Thief Verses Disprove Rapture

[Dale]

There are several verses in the New Testament where Jesus is compared to a thief in that He will come, return from Heaven, at an unexpected time. Jesus speaks of himself this way in Matthew and Luke, and Paul and Peter make the same point in the Epistles. There are two more thief verses in Revelation. Why does this matter?

There is no possibility that these thief verses are a warning that some will be “left behind” at a rapture separate from the Second Coming. The last thief verse is too close to the coming of Christ at the end of Revelation. The last thief verse is Revelation 16:15 and Christ comes as the rider on a white horse in Revelation 19:11.

Revelation 16:15 comes just before the Seventh Bowl is poured out. To put this in perspective, in Revelation we have the Seven Seals, the Seven Trumpets and then the Seven Bowls. Six Seals are opened in Chapter 6 and the Seventh Seal unleashes the Seven Trumpets. The Seven Trumpets sound in Chapters Eight to Eleven. After Revelation 16:15, the Seventh Bowl is poured out two verses later in verse 17. The Beast and the False Prophet arise in Chapter 13.

The whole idea of the Rapture is that the Second Coming is split into two parts, a secret flyover, and the public Second Coming. Jesus would take His followers out of this world in the secret flyover to spare them the reign of the Beast. If that was going to happen it would have to happen long before Revelation 16:15.

The thief verses are a series of warnings that the return of Christ from Heaven will be unexpected, many will be surprised. Dispensationalists tell me that after the Rapture the earth will be in a new dispensation. There will be no church and no Holy Spirit. I guess that means that the Holy Spirit will not be active. Yet in Revelation 16:15 we see the same warning that Jesus gave in Matthew 24, the apocalyptic chapter in Matthew, that Jesus will come as a thief. This warning must be conveyed to the church by the Holy Spirit.

See Post #2 for a list of thief verses.

 

[Dale]

For easy reference, the thief verses in the New Testament.

“Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what
day your Lord will come.
But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at
what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept
watch and would not have let his house be broken into.
So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will
come at an hour when you do not expect him.
Matthew 24:42-44 NIV

It will be good for those servants whose master finds them
ready, even if he comes in the second or third watch of the
night.
But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at
what hour the thief was coming, he would not have let his
house be broken into.
You also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come
at an hour when you do not expect him.”
Luke 12:38-40 NIV

Now, brothers, about times and dates we do not need to
write to you,
for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come
like a thief in the night.
While people are saying, “Peace and safety”, destruction will
come on them suddenly, as labour pains on a pregnant
woman, and they will not escape.
But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should
surprise you like a thief.
I Thessalonians 5:1-4 NIV

But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens
will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by
fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare. [Some
manuscripts: be burned up]
II Peter 3:10 NIV

Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard;
obey it, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come
like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.
Revelation 3:3 NIV

“Behold, I come like a thief! Blessed is he who stays awake
and keeps his clothes with him, so that he may not go naked
and be shamefully exposed.”
Revelation 16:15 NIV

I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white
horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he
judges and makes war.
Revelation 19:11 NIV

The Seventh Bowl:

Re. 16:17 The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and out of
the temple came a loud voice from the throne, saying, “It is done!

 

[Clare73]

There are several verses in the New Testament where Jesus is compared to a thief in that He will come, return from Heaven, at an unexpected time. Jesus speaks of himself this way in Matthew and Luke, and Paul and Peter make the same point in the Epistles. There are two more thief verses in Revelation. Why does this matter?
There is no possibility that these thief verses are a warning that some will be “left behind” at a rapture separate from the Second Coming. The last thief verse is too close to the coming of Christ at the end of Revelation. The last thief verse is Revelation 16:15 and Christ comes as the rider on a white horse in Revelation 19:11.Revelation 16:15 comes just before the Seventh Bowl is poured out. To put this in perspective, in Revelation we have the Seven Seals, the Seven Trumpets and then the Seven Bowls. Six Seals are opened in Chapter 6 and the Seventh Seal unleashes the Seven Trumpets. The Seven Trumpets sound in Chapters Eight to Eleven. After Revelation 16:15, the Seventh Bowl is poured out two verses later in verse 17. The Beast and the False Prophet arise in Chapter 13.

The whole idea of the Rapture is that the Second Coming is split into two parts

That personal interpretation of prophecy, all of which is given in riddles and not spoken clearly, except peophecy given to Moses (Nu 12:8), is in disagreement with authoritative NT apostolic teaching of Ro 4:16-17.

a secret flyover, and the public Second Coming. Jesus would take His followers out of this world in the secret flyover to spare them the reign of the Beast. If that was going to happen it would have to happen long before Revelation 16:15.

