Mary was a good person and had a sinful nature like all of us.

[David Lamb]

1 Timothy 5:8 But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

Will Jesus still save a Christian who has denied his faith by his own actions, and he does not repent of his sins before he dies?

1 Timothy 5:8 doesn't say that such a person is an unbeliever. He or she is an imperfect believer, but then, that is true of all Christians. Every time we fall into sin we "deny the faith" by our sinful words, thoughts or actions.

 

[NotUrAvgGuy]

1 Timothy 5:8 doesn't say that such a person is an unbeliever. He or she is an imperfect believer, but then, that is true of all Christians. Every time we fall into sin we "deny the faith" by our sinful words, thoughts or actions.

The context of the verse has nothing to do with salvation:

3 Give proper recognition to those widows who are really in need. 4 But if a widow has children or grandchildren, these should learn first of all to put their religion into practice by caring for their own family and so repaying their parents and grandparents, for this is pleasing to God. 5 The widow who is really in need and left all alone puts her hope in God and continues night and day to pray and to ask God for help. 6 But the widow who lives for pleasure is dead even while she lives. 7 Give the people these instructions, so that no one may be open to blame. 8 Anyone who does not provide for their relatives, and especially for their own household, has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever. (1 Tim. 5) (emphasis added)

Paul is addressing how widows should be cared for. He states that family should take care of family, and if you fail to do so, you have acted contrary to the faith and are worse than an unbeliever. There is an old saying that there is "honor among thieves." The Mafia may commit all many crimes, including murder, but are known for their love of family. Caring for family is a universal human value that cuts across cultures and religions. A believer should treat family as well as the wordly. Paul passes these instructions so that they may not be "open to blame." A hallmark of Christianity is our love for one another. Those who fail in this area are open to blame. It does not say open to losing their salvation. To say such a person has lost their salvation is reading something into the text that is not there.

 

[David Lamb]

The context of the verse has nothing to do with salvation:

3 Give proper recognition to those widows who are really in need. 4 But if a widow has children or grandchildren, these should learn first of all to put their religion into practice by caring for their own family and so repaying their parents and grandparents, for this is pleasing to God. 5 The widow who is really in need and left all alone puts her hope in God and continues night and day to pray and to ask God for help. 6 But the widow who lives for pleasure is dead even while she lives. 7 Give the people these instructions, so that no one may be open to blame. 8 Anyone who does not provide for their relatives, and especially for their own household, has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever. (1 Tim. 5) (emphasis added)

Paul is addressing how widows should be cared for. He states that family should take care of family, and if you fail to do so, you have acted contrary to the faith and are worse than an unbeliever. There is an old saying that there is "honor among thieves." The Mafia may commit all many crimes, including murder, but are known for their love of family. Caring for family is a universal human value that cuts across cultures and religions. A believer should treat family as well as the worldly. Paul passes these instructions so that they may not be "open to blame." A hallmark of Christianity is our love for one another. Those who fail in this area are open to blame. It does not say open to losing their salvation. To say such a person has lost their salvation is reading something into the text that is not there.

Thank you. I don't disagree with what you have written, and I hope you didn't take my earlier post as meaning that I did. We seem to be saying the same thing, though you have put it better than me.

 

[NotUrAvgGuy]

Thank you. I don't disagree with what you have written, and I hope you didn't take my earlier post as meaning that I did. We seem to be saying the same thing, though you have put it better than me.

Not at all, David I was just adding another voice to yours.

 

[David Lamb]

Not at all, David I was just adding another voice to yours.

Thank you!

 

[Jan001]

Man's free will is always subject to God's sovereign will. Our choices are free from our perspective but always under God's will. God knows the future because He preordains the future. Pharoah was raised up by God to the means of Israel's deliverance. We are all born spiritually dead. Some people liken salvation to a drowning man who is thrown a life preserver. It lands right next to him but he still has to exercise his free will and reach out and talk hold of it. If he does not, he will surely drown. The correct picture is that the man has already drowned and lies dead at the bottom of the ocean. To be saved God must first breath new life into him, raise him to the surface, and put the life preserver in his hands. Had God not done those things, the dead man could never have exercised his "free will" and chosen salvation.

Our spiritual nature is that of death. Our spirit is in bondage to sin and our nature is entirely depraved. We cannot freely choose good and faith. God must first choose us and change our nature. Then, in accordance to our new nature, we will choose faith. Those whom God chooses He does not cast aside. Once they are chosen, they are given a new nature that will persevere in faith. Yes, God wants all men to believe and be saved but He does not give all men such faith. If He did, none would perish.

