicest person ever and would always put others before him, would you still hate him just because he was gay? Would you put his entire value as a person on his orientation, call it a sin, and then just assume he goes straight to hell? You'd think a loving God that's smarter than us would be above that garbage.

The thing is, sexual deviance isn't just a "gay" problem. What's more, I'm going to suggest that you begin to more fully engage the logic (and education) that you keep alluding to throughout your posts, because so far, I'm not really seeing it.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

From my studies on the words aion and aionios the noun form of the word aion can refer to something that is not eternal like an age but the adjective form aionios is always used in reference to things that are eternal. Now sometimes they might refer to something that has no beginning or end, and sometimes they refer to things that have no end but did have a beginning. That’s what I’ve observed in my studies on the usage of these two words in the scriptures. For example aionios in relation to God’s reign, His power, and His glory is without beginning or end but aionios in relation to the suffering we receive in the lake of fire or the life we receive after this life is not without beginning but is without end, that is of course unless annihilationism is true. And just looking at the term eternal punishment or eternal torment it could mean a torment or punishment for which there is no return from but unfortunately it’s not that simple because eternal torment is also described in other ways that don’t indicate a ceasing like the smoke of their torment will go up forever and ever and they have no rest day and night, or where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched. From everything I can see it’s just inconclusive whether they will suffer eternal torment or annihilation.

I think a lot of our problems come from us being westerners and how we think different from eastern mindset. Look at Jude 1:7 if you have a modern day transition that is not a literal one you will see Sodom and Gomorrah are consumed by “ eternal fire” but in Ez 16:53-55 God says that he will restore both cities. I have had the privilege to spend time in the east and the way they think is different. To the eastern mindset to say something is eternal till it’s not is not a contradiction. To the western mindset if something is eternal it cannot end if it did then it’s not eternal. So we have to get out of our western mindset to understand what the original audience would have understood. Aionios doesn’t mean eternal, it can when describing God but if the authors wanted to mean eternal they would have used Aidios the proper Greek word for eternal, ask yourself why would God choose a word that is not eternal when the word Aidios would have made the argument settled. This all comes down to your view of who God is and what are his nature and character. If you believe that God wanted a world that he was creating to be in relationship with him why did he create a world that he doesn’t get what he wants and Jesus doesn’t get 100% of what he paid for and now God has to make and sustain a place of eternal torture and he must make his creation to be eternally alive and able to feel pain and agony forever and he must listen to those in there forever and sin never is vanquished it’s just put in the corner forever and death has no end. God knowing the end from the beginning did that? Or you can see God through the true Gospel of Jesus who is the savior of the world and came down, setting his glory aside and died and he won 100% of what he paid for he gets. God as a loving Father who would do anything to save his children that he created and has a plan which is already done but ongoing to save all his creation. That is the God I see in scripture the God who hates sin and death and has made a plan to redeem all through Jesus, God paid to ultimate price to redeem his creation and then when all is done 1Cor 15 will be completed death is conquered and sin will be no more and God will be all in all and then God creates a New Heaven and a New Earth and God has what he set out to do , have a creation that he is in fellowship with and all will love him out of free will and then the scripture will be completed that says “ Every knee will bow and every tongue will gladly, joyfully confess Jesus is Lord. This is who I see is the God of scripture and that is why I read scripture in the Christian Universe Redemption way and not in the pagan way of Eternal torture.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I think a lot of our problems come from us being westerners and how we think different from eastern mindset. Look at Jude 1:7 if you have a modern day transition that is not a literal one you will see Sodom and Gomorrah are consumed by “ eternal fire” but in Ez 16:53-55 God says that he will restore both cities. I have had the privilege to spend time in the east and the way they think is different. To the eastern mindset to say something is eternal till it’s not is not a contradiction. To the western mindset if something is eternal it cannot end if it did then it’s not eternal. So we have to get out of our western mindset to understand what the original audience would have understood. Aionios doesn’t mean eternal, it can when describing God but if the authors wanted to mean eternal they would have used Aidios the proper Greek word for eternal, ask yourself why would God choose a word that is not eternal when the word Aidios would have made the argument settled. This all comes down to your view of who God is and what are his nature and character. If you believe that God wanted a world that he was creating to be in relationship with him why did he create a world that he doesn’t get what he wants and Jesus doesn’t get 100% of what he paid for and now God has to make and sustain a place of eternal torture and he must make his creation to be eternally alive and able to feel pain and agony forever and he must listen to those in there forever and sin never is vanquished it’s just put in the corner forever and death has no end. God knowing the end from the beginning did that? Or you can see God through the true Gospel of Jesus who is the savior of the world and came down, setting his glory aside and died and he won 100% of what he paid for he gets. God as a loving Father who would do anything to save his children that he created and has a plan which is already done but ongoing to save all his creation. That is the God I see in scripture the God who hates sin and death and has made a plan to redeem all through Jesus, God paid to ultimate price to redeem his creation and then when all is done 1Cor 15 will be completed death is conquered and sin will be no more and God will be all in all and then God creates a New Heaven and a New Earth and God has what he set out to do , have a creation that he is in fellowship with and all will love him out of free will and then the scripture will be completed that says “ Every knee will bow and every tongue will gladly, joyfully confess Jesus is Lord. This is who I see is the God of scripture and that is why I read scripture in the Christian Universe Redemption way and not in the pagan way of Eternal torture.

