Saved by faith alone; how do you know your faith is saving faith?

[Danthemailman]

Is it saving faith if it produces no works (of righteousness)?

Saving faith results in producing works (James 2:14-26) although it's faith that saves and not works. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5) Faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No fruit at all would demonstrate there is no root.

 

[bling]

Some Christians tell me, as a Catholic, that I am not saved because I allegedly believe that I am saved by faith plus works. They are, of course, wrong since I believe no such thing. Nevertheless, I got to wondering if they say ,"we are saved by faith [alone] apart from works", then how do they know that the kind of faith that they have is genuine 24 caret saving faith?

"He that is forgiven much "Loves" much", so does this person have a "Godly type Love" compelling them?

 

[Clare73]

I see. But not all works, just those of the law, right?

There are no other spiritual works in Scripture apart from the law, all works fall under the laws of Mt 22:37-40 and imply obedience.
But obedience does not save, only the faith in Jesus Christ of that obedience saves (Eph 2:9, Ro 3:20-21, 28, Gal 2:16, 3:11).

 

[eleos1954]

Some Christians tell me, as a Catholic, that I am not saved because I allegedly believe that I am saved by faith plus works. They are, of course, wrong since I believe no such thing. Nevertheless, I got to wondering if they say ,"we are saved by faith [alone] apart from works", then how do they know that the kind of faith that they have is genuine 24 caret saving faith?

Some Christians tell me, as a Catholic, that I am not saved because I allegedly believe that I am saved by faith plus works. They are, of course, wrong since I believe no such thing. Nevertheless, I got to wondering if they say ,"we are saved by faith [alone] apart from works", then how do they know that the kind of faith that they have is genuine 24 caret saving faith?

Nobody knows who is or isn't saved ... that is entirely up to Jesus and we are not privy to that information.

Ours is to point everyone to Jesus .... how that ultimately turns out we won't know until His return and we should quit supposing that we know who is or isn't saved. Only God knows the heart .... we do not .... end of story.

 

[Clare73]

Nobody knows who is or isn't saved ... that is entirely up to Jesus and we are not privy to that information.

Ours is to point everyone to Jesus .... how that ultimately turns out we won't know until His return and we should quit supposing that we know who is or isn't saved. Only God knows the heart .... we do not .... end of story.

The NT word of God disagrees with you.

Ro 8:16 - "The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are God's children."

2 Co 1:12 - "(God) anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit guaranteeing what is to come.

 

[Guojing]

Nobody knows who is or isn't saved ... that is entirely up to Jesus and we are not privy to that information.

Paul was clear in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, on who is saved or who is not.

 

[Danthemailman]

The NT word of God disagrees with you.

Ro 8:16 - "The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are God's children."

2 Co 1:12 - "(God) anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit guaranteeing what is to come.

1 John 5:11 - And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God. Praise God!

 

[Valletta]

Saving faith trusts in Jesus Christ alone for salvation and not in Jesus Christ + works. Man is saved through faith and not by works (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is (evidenced) by works. (James 2:14-26).

*Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.* (Romans 3:24-28)

It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 4:5-6; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-26) *Perfect Harmony*

It is official Catholic teaching that the saving grace God gives us cannot be earned, NOT by works or anything else. It is a free gift from God:

1996 Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.46

Part Three Section One Man's Vocation Life In The Spirit Chapter Three God's Salvation: Law And Grace Article 2 Grace And Justification II. Grace

www.vatican.va

IV. The Sacraments of Salvation
1127 Celebrated worthily in faith, the sacraments confer the grace that they signify.48 They are efficacious because in them Christ himself is at work: it is he who baptizes, he who acts in his sacraments in order to communicate the grace that each sacrament signifies. the Father always hears the prayer of his Son's Church which, in the epiclesis of each sacrament, expresses her faith in the power of the Spirit. As fire transforms into itself everything it touches, so the Holy Spirit transforms into the divine life whatever is subjected to his power.

