Geocentric or Heliocentric (what shape is the earth) ?

[Apple Sky]

I'm sorry, but I don't believe that.

You only have to look around you & the world today to know this is true.

 

[Strong in Him]

You only have to look around you & the world today to know this is true.

Really?

You have evidence that thieves, criminals, wicked people etc. were once Christians who turned away from God due to their belief in a globe earth?

The shape of the earth has nothing to do with salvation, nor can it cause someone to turn away from God.

 

[Apple Sky]

You have evidence that thieves, criminals, wicked people etc. were once Christians who turned away from God due to their belief in a globe earth?

I never mentioned Christians, watched the video and you just may understand why & how they try to hide God.

 

[Strong in Him]

I never mentioned Christians,

You said:

alas, as this is also mentioned in the video, the globe & space has sadly caused many to drift away from the word of God.

True, you didn't mention Christians - but a person has to be reading the word of God, the Bible, before they can drift away from it.

Have you any evidence that people turn away from God's word solely because of the shape of the earth - rather than because of suffering, indifference, unanswered prayer and so on?
The Flat Earth society near where I live describe themselves as non-religious. They don't even read God's word and they still believe the earth is flat.

 

[Apple Sky]

True, you didn't mention Christians - but a person has to be reading the word of God, the Bible, before they can drift away from it.

There are many who read the word of God who are not Christians but you've to admit there has been a decline in numbers who now read the Bible.

Have you any evidence that people turn away from God's word solely because of the shape of the earth

I don't need evidence just look around you and you can see the damage your globe has done to God, his word & his creation.

The Flat Earth society near where I live describe themselves as non-religious. They don't even read God's word and they still believe the earth is flat.

I have no association with the flat earth society & nor do I ever want to.

 

[Strong in Him]

There are many who read the word of God who are not Christians but you've to admit there has been a decline in numbers who now read the Bible.

Yes, probably.
But you were linking a decline in reading the Bible to a globe earth. That's nonsense and you have offered no evidence for it.

I don't need evidence just look around you and you can see the damage your globe has done to God, his word & his creation.

Ridiculous. Sorry, but it's true.
I suppose God sent a flood upon the earth because people failed to believe that it was flat? I suppose Putin decided to invade Ukraine because the earth is a globe? Hamas decided to take Israeli hostages because their leader discovered that the earth is a globe? Hitler persecuted the Jews because of the shape of the earth? The increase in food banks and homelessness is because the earth is a globe, I suppose? You'll be telling me next that all the food rolls off it. Murder, child abuse, rape, theft and so on are all because the earth is a globe, I suppose?
No!
All these things are due to sin - bad decisions, people without morals, the economy and so on. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the shape of the earth. The Bible says heaps of things about sin - the heart being wicked, the first Adam leading us into sin and death, mankind falling short of the glory of God - and not one thing about the shape of the earth. If you don't believe that evil is due to godlessness and sin, maybe YOU need to read the Bible.

I have no association with the flat earth society & nor do I ever want to.

I didn't say you had to; you're not listening/reading my posts properly.
You said - and you have said it before as well - that the shape of the earth is causing people to turn away from God's word. You have previously claimed that is people believed the earth to be flat, they would then realise that the Bible is true, and start reading it.

Whatever you think of the FE society, they believe the earth is flat (the clue is in the name.) Yet the FE society in my town says that they are non-religious - therefore they don't follow a religion, therefore they don't read the Bible.
There are people who agree with you that the earth is flat, yet do not read the Bible and have not turned to God. That disproves your claim that those who accept a flat earth will start reading, and believing, God's word.

Salvation and eternal life have nothing at all to do with the shape of the earth.
You have even said, yourself, that the shape of the earth is not important. Now, you seem to be claiming that it is and can prevent people from knowing God.
Not a chance.

 

[Apple Sky]

Yes, probably.
But you were linking a decline in reading the Bible to a globe earth. That's nonsense and you have offered no evidence for it.

Ridiculous. Sorry, but it's true.
I suppose God sent a flood upon the earth because people failed to believe that it was flat? I suppose Putin decided to invade Ukraine because the earth is a globe? Hamas decided to take Israeli hostages because their leader discovered that the earth is a globe? Hitler persecuted the Jews because of the shape of the earth? The increase in food banks and homelessness is because the earth is a globe, I suppose? You'll be telling me next that all the food rolls off it. Murder, child abuse, rape, theft and so on are all because the earth is a globe, I suppose?
No!
All these things are due to sin - bad decisions, people without morals, the economy and so on. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the shape of the earth. The Bible says heaps of things about sin - the heart being wicked, the first Adam leading us into sin and death, mankind falling short of the glory of God - and not one thing about the shape of the earth. If you don't believe that evil is due to godlessness and sin, maybe YOU need to read the Bible.


