Awake Or Asleep?

[All Becomes New]

What do you mean by "in a literal way"?

We are not literally sleeping when we die. So everyone believes sleeping is a metaphor for death. It just depends what we mean by that.

They did not understand it was used to signify death?

It was used to signify death, but it does not explain what happens after death.

Is that a yes, or no?

No. Sleep is the metaphor. It matter how we understand that. You posed a question that asks if I am NOT using sleep as a metaphor, but I AM saying sleep is a metaphor for death. But sleep, as a metaphor by itself, does not answer what happens to us after we die.

Please provide the scripture that says it is a fact.

"Her spirit RETURNED to her"

Paul did not say sleep is equated with being absent from the body, and present with the Lord.

Correct. They are both talking about death in different ways. They are not both talking about sleep, which is just one way the Bible talks about death.

Why did Jesus say that "God is the God of the living"?

He was arguing with the religious leaders, specifically the Sadducees, who do not believe in the resurrection, which is similar in ideology to the idea of soul sleep. Because neither the Sadducees nor you believe in a spiritual, non-physical reality.

Are you saying that Lazarus, the little girl, Stephen, and the Saints, mentioned in the OP are not sleeping in death?

I am saying sleeping is a metaphor to describe death, but sleep is not the ONLY WAY that the Bible talks about death.

Please explain that statement.
This is an opinion.

What do you believe happens after we die?

Are you calling me a liar?

I said you either misunderstood what I was saying or you are a liar, yes. It's also possible that you have no way to categorize what I am saying.

Please tell me what an answer to your question would be.

Well, a good start would be for you to exegete 2 Corinthians 5:8.

 

[All Becomes New]

You do not know.
Thank you.
That's the end of our discussion, on that.

If you cannot explain what your opinion on a scripture is, and yet you are arguing for that opinion, then there is nothing to such an argument.
It's just arguing an opinion. Which is pointless.

Do you believe the physical world is all that there is? Is that why you believe that we are "asleep" when we die?

 

[Mark Quayle]

Say you were walking with Jesus, and he said “Leave; for the girl has not died, but is asleep.”, or “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I go, that I may awaken him out of sleep.”, would your mind wander off into a fantasy world of what sleep is, or would you relate it to sleep?

I would relate it to my own experience of what sleep is. And that would be good enough for those present circumstances, and to have faith that he was going to do something about it. But what is your point? Is there nothing more to be learned about what is called 'sleep' for those who have died?

But more, is our experience of 'sleep' all that it means when God uses that word in such a context?

Why did Jesus use things people can relate to?
Was it not to help them grasp the concept of what he equates it with?
So, when he then says out right... “Lazarus is dead,", would you not then get the connection?

So say I. You suppose me to reject that?

If that works for you, I do not want to interject.
Just remember that it is your opinion, as the scriptures do not say these things. ...and that's okay, if we are struggling on our own, but willing to get help, and allow for adjustment... from the scriptures.

Obviously my opinion, and only a point-of-view at the matter, as I thought I mentioned at the outset.

You said at the start "there is always more that I didn't know than what I had thought before. I may be right, but if so, only in part". So, if that means you are willing to be corrected... by the scriptures, then certainly, I commend you for leaving the door opened.

As I measure others, by that standard I will be measured.

According to the scriptures, you are partially right, but still wrong.
I hope that helps a bit, but where there is time, there is hope.

Right back atcha!

 

[Mark Quayle]

I just want to be sure.
Are you saying that these statements in the following scriptures, are not quite accurate, or not what they are really conveying as read by us?
John 8:31, 32, John 17:17; John 18:37; 1 Timothy 2:3, 4;

I'm trying to understand what you are saying precisely, so that I may respond, not to what I think you are saying, but what you are saying exactly.

Consider paralleling those verses with this: "I am the way, the truth and the life." I mean, if we are going to quote out of context —why not?

 

[CoreyD]

I don't know. I just know that we are "with the Lord" after we die. It could be something similar to Abraham's bosom. I don't know because scripture doesn't really say. However, we know if we are "with the Lord," that we are not unconscious or that we have no awareness of anything. NDEs demonstrate this quite well, too.

Are you saying that Ecclesiastes 5:9, 10 is false?

 

[All Becomes New]

Are you saying that Ecclesiastes 5:9, 10 is false?

Why would I be saying those verses are false?

 

[CoreyD]

Why would I be saying those verses are false?

It's not possible to twist, adjust, or interpret that scripture to mean something other than what it says, because, it compares the living with the dead, and shows the differences between the two. One is conscious. The other is not.

Since you said, "we know if we are "with the Lord," that we are not unconscious", then you are either saying that we do not die, which according to the Bible, renders us unconscious, since our thoughts perish, or you are saying something else.

If you are saying that when we die, we immediately are living with the Lord, then you are saying you do understand or know how to explain how "a person is "with the Lord" after they have died"... but you just said, you do not know.

So there is a need for clarity.

I just realized you have posts before this one. I will look at those after I have had my dinner.

