Is morality objective, even without God?

[Aaron112]

In the Bible, Revelation 2:5says, "Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first". This verse is a message from Jesus to the church of Ephesus. It emphasizes the importance of repentance and returning to one's first love for God.

Here are some key points from Revelation 2:5:

• Repentance
  Repentance means to change one's mind, which can lead to a change in attitude, emotion, and action.
  
  
• First works
  The "first works" are the works of faith and love that encourage one's love for God.
  
  
• Warning
  If one does not repent, Jesus will come and remove their lampstand from its place.
  

Other Bible verses that mention repentance include:

• Revelation 2:16-18
  "Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth".
  
  
• Revelation 16:9
  Unbelievers refuse to repent and continue to curse God, even as hundred-pound hailstones fall.
  
  
• Revelation 2:21
  Jesus predicts
• 
  
• strict punishment for Jezebel and her followers,
• 
  
• who led Christians into immorality and idolatry.

 

[BCP1928]

​

"If I repent of anything, it is very likely to be my good behavior. What demon possessed me that I behaved so well?"

--Henry David Thoreau​

 

[partinobodycular]

murder is always objectively wrong...

...Rape is always objectively wrong.

Ugh... really? Murder and rape are always wrong because we define them them that way. It's like finding deep meaning in the fact that bachelors are always unmarried. Duh...

but that won't change that murder and rape are objectively wrong and Evil acts.

Things don't become objectively right or wrong simply because you say they are.

 

[Zaha Torte]

Ugh... really? Murder and rape are always wrong because we define them them that way. It's like finding deep meaning in the fact that bachelors are always unmarried. Duh...

That is not how objective reality works.

You cannot call a Man a Woman and then all of a sudden, he is one.

Things don't become objectively right or wrong simply because you say they are.

Correct. Murder and rape are objectively Evil regardless of what I, you or anyone says.

 

[Bradskii]

This is why morals that are based on reasons...are not morals at all.

Aren't there reasons for not acting immoraly? Is it not possible to determine what those reasons are?

 

[Bradskii]

Still trying to be obtuse in your reply?

The issue is the morality of the human act ... not the musings of a confused human. Let me know when you have a human act to review.

So you can't decide on whether something that you are considering is moral or not? I think this is the whole idea of morality. You can determine how to act correctly before you act. It's something of a waste of time musing about whether you should have done something after you have done it.

So let's make it an act. I've told my partner that she is to be subject to me. Now you have everything that you need.

 

[Bradskii]

Why was it obvious? Could it be because morality is objective?

I had to make it an extreme example so that people would think there was an obvious answer. That there'd be a general acceptance that the girl obviously did not have to honour her father. That doesn't make it objective. It just makes it easier to make a personal decision as to what the correct answer should be.

Now we know that the 'command' doesn't have to be obeyed in all circumstances, it is plainly obvious that we each have to make a personal decision whether to or not depending on the individual circumstances.

We decide what do to in the moment and we can believe that it is right...

Precisely my point.

- but we do not determine if the choice was right.

No. That's exactly what we do. Why on earth wouldn't we choose what we think is right? Do we actually know if it's right? To be honest, no. Unless we're omniscient then we can't be 100% sure. Which is precisely my second point. Even IF there is an objectively correct answer, we cannot know what it is. So it is a complete waste of time claiming that morality is objective if we have no way possible to determine it.

Which then leads to my last point. Because at this juncture you'll say 'Well, just ask God. He's omniscient. So He'll obviously know and He can tell you'. Except that what you think He tells you might be different to what I think He tells me. And I mean completely different. So there's no way to know who is correct.

So to summarise:

1. We make personal choices as to what is right.
2. We cannot know if there is an objective answer, so claiming that there is one is a waste of time.
3. If we ask God what the objective answer is, He seems to give different answers to different people so we still don't know what it is.