I didn't say you had to; you're not listening/reading my posts properly.
You said - and you have said it before as well - that the shape of the earth is causing people to turn away from God's word. You have previously claimed that is people believed the earth to be flat, they would then realise that the Bible is true, and start reading it.

Whatever you think of the FE society, they believe the earth is flat (the clue is in the name.) Yet the FE society in my town says that they are non-religious - therefore they don't follow a religion, therefore they don't read the Bible.
There are people who agree with you that the earth is flat, yet do not read the Bible and have not turned to God. That disproves your claim that those who accept a flat earth will start reading, and believing, God's word.

Salvation and eternal life have nothing at all to do with the shape of the earth.
You have even said, yourself, that the shape of the earth is not important. Now, you seem to be claiming that it is and can prevent people from knowing God.
Not a chance.

Just forget it, you'll never understand not in a million years.

 

[The Liturgist]

as this is also mentioned in the video, the globe & space has sadly caused many to drift away from the word of God.

That’s an unsupported claim, which seems doubtful to me. And also, as I have stated, the heliocentric model is wrong in that the sun is not the center of the universe (there is no center of the universe), and the sun itself orbits in the Milky Way Galaxy, the sight of which at night in its beauty has caused many people to believe in God. Space is extremely beautiful, and all Christians I know personally were greatly inspired by it.

Also the majority of people I know in the aerospace industry who were active during the golden years of the 1940s-90s, who obtained engineering degrees largely through the GI bill as a result of service in WWII, Korea and Viet Nam, and who worked for various companies, were pious Christians.

This notably includes my grandfather, and his dear friends, who took me to church every Sunday, and who would watch NOVA with me every Saturday night on PBS, if it was about a subject that was of mutual interest to us, like space exploration or computers (if it was about biology, we tended to go to bed), after the British comedies which my grandfather, grandmother and myself would watch together (in the 1980s these included Are You Being Served, and in the 1990s were Keeping Up Appearances, and As Time Goes By, which was my grandparents favorite; they found Keeping Up Appearances amusing but some of the humor was a bit too raunchy for their taste).

Thus has it occurred to you that when you make this kind of statement you are causing deep personal hurt to a number of members of the forum who either work in aerospace or had relatives in aerospace who ensured they were raised as a Christian and who were models of Christian piety?

Indeed my grandfather’s brother Wendell was a Methodist missionary in Angola, in Africa, who was tortured by the Lusotropicalist* regime of the Fascist Portuguese dictator Antonio Salazar during the Angola Crisis in 1957, when the various groups seeking to spread the Gospel to those people in the interior who still believed in the indigenous religion were falsely accused by the paranoid Portuguese dictator of promoting Angolan independence and of being in an alliance with the Communists. You would be hard pressed to find anyone more opposed to communism than my uncle Wendell and his wife.

*Lusotropicalism was the belief among Portuguese Fascists that Portugal’s survival depended on it retaining its remaining overseas colonies such as Angola, Mozambique, Guinea-Bissau, East Timor, Goa and Macau.

 

[Phil G]

the globe & space has sadly caused many to drift away from the word of God.

Not true. The testimony of someone like this draws me closer to the Lord and His Word.

Flat earthers pull me away.

 

[Apple Sky]

That’s an unsupported claim, which seems doubtful to me. And also, as I have stated, the heliocentric model is wrong in that the sun is not the center of the universe (there is no center of the universe), and the sun itself orbits in the Milky Way Galaxy, the sight of which at night in its beauty has caused many people to believe in God. Space is extremely beautiful, and all Christians I know personally were greatly inspired by it.

Also the majority of people I know in the aerospace industry who were active during the golden years of the 1940s-90s, who obtained engineering degrees largely through the GI bill as a result of service in WWII, Korea and Viet Nam, and who worked for various companies, were pious Christians.

This notably includes my grandfather, and his dear friends, who took me to church every Sunday, and who would watch NOVA with me every Saturday night on PBS, if it was about a subject that was of mutual interest to us, like space exploration or computers (if it was about biology, we tended to go to bed), after the British comedies which my grandfather, grandmother and myself would watch together (in the 1980s these included Are You Being Served, and in the 1990s were Keeping Up Appearances, and As Time Goes By, which was my grandparents favorite; they found Keeping Up Appearances amusing but some of the humor was a bit too raunchy for their taste).