Catechism of the Catholic Church - IntraText

Now Catholics are aware that we have free will and must properly respond to God's grace, so for a Catholic even though in 1 Peter we are told we are saved through Baptism we realize our life is a constant battle with evil:

Phil 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; RSVCE

 

[Danthemailman]

It is official Catholic teaching that the saving grace God gives us cannot be earned, NOT by works or anything else. It is a free gift from God:

1996 Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.46

Part Three Section One Man's Vocation Life In The Spirit Chapter Three God's Salvation: Law And Grace Article 2 Grace And Justification II. Grace

www.vatican.va

IV. The Sacraments of Salvation
1127 Celebrated worthily in faith, the sacraments confer the grace that they signify.48 They are efficacious because in them Christ himself is at work: it is he who baptizes, he who acts in his sacraments in order to communicate the grace that each sacrament signifies. the Father always hears the prayer of his Son's Church which, in the epiclesis of each sacrament, expresses her faith in the power of the Spirit. As fire transforms into itself everything it touches, so the Holy Spirit transforms into the divine life whatever is subjected to his power.

Catechism of the Catholic Church - IntraText

Now Catholics are aware that we have free will and must properly respond to God's grace, so for a Catholic even though in 1 Peter we are told we are saved through Baptism we realize our life is a constant battle with evil:

Phil 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; RSVCE

When reading Trent's canons on Justification, keep in mind that the Protestant teaching is constantly caricatured as if we hold that there is nothing more to salvation than the remission of sins. Nothing could be further from the truth. We believe that regeneration and sanctification are integral aspects of salvation. So, for example, concerning canon 11, we do not exclude the grace and love poured in our hearts by the Holy Spirit. On the other hand, we do not believe that our standing before God is based on our inherent righteousness, but only on account of the righteousness of Christ imputed (credited) to us by faith and His substitutionary sacrifice for our sins.

The Catholic Church Teaches Salvation by Works

Romans 5:1 - Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. *No mention of sacraments.

In Peter 3:21, Peter tells us that baptism now saves you, yet when he uses this phrase, he continues in the same sentence to explain exactly what he means by it. He said that baptism now saves you-not the removal of dirt from the flesh (that is, not as an outward, physical act which washes dirt from the body--that is not what saves you), "but an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (that is, as an inward, spiritual transaction between God and the individual, a transaction that is symbolized by the outward ceremony of water baptism).

By saying, "not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience - through the resurrection of Jesus Christ," Peter guards against saving power to the physical ceremony itself.

*Just as the eight people in the ark were "saved THROUGH water" as they were IN THE ARK. They were not literally saved "by" the water. Hebrews 11:7 is clear on this point (..built an ARK for the SAVING of his household).

*The context reveals that only the righteous (Noah and his family) were dry and therefore safe. In contrast, only the wicked in Noah's day came in contract with the water and they all perished.

In Philippians 2:12, notice that Paul said to "work out" your salvation and NOT "work for" your salvation. When we "work out" at the gym, we exercise to develop our body that we already have and not to get a body. Farmers "work out" the land, not in order to get the land, but to develop the land they already have. The Greek verb rendered "work out" means "to continually work to bring something to completion or fruition." We do this by actively pursuing the process of ongoing sanctification, which is the result of being set apart for God's work and involves the process of being conformed to the image of Christ.

This conforming to Christ involves the work of the person, but it is still God working in the believer to produce more of a godly character and life in the person who has already been justified by faith. In verse 13, Paul goes on to say, "for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." Ongoing sanctification has no bearing on justification. That is, even if we don't live a sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, absolute perfect life 100% of the time (which we won't) we are still justified by faith in Christ. (Romans 5:1) Where justification is a legal declaration that is instantaneous, ongoing sanctification is a process.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

1996 Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life

That is exactly what CCC 1996 says.