Then you believe that God's Law is naive - for to love our neighbor's as ourselves is the second of the two commandments that the whole Law hinges upon.

And treat others as you yourself would like to be treated. I see that as a bargain. If someone doesn't fulfill their end then I'm not obliged to fulfill mine. So if the father treats her daughter like a piece of meat then she has no obligation to honour him. And yes, that was an extreme example so it was easy to understand.

So, you believe that God is Good and naive?

I don't believe in God in the first instance.

 

[Aaron112]

Except that what you think He tells you might be different to what I think He tells me. And I mean completely different. So there's no way to know who is correct.

Thankfully He is not so .... Every man He Calls and Chooses, He tells the truth to; the same truth He reveals to every other man He Calls and Chooses, and His Word thus confirms. Perfectly.
Those who do not know Him, cannot ever understand.

 

[Bradskii]

You were the one that claimed that what people do with the facts will vary from person to person.

So, if two people were given the same set of facts - and they both came to different conclusions and made completely different decisions based on the same facts - that means that facts are not the determining factor in the decisions that we make.

Obviously people interpret things differently. This hardly needs to be said. Of course we all do. If you want to drill down to the actual rock bottom position of why we make decisions then it's how we interpret the facts that are available.

And I would argue that many people - maybe even the majority - at least in this country - make decisions without facts all the time.

That is simply not possible. I'll ask you if you should vote for person A or person B? I'm not going to give you any more facts but you need to make a decision. What will it be?

What you actually mean, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, is that people make decisions based on insufficient facts and lies. Do I really have to say 'You need facts. Oh, and the facts must be true'. No, I don't. Because the very definition of a fact is something 'that is known or proved to be true'.

 

[Neogaia777]

@Bradskii

I'll choose to respect the fact that you don't believe in any kind of God/god/gods right now, etc.

But if there was a God who was omniscient and we asked Him for a truly objective answer to maybe even one individual case, etc, (for which He might have to reference, or cross reference some, or maybe even many, other cases, etc) then do you even think we would have enough time (or maybe enough brain or mental capacity) for Him to give us a truly objective answer?

He might even then ask us maybe "How much time do you have?" And also maybe "How fast or slow do I need to go or can I go in order for you to be able to keep up with it, etc?" (And without our fuzzy little heads exploding, etc). It's a calculation ultimately, and there are a lot, a lot of factors, etc.

Take Care/God Bless.

 

[Bradskii]

I made this comment in a discussion I was having with another forum member. And that forum member confirmed in Post #380 that they believed that morality was decided by consensus. If I had never asked my completely honest, appropriate and relevant question, we never would have known what they believed.

I thought it was plainly obvious that I was talking about me. Which is why I asked you to use the quote function.

Can you share some facts about morality?

It's our understanding of the correct way to act in different circumstances.

Not true. People make uninformed decisions all the time.

Then they don't have enough facts.

Yet you try and present each commandment of God as if they are.

If there are good reasons for them then those reasons will be why I choose to act accordingly. There have to be good reasons for following any command.

This point about the scientific method and facts is just as irrelevant now as it ever was in a discussion about objective morality.

I'm not going to explain it again. I have a reasonable command of the English language so if you don't understand what I'm saying after multiple explanations from me then the fault is not mine.

 

[Bradskii]

Thankfully He is not so .... Every man He Calls and Chooses, He tells the truth to; the same truth He reveals to every other man He Calls and Chooses, and His Word thus confirms. Perfectly.
Those who do not know Him, cannot ever understand.

There is currently a discussion between two people, one who thinks that a wife should be subject to her husband and one who doesn't. I'm absolutely certain that they both believe that their position is the one that God supports.

Their positions are diametrically opposed, so they both can't be right. One of them is not getting the right divine feedback. How do we know which one? The one that's a priest?

 

[Bradskii]

@Bradskii

I'll choose to respect the fact that you don't believe in any kind of God/god/gods right now, etc.