Thus has it occurred to you that when you make this kind of statement you are causing deep personal hurt to a number of members of the forum who either work in aerospace or had relatives in aerospace who ensured they were raised as a Christian and who were models of Christian piety?

Indeed my grandfather’s brother Wendell was a Methodist missionary in Angola, in Africa, who was tortured by the Lusotropicalist* regime of the Fascist Portuguese dictator Antonio Salazar during the Angola Crisis in 1957, when the various groups seeking to spread the Gospel to those people in the interior who still believed in the indigenous religion were falsely accused by the paranoid Portuguese dictator of promoting Angolan independence and of being in an alliance with the Communists. You would be hard pressed to find anyone more opposed to communism than my uncle Wendell and his wife.

*Lusotropicalism was the belief among Portuguese Fascists that Portugal’s survival depended on it retaining its remaining overseas colonies such as Angola, Mozambique, Guinea-Bissau, East Timor, Goa and Macau.

I understand all what you have posted but sorry, the truth is the truth & there's no getting away from it.

The sun, moon & the stars move within the firmament on a daily basis just as God had intended them too.

 

[Apple Sky]

Not true. The testimony of someone like this draws me closer to the Lord and His Word.

Flat earthers pull me away.

They were only 250 mile up i'm surprised they didn't bump into some of those supposed satellites that are up there.

 

[Phil G]

They were only 250 mile up i'm surprised they didn't bump into some of those supposed satellites that are up there.

That’s your takeaway from the video??? That’s a bit of an uneducated comment. It’s like saying I’m surprised planes don’t bump into each other.

 

[The Liturgist]

The sun, moon & the stars move within the firmament on a daily basis just as God had intended them too.

Indeed, if one understands the firmament as referring to the vacuum of space, which is an elegant and poetic usage.

But if one believes it refers to a hard shell, one has subscribed to a conspiracy theory which is being actively promoted to evangelical Christians by atheists in a false flag operation in an attempt to discredit our religion and discourage people from converting.

The reality is that half of the great scientific achievements throughout history were made by Christians (with Jews responsible for another 15%, and Muslims having made valuable contributions to mathematics after gaining access to ancient Greek texts translated into Arabic by Syriac Orthodox monks at the Monastery of St. Matthew near Mosul and the Syrian Monastery in Egypt, starting in the 10th century AD), which is ironic considering Muhammed was the only religious leader of the first millenium to teach the world was flat (and he was regarded as a heretic by his near contemporary, the Orthodox Christian monk and Patristic theologian St. John of Damascus, although not specifically for that, since Muhammed taught so many falsehoods, his error concerning the shape of the world is unimportant).

Also most accomplishments in aerospace involved Christian engineers and Christian pilots and astronauts, as well as secretly Christian cosmonauts.

My friends @Jipsah @prodromos and I have repeatedly tried to explain this to you. But failing this, I am willing to take you and your husband as my guests on a trip to certain places in the UK or in Europe and the Mediterranean from which I believe you would be able to see what I have seen. For I have beheld the curvature of the Earth with my own eyes.

Also, you used the word “too” incorrectly. You want it with a single o in that context, although as far as literary style is concerned, you could have omitted the words “them too” altogether without any loss of meaning, indeed, they might be grammatically redundant.

 

[The Liturgist]

That’s your takeaway from the video??? That’s a bit of an uneducated comment. It’s like saying I’m surprised planes don’t bump into each other.

Actually collisions with space junk have happened, and indeed on one occasion a window on the Challenger was hit by a paint chip and damaged, on STS-007, and more recently the cupola on the ISS was chipped by some debris: This is what happens when a tiny piece of flying space debris hits the ISS

 

[The Liturgist]

According to Bible Gateway, the KJV is in the public domain - unless Bible Gateway is a U.S.-owned website.

It is.

In the UK and probably other parts of Great Britain such as the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands, and British territories like Gibraltar, Bermuda and the Falklands, the KJV is under perpetual Crown Copyright along with the 1662 Book of Common Prayer.

 

[Job 33:6]

Indeed, if one understands the firmament as referring to the vacuum of space, which is an elegant and poetic usage.

But if one believes it refers to a hard shell, one has subscribed to a conspiracy theory which is being actively promoted to evangelical Christians by atheists in a false flag operation in an attempt to discredit our religion and discourage people from converting.