Before looking at any verses, consider the process of salvation. We are told that God chose us (the elect) before the foundation of the world. That "while we were yet sinners", Christ died for us. God already knew our lives from beginning to end before He chose us for salvation. He already knew every moment of our lives. He doesn't save us wondering if we will continue in the faith. He already knows. How does God know? God knows because God ordains the future. Sometimes we think God knows the future by having some ability to "peek into the future" like a cosmic seer but that is not the case at all. God knows the future because God ordains it. In that case, why would God save someone He knows will walk away from salvation? What would be the point?

This begs the question of where does salvation come from. Some people believe God does everything to make salvation possible but then leaves it up to us to choose. Even after we choose salvation, He still leaves it up to us to choose whether or not to continue in salvation. God enables salvation but leaves the choice up to us. The other view is that man is born dead in sin and will never, on his own, choose salvation. Man is so utterly depraved that he cannot and will not repent and choose God. His nature and his will are in hopeless bondage to sin. He cannot help but act according to that nature. What must happen first is for God to change that man's nature through the process of regeneration. In regeneration, God gives that man a new nature that will (will not can) respond in genuine saving faith. Now that man walks according to his new nature and that nature can never reject God and walk away from salvation. The man still is a sinner and still fights sin but never loses that which God gave him.

Now let's look at a passage in Romans:

28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. (Romans 8:28-30)

Notice the progression. First God foreknew them. The word "foreknew" means "To foreknow, to know beforehand." As Strong's put's it, "The concept of foreknowledge in the biblical context is closely tied to God's sovereignty and His eternal nature. Unlike human foreknowledge, which is speculative and uncertain, God's foreknowledge is perfect and certain, rooted in His eternal purpose and will." This tells us that God already knew everything about them including every moment of their future lives. In addition to foreknowing them, He also "predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son." The world predestined means, "foreordain, predetermine, mark out beforehand." What did God predestine them to? "To be conformed to the image of his Son." Why does God do this? "In order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers." In other words, God has predetermined that some are to be made Christlike and be spiritual brothers to Jesus Christ who is the firstborn. If God has predetermined these people will be spiritual brothers (and sisters) to Christ, why would He leave their eternal destiny up in the air and subject to their continued obedience? If you set someone apart, from before their creation, for a task then you equip them for that task so they cannot fail.

Those predestined He calls. Calling is the action of the Holy Spirit bringing men to Christ. That they respond positively is foreordained for he goes on to justify them. It doesn't say that he calls all men and some are then justified. Those He calls He justifies. This is the inward call of the Holy Spirit that is irresistible. All men are called outwardly. All men are responsible to respond to that call but, born in total spiritual depravity, then cannot respond with a yes. Only those whom the Spirit calls inwardly can. Only those whom God has predestined. Those He justifies. Justification is when God takes our sins and puts them on Christ and takes His righteousness and imputes it to us. Some have called this the Great Exchange. He takes our sin and give us His righteousness. When then stand righteous before God. Not based on our own righteousness but on the imputed righteousness of Christ. Some say that "justify" means "just as if" as in "just as if we had never sinned and were righteous." It is a judicial pronouncement where we are declared righteous. Notice this is done before we have lived out our life. It is not based on how worthy a life we live nor pronounced at the end of our life. It can be declared and decided after we profess saving faith because it is not our righteousness but Christ's.

The final step is that we are glorified. Notice no conditions are given. We are not glorified "if we persist" or "if we prove worthy." This has all be preordained or predestined. As Scripture says, "For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus." (Philippians 1:6) Perfect means to complete. Who completes it? "He who began a good work in you." God begins the good work and god completes it. God chooses us. God calls us. God gives us faith. God justifies us. God sanctifies us. God completes His work. It is all of God and because it is all of God, it cannot fail.

This is important to understand before we look at verses that would seem to suggest we can lose our salvation. If it is God's work, and not dependent on us, it cannot fail. We may fail God, but God will not fail us. Remember, God predestined us for a reason. God's purposes never fail. God does not will a thing to happen then it doesn't. Not if it is His active will.

Part II follows​

God is omniscient; he has total knowledge.

Before the foundation of the world, God foreknew the people he found still faithful to his commandments at the time of their death. Revelation 2:10

Foreknew is a word used by God to indicate only the people who are still righteous at the time of their death.