The problem with this interpretation is that the definition of the word aionios isn’t the only indication that everyone won’t be saved. The argument about aionios only pertains to how long they will suffer not as to whether or not they will eventually enter heaven. In order for universalism to be true they have to at some point enter heaven and there is no passage that says they will. To the contrary there are several passages that say they won’t. As I’ve mentioned twice you still have the death of the souls in hell to contend with. Matthew 10:28 James 5:19-20. You still have Jesus saying that few will enter in Matthew 7:14, you still have Jesus saying the not everyone who says to Him Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven in Matthew 7:21-23, you still have the fate of Judas being better for him if he were never born, you still have Jesus saying that blasphemy of the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven in Luke 12:10, so it’s not a matter of simply what the word aionios means because you have numerous examples that not everyone will enter heaven and receive eternal life that have nothing to do with aionios. So universalism doesn’t merely hang on the definition of one word, it’s refuted numerous different ways with numerous different wording that requires some pretty fancy scriptural gymnastics in order to circumvent. If you read universalism into 1 Corinthians 15 that all will be resurrected after they are put into subjection to Christ then you have to conclude that death will also be resurrected as well. The only thing universalists have in this passage is the term “Christ will be all in all” which is a very ambiguous statement to based a doctrine on when it contradicts the plainly stated passages I’ve quoted above.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

The problem with this interpretation is that the definition of the word aionios isn’t the only indication that everyone won’t be saved. The argument about aionios only pertains to how long they will suffer not as to whether or not they will eventually enter heaven. In order for universalism to be true they have to at some point enter heaven and there is no passage that says they will. To the contrary there are several passages that say they won’t. As I’ve mentioned twice you still have the death of the souls in hell to contend with. Matthew 10:28 James 5:19-20. You still have Jesus saying that few will enter in Matthew 7:14, you still have Jesus saying the not everyone who says to Him Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven in Matthew 7:21-23, you still have the fate of Judas being better for him if he were never born, you still have Jesus saying that blasphemy of the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven in Luke 12:10, so it’s not a matter of simply what the word aionios means because you have numerous examples that not everyone will enter heaven and receive eternal life that have nothing to do with aionios. So universalism doesn’t merely hang on the definition of one word, it’s refuted numerous different ways with numerous different wording that requires some pretty fancy scriptural gymnastics in order to circumvent. If you read universalism into 1 Corinthians 15 that all will be resurrected after they are put into subjection to Christ then you have to conclude that death will also be resurrected as well. The only thing universalists have in this passage is the term “Christ will be all in all” which is a very ambiguous statement to based a doctrine on when it contradicts the plainly stated passages I’ve quoted above.