 

[Valletta]

When reading Trent's canons on Justification, keep in mind that the Protestant teaching is constantly caricatured as if we hold that there is nothing more to salvation than the remission of sins. Nothing could be further from the truth. We believe that regeneration and sanctification are integral aspects of salvation. So, for example, concerning canon 11, we do not exclude the grace and love poured in our hearts by the Holy Spirit. On the other hand, we do not believe that our standing before God is based on our inherent righteousness, but only on account of the righteousness of Christ imputed (credited) to us by faith and His substitutionary sacrifice for our sins.

The Catholic Church Teaches Salvation by Works

Romans 5:1 - Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. *No mention of sacraments.

In Peter 3:21, Peter tells us that baptism now saves you, yet when he uses this phrase, he continues in the same sentence to explain exactly what he means by it. He said that baptism now saves you-not the removal of dirt from the flesh (that is, not as an outward, physical act which washes dirt from the body--that is not what saves you), "but an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (that is, as an inward, spiritual transaction between God and the individual, a transaction that is symbolized by the outward ceremony of water baptism).

By saying, "not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience - through the resurrection of Jesus Christ," Peter guards against saving power to the physical ceremony itself.

*Just as the eight people in the ark were "saved THROUGH water" as they were IN THE ARK. They were not literally saved "by" the water. Hebrews 11:7 is clear on this point (..built an ARK for the SAVING of his household).

*The context reveals that only the righteous (Noah and his family) were dry and therefore safe. In contrast, only the wicked in Noah's day came in contract with the water and they all perished.

In Philippians 2:12, notice that Paul said to "work out" your salvation and NOT "work for" your salvation. When we "work out" at the gym, we exercise to develop our body that we already have and not to get a body. Farmers "work out" the land, not in order to get the land, but to develop the land they already have. The Greek verb rendered "work out" means "to continually work to bring something to completion or fruition." We do this by actively pursuing the process of ongoing sanctification, which is the result of being set apart for God's work and involves the process of being conformed to the image of Christ.

This conforming to Christ involves the work of the person, but it is still God working in the believer to produce more of a godly character and life in the person who has already been justified by faith. In verse 13, Paul goes on to say, "for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." Ongoing sanctification has no bearing on justification. That is, even if we don't live a sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, absolute perfect life 100% of the time (which we won't) we are still justified by faith in Christ. (Romans 5:1) Where justification is a legal declaration that is instantaneous, ongoing sanctification is a process.

No, as can be seen in the Catechism the Catholic Church does not teach salvation by works. This guy both misinterprets the Bible and the Catholic faith. It's interesting that he addresses Phil 2:12, but neglects to mention the "with fear and trembling" part, which was the point of me bringing it up. The passage below makes a similar point:

1 Cor 13:2 And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. RSVCE

If we are saved by faith and faith alone, how can it be that a saved person without love is nothing?

The Catholic faith teaches us that it is Jesus who saves us, who gives us saving grace. Jesus often used physical objects or did specific acts in performing miracles. Jesus does so with the sacrament of Baptism. Jesus, the Lamb of God, also did so at the Last Supper, which he linked the Holy Eucharist to the Passover meal. The Passover meal is more complex--has more distinct aspects to it than Baptism so I hope this will make things more clear. This meal was not complete until the eating of the lamb. Jesus is both High Priest and sacrifice. Like Baptism, no where does Jesus claim that this is symbolic. In John 6 Jesus, when questioned about giving His body to eat, gets more emphatic about eating His true Body and drinking His true Blood. Jesus also commands the Apostles to "do this," specific acts and words. As to our salvation, Jesus does not require us to do a certain amount of works to be saved. Being saved is a gift from God that cannot be earned. Works do spring from faith, and as can be seen in the Bible we are told we will be rewarded by God(in some unspecified way) for our good works.

 

[Hammster]

Some Christians tell me, as a Catholic, that I am not saved because I allegedly believe that I am saved by faith plus works. They are, of course, wrong since I believe no such thing. Nevertheless, I got to wondering if they say ,"we are saved by faith [alone] apart from works", then how do they know that the kind of faith that they have is genuine 24 caret saving faith?