God will claim that he does not know the unrighteous people at the time of their death. (Luke 13:25-27) He will even claim that he never knew them. Matthew 7:20-23, Ezekiel 33:10-20

The people who God foreknew to be faithful until death, he predestined these people to eternal life. These people are the people he called, justified, and glorified.

Before the foundation of the world, God did not arbitrarily predestine some people to heaven, and he did not arbitrarily condemn other people to hell.

John 5:28-29 Do not be amazed at this, because the hour is coming in which all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and will come out, those who have done good deeds to the resurrection of life, but those who have done wicked deeds to the resurrection of condemnation.

 

[Jan001]

1 Timothy 5:8 doesn't say that such a person is an unbeliever. He or she is an imperfect believer, but then, that is true of all Christians. Every time we fall into sin we "deny the faith" by our sinful words, thoughts or actions.

We deny Jesus Christ when we do evil works and if we do not repent of these evil works before we die, Jesus denies us entrance into heaven. Titus 1:16. Matthew 10:33

Unless we repent of all our "sin which leads to death" sins before we die, we will not inherit eternal life. 1 John 1:9

Sins which leads to death (eternal condemnation):

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor ]sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

There are two types of sin: sin that does not lead to death and sin that does lead to death (eternal condemnation).

1 John 5:16-17 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death.

 

[Jan001]

1 Timothy 5:8 doesn't say that such a person is an unbeliever.

Jesus said he was worse than an unbeliever. Is this worse than an unbeliever still saved? No. If he does not repent of this sin before he dies, he will not inherit eternal life.

What punishment will this worse than an unbeliever receive from God if he does not repent before he dies? He will receive God's vengeance.

Hebrews 10:28-30 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The Lord will judge His people.”

 

[Jan001]

Eternal salvation is not a once and done event. It is a lifelong process. Eternal salvation is difficult to obtain. (Luke 9:23) The state of my soul (saved or not saved) at the time of my death determines where I will spend eternity. Jesus is not the Lord of unrepentant evildoers. 2 Thessalonians 1:7-8

Hebrews 5:9 And having been perfected, He (Jesus) became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,

Luke 6:46 But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say?

Luke 13:23-28
Then one said to Him, “Lord, are there few who are saved?”
And He said to them, 24 “Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25 When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open for us,’ and He will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know you, where you are from,’ 26 then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets.’ 27 But He will say, ‘I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity.’ 28 There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and yourselves thrust out.

Matthew 7:13-14 Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

Accepting Jesus Christ as one's Lord and Savior is easy to do, but it does not guarantee eternal life to a person. Jesus said that few people are saved compared to the many who are not saved. Why is this? Jesus said that eternal life is difficult to obtain. Jesus saves only the people who obey his commandments. It is only these people who truly love him. John 14:21, 1 John 5:3

James 1:22 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.

What is the word? The commandments of Jesus are his word.

Some of the word of Jesus:

Mark 10:17-19 Now as He was going out on the road, one came running, knelt before Him, and asked Him, “Good Teacher, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?”
18 So Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. 19 You know the commandments: ‘Do not commit adultery,’ ‘Do not murder,’ ‘Do not steal,’ ‘Do not bear false witness,’ ‘Do not defraud,’ ‘Honor your father and your mother.’ ”

Luke 10:25-28 And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”
26 He said to him, “What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?”
27 So he answered and said, “ ‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’ and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’ ”
28 And He said to him, “You have answered rightly; do this and you will live.”

 

[NotUrAvgGuy]

God is omniscient; he has total knowledge.

Before the foundation of the world, God foreknew the people he found still faithful to his commandments at the time of their death. Revelation 2:10

Foreknew is a word used by God to indicate only the people who are still righteous at the time of their death.

God will claim that he does not know the unrighteous people at the time of their death. (Luke 13:25-27) He will even claim that he never knew them. Matthew 7:20-23, Ezekiel 33:10-20

The people who God foreknew to be faithful until death, he predestined these people to eternal life. These people are the people he called, justified, and glorified.

Before the foundation of the world, God did not arbitrarily predestine some people to heaven, and he did not arbitrarily condemn other people to hell.

John 5:28-29 Do not be amazed at this, because the hour is coming in which all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and will come out, those who have done good deeds to the resurrection of life, but those who have done wicked deeds to the resurrection of condemnation.