Ok like I said earlier it all comes down to our understanding of God and how he works and has and will work with his creation. I will deal with each thing that brought up individually. The death of the soul- first what is the soul? I see the soul as the part of us that we have made in this world, what have you done with the life you have been given. Jesus said if you want to keep your soul you must lose it (die to self and live your life for God) but if you try to save it it will be lost. Those who have followed Jesus keep on going forward with their soul after the mortal body dies, we just keep on going in the next life we lose nothing. Those who live for themselves by doing what they want and do not surrender their lives to Jesus, lose whatever ever they have gained. That’s the whole gain the whole world but lose their soul. The Lake of Fire is the second death for those who did not follow Jesus after their mortal body is dead their soul is dead also, they carry nothing to the next age every thing is lost. But no place does scripture say our spirit dies and that is who we are , we are spiritual beings having a temporary time in a mortal body, but our spirit doesn’t change. It’s kinda like on a video game those who follow God level up at the death of their mortal body but those who have lived for themselves they have to “start over” their mortal body is dead and their soul they start over with nothing. As for those who say Lord , Lord but don’t enter into the kingdom, that’s what will happen when the mortal body dies from those who followed false or wrong or delusional thinking they think they are following God but are not. Those can’t enter into the kingdom until they have their dross removed and then they will see Jesus clearly and they will bend the knee and gladly, joyfully confess that Jesus is Lord. They then are subjects of his kingdom not heirs to the kingdom as those who have followed Jesus. Which brings me to the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit which is denying the call of the Holy Spirit , basically it’s like telling the Holy Spirit to get lost who are you to tell me what to do , if you do this you don’t get to see life in the next age till you repent and bend the knee and confess, then you are forgiven and you receive the gift of never ending life. As for Matt 7 and the narrow gate , that’s not talking about heaven and “hell” it’s talking about the life we live on earth in our mortal bodies. The whole chapter is talking about things of this earth now not heaven. The more people who follow Jesus now the better our lives will be but few find it that’s why the world is in such a mess. What you are not seeing is Gods plan , it’s Gods will that none parish, this time down on earth in the mortal body is all about are you going to be part of Gods kingdom or are you going to be a subject of that kingdom. God already has the whole “saved “ thing done In Jesus. It’s not about heaven or “hell” . What you are not seeing is that God said he sees the beginning from the end and he has made it clear that Jesus is the savior of the world, Jesus will get 100% of what he paid for. No place in scripture does it say Jesus is the potential savior and our will is stronger than Gods. Rom 11:32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that he might have mercy on all. 2Cor 5:19 in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting people’s trespass against them, and has given us the message of reconciliation. Rom 5:18 / the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 1Cor 15 21-28 as in Adam all die as in Jesus all will live. Phil 2:10-11 Every knee will bow and every tongue will gladly and joyfully confess that Jesus is Lord. There are other verses that all indicate what God is doing also. So what you are doing is looking only to man’s time in the mortal body and not including the next age, few find Jesus in this mortal time most will not see Jesus as he is till the next age , but they forfeit the inheritance they will be subjects of the kingdom. I differ from most Christian Universal Redemption people in that I believe that those who are subjects of the kingdom will inherit the earth as there never ending life but those who have followed Jesus are residents of heaven (New Jerusalem) . This is the story of scripture Do you think that God didn’t know what he was doing when he created all this or is God so week he can’t get it done and he has to settle for at least some of his children being saved?

 

[Cerraco]

The thing is, sexual deviance isn't just a "gay" problem.

Well yeah, I've said that.

What's more, I'm going to suggest that you begin to more fully engage the logic (and education) that you keep alluding to throughout your posts, because so far, I'm not really seeing it.

Do you have an example or something? I find it a bit strange that you tell me this but not to any poster that makes a "because the Bible said so!" post.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Well yeah, I've said that.

Do you have an example or something? I find it a bit strange that you tell me this but not to any poster that makes a "because the Bible said so!" post.

From reading your many posts from more than one thread here on CF, I get the sense in your assessment about evidence for the Bible, you expect that the only way for the Bible to be 'true,' or that is could possibly be true, is to be so in what is essentially a Fundamentalist framework.

I think you're doing yourself an epistemological disservice by mixing a fundamentalist expectation with your personal grievances.

I understand your grievances. You're lonely. You're frustrated with life, frustrated with women and other things, and God doesn't seem to be in the business of parting the Red Sea for anyone else but Moses. I get it. I've been there. But at the same time, things aren't going to get any better by bashing the Bible in a discordant way.