A question before I go.
2 Corinthians 5:1, 6

1 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.​

6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord.​

Would you say Paul explains here, what it means to be absent from the body, and present with the Lord, which harmonizes with Philippians 1:23?
Was Paul speaking of being in heaven with the Lord?
Two questions, I'm sorry.

 

[CoreyD]

We are not literally sleeping when we die.

Who said anything about literally sleeping?
Did Jesus mention literally? Did I mention literally?
It's still good to know we agree on at least one thing.

So everyone believes sleeping is a metaphor for death.

I think we passed that a couple of times. Perhaps it was half a dozen times.

It just depends what we mean by that.

So, that's what you meant. Thanks.
I was not sure if you meant Jesus did not literally refer to sleeping in death.

It was used to signify death, but it does not explain what happens after death.

Sorry to be asking, all the time, but what do you mean by what happens after death?
Do you mean when one dies, or what future lies ahead after one dies?

If you meant the former, yes it does explain what happens when one dies (after death).
Jesus, and the Bible says, one sleeps.
I actually quotes the verses.

Allow me to refresh your mind.
a synagogue official came and bowed down before Him, and said, “My daughter has just died; but come and lay Your hand on her, and she will live.”
When Jesus came into the official’s house and saw the flute players and the crowd in noisy disorder, He said, “Leave; for the girl has not died, but is asleep.” And they began laughing at Him.
After the crowd had been put outside, Jesus went in and took the girl by the hand, and she got up.

Did Jesus lie? No. The girl was asleep in death.
That is the state of the dead.
When one dies, they fall asleep - They went on stoning Stephen as he called on the Lord and said, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!” Then he fell on his knees and cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them!” Having said this, he fell asleep.

This is not like taking sleep in rest, as the disciples mistakenly thought... obviously because they were looking at it from the physical - Jesus spoke of his death, but they thought that He was speaking about taking rest in sleep. So Jesus told them plainly, “Lazarus is dead,".

Paul - a spiritual man - understood clearly the spiritual side to Jesus' words -
But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve, as do the rest who have no hope.
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose from the dead, so also God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep through Jesus.

Yes, Paul understood that those who are dead, are sleeping, not taking rest as we do when we we are sleeping, because they are in God's memorial John 5:28, and have the hope of living again - the dead in Christ will rise first - waking up - I go, that I may awaken him out of sleep, to God, and Christ, they are asleep, due to the fact that they are alive to God - Luke 20:38.

So, Jesus knew exactly what he was saying.
What happen after death? One sleeps in the dust, until they are awoken by Christ.
Daniel 12:2
And many who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake, some to everlasting life, but others to shame and everlasting contempt.

If you picture a sleeping person in the earth, you might miss the point. Just look at it from God's point of view. That is how God sees it, and Christ.
Why? Because they will resurrect the dead.

No. Sleep is the metaphor. It matter how we understand that. You posed a question that asks if I am NOT using sleep as a metaphor, but I AM saying sleep is a metaphor for death. But sleep, as a metaphor by itself, does not answer what happens to us after we die.

I hope to eventually understand what you mean by "after we die". A millisecond after, or a couple years after.
I don't think it matters, unless we get into the topic of who is resurrected.
However, for now, the Bible does answer what happens to us after we die... and it is simple. We sleep... until.
The until is after too, but I have a strong feeling that's not what you are referring to.

"Her spirit RETURNED to her"

What is the scripture please.
You are providing the facts to support the claim that sleep is a metaphor for being away from the body.
Making another claim is not providing facts

Correct. They are both talking about death in different ways. They are not both talking about sleep, which is just one way the Bible talks about death.

I don't see that.
I see Paul referring to his future hope.... in heaven with the Lord.
If you are saying absent from the body means dead - sleeping in death, we can agree, but I don't think that is what you are saying.

I think you are saying that once a person dies, they go somewhere... alive.
Which it seems to me you are saying that as soon as the person dies, they go somewhere.
I yet have to establish where that place is, but you claim you do not know.

He was arguing with the religious leaders, specifically the Sadducees, who do not believe in the resurrection, which is similar in ideology to the idea of soul sleep. Because neither the Sadducees nor you believe in a spiritual, non-physical reality.

Perhaps you did not understand what I asked.

Why did Jesus say that "God is the God of the living"?
Please quote Jesus subsequent words.
I'll quote Jesus' subsequent words.
So he is the God of the living, not the dead, gar: for, because, since they are all alive to him.”

The reason Jesus said, God is the God of the living, is because they are all alive to him.
Jesus therefore sees things from God's perspective.

They are dead, but to Jesus, they simply sleep, because to God, they are alive, since they are in his memorial, and will be raised to life. John 5:28, 29

I am saying sleeping is a metaphor to describe death, but sleep is not the ONLY WAY that the Bible talks about death.

I'm glad we finally agree on that point.
What is the other way the Bible talks about death?

What do you believe happens after we die?

I hope the answer above is clear.

I said you either misunderstood what I was saying or you are a liar, yes. It's also possible that you have no way to categorize what I am saying.