In Revelation chapter 2, John contrasts those who overcome (true believers) with those who do not. The overcomer remains faithful to their last breath as opposed to the liars, idolaters, cowards, and others. He is encouraging them to remain faithful as that church has for over 40 years. He does not warn them that if they don't they will lose their salvation. This is a word of encouragement, not a warning to losing salvation.

I have commented before that while salvation is by faith alone (and not works lest no man should boast), works are the fruit, or evidence, of our salvation and the easiest way for us to test ourselves. Those saved start a process of sanctification and works that God has prepared beforehand for them to walk in. True believers produce good fruit and their lives will be characterized by it. False believers will not. Our passage to heaven is not based on whether or not we do good deeds. We will have good deeds if we are true believers. God saves us by faith alone, but that faith is never alone. It produces the fruit of good works.

You suggest God would be acting abitrarily if He predestined some, not all, based on His good will and pleasure and not based on a foreknowledge of their future works. First, all would agree God has foreknowledge but how? Does God simply "peek ahead", see what we choices we make, and then predstines us accordingly? That would not be predstination. If something is going to happen anyhow, without God's intervening, then how is that predestination? It is not. That would be simple foreknowledge.

29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified. (Romans 8)

You wouldn't need the word "predestined" in that passage in that case. It would read "These whom he foreknew, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified, and these whom He justified, He also glorified."

Your understanding would require inserting the word "some" into this famous passage. It would read like this:

"For those whom He foreknew, some He also predestined...." Some would be called. Some would be justified. Some would be glorified. It does not read, "For those whom He foreknew would receive the Gospel and lead faithful, repentent lives to the end, ..."

God foreknows because God forordains. In your view, God really doesn't have control over who believes and endures and who does not. He can look ahead in time and see our choices but He has no control over them. How can a sovereign God not have complete control over everything? How can we count on any of God's promises if He is not in complete control? You say if He actively choses some, and not others, He is being arbitrary (and by inference, unfair).

19You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles. (Romans 9)

Paul has answered you. "...who are you, O man, who answers back to God." Does God not have the right to do as He pleases? Are we not all guilty before the righteous, holy standard of God? Are any of us worthy of foregiveness and salvation? Do you think God capable of being unfair? If we all deserve hell, then chosing some for salvation is an act of mercy. Mercy means "unmerited favor." It would not be mercy if God chose those who would lead righteous lives on their own. We are born unrighteous and incapable of pleasing God. He has to predestine some, save them, regenerate them, and cause them to lead good lives. If He did not, no one would be saved. The above passage says that the "vessels of wrath" were "prepared for destruction" and the "vessels of mercy", "He prepared beforehand for glody." That is predestination. It is making a decision then making that decision happen.

Do not confuse statements with warnings or warnings to unbelievers or tares in the church, with threats of losing one's salvation God back to the list of verses I posted on how our salvation has been sealed, protected, and preserved. Praise God!

 

[Jan001]

Do not confuse statements with warnings or warnings to unbelievers or tares in the church, with threats of losing one's salvation God back to the list of verses I posted on how our salvation has been sealed, protected, and preserved. Praise God!

True faith in God requires continual conversion and continual obedience until death.

True belief in God requires continual obedience until death. Revelation 2:10

1 Peter 4:17 For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?


2 Thessalonians 1:7b-9 when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

You may continue to believe and teach that once you are saved, you are always saved.

I will continue to believe and teach that the gate that leads to life is narrow; difficult is the way which leads to eternal life, and therefore few people find it. Matthew 7:14, Luke 9:23

 

[Jan001]

You suggest God would be acting abitrarily if He predestined some, not all, based on His good will and pleasure and not based on a foreknowledge of their future works. First, all would agree God has foreknowledge but how? Does God simply "peek ahead", see what we choices we make, and then predstines us accordingly? That would not be predstination. If something is going to happen anyhow, without God's intervening, then how is that predestination? It is not. That would be simple foreknowledge.

Romans 8:29 because those he foreknew he also predestined to become conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Predestine: appoint beforehand according to foreknowledge

1 Peter 1:1-2 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to all the exiles of the Dispersion who are now living in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 chosen in the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification by the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and to be sprinkled with his blood: may grace and peace be yours in abundance.

Those people in the Dispersion who would not be faithful until their death were not chosen in the foreknowledge of God the Father to inherit eternal life. Ezekiel 33:13


Before the foundation of the world, God foreknew only the people who he found still faithful to his commandments at the time of their death. It is only these faithful-until-death people that he predestined to eternal life.