Life is too short and the Devil is too slick for you or I to stay on this hopeless track very long.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Ok like I said earlier it all comes down to our understanding of God and how he works and has and will work with his creation. I will deal with each thing that brought up individually. The death of the soul- first what is the soul? I see the soul as the part of us that we have made in this world, what have you done with the life you have been given. Jesus said if you want to keep your soul you must lose it (die to self and live your life for God) but if you try to save it it will be lost. Those who have followed Jesus keep on going forward with their soul after the mortal body dies, we just keep on going in the next life we lose nothing. Those who live for themselves by doing what they want and do not surrender their lives to Jesus, lose whatever ever they have gained. That’s the whole gain the whole world but lose their soul. The Lake of Fire is the second death for those who did not follow Jesus after their mortal body is dead their soul is dead also, they carry nothing to the next age every thing is lost. But no place does scripture say our spirit dies and that is who we are , we are spiritual beings having a temporary time in a mortal body, but our spirit doesn’t change. It’s kinda like on a video game those who follow God level up at the death of their mortal body but those who have lived for themselves they have to “start over” their mortal body is dead and their soul they start over with nothing. As for those who say Lord , Lord but don’t enter into the kingdom, that’s what will happen when the mortal body dies from those who followed false or wrong or delusional thinking they think they are following God but are not. Those can’t enter into the kingdom until they have their dross removed and then they will see Jesus clearly and they will bend the knee and gladly, joyfully confess that Jesus is Lord. They then are subjects of his kingdom not heirs to the kingdom as those who have followed Jesus. Which brings me to the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit which is denying the call of the Holy Spirit , basically it’s like telling the Holy Spirit to get lost who are you to tell me what to do , if you do this you don’t get to see life in the next age till you repent and bend the knee and confess, then you are forgiven and you receive the gift of never ending life. As for Matt 7 and the narrow gate , that’s not talking about heaven and “hell” it’s talking about the life we live on earth in our mortal bodies. The whole chapter is talking about things of this earth now not heaven. The more people who follow Jesus now the better our lives will be but few find it that’s why the world is in such a mess. What you are not seeing is Gods plan , it’s Gods will that none parish, this time down on earth in the mortal body is all about are you going to be part of Gods kingdom or are you going to be a subject of that kingdom. God already has the whole “saved “ thing done In Jesus. It’s not about heaven or “hell” . What you are not seeing is that God said he sees the beginning from the end and he has made it clear that Jesus is the savior of the world, Jesus will get 100% of what he paid for. No place in scripture does it say Jesus is the potential savior and our will is stronger than Gods. Rom 11:32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that he might have mercy on all. 2Cor 5:19 in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting people’s trespass against them, and has given us the message of reconciliation. Rom 5:18 / the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 1Cor 15 21-28 as in Adam all die as in Jesus all will live. Phil 2:10-11 Every knee will bow and every tongue will gladly and joyfully confess that Jesus is Lord. There are other verses that all indicate what God is doing also. So what you are doing is looking only to man’s time in the mortal body and not including the next age, few find Jesus in this mortal time most will not see Jesus as he is till the next age , but they forfeit the inheritance they will be subjects of the kingdom. I differ from most Christian Universal Redemption people in that I believe that those who are subjects of the kingdom will inherit the earth as there never ending life but those who have followed Jesus are residents of heaven (New Jerusalem) . This is the story of scripture Do you think that God didn’t know what he was doing when he created all this or is God so week he can’t get it done and he has to settle for at least some of his children being saved?