The thief verses are a series of warnings that the return of Christ from Heaven will be unexpected, many will be surprised. Dispensationalists tell me that after the Rapture the earth will be in a new dispensation. There will be no church and no Holy Spirit. I guess that means that the Holy Spirit will not be active. Yet in Revelation 16:15 we see the same warning that Jesus gave in Matthew 24, the apocalyptic chapter in Matthew, that Jesus will come as a thief. This warning must be conveyed to the church by the Holy Spirit.

See Post #2 for a list of thief verses.

 

[Dale]

That personal interpretation of prophecy, all of which is given in riddles and not spoken clearly, except peophecy given to Moses (Nu 12:8), is in disagreement with authoritative NT apostolic teaching of Ro 4:16-17.

Clare, hello, since I don't believe I have spoken with you before on CF.
Are you saying that there is authoritative apostolic teaching about the end times that includes a "rapture" separate from the Second Coming?

 

[Clare73]

Clare, hello, since I don't believe I have spoken with you before on CF.
Are you saying that there is authoritative apostolic teaching about the end times that includes a "rapture" separate from the Second Coming?

Hi, Dale,

No, I am not. . .authoritative NT apostolic teaching on the second coming, resurrection, rapture (catching up) is found in 1 Th 4:16-17, where all occur the end of time.

 

[keras]

The Prophesies which say the Lord will come as a thief, all refer to the forthcoming Sixth Seal Day of the Lords fiery wrath.
It will not be a 'coming' as such, as He will not be seen on that terrible Day. The Lord will send fire; Psalms 11:4-6, Psalms 18:11, Habakkuk 3:4

 

[linux.poet]

As far as I'm concerned, the "coming of the Lord" as a "thief" refers to the Rapture itself, which we do not know the timing of.

authoritative NT apostolic teaching on the second coming, resurrection, rapture (catching up) is found in 1 Th 4:16-17,

I agree with this. Exactly. The "thief" verses cannot contradict the teaching about the Rapture in 1 Thessalonians, because that would make the Scripture inconsistent with itself.

 

[Dale]

The Prophesies which say the Lord will come as a thief, all refer to the forthcoming Sixth Seal Day of the Lords fiery wrath.
It will not be a 'coming' as such, as He will not be seen on that terrible Day. The Lord will send fire; Psalms 11:4-6, Psalms 18:11, Habakkuk 3:4

Keras, you refer to a “terrible Day” and the Lord sending fire, then cite three passages of scripture. None say anything about a Day of the Lord or God raining fire on any particular person or city or nation. The second and third verses you mention simply glorify God. The first says that God will punish the wicked, not on a day of judgment, but in the regular course of events.

The LORD is in his holy temple; the LORD is on his heavenly throne. He observes the sons of men; his eyes examine them.The LORD examines the righteous, but the wicked [Or The LORD, the Righteous One, examines the wicked,] and those who love violence his soul hates.
On the wicked he will rain fiery coals and burning sulphur; a scorching wind will be their lot.​

Psalm 11 4-6 NIV

He made darkness his covering, his canopy around him — the dark rain clouds of the sky.
Psalm 18:11 NIV

His splendour was like the sunrise; rays flashed from his hand, where his power was hidden.
Habukkuk 3:4 NIV

 

[keras]

Keras, you refer to a “terrible Day” and the Lord sending fire,

Shock and Awe: the Lord’s Day of Wrath:
How bad will the Lord’s response to the attack of Psalm 83 be?

When the sun explodes out a massive CME…. Isaiah 30:26, Psalms 50:1-3

When the Arm of the Lord descends in anger…..Isaiah 30:30, Zephaniah 3:8

When He flashes lightning and fiery coals onto the earth. Deut. 32:22, Psalm 18:13-14

When the Day comes, burning like a furnace. Malachi 4:1, 2 Peter 3:7

Most people have no conception of the worldwide devastation that will be caused by the hit upon the earth by the Lord’s fiery Day of vengeance and wrath. Isaiah 29:6 What is prophesied will be so shocking, so terrifying, that it is impossible for us to really comprehend and only when it happens, will we realise the full extent of the damage done to the world and our modern infrastructure.