What happens to backsliding, unrepentant Christians when they die?

God will claim that he does not know the Christians that he did not find still faithful to his commandments at the time of their death.

Luke 13:25-27 “When once the master of the house has gotten up and shut the door, you may find yourself standing outside knocking on the door and begging, ‘Lord, open the door for us.’ He will say in reply, ‘I do not know where you come from.’ 26 Then you will protest, ‘We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.’ 27 But he will say, ‘I do not know where you come from. Depart from me, all you evildoers!’

God will even claim that he never knew them.

Matthew 7:22-23 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not perform many miracles in your name?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers!’

Luke 6:46 Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ but fail to do what I tell you?

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my heavenly Father.

What is the will of the Father?

Luke 10:25-28 And behold, a lawyer came forward to test Jesus by asking, “Teacher, what must I do to gain eternal life?” 26 Jesus said to him, “What is written in the Law? How do you read it?” 27 He answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.” 28 Jesus then said to him, “You have answered correctly. Do this and you will live.”

 

[Jan001]

God foreknows because God forordains. In your view, God really doesn't have control over who believes and endures and who does not. He can look ahead in time and see our choices but He has no control over them. How can a sovereign God not have complete control over everything? How can we count on any of God's promises if He is not in complete control? You say if He actively choses some, and not others, He is being arbitrary (and by inference, unfair).

I disagree.
God foreordained that all people would have the freedom to either obey or disobey his commandments. However, obedience leads to eternal life and disobedience leads to eternal hellfire.

1 John 3:10 This is what distinguishes the children of God from the children of the devil: anyone who fails to live righteously does not belong to God; neither does anyone who fails to love a brother.

1 John 5:2-3
This is how we know
that we love the children of God:
by loving God and obeying his commandments.
3 For the love of God is this:
that we keep his commandments.
And his commandments are not burdensome,


Jude 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God as you await our Lord Jesus Christ in his mercy, who will grant you eternal life.

1 John 2:4-6
Whoever says, “I know him,”
but does not keep his commandments,
is a liar,
and the truth is not in him.
5 However, the love of God is truly perfected
in the one who obeys his word.
This is how we can be certain
that we are in union with him:
6 whoever claims to abide in him
must live just as he himself lived.

What happens to liars, these Christians who not keep God's commandments until they die?

Revelation 21:8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the depraved, the murderers, the sexually immoral, the sorcerers, the idolaters, and liars of every kind, their place is the fiery lake of burning sulfur, which is the second death.

 

[NotUrAvgGuy]

True faith in God requires continual conversion and continual obedience until death.

True belief in God requires continual obedience until death. Revelation 2:10

1 Peter 4:17 For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?


2 Thessalonians 1:7b-9 when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

You may continue to believe and teach that once you are saved, you are always saved.

I will continue to believe and teach that the gate that leads to life is narrow; difficult is the way which leads to eternal life, and therefore few people find it. Matthew 7:14, Luke 9:23

These verses speak of judgmentt on non-believers. Yes, believers will be judged, but a judgment of works for rewards not a judgment of eternal life. Those who do not know God, cannot obey the gospel and those who do know God, will.

You claim God requires continual obedience until death but all sin and no one will stay pure until death. The Bible gives no lists of "venial vs mortal" sins and all sins are forgivable save unbelief. Yes, we are to confess our sins but confession does not require a priest and is not a sacrament. It is an admission of guilt and a request of forgiveness between a sinner and God.

Narrow is the way because many are called but few are chosen.

 

[NotUrAvgGuy]

Romans 8:29 because those he foreknew he also predestined to become conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Predestine: appoint beforehand according to foreknowledge

1 Peter 1:1-2 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to all the exiles of the Dispersion who are now living in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 chosen in the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification by the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and to be sprinkled with his blood: may grace and peace be yours in abundance.

Those people in the Dispersion who would not be faithful until their death were not chosen in the foreknowledge of God the Father to inherit eternal life. Ezekiel 33:13


Before the foundation of the world, God foreknew only the people who he found still faithful to his commandments at the time of their death. It is only these faithful-until-death people that he predestined to eternal life.


What happens to backsliding, unrepentant Christians when they die?

God will claim that he does not know the Christians that he did not find still faithful to his commandments at the time of their death.