Because it’s the only thing I’m relying on for salvation. However, the evidence of such faith is works.

 

[Clare73]

No, as can be seen in the Catechism the Catholic Church does not teach salvation by works. This guy both misinterprets the Bible and the Catholic faith. It's interesting that he addresses Phil 2:12, but neglects to mention the "with fear and trembling" part, which was the point of me bringing it up. The passage below makes a similar point:

1 Cor 13:2 And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. RSVCE
If we are saved by faith and faith alone, how can it be that a saved person without love is nothing?

The above, including faith to remove mountains, does not save.
Only faith in and trust on the person and work of Jesus Christ saves (Eph 2:9).
Saving faith produces love (commitment to another's well being).

If we are saved by faith and faith alone, how can it be that a saved person without love is nothing?

The Catholic faith teaches us that it is Jesus who saves us, who gives us saving grace. Jesus often used physical objects or did specific acts in performing miracles. Jesus does so with the sacrament of Baptism. Jesus, the Lamb of God, also did so at the Last Supper, which he linked the Holy Eucharist to the Passover meal. The Passover meal is more complex--has more distinct aspects to it than Baptism so I hope this will make things more clear. This meal was not complete until the eating of the lamb. Jesus is both High Priest and sacrifice. Like Baptism, no where does Jesus claim that this is symbolic. In John 6 Jesus, when questioned about giving His body to eat, gets more emphatic about eating His true Body and drinking His true Blood. Jesus also commands the Apostles to "do this," specific acts and words. As to our salvation, Jesus does not require us to do a certain amount of works to be saved. Being saved is a gift from God that cannot be earned. Works do spring from faith, and as can be seen in the Bible we are told we will be rewarded by God(in some unspecified way) for our good works.

 

[eleos1954]

The NT word of God disagrees with you.

Ro 8:16 - "The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are God's children."

2 Co 1:12 - "(God) anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit guaranteeing what is to come.

and we can walk away at any time ... and some do and will

1 Timothy 4:1-2, which states, "Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons.". This verse essentially warns that in the last days, some people will abandon the Christian faith and follow false teachings.

• Matthew 24:10-12:
  Jesus warns that in the end times, many will fall away from the faith and betray one another.
  
  
• Hebrews 6:4-6:
  This passage discusses the danger of "falling away" from the faith after having once experienced God's grace.

 

[Clare73]

and we can walk away at any time ... and some do and will

1 Timothy 4:1-2, which states, "Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons.". This verse essentially warns that in the last days, some people will abandon the Christian faith and follow false teachings.

• Matthew 24:10-12:
  Jesus warns that in the end times, many will fall away from the faith and betray one another.
  
  
• Hebrews 6:4-6:
  This passage discusses the danger of "falling away" from the faith after having once experienced God's grace.

The "some" are those whose faith is not genuine, not of the Holy Spirit, and they are not sealed by him.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

The "some" are those whose faith is not genuine

How does one know that one's faith is genuine?

 

[Danthemailman]

No, as can be seen in the Catechism the Catholic Church does not teach salvation by works. This guy both misinterprets the Bible and the Catholic faith.

That is only one snippet from the CCC and that guy is a former Roman Catholic who understands the Catholic faith better than you think.
The Roman Catholic Church in the Catholic Catechism teaches that we can merit grace necessary for salvation and that, after first having faith, we attain eternal life by works, baptism, and keeping the commandments.

1. CCC 2010, “…Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life.”
2. CCC 2027, “Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life, as well as necessary temporal goods.”
3. CCC 2068, “The Second Vatican Council confirms: “The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments.”