There has never been a comparable natural disaster in recorded history. The nearest to it may be the continuous winters of 1883-87, caused by the ash clouds from Krakatoa, or some recent tsunamis. Only Noah’s flood really compares, but fortunately this time we have God’s promise to never again destroy man and animals so extensively. Genesis 9:16 Many people will die, Jeremiah 25:33, Isaiah 34:3, but most will survive.

As the survivors come out from under whatever shelter they have found, Isaiah 2:20-21, Revelation 6:15, there will be little, if any light for weeks or months. Amos 5:20, Zephaniah 1:15 Most buildings will be destroyed by earthquake and fire, Isaiah 24:18, Zephaniah 3:8 and huge tsunamis will wipe out all coastal cities and towns. Jeremiah 51:42, Amos 9:6

Normal mains electricity supply will not be restored for years. Only small generators will be able to supply power and these will soon run out of fuel, as will all motor transport. Line telephone systems and radio communication may be set up fairly quickly, but mobile phones and internet may never be re-established.

The world will slowly recover and in order to regain control and normal services, a 10 region One World Government will be organised. Daniel 7:23-24 However, those who have maintained their faith and trust in the Creator God during this time of testing have the promises of His redemption and their gathering into all of the Holy Land. Deuteronomy 30:3, Isaiah 35, Psalms 107, Zechariah 10:8, Hosea 11:10-11, Ezekiel 11:17, Ezekiel 36:8, Isaiah 49:8-23, Jeremiah 23:3-4, Psalms 69:35-36, Colossians 1:11-12, Revelation 7:9-14

 

[Douggg]

The like a thief verses don't disprove the Rapture, but the like a thief phrase is used to emphasize the surprise happening of different events.

1. the Rapture event.
2. the beginning of the day of the Lord.
3. the appearance of the Son of Man in heaven (Revelation 16:15) that causes the reaction for the kings of the earth to gather their armies at Armageddon to prepare to make war on Jesus and His armies of heaven.

 

[Apple Sky]

Most people have no conception of the worldwide devastation that will be caused by the hit upon the earth by the Lord’s fiery Day of vengeance and wrath.

Yes it will be like Sodom & Gomorrah but global.

 

[Apple Sky]

The like a thief verses don't disprove the Rapture, but the like a thief phrase is used to emphasize the surprise happening of different events.

There will be no pre rapture on that final day every thing happens all at once.

The lead up to that final day (the 7 year tribuation) well that's an entirely different part of Revelation.

 

[Douggg]

There will be no pre rapture on that final day every thing happens all at once.

The lead up to that final day (the 7 year tribuation) well that's an entirely different part of Revelation.

I don't know what you mean.

The rapture could take place any time between today and when the Antichrist goes into the temple, sits, claims to have achieved God-hood.

 

[Apple Sky]

I don't know what you mean.

The rapture could take place any time between today and when the Antichrist goes into the temple, sits, claims to have achieved God-hood.




View attachment 358988

My mistake I thought you were referring to a pre rapture. Soz..

 

[Dale]

Hi, Dale,

No, I am not. . .authoritative NT apostolic teaching on the second coming, resurrection, rapture (catching up) is found in 1 Th 4:16-17, where all occur the end of time.

Thanks! That adds clarity.

 

[Dale]

The Prophesies which say the Lord will come as a thief, all refer to the forthcoming Sixth Seal Day of the Lords fiery wrath.
It will not be a 'coming' as such, as He will not be seen on that terrible Day. The Lord will send fire; Psalms 11:4-6, Psalms 18:11, Habakkuk 3:4

Keras: “It will not be a 'coming' as such, as He will not be seen on that terrible Day.”

The passages of scripture that I pointed to use “come” or “coming” in connection with the Son of Man, Jesus, seven times. Thessalonians also says that Jesus may “surprise you” which is the same thing. I didn’t count II Peter 3:10, the only passage that is possibly consistent with your favorite scenario. “Come” is a verb, it implies action. You contradict the Bible when you say that when Jesus comes it will not be a “coming.”

 

[Dale]

The like a thief verses don't disprove the Rapture, but the like a thief phrase is used to emphasize the surprise happening of different events.

1. the Rapture event.
2. the beginning of the day of the Lord.
3. the appearance of the Son of Man in heaven (Revelation 16:15) that causes the reaction for the kings of the earth to gather their armies at Armageddon to prepare to make war on Jesus and His armies of heaven.

Doug: “3. the appearance of the Son of Man in heaven (Revelation 16:15) that causes the reaction for the kings of the earth to gather their armies at Armageddon to prepare to make war on Jesus and His armies of heaven.”