A couple problems I see with this is that in Matthew 7:21-23 Jesus said not everyone who says Lord Lord will enter the kings of heaven. You’re saying the exact opposite of what He said here. You’re also doing the exact same thing with those who blaspheme the Spirit. Jesus said it will never be forgiven, you’re saying it will. Jesus is the Savior of the world because He has brought salvation to the world and some have chosen to reject it. Your argument about God being so weak that He can’t accomplish it doesn’t take into consideration that saving those who reject Him against their will was never His plan. Surely you can’t deny that God didn’t want anyone to sin or for anyone to reject Him in the first place but it’s still happened regardless of what He wanted. Just like God didn’t want to kill mankind in the flood. Was He too weak to prevent that from happening, or was He grieved by it because He knows that forcing someone to love you has no true value?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Ok like I said earlier it all comes down to our understanding of God and how he works and has and will work with his creation. I will deal with each thing that brought up individually. The death of the soul- first what is the soul? I see the soul as the part of us that we have made in this world, what have you done with the life you have been given. Jesus said if you want to keep your soul you must lose it (die to self and live your life for God) but if you try to save it it will be lost. Those who have followed Jesus keep on going forward with their soul after the mortal body dies, we just keep on going in the next life we lose nothing. Those who live for themselves by doing what they want and do not surrender their lives to Jesus, lose whatever ever they have gained. That’s the whole gain the whole world but lose their soul. The Lake of Fire is the second death for those who did not follow Jesus after their mortal body is dead their soul is dead also, they carry nothing to the next age every thing is lost. But no place does scripture say our spirit dies and that is who we are , we are spiritual beings having a temporary time in a mortal body, but our spirit doesn’t change. It’s kinda like on a video game those who follow God level up at the death of their mortal body but those who have lived for themselves they have to “start over” their mortal body is dead and their soul they start over with nothing. As for those who say Lord , Lord but don’t enter into the kingdom, that’s what will happen when the mortal body dies from those who followed false or wrong or delusional thinking they think they are following God but are not. Those can’t enter into the kingdom until they have their dross removed and then they will see Jesus clearly and they will bend the knee and gladly, joyfully confess that Jesus is Lord. They then are subjects of his kingdom not heirs to the kingdom as those who have followed Jesus. Which brings me to the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit which is denying the call of the Holy Spirit , basically it’s like telling the Holy Spirit to get lost who are you to tell me what to do , if you do this you don’t get to see life in the next age till you repent and bend the knee and confess, then you are forgiven and you receive the gift of never ending life. As for Matt 7 and the narrow gate , that’s not talking about heaven and “hell” it’s talking about the life we live on earth in our mortal bodies. The whole chapter is talking about things of this earth now not heaven. The more people who follow Jesus now the better our lives will be but few find it that’s why the world is in such a mess. What you are not seeing is Gods plan , it’s Gods will that none parish, this time down on earth in the mortal body is all about are you going to be part of Gods kingdom or are you going to be a subject of that kingdom. God already has the whole “saved “ thing done In Jesus. It’s not about heaven or “hell” . What you are not seeing is that God said he sees the beginning from the end and he has made it clear that Jesus is the savior of the world, Jesus will get 100% of what he paid for. No place in scripture does it say Jesus is the potential savior and our will is stronger than Gods. Rom 11:32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that he might have mercy on all. 2Cor 5:19 in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting people’s trespass against them, and has given us the message of reconciliation. Rom 5:18 / the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 1Cor 15 21-28 as in Adam all die as in Jesus all will live. Phil 2:10-11 Every knee will bow and every tongue will gladly and joyfully confess that Jesus is Lord. There are other verses that all indicate what God is doing also. So what you are doing is looking only to man’s time in the mortal body and not including the next age, few find Jesus in this mortal time most will not see Jesus as he is till the next age , but they forfeit the inheritance they will be subjects of the kingdom. I differ from most Christian Universal Redemption people in that I believe that those who are subjects of the kingdom will inherit the earth as there never ending life but those who have followed Jesus are residents of heaven (New Jerusalem) . This is the story of scripture Do you think that God didn’t know what he was doing when he created all this or is God so week he can’t get it done and he has to settle for at least some of his children being saved?

I apologize for not addressing the passages you quoted I have to get ready for work and don’t have time to address them right now.

 

[BNR32FAN]

But no place does scripture say our spirit dies and that is who we are , we are spiritual beings having a temporary time in a mortal body, but our spirit doesn’t change.