But if there was a God who was omniscient and we asked Him for a truly objective answer to maybe even one individual case, etc, (for which He might have to reference, or cross reference some, or maybe even many, other cases, etc) then do you even think we would have enough time (or maybe enough brain or mental capacity) for Him to give us a truly objective answer?

He might even then ask us maybe "How much time do you have?" And also maybe "How fast or slow do I need to go or can I go in order for you to be able to keep up with it, etc?" (And without our fuzzy little heads exploding, etc). It's a calculation ultimately, and there are a lot, a lot of factors, etc.

Take Care/God Bless.

Well, He could simply say 'Do X' and skip the reasons. But if someone else says 'Hang on, He told me not to do X', then how do we know who is right?

 

[Neogaia777]

Well, He could simply say 'Do X' and skip the reasons. But if someone else says 'Hang on, He told me not to do X', then how do we know who is right?

Can you give me an example of conflicting messages or commandments maybe?

Jesus did try to make it as simple as possible though with just two of them, by which he said everything else said/heard from God hangs, etc.

But simple "stuff" has it's limitations, etc. Like what we are talking about right now about "objective morality", etc. And I think you and I are both in agreement, or are on the same page when we think that would have to include all of the exceptions, etc, and that's where it's not so simple anymore, and is in fact, "very, very far from it" at that point, etc. It's like our own laws that try to describe morality in a matter of degrees and/or even sometimes tries to make complete exceptions in some cases sometimes, etc, and have you ever noticed that with each individual exception how that book just keeps getting longer, and longer, and longer, and much, much more complicated, etc, to the point that we now need very, very much highly educated lawyers to explain it to us, or represent us in court, or interpret it for us, etc, and even they don't know or understand all of it, or have all of it memorized, or 100% committed to memory most of the time, etc. Well, just think how long that "book", or those "books" (plural) would have to be to be "perfect", or 100% truly objective, etc. Like I said, how much time do you have, and how good are your mental faculties, etc, because you'd have to have a lot of a lot of both probably, and that's just only putting it mildly, etc.

Simple is good, and I like simple, and it sometimes or most of the time works for the majority sometimes, etc, but exceptions is where you have to include the details, and all of all of the details to be 100% perfect, or 100% truly objective, etc, and how many of us have the time, or maybe even the mental capacities/capabilities, for all of that, etc. Not very many of us, more than likely, etc.

Take Care/God Bless @Bradskii

 

[Neogaia777]

Well, He could simply say 'Do X' and skip the reasons. But if someone else says 'Hang on, He told me not to do X', then how do we know who is right?

As far as people just saying that God personally told them X, but X cannot be verified or confirmed or agreed with or doesn't ring true to anyone else elsewhere, etc, then I would be very, very much highly skeptical of X no matter who they were, or who they thought they were, or what they were saying, etc.

Take Care.

 

[Bradskii]

Can you give me an example of conflicting messages or commandments maybe?

Should you honour your parents if they are abusive? Some say yes. Some no.

 

[Aaron112]

God and historically His people, when faithful, honor their parents.
The people of the world often do not. (though some do better than so-called 'Christians' , or so it seems)

 

[Bradskii]

God and historically His people, when faithful, honor their parents.

So to be faithful to God you have to honour an abusive parent? Does that actually make sense to you? Because it doesn't make any sense at all to me.

 

[Neogaia777]

Should you honour your parents if they are abusive? Some say yes. Some no.

It often does you a lot of benefit if you can truly, truly forgive them. Whatever that might look like, etc. And the quicker, or earlier the better, etc. Probably not instantaneously, but the sooner the better, etc. You're not really doing anything to them carrying it, and carrying it will only negatively affect you, and your other interpersonal relationships in your life, etc.

 

[Aaron112]

So to be faithful to God

Love your enemies, if they are hungry feed them.....

God's Ways are far far far high about man's ways.... and God's Ways are right.