Populist Conservatism and Constitutional Order

[rambot]

So, those are the only requirements for being an 'elitist'? How about Obama?

List of presidents of the United States by net worth - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Well, at least the list isn't exlusively Republican.

Why in the hellhounds leash would you think that I would exclude based on political party? I gave my definitions CLEARLY and political affiliation is utterly irrelevant.

ABSOLUTELY Obama is an elitist class.


Do YOU think it's only Democrats who are elitists?

So, those are the only requirements for being an 'elitist'?

Yes.
I'm still waiting to hear how you define an elitists....


Elitism is a POWER class. Not a knowledge class.

Really? Remember Dr. Fauci?.....and the 'scientific' demand that only isolation from everyone could contain covid?......hence the shut-down of the US economy?.....wasn't that long ago. There are still lingering effects of it now from people insisting they continue to work from home after all this time.

Quick Question:
Did Dr Fauci RECOMMEND it or did he proclaim and use the force of law behind?

I don't know how it works in the US: Whether the President shut it down or the head of the CDC.



I know where I live here we had a conservative government at the time that REFUSED the recommendations from the head of our health system which they were legally obliged to follow. And because they weren't legally obliged to follow, the argument is they made their own decisions...which meant the sitting government is now able to sue the government. And the government that got voted in is, unfortunately even less likely to support Albertans who follow order, and is actively encouraging those people TO sue the government.

Our government is a joke and our electorate simply isn't informed enough and doesn't care enough.

 

[civilwarbuff]

Why in the hellhounds leash would you think that I would exclude based on political party? I gave my definitions CLEARLY and political affiliation is utterly irrelevant.

I didn't make any such claim; however you only attack R's as elitist. Glad to hear otherwise.....maybe we will even read the occasional claim from you.

I'm still waiting to hear how you define an elitists....

I don't make that definition. I wait for others to do it for themselves.

 

[civilwarbuff]

Quick Question:
Did Dr Fauci RECOMMEND it or did he proclaim and use the force of law behind?

No one has ever claimed Fauci used 'force of law' for anything. He is/was considered THE expert by the WH and listened to.....until later.

 

[civilwarbuff]

Probably best we get back to the subject at hand.

 

[rambot]

I didn't make any such claim; however you only attack R's as elitist.

What are you talking about? That is just a lie. I have NEVER said anything like that because I have never THOUGHT anything like that.

I attack Trump as elitists and I gave my definition and reasons why. That's the only person on this thread I have labelled as elitists.

Glad to hear otherwise.....maybe we will even read the occasional claim from you.

Instead of giving your opinion on this matter, you keep strawmanning and badgering me when I have been clear and direct since we started talking about this.

Why don't you answer whether you think trump is elitist?

I don't make that definition. I wait for others to do it for themselves.

1) I tell my students and my children that they should NEVER be using words that they don't understand or know the meaning of. I feel an obligation to say that here too.

2) That is what someone who worships an elitists but doesn't want to define them as an elitist would say.

 

[civilwarbuff]

Why don't you answer whether you think trump is elitist?

What has he done to make me think he is?

1) I tell my students and my children that they should NEVER be using words that they don't understand or know the meaning of. I feel an obligation to say that here too.

2) That is what someone who worships an elitists but doesn't want to define them as an elitist would say.

Wow, you got a F- on that essay.

 

[rambot]

What has he done to make me think he is?

This sentence doesn't make sense because you haven't even defined what you think an "Elitist" is. How could I possible answer that question?

Wow, you got a F- on that essay.

Wow. An F-.


You've really proved your point .

 

[civilwarbuff]

This sentence doesn't make sense because you haven't even defined what you think an "Elitist" is. How could I possible answer that question?

Well, you obviously have your own personal definition; why don't you throw that out....

You've really proved your point .

Thank you. I didn't realize it was going to be so easy.

 

[rambot]

Well, you obviously have your own personal definition; why don't you throw that out....

1) You not providing a definition should not lead to say "well obviously you have your own personal definition".


2)Are....are you okay? Is this goading?

I've given my definition and referred to the fact that I've given my definition probably 4 times. I can't imagine how it's been missed but I will presume that you are not goading me.


Again....what is YOUR definition?

 

[Pommer]

It doesn't necessarily require government to get bigger and bigger in order to effect the changes we want. On the other hand, getting the changes that constitutional conservatives & conservative populism wants would result in having a smaller, more efficient federal government.