The reality is that half of the great scientific achievements throughout history were made by Christians (with Jews responsible for another 15%, and Muslims having made valuable contributions to mathematics after gaining access to ancient Greek texts translated into Arabic by Syriac Orthodox monks at the Monastery of St. Matthew near Mosul and the Syrian Monastery in Egypt, starting in the 10th century AD), which is ironic considering Muhammed was the only religious leader of the first millenium to teach the world was flat (and he was regarded as a heretic by his near contemporary, the Orthodox Christian monk and Patristic theologian St. John of Damascus, although not specifically for that, since Muhammed taught so many falsehoods, his error concerning the shape of the world is unimportant).

Also most accomplishments in aerospace involved Christian engineers and Christian pilots and astronauts, as well as secretly Christian cosmonauts.

My friends @Jipsah @prodromos and I have repeatedly tried to explain this to you. But failing this, I am willing to take you and your husband as my guests on a trip to certain places in the UK or in Europe and the Mediterranean from which I believe you would be able to see what I have seen. For I have beheld the curvature of the Earth with my own eyes.

Also, you used the word “too” incorrectly. You want it with a single o in that context, although as far as literary style is concerned, you could have omitted the words “them too” altogether without any loss of meaning, indeed, they might be grammatically redundant.

A solid sky was actually a common view in antiquity and heading back into the ancient near east.

The One who builds His upper chambers in the heavens And has founded His vaulted dome over the earth, He who calls for the waters of the sea And pours them out on the face of the earth, The Lord is His name.
Amos‬ ‭9:6‬ ‭NASB

the fountains of the deep and the windows of the heavens were closed, the rain from the heavens was restrained,
Genesis 8:2

and they saw the God of Israel. Under his feet there was something like a pavement of sapphire stone, like the very heaven for clearness.
Exodus 24:10

Thick clouds enwrap him, so that he does not see, and he walks on the dome of heaven.’
Job 22:14

can you join him in spreading out the skies, hard as a mirror of cast bronze?
Job 37:18

Over the heads of the angels there was something like a dome, shining like crystal, spread out above their heads.
Ezekiel 1:22

He made strong the skies above, When the springs of the deep became fixed, When He set for the sea its boundary So that the water would not transgress His command, When He marked out the foundations of the earth;
Proverbs 8:28-‬29

Now obviously the sky is not solid. But it's a completely different question to ask if the ancient authors of scripture believed that it was.

And believe it or not, many Evangelical Bible scholars would say "yes", of course they believed it to be solid, however, the Bible is not a science textbook. Much like the Catholic Church that persicuted Galileo, it shouldn't be understood as such.

 

[Aaron112]

There are more proofs in the Bible that point towards God creating a Geocentric earth than a Heliocentric earth.

What do you guys think ?

Not proofs.

The Creator's Word Simply Says unchanged forever that He established the earth immovable.

It fit His Plan all along to stop the sun one day.

 

[The Liturgist]

Now obviously the sky is not solid. But it's a completely different question to ask if the ancient authors of scripture believed that it was.

Since Scripture is divinely inspired, it doesn’t matter what the ancient authors of Scripture thought they were writing about, but what they were actually writing about. While I believe that many Old Testament prophets knew much more about Christ than one might assume, and that indeed even the future Eucharist was understood and anticipated, for example, in the shewbread and libations of the Temple in Jerusalem, it is also certainly the case that the full meaning of prophecy is realized only once the prophecy has realized, or as St. Peter puts it rather eloquently in 2 Peter 1:20, that no prophecy is of any private interpretation”*


*The Syriac Peshitta translates this in such a way as to mean “no prophecy is an exposition of itself” (Murdoch, 1844) which is one of several examples where the Peshitta offers an interesting Semitic insight into the Aramaic substrate of the Greek New Testament

 

[The Liturgist]

Not proofs.

The Creator's Word Simply Says unchanged forever that He established the earth immovable.

It fit His Plan all along to stop the sun one day.

God, being omnipotent, would not require a geocentric Earth in order to accomplish that particular miracle. Indeed saying that the Earth must be geocentric because God stopped the apparent movement of the Sun across the sky is a non sequitur, because of divine omnipotence.

 

[Apple Sky]

And believe it or not, many Evangelical Bible scholars would say "yes", of course they believed it to be solid, however, the Bible is not a science textbook. Much like the Catholic Church that persicuted Galileo, it shouldn't be understood as such.

If not a solid dome what about the dangerous Van Allan belts ?

NASA engineer admits they can’t get passed the Van Allen Belts​