Are You *Really* Christians?

[linux.poet]

I'm starting to feel like a broken record, but:

9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

You need both the belief in Christ's resurrection and the submission to Christ's authority which results in action and obedience to Christ's commands. There's no need to argue vis a vis one or the other, both are required for salvation.

Yes, you're talking about carnal Christianity and advocating for all Christians to live an austere Puritan lifestyle. Because that's *real* Christianity.

I thought @Ben Leevey was encouraging people to go into world missions and endure hardship for the sake of Christ, rather than sit around in America playing video games.

 

[ozso]

I thought @Ben Leevey was encouraging people to go into world missions and endure hardship for the sake of Christ, rather than sit around in America playing video games.

Well he didn't saying anything about mission work. This is why I ask people to be specific instead of beating around the bush.

 

[ozso]

As far as age goes, please, if what I say is scriptural, do not discount it because of my age. Just to clarify, I did put the video together. I put them together every day from this site: Grace Gems!

Your age is an issue in wanting to know if you practice what you preach. Which is often what one wonders when someone is saying most Christians aren't living up to a certain standard. But since you've only just become an adult, in your case the question is moot.

And as I could see in your posts, and as that website confirms ("Today's Puritan Audio Devotional"), you're proceeding from the Puritan perspective.

So really, in your case being specific would have been you saying, "I'm a Puritan. And being a Puritan means *really* being a Christian. So all Christians should become Puritans".

 

[chevyontheriver]

Friend, I did not make this video to go against you.

I get that.

I believe praying with the idea Mary is interceding for you is not genuine prayer at all, and I don't believe that anyone who truly believes Catholic doctrine can have put their faith in Christ.

What you believe is what you believe. All the people who pray the rosary nonetheless are praying for you. "Pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death." They're praying for you, me, everyone else, themselves.

You don't have to think Catholics are Christians. But if, when you die, you see a place with a bunch of Catholics, would you presume that to be hell and decide to go to the other place? I think your answer would be a hasty 'yes'.

 

[chevyontheriver]

And as I could see in your posts, and as that website confirms ("Today's Puritan Audio Devotional"), you're proceeding from the Puritan perspective.

So really, in your case being specific would have been you saying, "I'm a Puritan. And being a Puritan means *really* being a Christian. So all Christians should become Puritans".

Is this a case that non-Puritans are also non-Christians?

 

[ozso]

Is this a case that non-Puritans are also non-Christians?

That's up to the individual's view I suppose. I'm sure there are Catholics who say non-Catholics are also non-Christians. I'm not sure what the official written Puritan stance is. If there is such a thing.

 

[chevyontheriver]

That's up to the individual's view I suppose.

I suppose.

I'm sure there are Catholics who say non-Catholics are also non-Christians.

There would be very few of those.

I'm not sure what the official written Puritan stance is. If there is such a thing.

I donno. I was hoping Ben would chime in on that.

 

[ozso]

There would be very few of those.

Hopefully. Likewise I'm sure there are Pentecostals who say or think that Christians who don't speak in tongues aren't really Christians. Etc.

I donno. I was hoping Ben would chime in on that.

That would be best.

 

[JSRG]

I'm not sure what the official written Puritan stance is. If there is such a thing.

There is no "official written Puritan stance" because it's like asking for an "official written evangelical stance." Like how "evangelical" is used nowadays, Puritan wasn't not a specific denomination or group, it's more of a vague term where even the actual definition of it is debated, but generally was used to refer to groups that thought the Church of England retained too many Catholic practices after it split from Rome. It largely fell out of fashion after the 17th century. There seems to have been more recently somewhat of an attempted revival of the term, with some people identifying as it, but in my experience it's largely just a synonym for "Reformed" (itself largely a synonym of "Calvinist"). All websites I've seen that identify as "Puritan" are Reformed.

Since modern people who refer to themselves as Puritans are basically just saying they're Reformed, if you're looking for an "official written stance" in that sense, the main Reformed/Calvinist declaration is the 1646 Westminster Confession of Faith.

 

[JEBofChristTheLord]

Since modern people who refer to themselves as Puritans are basically just saying they're Reformed,

Not in my experiences. I have had dialogue with three different people who referred to themselves emphatically as Puritans, and all of them referred as authorities, to specific people who had called themselves Puritans. All of the folks with whom I had discussion resided in the northeast USA, so this may be an artifact of geographical and cultural insularity.

 

[Ben Leevey]

You mean pretentious?

It's actually your parent's house, right?

Becoming? Horatius Bonar wrote about it around a 150 years ago.

No, I meant presumptuous.

Correct. It is my parents house.

This final one here is a rather interesting logical twist. Bonar having written this 150 years ago does not mean that a certain aspect of our issue cannot be "becoming".

 

[Ben Leevey]

You mean the Christian population?

This question is a tad unclear. Could you expound what you're asking?

People in general or Christians?

Professing Christians. Read to the end of the message.

Yes, you're talking about carnal Christianity and advocating for all Christians to live an austere Puritan lifestyle. Because that's *real* Christianity.

Friend, I think, if I where to guess, you live in a nice house, and probably a lifestyle that you want to defend. I don't think I have advocated anything beyond common godliness. If I have please show me where. If it's Bonar's words you don't like, you'll have to write Him a piece of your mind.

 

[Ben Leevey]

I thought @Ben Leevey was encouraging people to go into world missions and endure hardship for the sake of Christ, rather than sit around in America playing video games.

You pretty close to hit it. Amen brother!