I disagree, throughout the entire Bible God has been calling man to repentance in order to receive eternal life and at the same time threatening death as a consequence for failing to repent. Everyone dies a physical death, the death that’s being referred to in these passages is in contrast to eternal life. The point of these passages is that those who don’t repent won’t receive eternal life. The death that’s being referred to is the second death which is the death of the soul which is not a temporal death because it’s in contrast to eternal life. You’re saying that everyone will receive eternal life which is contradictory to every example given about who receives eternal life.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Ok like I said earlier it all comes down to our understanding of God and how he works and has and will work with his creation. I will deal with each thing that brought up individually. The death of the soul- first what is the soul? I see the soul as the part of us that we have made in this world, what have you done with the life you have been given. Jesus said if you want to keep your soul you must lose it (die to self and live your life for God) but if you try to save it it will be lost. Those who have followed Jesus keep on going forward with their soul after the mortal body dies, we just keep on going in the next life we lose nothing. Those who live for themselves by doing what they want and do not surrender their lives to Jesus, lose whatever ever they have gained. That’s the whole gain the whole world but lose their soul. The Lake of Fire is the second death for those who did not follow Jesus after their mortal body is dead their soul is dead also, they carry nothing to the next age every thing is lost. But no place does scripture say our spirit dies and that is who we are , we are spiritual beings having a temporary time in a mortal body, but our spirit doesn’t change. It’s kinda like on a video game those who follow God level up at the death of their mortal body but those who have lived for themselves they have to “start over” their mortal body is dead and their soul they start over with nothing. As for those who say Lord , Lord but don’t enter into the kingdom, that’s what will happen when the mortal body dies from those who followed false or wrong or delusional thinking they think they are following God but are not. Those can’t enter into the kingdom until they have their dross removed and then they will see Jesus clearly and they will bend the knee and gladly, joyfully confess that Jesus is Lord. They then are subjects of his kingdom not heirs to the kingdom as those who have followed Jesus. Which brings me to the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit which is denying the call of the Holy Spirit , basically it’s like telling the Holy Spirit to get lost who are you to tell me what to do , if you do this you don’t get to see life in the next age till you repent and bend the knee and confess, then you are forgiven and you receive the gift of never ending life. As for Matt 7 and the narrow gate , that’s not talking about heaven and “hell” it’s talking about the life we live on earth in our mortal bodies. The whole chapter is talking about things of this earth now not heaven. The more people who follow Jesus now the better our lives will be but few find it that’s why the world is in such a mess. What you are not seeing is Gods plan , it’s Gods will that none parish, this time down on earth in the mortal body is all about are you going to be part of Gods kingdom or are you going to be a subject of that kingdom. God already has the whole “saved “ thing done In Jesus. It’s not about heaven or “hell” . What you are not seeing is that God said he sees the beginning from the end and he has made it clear that Jesus is the savior of the world, Jesus will get 100% of what he paid for. No place in scripture does it say Jesus is the potential savior and our will is stronger than Gods. Rom 11:32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that he might have mercy on all. 2Cor 5:19 in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting people’s trespass against them, and has given us the message of reconciliation. Rom 5:18 / the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 1Cor 15 21-28 as in Adam all die as in Jesus all will live. Phil 2:10-11 Every knee will bow and every tongue will gladly and joyfully confess that Jesus is Lord. There are other verses that all indicate what God is doing also. So what you are doing is looking only to man’s time in the mortal body and not including the next age, few find Jesus in this mortal time most will not see Jesus as he is till the next age , but they forfeit the inheritance they will be subjects of the kingdom. I differ from most Christian Universal Redemption people in that I believe that those who are subjects of the kingdom will inherit the earth as there never ending life but those who have followed Jesus are residents of heaven (New Jerusalem) . This is the story of scripture Do you think that God didn’t know what he was doing when he created all this or is God so week he can’t get it done and he has to settle for at least some of his children being saved?

Your explanation about the narrow gate is a very obscure interpretation. Anyone reading that passage without any preconceived notions about it would never come to such an interpretation. It’s extremely clear that Jesus is the narrow gate that leads to life as opposed to the wide gate that leads to destruction because He’s been presented as the only means to life as opposed to destruction or death throughout the scriptures. That passage is even paralleled in John 10 in reference to salvation as opposed to destruction.

“So Jesus said to them again, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. All who came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture. The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly.”
‭‭John‬ ‭10‬:‭7‬-‭10‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

