Prosperity Gospel

[CallieB]

People can be open to a possibility which they don’t have the faith to expect.

I’ve never seen a person get healed against his will. God can’t make you receive it. Religious leaders in Jesus’ time hated Him so much they would have actively rejected anything from Him.

 

[Postvieww]

No, I don't believe so.
Jesus sometimes healed people who had no faith - Jairus' daughter didn't, and the father of the demon-possessed boy said, "IF you can, make him clean." I have read an account of an unbeliever being healed at a healing rally, while a Christian - who had more faith - wasn't.

Some years ago I was told by folk on these forums that I would never be healed because I didn't have faith, (in the prosperity Gospel.) I still don't, but it doesn't matter, because no one told God that, and he healed me.

I didn’t say it was always the case or a hard rule I just said “is it possible that some “. Jairus’ had faith for his daughter. When I was healed I was at the altar praying not even thinking at that moment about my condition. The evangelist spoke to me and told me what my problem was and said God is healing you, and He did. At that time I wasn’t asking for healing it was just a gift of healing from God preceded by a Word of knowledge given to the evangelist from God about what he could not possibly known about me in the natural. God can heal anyone He chooses anytime but I believe scripture is clear lack of faith or false teaching can be a hindrance.

 

[Aaron112]

It makes no sense to me that Jesus once used healings and miracles to affirm the message or to get people's attention, but now there's no need for it. People are still sick and looking for relief.

Perhaps like the song looking for love in all the wrong places. This internet experiences are good example of how many people refuse to give up their pet projects , though they have to give up everything if they want to be healed, if they want to follow Jesus and be with Jesus People.

 

[Aaron112]

I’ve never seen a person get healed against his will.

Maybe you have and do not know it. Maybe not for show, not dramatic, not any false motive or purpose. One healer pointed out - if the prescribed action is done as I say, even if it is for a person who does not believe it works, even for an animal for that matter, they are healed. and it was so. Most people will not do what Jesus says - most don't have a clue what Jesus says, even in brick and mortar buildings (or especially there?) , where traditions are pushed and imposed and 'forced', but Jesus is ignored.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

People to this day (and often daily) pray the Lord's Prayer which clearly states the Gospel of the Kingdom. The only healing mentioned is delivering us from the evil within and around us, which is the adversarial spirit towards God. We shall be healed.

It's a shame people still want physical healing in the same way the Jews were expecting a physical saviour.

Not quite true; healing would be more covered in "Give us this day our daily bread". I like Luther's explanation:

The Fourth Petition​

Give us this day our daily bread.

What is this?

God gives daily bread, even without our prayer, to all evil people; but we pray in this petition that He would lead us to recognise this and to receive our daily bread with thanksgiving.

What is meant by daily bread?

Everything that belongs to the support and needs of the body, such as food, drink, clothing, shoes, house, property, land, animals, money, goods, a devout spouse, devout children, devout workers, devout and faithful rulers, good government, good weather, peace, health, discipline, honour, good friends, faithful neighbours, and other such things.

 

[Guojing]

I believe Philippians 4, not necessarily every thing you have to say about it. Do you believe 1 Corinthians 12 is relevant to the church today?

Obviously not.

When it comes to rightly dividing, you must also rightly divide Paul's epistles, I have explained that here

Why did Paul talk about tongue speaking only in 1 Corinthians?

Here is my view. Acts 18 After these things Paul departed from Athens, and came to Corinth; 2 And found a certain Jew named Aquila, born in Pontus, lately come from Italy, with his wife Priscilla; (because that Claudius had commanded all Jews to depart from Rome:) and came unto them. 3 And...

www.christianforums.com

 

[Guojing]

I know.
But you seem to be saying that a lack of, or delay in, healing was evidence that the gift had disappeared. It wasn't.

My point about healing was clearly stated here Prosperity Gospel

 

[Guojing]

I’ve never seen a person get healed against his will. God can’t make you receive it. Religious leaders in Jesus’ time hated Him so much they would have actively rejected anything from Him.

Scripture actually has an example of the above in Luke 22:49-51

That is the gift of healing.

 

[Guojing]

It makes no sense to me that Jesus once used healings and miracles to affirm the message or to get people's attention, but now there's no need for it. People are still sick and looking for relief. People are still flocking to faith healers of every religious variety. People are still affected when they see a miracle or unexplainable event. Nabeel Qureshi had all the intellectual arguments in his head, but it took the power of God in a tangible sense to supernaturally change his mind. Rarely do people become Christian without some kind of supernatural intervention.

It also makes no sense to me that demonic workers have powers to deceive people, afflict people, and offer false miracles... yet the kingdom of God no longer operates in any capacity to combat those things.

Thirdly, as Frances Chan points out, it makes no sense to read a Bible full of the supernatural, then be told none of it applies to you. Get you "gospel" that Jesus died and rose again, then put down the book and don't bother reading more because the rest of it is irrelevant.

I think the biggest misleading teaching in churches that believe signs and wonders are also for today, is that Jesus did all those healing signs, for example, in his first coming, only because he is "kind and compassionate".