Luke 13:25-27 “When once the master of the house has gotten up and shut the door, you may find yourself standing outside knocking on the door and begging, ‘Lord, open the door for us.’ He will say in reply, ‘I do not know where you come from.’ 26 Then you will protest, ‘We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.’ 27 But he will say, ‘I do not know where you come from. Depart from me, all you evildoers!’

God will even claim that he never knew them.

Matthew 7:22-23 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not perform many miracles in your name?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers!’

Luke 6:46 Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ but fail to do what I tell you?

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my heavenly Father.

What is the will of the Father?

Luke 10:25-28 And behold, a lawyer came forward to test Jesus by asking, “Teacher, what must I do to gain eternal life?” 26 Jesus said to him, “What is written in the Law? How do you read it?” 27 He answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.” 28 Jesus then said to him, “You have answered correctly. Do this and you will live.”

There is no such thing as an unrepentant Christian. Such a person was never a Christian to begin with. That is why Jesus will say to them, "I never knew you." Not, "I knew you but you turned away from me." He never knew them. They were never found in Christ. They never had the Holy Spirit at work in them to enable them to repent and obey. These again are the tares. They practiced an outward appearance of faith but were inwardly never saved. They made a show of faith and thus their protestations that "did we not prophesy in your name." The fact that they never did what He told them to do is evidence they were never saved. We know from Paul that salvation is by faith alone, not works. You cananot now add works to it. Works follow faith and are an evidence of it but the not the basis of salvation.

The rich young ruler was looking to be justified by his good works. Jesus reminded him that it was not enough to do good things but to love God with all your heart, soul, strength, and mind. That is faith. You cannot do those things and not have faith. Loving your neighbor is a natural outcome of such a heart. You have to put these verses together with all the other verses on salvation.

 

[Jan001]

These verses speak of judgmentt on non-believers. Yes, believers will be judged, but a judgment of works for rewards not a judgment of eternal life. Those who do not know God, cannot obey the gospel and those who do know God, will.

You claim God requires continual obedience until death but all sin and no one will stay pure until death. The Bible gives no lists of "venial vs mortal" sins and all sins are forgivable save unbelief. Yes, we are to confess our sins but confession does not require a priest and is not a sacrament. It is an admission of guilt and a request of forgiveness between a sinner and God.

Narrow is the way because many are called but few are chosen.

Must people love God in order to spend eternity with him in heaven?

 

[Jan001]

There is no such thing as an unrepentant Christian. Such a person was never a Christian to begin with. That is why Jesus will say to them, "I never knew you." Not, "I knew you but you turned away from me." He never knew them. They were never found in Christ. They never had the Holy Spirit at work in them to enable them to repent and obey. These again are the tares. They practiced an outward appearance of faith but were inwardly never saved. They made a show of faith and thus their protestations that "did we not prophesy in your name." The fact that they never did what He told them to do is evidence they were never saved. We know from Paul that salvation is by faith alone, not works. You cananot now add works to it. Works follow faith and are an evidence of it but the not the basis of salvation.

The rich young ruler was looking to be justified by his good works. Jesus reminded him that it was not enough to do good things but to love God with all your heart, soul, strength, and mind. That is faith. You cannot do those things and not have faith. Loving your neighbor is a natural outcome of such a heart. You have to put these verses together with all the other verses on salvation.

The Bible states:

1 Corinthians 5:1-5 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that is not found even among pagans; for a man is living with his father’s wife. 2 And you are arrogant! Should you not rather have mourned, so that he who has done this would have been removed from among you?
3 For though absent in body, I am present in spirit; and as if present I have already pronounced judgment 4 in the name of the Lord Jesus on the man who has done such a thing. When you are assembled, and my spirit is present with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5 you are to hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.

Paul excommunicated this Christian man so that hopefully he would decide to repent before his death and thereby be saved.

Paul disciplined himself so that he would not sin and thereby be disqualified for eternal life.

1 Corinthians 9:27 but I punish my body and enslave it, so that after proclaiming to others I myself should not be disqualified.

 

[NotUrAvgGuy]

The Bible states:

1 Corinthians 5:1-5 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that is not found even among pagans; for a man is living with his father’s wife. 2 And you are arrogant! Should you not rather have mourned, so that he who has done this would have been removed from among you?
3 For though absent in body, I am present in spirit; and as if present I have already pronounced judgment 4 in the name of the Lord Jesus on the man who has done such a thing. When you are assembled, and my spirit is present with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5 you are to hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.