“Behold, I come like a thief! Blessed is he who stays awake
and keeps his clothes with him, so that he may not go naked
and be shamefully exposed.”
Revelation 16:15 NIV

Take a look at Rev. 16:15. Jesus does not appear, is not seen, but He speaks to give a warning. As I said in the OP, I can only take this as a warning to the church conveyed by the Holy Spirit. It is my understanding that the armies gather at Armageddon to destroy Israel, not because they think they can make war on the Christian God.

 

[Dale]

As far as I'm concerned, the "coming of the Lord" as a "thief" refers to the Rapture itself, which we do not know the timing of.

I agree with this. Exactly. The "thief" verses cannot contradict the teaching about the Rapture in 1 Thessalonians, because that would make the Scripture inconsistent with itself.

Linus.poet: “The "thief" verses cannot contradict the teaching about the Rapture in 1 Thessalonians, because that would make the Scripture inconsistent with itself.”

Linux, you seem to think that I Thessalonians 4:16-17 teaches a rapture separate from the Second Coming. It does not. The whole idea of “rapture” is to split the Second Coming into two parts, a private, secret, coming where Jesus grabs Christians and takes them to heaven. Later there is a public Second Coming where Jesus comes for the Millennium and Judgment. So what do these two verses really say?

For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a
loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the
trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up
together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
And so we will be with the Lord for ever.
I Thessalonians 4:16-17 NIV

It says that Jesus Christ will come with the sound of a trumpet and a “loud command.” This cannot be a private or secret coming, it will be known to all, known to the world. We are not told that Jesus reverses direction and goes back to heaven. The implication is that He continues to set foot on earth.

 

[Dale]

As far as I'm concerned, the "coming of the Lord" as a "thief" refers to the Rapture itself, which we do not know the timing of.

I agree with this. Exactly. The "thief" verses cannot contradict the teaching about the Rapture in 1 Thessalonians, because that would make the Scripture inconsistent with itself.

Let me give you another reason why a rapture separate from the Second Coming cannot be reconciled with the Bible. According to Dispensationalists/Rapturists, Jesus takes His followers, Christians, to heaven while the Antichrist wreaks havoc on earth. Years later, Jesus returns to judge the world. Is this the right order of events?

Take a look at the Parable of the Wheat and Tares, or as later translations call it, the Parable of the Wheat and Weeds.

Jesus told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is
like a man who sowed good seed in his field.
But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed
weeds among the wheat, and went away.
When the wheat sprouted and formed ears, then the weeds
also appeared.
“The owner’s servants came to him and said, `Sir, didn’t you
sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come
from?’
“`An enemy did this,’ he replied. “The servants asked him,
`Do you want us to go and pull them up?’
“`No,’ he answered, `because while you are pulling the
weeds, you may root up the wheat with them.
Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will
tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in
bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into
my barn.’“
Matthew 13:24-30 NIV

In the Parable of the Wheat and Weeds, those who are lost are gathered, tied and burned first. After that has been done, God’s angels gather the wheat, which represents the saved, the Christians. Dispensationalists have the order of events backwards.

 

[Douggg]

Take a look at Rev. 16:15. Jesus does not appear, is not seen, but He speaks to give a warning. As I said in the OP, I can only take this as a warning to the church conveyed by the Holy Spirit. It is my understanding that the armies gather at Armageddon to destroy Israel, not because they think they can make war on the Christian God.

Hi Dale,

The gathering by the kings of the earth of their armies at Armageddon is to make war on Jesus and His armies of heaven.

Take a look at Revelation 19:17-21. Jesus returning to this earth.

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In verses 17-18 the kings of the earth and their armies are about to die, and the birds are going to have a huge feast on their dead bodies. btw, these two verses correspond to Ezekiel 39:17-20. Jesus's return is in Ezekiel 39:21-29.

Revelation 19:
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

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In verse 19 is what links us back to the Revelation 16:16 as why the gathering of the armies at Armageddon.

The kings of the earth will be doing that to make war on Jesus, to keep Him from executing judgement on them. As they will have seen Jesus suddenly appear in heaven, in the sixth seal event in Revelation 16:12-17, and say.... 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Revelation 19:
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

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Jesus first deals with the beast-king and the false prophet....

Revelation 19:
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

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Then Jesus in verse 21 destroys the kings of the earth and their armies that will have gathered to make war on Him and His armies. And the birds eat their dead flesh, fulfilling verses Revelation 19:17-18... and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Revelation 19:
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

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This chart I made may also be helpful.