With this misunderstanding, and together with the misapplication of Hebrews 13:8, Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever, its easy to conclude with the wrong doctrine that those same healings are thus avaliable to anyone today with faith to believe in him.

I have no doubt Jesus is kind and compassionate, but let me ask you a question, and I am curious how you understand the link between signs and the nation of Israel.

Why do you think, in his first coming on Earth for the nation of Israel (Matthew 15:24, Matthew 10:5, Romans 15:8), did Jesus performed signs and wonders? What is the link between signs and wonders and the nation of Israel in the Old Testament?

Once you understand the answer to the questions above, it will make perfect sense.

 

[Guojing]

I believe Philippians 4, not necessarily every thing you have to say about it. Do you believe 1 Corinthians 12 is relevant to the church today?

Oh, we have engaged before 2 years ago about this topic as well

Those who believe the perfect in 1 Cor 13:10 refers to the 2nd coming...

I agree with most of what you said but Apostle And Prophet are given for the work of the ministry as well as the others . You have still not answered how you remove them from the passage and left the others. Maybe I was wrong that is not a simple task since scripturally you cannot do it. You do...

www.christianforums.com

 

[CallieB]

aaand once again I regret commenting on a debate thread

 

[Aaron112]

A thousand readers, a thousand different answers, some the same, few agreeing ever; is there a goal/ a point? The authorities on earth do not care. ..... As long as they get their money or power.

aaand once again I regret commenting on a debate thread

 

[Guojing]

aaand once again I regret commenting on a debate thread

You rather be in an "echo chamber"?

I always consider such forums as a "safe space" for Christians to discuss issues that they could not discuss with fellow believers face to face.

These are questions we want to ask in bible study groups but due to lack of time, and the difficulty of presenting them in speech instead of typed words, we would rather just agree with what the leader says.

 

[Aaron112]

…50This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that anyone may eat of it and not die. 51I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And this bread, which I will give for the life of the world, is My flesh.” 52At this, the Jews began to argue among themselves, “How can this man give us His flesh to eat?”…

 

[Postvieww]

Oh, we have engaged before 2 years ago about this topic as well

Those who believe the perfect in 1 Cor 13:10 refers to the 2nd coming...

I agree with most of what you said but Apostle And Prophet are given for the work of the ministry as well as the others . You have still not answered how you remove them from the passage and left the others. Maybe I was wrong that is not a simple task since scripturally you cannot do it. You do...

www.christianforums.com

So you have established that neither of us has changed their minds on this doctrinal issue. Nothing I can say will change what you think is true and nothing you can say will change what I experientially know to be true.

 

[Aaron112]

Amen!
Not by (human) power, nor by (human) might, but by MY SPIRIT SAYETH the LORD OF HOSTS.

As the Father in heaven Pleases to do, He Heals, He Reveals, and He Hardens (people's hearts from accepting the truth) and He Punishes (them for their sinfulness and hardness of heart).

Nothing I can say will change what you think is true and nothing you can say will change what I experientially know to be true.

 

[Guojing]

So you have established that neither of us has changed their minds on this doctrinal issue. Nothing I can say will change what you think is true and nothing you can say will change what I experientially know to be true.

I don't participate in these forums to change people's minds, that is beyond my control.

Its more to understand why others choose the doctrines they believe in.

That is within my control

 

[Strong in Him]

My point about healing was clearly stated here Prosperity Gospel

Your point about healing was:

The point I was making is that these gifts of healing ceased after Acts 28, because Paul no longer mentioned them in his epistles after that.

i.e. there can't have been gifts of healing, because a couple of people got sick.

It doesn't follow.

 

[Guojing]

Your point about healing was:

i.e. there can't have been gifts of healing, because a couple of people got sick.

It doesn't follow.

These gifts in 1 Cor 12 were always meant to be sign to National Israel.

Israel fallen completely by Acts 28

Therefore no more gifts, whether tongues or healing.

the longer explanation is here.

Why did Paul talk about tongue speaking only in 1 Corinthians?

Here is my view. Acts 18 After these things Paul departed from Athens, and came to Corinth; 2 And found a certain Jew named Aquila, born in Pontus, lately come from Italy, with his wife Priscilla; (because that Claudius had commanded all Jews to depart from Rome:) and came unto them. 3 And...

www.christianforums.com

If you are sick today, you bear in mind what Paul taught us here

Prosperity Gospel

And, meanwhile . . . while ones are preaching prosperity and health and others are busy with criticizing them . . . none of them might give us what Jesus says will happen if we leave family and things for Him > "So Jesus answered and said, 'Assuredly, I say to you, there is no one who has left...

www.christianforums.com

 

[Strong in Him]

Israel fallen completely by Acts 28

In Acts 28 Paul was alive and under house arrest. We are told that he was in a rented house and that people could come to visit him, but not that he went anywhere. It does not sound as though Paul was in imminent danger of death, and it is more likely that he was released, travelled and wrote some more letters, was re-arrested and then executed.
Paul died in AD 64, or thereabouts, and was in prison at the end of his life. Jerusalem fell in AD 70 5-6 years after Paul's death.

So how was Israel "fallen completely by Acts 28"?