Paul excommunicated this Christian man so that hopefully he would decide to repent before his death and thereby be saved.

Paul disciplined himself so that he would not sin and thereby be disqualified for eternal life.

1 Corinthians 9:27 but I punish my body and enslave it, so that after proclaiming to others I myself should not be disqualified.

In 1 Cor 9, Paul is using imagery from an athletic contest and those competing for a prize. He contrasts a perishable prize, for which those athletes competed for, and an imperishable prize waiting for us in heaven. The "race" that Paul is "running" is the race of his ministry to bring people to faith in Jesus Christ. What he fears is being disqualified from ministry. The passage is not dealing with salvation. Paul wants to finish his race. He wants to be faithful and useful to the Lord until the day of his death. He does not want to be disqualified from ministry and no longer be useful to God. Our crown is imperishable and waiting for us in heaven. It is not a perishable crown that can be lost. The context is not eternal life. It is about being faitful or useful to God.

Being "handed over to Satan" does not mean the man has lost his salvation. Such "handing over" is punishment or consequences that God sometimes uses to bring us to repentance. The Bible says God chastizes those whom He loves. This man was to be excluded from the care of the church while He sought repentance. He might even die as a result, but his soul would be saved as Satan cannot touch our soul. Being ex-communicated from the church is not the same as losing salvation. It is the final step in churc discipline (Matthew 18) meant to drive us to repentance.

You must understand such statements in the greater context of the Scriptures that teach we cannot lose our salvation. We can be disciplined, we can be disqualified from ministry, but we cannot lose our salvation. God does not choose then unchoose. He will give us the grace to repent even if we must suffer on the path to repentance.

 

[Jan001]

You must understand such statements in the greater context of the Scriptures that teach we cannot lose our salvation. We can be disciplined, we can be disqualified from ministry, but we cannot lose our salvation. God does not choose then unchoose. He will give us the grace to repent even if we must suffer on the path to repentance.

You do not believe that a son (or daughter) can be disinherited by his (or her) father. I do believe that a son or daughter can be disinherited.

Ephesians 5:5-7
Be sure of this, that no fornicator or impure person, or one who is greedy (that is, an idolater), has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes on those who are disobedient. 7 Therefore do not be associated with them.

1 Corinthians 6:8-10
But you yourselves wrong and defraud—and believers at that.
9 Do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived! Fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, male prostitutes, sodomites, 10 thieves, the greedy, drunkards, revilers, robbers—none of these will inherit the kingdom of God.

Scripture shows us over and over that believers can lose their salvation by their own wrongdoing. You can, however, continue in your belief that a Christian cannot lose his salvation.

 

[NotUrAvgGuy]

You do not believe that a son (or daughter) can be disinherited by his (or her) father. I do believe that a son or daughter can be disinherited.

Ephesians 5:5-7
Be sure of this, that no fornicator or impure person, or one who is greedy (that is, an idolater), has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes on those who are disobedient. 7 Therefore do not be associated with them.

1 Corinthians 6:8-10
But you yourselves wrong and defraud—and believers at that.
9 Do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived! Fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, male prostitutes, sodomites, 10 thieves, the greedy, drunkards, revilers, robbers—none of these will inherit the kingdom of God.

Scripture shows us over and over that believers can lose their salvation by their own wrongdoing. You can, however, continue in your belief that a Christian cannot lose his salvation.

The disobedient are the non-believers. Paul is warning against associating with such persons who will only be a bad influence on them. That is not to say we are to avoid all non-Christians. To do so would prevent us from sharing the Gospel with them. However, those who live constantly in such sin are not to be our associates.

In 1 Cor 6, Paul is addressing believers taking other believers to court trying to settle through secular courts things that should be handled in the church. That is what verse 8 is addressing. The following verses are a reminder to believers to not fall back into their old ways and dishonor the Lord. It is not a warning against losing salvation. You left out verse 11, "And such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and in the Spirit of our God."(emphasis added).

He is reminding them that they used to be fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, ... but were washed, sanctified, and justified. God has saved them and now they need to walk in their new life and not return to their old way of life.

I will continue to believe salvation cannot be lost but I agree that believers are to walk in holiness. The security of our salvation is not license to lead to sinful life. Those who have had their sins washed in the blood of Jesus Christ and be justified now walk in newness of life. These are calls to walk our talk and reminders of what we have been saved from.