The only way anyone can possibly come to any other interpretation of that passage is if they’re intentionally trying not to understand it as it was spoken and specifically trying to insert some alternative meaning to it. Jesus is always the means to life in every parable that deals with life and destruction or death, in every single case in scripture Jesus is always the metaphorical or allegorical means to life. Brother please, let the scriptures say what they say.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Ok like I said earlier it all comes down to our understanding of God and how he works and has and will work with his creation. I will deal with each thing that brought up individually. The death of the soul- first what is the soul? I see the soul as the part of us that we have made in this world, what have you done with the life you have been given. Jesus said if you want to keep your soul you must lose it (die to self and live your life for God) but if you try to save it it will be lost. Those who have followed Jesus keep on going forward with their soul after the mortal body dies, we just keep on going in the next life we lose nothing. Those who live for themselves by doing what they want and do not surrender their lives to Jesus, lose whatever ever they have gained. That’s the whole gain the whole world but lose their soul. The Lake of Fire is the second death for those who did not follow Jesus after their mortal body is dead their soul is dead also, they carry nothing to the next age every thing is lost. But no place does scripture say our spirit dies and that is who we are , we are spiritual beings having a temporary time in a mortal body, but our spirit doesn’t change. It’s kinda like on a video game those who follow God level up at the death of their mortal body but those who have lived for themselves they have to “start over” their mortal body is dead and their soul they start over with nothing. As for those who say Lord , Lord but don’t enter into the kingdom, that’s what will happen when the mortal body dies from those who followed false or wrong or delusional thinking they think they are following God but are not. Those can’t enter into the kingdom until they have their dross removed and then they will see Jesus clearly and they will bend the knee and gladly, joyfully confess that Jesus is Lord. They then are subjects of his kingdom not heirs to the kingdom as those who have followed Jesus. Which brings me to the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit which is denying the call of the Holy Spirit , basically it’s like telling the Holy Spirit to get lost who are you to tell me what to do , if you do this you don’t get to see life in the next age till you repent and bend the knee and confess, then you are forgiven and you receive the gift of never ending life. As for Matt 7 and the narrow gate , that’s not talking about heaven and “hell” it’s talking about the life we live on earth in our mortal bodies. The whole chapter is talking about things of this earth now not heaven. The more people who follow Jesus now the better our lives will be but few find it that’s why the world is in such a mess. What you are not seeing is Gods plan , it’s Gods will that none parish, this time down on earth in the mortal body is all about are you going to be part of Gods kingdom or are you going to be a subject of that kingdom. God already has the whole “saved “ thing done In Jesus. It’s not about heaven or “hell” . What you are not seeing is that God said he sees the beginning from the end and he has made it clear that Jesus is the savior of the world, Jesus will get 100% of what he paid for. No place in scripture does it say Jesus is the potential savior and our will is stronger than Gods. Rom 11:32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that he might have mercy on all. 2Cor 5:19 in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting people’s trespass against them, and has given us the message of reconciliation. Rom 5:18 / the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 1Cor 15 21-28 as in Adam all die as in Jesus all will live. Phil 2:10-11 Every knee will bow and every tongue will gladly and joyfully confess that Jesus is Lord. There are other verses that all indicate what God is doing also. So what you are doing is looking only to man’s time in the mortal body and not including the next age, few find Jesus in this mortal time most will not see Jesus as he is till the next age , but they forfeit the inheritance they will be subjects of the kingdom. I differ from most Christian Universal Redemption people in that I believe that those who are subjects of the kingdom will inherit the earth as there never ending life but those who have followed Jesus are residents of heaven (New Jerusalem) . This is the story of scripture Do you think that God didn’t know what he was doing when he created all this or is God so week he can’t get it done and he has to settle for at least some of his children being saved?

In your explanation of Luke 12:10 did you read Luke 12:10?

“And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭12‬:‭10‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

The reason I quoted Luke 12:10 is because I’m very familiar with how universalists twist the parallel passages in Matthew 12 and Mark 3. The problem with your interpretation is that it contradicts what is stated in Luke 12:10. Both passages in Matthew and Mark don’t say anything about blasphemy of the Holy Spirit eventually being forgiven in some other unspoken age, but universalists try to use aion and aionios to claim that it will be forgiven. The problem with this is that Luke 12 doesn’t use aion or aionios, indicating that this is not a temporary condemnation but a permanent one. The language in Luke 12 is that it will not be forgiven period. In Matthew 12 Jesus said not in this age or the age to come. He never said anything about it being forgiven in some other age or in any age. That’s where you’re inserting your theology into the passage. Luke 12:10 makes it absolutely clear that it will never be forgiven at all in any age.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

A couple problems I see with this is that in Matthew 7:21-23 Jesus said not everyone who says Lord Lord will enter the kings of heaven. You’re saying the exact opposite of what He said here. You’re also doing the exact same thing with those who blaspheme the Spirit. Jesus said it will never be forgiven, you’re saying it will. Jesus is the Savior of the world because He has brought salvation to the world and some have chosen to reject it. Your argument about God being so weak that He can’t accomplish it doesn’t take into consideration that saving those who reject Him against their will was never His plan. Surely you can’t deny that God didn’t want anyone to sin or for anyone to reject Him in the first place but it’s still happened regardless of what He wanted. Just like God didn’t want to kill mankind in the flood. Was He too weak to prevent that from happening, or was He grieved by it because He knows that forcing someone to love you has no true value?