Populism (from either the Left or the Right) has to move towards authoritarianism, otherwise it peters-out, and ceases to effect the change it was placed into power to achieve.

 

[Vambram]

Populism (from either the Left or the Right) has to move towards authoritarianism, otherwise it peters-out, and ceases to effect the change it was placed into power to achieve.

I disagree.
Constitutional Populism does not need to be authoritarianism. Instead, we simply lawfully apply the laws written in the Constitution instead of adding zillions and zillions of extra rules, laws and regulations.

 

[rambot]

I disagree.
Constitutional Populism does not need to be authoritarianism. Instead, we simply lawfully apply the laws written in the Constitution instead of adding zillions and zillions of extra rules, laws and regulations.

I wonder if you could see how problematic it may be to have agrarian rules from 300 years ago b3ing the extent od your laws?

Dare I suggest some of rhr laws written since the constitution was made were pretty good and useful?

 

[Vambram]

I wonder if you could see how problematic it may be to have agrarian rules from 300 years ago b3ing the extent od your laws?

Dare I suggest some of rhr laws written since the constitution was made were pretty good and useful?

Obviously, the US Constitution does empower the Congress & the Senate to write laws, and the executive branch to enforce the laws. But, do you really want a federal government that has zillions of rules and regulations that were not codified by the legislative branch into federal laws?

 

[rambot]

Obviously, the US Constitution does empower the Congress & the Senate to write laws, and the executive branch to enforce the laws. But, do you really want a federal government that has zillions of rules and regulations that were not codified by the legislative branch into federal laws?

That's the problem; when you create a caricature of "zillions" I can't really answer that.

I think you'd have to be a special kind of idiot to think ALL zillion of them would need to go just because they exist. But I'm sure there are some rhat could go, yes.

 

[Vambram]

That's the problem; when you create a caricature of "zillions" I can't really answer that.

I think you'd have to be a special kind of idiot to think ALL zillion of them would need to go just because they exist. But I'm sure there are some rhat could go, yes.

"Zillions" is obviously a hyperbolic word I am using to illustrate the problem. However, I am glad that you agree that at least some of the Federal government rules and regulations need to go away.

 

[rambot]

"Zillions" is obviously a hyperbolic word I am using to illustrate the problem. However, I am glad that you agree that at least some of the Federal government rules and regulations need to go away.

But see. Here's the thing. I ASSUME that but I don't KNOW that....just like you.

Also I can certainly say there are some important environmental regulations and to have a prez say "don't worry about environmental regs" should be troubling



No disrespect to y'all but BY FAR, my favorite thing about America is its natural splendor. You guys are WAAAAY more than blessed in that regard. To think you got a president rhat is willing to throw that away or even COMPROMISE it should be worrisome.

 

[Richard T]

Elitism, as used in the US is such a fascinating word.
Is it politicians?
Is it the 0.1-1%?
Is it the scientific establishment?
Is it scientists?
Is it universities and professors?

I've never associated knowledge with elitism because knowledge, TRULY does little to grant anyone any direct power. And my tendency would be to group the word "elitism" with a "power" level and not a knowledge level.

I will give you my thoughts on what elites are. To some extent my thoughts are influenced by the text which used the theme of elitism for over twenty years and applied it to the study of American government. Schubert, Dye & Zeigler, The Irony of Democracy: An Uncommon Introduction to American Politics. (over 20 editions)

Elites are sort of a class of people that work together for some goals. They include politicians, think tanks, media, (some entertainers) famous scientists, academics and many of the CEO and owners of large companies. It takes more than fame though, you have to buy in to be one of the true elites. Ever wonder why some people rise so fast? It is because as a group these elites finance candidates from both parties. They also give recruits positions. Many work for hedge funds, private equity, etc at least to start out. The goal is to widen the base of lower level loyalists and move them up when it helps the group as a whole. Those that show real promise get sweetheart deals. They show up in secret societies. Some are loosely associated, and others are formal members of groups that try to shape the future. For the most part they coalesce, but Trump is somewhat independent so many do hate him. It might seem that Trump is one of these elites but instead Trump has his own coalition. The first term he was fooled and picked some of the mainstream (deep state) elites. He still has some of those now but I think he has been far more careful this term. The text does not reach all these conclusions, instead it sees elites as "noblesse oblige," a French term for nobles having the responsibility to care for others. In older American times, I think this was true to an extent, but at some point many basically have looked after themselves though I imagine many are deluded into thinking that their ideas (even perversions) are beneficial to society. Most are Godless, so the whole foundation is off.