 

[Ben Leevey]

Your age is an issue in wanting to know if you practice what you preach. Which is often what one wonders when someone is saying most Christians aren't living up to a certain standard. But since you've only just become an adult, in your case the question is moot.

And as I could see in your posts, and as that website confirms ("Today's Puritan Audio Devotional"), you're proceeding from the Puritan perspective.

So really, in your case being specific would have been you saying, "I'm a Puritan. And being a Puritan means *really* being a Christian. So all Christians should become Puritans".

I admire many things about the Puritans, but they where not perfect. For instance, I would not baptize the babies. I would not hold to any confessions. Some key differences w/ the 1689 LBC. Whether I live live what I'm putting forth or not (and, as far as I can think, I strive by God's grace to live what I've put forth here). As far as the website goes, what do you expect me to post? I have written a few of my own things, but I prefer to put out higher quality content written by those wiser than myself, who knew more of Christ.

I am not a Puritan, as far as timelines go, that's impossible. If any man is, I must say it is dear brother Paul Washer, but then again, he can't be because of time periods.

I wish I knew Christ like some of the Puritans did!

 

[Ben Leevey]

I get that.

What you believe is what you believe. All the people who pray the rosary nonetheless are praying for you. "Pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death." They're praying for you, me, everyone else, themselves.

You don't have to think Catholics are Christians. But if, when you die, you see a place with a bunch of Catholics, would you presume that to be hell and decide to go to the other place? I think your answer would be a hasty 'yes'.

I won't be concerned with Catholics on that day. Christ will be all my sight!

 

[Ben Leevey]

'm not sure what the official written Puritan stance is.

Overall, that would not at all have been the stance. Should you really speak so negatively of those you know so little about?

 

[ozso]

Friend, I think, if I where to guess, you live in a nice house, and probably a lifestyle that you want to defend.

This is a where I have lived for many years. It was built as a cheap hotel in 1917. It features very small rooms only equipped with a small sink. And I drive a dented up 25 year old Toyota.

Does this make me more godly?

 

[ozso]

I admire many things about the Puritans, but they where not perfect. For instance, I would not baptize the babies. I would not hold to any confessions. Some key differences w/ the 1689 LBC. Whether I live live what I'm putting forth or not (and, as far as I can think, I strive by God's grace to live what I've put forth here). As far as the website goes, what do you expect me to post? I have written a few of my own things, but I prefer to put out higher quality content written by those wiser than myself, who knew more of Christ.

I am not a Puritan, as far as timelines go, that's impossible. If any man is, I must say it is dear brother Paul Washer, but then again, he can't be because of time periods.

I wish I knew Christ like some of the Puritans did!

One can still follow a Puritan code these says. Why else would that website have "Today's Puritan Audio Devotional"?

Overall, that would not at all have been the stance. Should you really speak so negatively of those you know so little about?

What have I said about it that's negative?

 

[linux.poet]

AMBASSADOR HAT​

As far as age goes, please, if what I say is scriptural, do not discount it because of my age. Just to clarify, I did put the video together. I put them together every day from this site: Grace Gems!

Friendly reminder for this then:

Youtube videos, blogs, and offsite materials written by members may be posted to further conversation and provide relevant topics. There are however some restrictions. You may not participate in Christian Forums primarily to drive traffic to your videos, blogs, or articles. Staff will use their own discretion as a team in deciding if your participation here is being used for this purpose and it may result in staff action.

At this point, however, given the amount of engagement posts you've written to talk over your video's subjects, I'm not particularly concerned about staff actions being taken against you at this time. Carry on.

AMBASSADOR HAT OFF​

As for me, I should note that I'm the one who actually lives out of my parents' house and also drives a 24 year old Toyota. My lack of affluence, however, isn't by choice, so I can't really describe that as moral virtue.

Anyone who tills the land will have plenty of bread, but one who follows worthless pursuits will have plenty of poverty.

I honestly want my own land to feed myself and some Christian people in need who I know. Once I have that land, I don't think that will count as some kind of botch on my virtue. We are called to step outside of the patterns of this world in whatever way that brings glory to Christ, not to pursue poverty because we think that makes us better in God's eyes.

Remove far from me falsehood and lying;
give me neither poverty nor riches;
feed me with the food that I need,
9 lest I be full and deny you
and say, “Who is the Lord?”
or I be poor and steal
and profane the name of my God.

The Scripture teaches us a balanced approach between wealth and poverty. The sluggard is rebuked in Proverbs, and the rich are rebuked in James. Either extreme is unhealthy. Whatever financial means that allows us to accomplish God's purposes should be our goal, I would think.

 

[ozso]

There is no "official written Puritan stance" because it's like asking for an "official written evangelical stance." Like how "evangelical" is used nowadays, Puritan wasn't not a specific denomination or group, it's more of a vague term where even the actual definition of it is debated, but generally was used to refer to groups that thought the Church of England retained too many Catholic practices after it split from Rome. It largely fell out of fashion after the 17th century. There seems to have been more recently somewhat of an attempted revival of the term, with some people identifying as it, but in my experience it's largely just a synonym for "Reformed" (itself largely a synonym of "Calvinist"). All websites I've seen that identify as "Puritan" are Reformed.

Since modern people who refer to themselves as Puritans are basically just saying they're Reformed, if you're looking for an "official written stance" in that sense, the main Reformed/Calvinist declaration is the 1646 Westminster Confession of Faith.

Well I knew it was Calvinist. And I did say if there is such a thing.