I once quoted Ephesians 2:8,9 to a Roman Catholic and clarified that we are saved by grace through faith, not works and the Roman Catholic responded by saying, "I know that." That same Roman Catholic also denied that Roman Catholicism teaches salvation by works. Then after we discussed it a little deeper, it turns out that Roman Catholic contradicted himself and misinterpreted Ephesians 2:8,9 as such - Saved by grace through faith "infused" with good works, just not works of the law.

As you can see that Roman Catholic teaches saved by "these" works (good works) and just not "those" works (works of the law). That same Roman Catholic continually called works an essential element of faith and said that it's our cooperation with God’s grace producing works that saves us and he stressed that we are saved by faith and works. He also went on to make this statement below:

We ARE saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith". Faith is not simply "believing". Faith INCLUDES: Being water baptized, eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, works of mercy and charity, obeying his commandments etc..

As you can see above, according to his logic, faith "is" in essence this list of works above so to say that we are saved by faith would also include being saved by accomplishing that list of works above (salvation by works). His argument about faith being defined as and INCLUDES these works above (yet at the same time denying that Roman Catholicism teaches salvation by works) is just sugar-coated double talk, smoke and mirrors, and equates to salvation by faith AND WORKS.

 

[Danthemailman]

It's interesting that he addresses Phil 2:12, but neglects to mention the "with fear and trembling" part, which was the point of me bringing it up.

In regard to "fear and trembling," it pertains to a healthy fear of offending God and a righteous awe and respect or reverence for Him. (Proverbs 1:7; Psalm 2:11; Psalm 34:9; Isaiah 66:2) Prior to my conversion, while still attending the Roman Catholic church several years ago, I basically saw God as a tyrant who couldn't wait to punish me every time I messed up and throw me into hell for not measuring up. That is a misguided, unhealthy fear that is not from above.

Paul uses the same phrase "fear and trembling" in 2 Corinthians 7:15 in which he refers to Titus as being encouraged by the reception of him by the Corinthians "with fear and trembling," that is, with humility and respect for his position as a minister of Jesus Christ. In 1 Corinthians 2:3, we see that Paul himself came to the Corinthian church in "weakness and fear, and with much trembling" in regard to the huge responsibility and critical importance of the work in which he was engaged.

 

[Danthemailman]

1 Cor 13:2 And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. RSVCE

If we are saved by faith and faith alone, how can it be that a saved person without love is nothing?

In regard to faith moving mountains in 1 Corinthians 13:12, Paul uses hyperbole in verse 13 about understanding ALL mysteries and ALL knowledge and having faith that can move mountains yet having NO love, but Paul is not using hyperbole about the importance of love. Faith works through love (Galatians 5:6), but we are saved through faith, not faith "plus love/acts of charity etc.." If we have faith, then we have hope. Hebrews 11:1 - Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

Love is the greatest quality between faith, hope and love (1 Corinthians 13:13) because God is love and it outlasts faith and hope. Long after the "evidence of things not seen" (Hebrews 11:1) are now seen and we are no longer looking for the "blessed hope" - (expectation of what is sure) and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ (Titus 2:13) because we are now in His presence, love will still be the principle that governs all that God and his saints are and do throughout eternity in the new heaven and new earth.

Paul is not teaching that even if our faith is genuine that our faith cannot save us without producing "enough" love/acts of charity etc.. which culminates in salvation by works. Paul is stressing the importance of love, not teaching that faith in Christ is insufficient to save us without the merits of our best efforts to love.

All who are truly born again have love. Why? Because we (believers) have received the love of God in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us (Romans 5:5) when we believed the gospel (Ephesians 1:13). We love Him because He first loved us (1 John 4:19). 1 John 4:7 - Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8 He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

 

[ozso]

This is, I think, a very common misunderstanding. "Works" referenced with respect to Salvation have to do with Christ's Work of Redemption alone--nothing sinful human beings can do can provide themselves with Eternal Life.

On the other hand, all Christians need to do Works of Christian righteousness. If you don't do any Works of Righteousness, you certainly will *not* be Saved.

I'm trying to figure out how the second paragraph doesn't contradict the first.