The question though is the new elite group headed by Trump really going to offer the average guy a hand up? Trump tries but I am not sure how much he places priorities towards all his his voters. It seems his goal is to make money, reduce taxes for the rich and get government off some people's back. This is not bad for the average guy but if Trump concentrates policies to benefit just the rich, I think he will fail unless it really does trickle down. There are so many structural problems too. Like debt, unfunded liabilities (social security), and potential international conflicts. It really is out of Trump's hand though certainly up to God.

So back to the original elites - They can either pull the plug on Trump and make lots of bad things happen, or they can tolerate his antics and policies, waiting for four years as they retool and absorb even many of the new Trump players in D.C. A lot of stuff they do not care about. One thing they hold dear though is immigration and trade. They are hardcore globalists.

Trump is not. I wanted so badly for Obama to fail, or at least Biden. But now it seems like Trump could be the fall guy. The end times is probably just too near. I don't buy the peace and prosperity for four years. It is too much like 1929. The birth pangs are taking off so it likely will be worse. A Trump failure too will make it easy for the globalists; as the last vestiges of nationalism are crushed, leaving adherents of "America first" disillusioned and defeated. It actually could be God's will, with the pain bringing more to revival than "prosperity." Praise God though if this is right we are living at the end of the church age, and hopefully the start of a great revival/renewal.
To me the only thing is the timing. Will Trump have a honeymoon, to clean up the FBI, to build up defenses, to lighten the deficits, to put into action some of the things he has been talking about? Could we even get though four years of peace? Yes, it is possible. I know too that there are more definitions and other hypotheses on elites work, recruit and plan than just mine. It is certainly worth consideration though. God bless

 

[rambot]

I will give you my thoughts on what elites are. To some extent my thoughts are influenced by the text which used the theme of elitism for over twenty years and applied it to the study of American government. Schubert, Dye & Zeigler, The Irony of Democracy: An Uncommon Introduction to American Politics. (over 20 editions)

Elites are sort of a class of people that work together for some goals.

If I may be bold, I feel like this definition as it is leaves far too much space for interpretation.
Teachers in a school; students doing a project; a grass roots community soccer league organization.... would all be considered elites with this definition.


Should I have assumed that there was more attributes to this definition buried in the rest of the paragraph? "power in society" "rich"?


It feels...lacking as a definition. Sure gives a lot of examples though.

 

[Richard T]

If I may be bold, I feel like this definition as it is leaves far too much space for interpretation.
Teachers in a school; students doing a project; a grass roots community soccer league organization.... would all be considered elites with this definition.


Should I have assumed that there was more attributes to this definition buried in the rest of the paragraph? "power in society" "rich"?


It feels...lacking as a definition. Sure gives a lot of examples though.

Yes, you are right. My definitions are lacking. The top elite group I am talking about some might refer to them as the "deep state." This however seems incorrect, because they are globalists and while they have some power in the USA and other states, their agenda is worldwide. To be one of them you have to be part of the group that yields significant influence and has joined in a world agenda. Some serve just pieces of their fragmented agenda. This takes money, fame, good credentials, and influence. A regular teacher or student would not reach this level. However, an Ivy league student who is outstanding or someone that is starting to make moves in politics or some influential field on their own could be a candidate to become one of the elites if they took notice.
I admit the lines are somewhat blurry. At the top, the monied interests have people in both parties and are pretty well represented. Trump ran around with these people some, even donating money to candidates from both parties but he was never interested in their broad agenda that I can tell. His run for office overtook them, though some elites followed to support Trump's ideas, likely just a means to stay in office and maintain at least some influence. Others tried to maintain the status quo and got pushed out.

To sum up national/international elitism is a somewhat loose confederation. They seem to take their cues from certain groups that are invitation only. Trump seems to have set them back but I think they still wield some influence within Trump's administration. Elites with an agenda will never be eradicated. I and others can only speculate on how things actually work. I would think too that their agenda fits with God's tribulation agenda.

 

[civilwarbuff]

Is this goading?

I dunno....is this goading?.......

Again....what is YOUR definition?