On the Matt 7 and the when God says that they won’t enter into the kingdom that’s talking about this age . Very few find God in the mortal body but the rest do find God in the next age. You are making the mistake that you can only accept Jesus while in the mortal body, no place else n scripture does it say that God only pursues you while in the mortal body after that God quits his pursuit of you. Did not Jesus say he would leave the 99 and pursue the lost sheep until he finds it ? Why do you think he quits? As far as blasphemy of Holy Spirit it says you can’t be forgiven in this or the next but after ? It depends on how you define “Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit “ I see it as the Holy Spirit is who leads and guides us to Jesus and if you reject that you cannot enter into the kingdom, you must accept Jesus to be part of his kingdom but in the next age if you still keep rejecting him he can’t let you in until you do, and scripture says all will bend the knee and willingly gladly joyfully confess Jesus is Lord. As for the rest it still comes down to God the Father has all the time he needs to accomplish his will, It’s God will that none parish unless we don’t believe scripture. Gos know all he sees the beginning from the end , do you think that man falling was not part of his plan ? Nothing surprises God he has planned this whole process out to get his whole creation to worship and accept him out of free will and that is exactly what will happen. How does a loving God, In whom there is no darkness, create people who he knows will reject him and he , according to tradition must torture them forever and never let them have a repentance heart? God will redeem his whole creation that’s the plan it’s still ongoing it’s not done yet.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

In your explanation of Luke 12:10 did you read Luke 12:10?

“And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭12‬:‭10‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

The reason I quoted Luke 12:10 is because I’m very familiar with how universalists twist the parallel passages in Matthew 12 and Mark 3. The problem with your interpretation is that it contradicts what is stated in Luke 12:10. Both passages in Matthew and Mark don’t say anything about blasphemy of the Holy Spirit eventually being forgiven in some other unspoken age, but universalists try to use aion and aionios to claim that it will be forgiven. The problem with this is that Luke 12 doesn’t use aion or aionios, indicating that this is not a temporary condemnation but a permanent one. The language in Luke 12 is that it will not be forgiven period. In Matthew 12 Jesus said not in this age or the age to come. He never said anything about it being forgiven in some other age or in any age. That’s where you’re inserting your theology into the passage. Luke 12:10 makes it absolutely clear that it will never be forgiven at all in any age.

It all depends on what you believe the telos of God is and how we prioritize scripture. For most of the western tradition of Christianity, eternal hell is the pillar that your whole belief stands on and if that is removed your whole tradition falls apart. So you place hell and heaven as your telos . I take all the scripture that talks about Jesus being the savior of the world as being true and I believe Gods will that he wants none to parish to be true. These and other verses are the pillars that my faith rests on . The finished work of Jesus that we read says he conquered sin and death, that’s a declaration not a possibility. So I fit the scripture that seems to say God will torture his creation for all eternity as being metaphorical if you describe eternity as never ending. Again it all comes down to your view of God is he a loving Father as Jesus says or is he like the Greek gods who get angry, jealous, changing his mind and if you cross him he will torture you forever, that’s the pagan god , not the God of the Bible. Look at Jude 1:7 God destroyed them with eternal fire , but inEz 16:53-55 God says he will restore them . This is Gods heart it’s all over scripture. Acts 3:21 In Christ is the restoration of all things . Not some things but all things this is Gods telos. Jesus will get 100% of what he paid for he will not be cheated and he can’t fail. This is what my faith is founded on the faith of Jesus to save , not in my ability to jump through the correct hoops and in the correct way , God saves we don’t save ourselves by doing anything.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

I disagree, throughout the entire Bible God has been calling man to repentance in order to receive eternal life and at the same time threatening death as a consequence for failing to repent. Everyone dies a physical death, the death that’s being referred to in these passages is in contrast to eternal life. The point of these passages is that those who don’t repent won’t receive eternal life. The death that’s being referred to is the second death which is the death of the soul which is not a temporal death because it’s in contrast to eternal life. You’re saying that everyone will receive eternal life which is contradictory to every example given about who receives eternal life.

Show me one place in the OT that God told anyone that they would suffer eternal torture, it’s not in there. When Adam fell God said “ dying you will die” God was talking about physical death of the mortal body not eternal torture. Why would God wait 4000 years to tell us about something as important as that if it were true. In the OT all went to Sheol the good and the bad . Jesus went to the grave and preached to the captives and led them to freedom, he has the keys to death and he conquered it on the cross, he undid what Adam did . Acts 3:21-25 Jesus is the restoration of all things not a small percentage but the whole. I really don’t understand why that is so hard to get, but I do know tradition is hard to break. So our offer given to us by God is not heaven or hell but are you going to be part of Gods kingdom or are you going to be a subject of that kingdom, that’s the offer , Jesus already conquered death for all.