I believe you are goading and making personal attacks on my character, and this is against forum rules.
I won't be goaded into calling you a liar, which I could have done, so I urge you to stop it, or I will report every post wher you have done this.

Once again, I did not, have not, and am not lying.
I answered your loaded question.
...and I am intelligent enough to understand how to answer a question which contains a false conclusion, that someone wants to goad me into supporting that conclusion.

Well, a good start would be for you to exegete 2 Corinthians 5:8.

Then, a good question would be, Please explain 2 Corinthians 5:8. Not please agree that you are interpreting scriptures and giving your version... neither of which have I done.

Do you believe the physical world is all that there is? Is that why you believe that we are "asleep" when we die?

You assumed I was thinking like the disciples. You assumed wrong.
I understand Jesus' words very well, and I can demonstrate that I do, from this post.

Jesus at times spoke spiritual things that flew over the heads of his audience, because it was only for those with spiritual discernment - those to whom it was deserving.​

Two examples are​

Matthew 9:24 He said, “Leave; for the girl has not died, but is asleep.” And they began laughing at Him.​

John 6:54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.​

​

In both these cases, what Jesus said, can be taken as shocking, and persons may even say Jesus lied, when he said the gird did not die.​

However, the spiritual recognizes a spiritual saying.​

Jesus could say the girl is not dead, because of his view being spiritual.​

So, again your question starts with a false presumption, and is loaded, because it's like asking, Why are you beating your wife?
Then you will falsely accuse me of lying when I answer your question appropriately.

So, here is what i will do. I will not answer any of your loaded questions. I will ignore them.
No, I do not believe the physical world is all that there is.

I understand that though the question can seem like a stupid question, it is because you do not know what I believe about sleeping in death, but you made an assumption, based on your misunderstanding.

I need some of @Jo555's spirit. When people repeatedly attack my integrity and intelligence, my blood starts to boil.

 

[CoreyD]

I would relate it to my own experience of what sleep is. And that would be good enough for those present circumstances, and to have faith that he was going to do something about it. But what is your point? Is there nothing more to be learned about what is called 'sleep' for those who have died?

But more, is our experience of 'sleep' all that it means when God uses that word in such a context?

Well, the disciples were still green (Mark 8:17-21), and the Jewish leaders were almost black (John 3:12).
However, we have the complete Bible, and about 90% of the things that the earlier servants of God di not have, so we should do better than that.

I would connect what Jesus said, and remember what others have said.
Lazarus is sleeping. I'm going to awaken him.
But Lord, if he is sleeping, why bother going there. He will get up when he is ready.
Lazarus is dead.
Oh. You mean he is sleeping in death - that is he is gone (to rest) until the time to awaken him, when you call.

Job 14:12-15

12 So man lies down and does not rise. Till the heavens are no more, They will not awake Nor be roused from their sleep.​

13 “Oh, that You would hide me in the grave, That You would conceal me until Your wrath is past, That You would appoint me a set time, and remember me!
14 If a man dies, shall he live again? All the days of my hard service I will wait, Till my change comes.
15 You shall call, and I will answer You; You shall desire the work of Your hands.​

John 11:20-25

20 Then Martha, as soon as she heard that Jesus was coming, went and met Him, but Mary was sitting in the house. 21 Now Martha said to Jesus, “Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died. 22 But even now I know that whatever You ask of God, God will give You.”​

23 Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”​

24 Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”​

25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live.​

Consider paralleling those verses with this: "I am the way, the truth and the life." I mean, if we are going to quote out of context —why not?

I've heard persons say wherever you see truth in the Bible, that is Jesus.
Is that what you are saying here?

 

[Mark Quayle]

Well, the disciples were still green (Mark 8:17-21), and the Jewish leaders were almost black (John 3:12).
However, we have the complete Bible, and about 90% of the things that the earlier servants of God di not have, so we should do better than that.

I would connect what Jesus said, and remember what others have said.
Lazarus is sleeping. I'm going to awaken him.
But Lord, if he is sleeping, why bother going there. He will get up when he is ready.
Lazarus is dead.
Oh. You mean he is sleeping in death - that is he is gone (to rest) until the time to awaken him, when you call.

You appear to me to contradict yourself there. First you say we have (let's call what we have, B) what they did not have, (let's call what they did have, A). You say since we have B, besides A, and B being considerably larger and more reliable ("better") than A; then you say you would do what they did, i.e. assume sleeping in death.

Job 14:12-15
12 So man lies down and does not rise. Till the heavens are no more, They will not awake Nor be roused from their sleep.13 “Oh, that You would hide me in the grave, That You would conceal me until Your wrath is past, That You would appoint me a set time, and remember me!
14 If a man dies, shall he live again? All the days of my hard service I will wait, Till my change comes.
15 You shall call, and I will answer You; You shall desire the work of Your hands.

Would you quote Ecclesiastes also as an authority on post death facts? But, regardless, Job is speaking from the point-of-view of a suffering temporal being wishing for relief —he would rather be dead.

But, Job also says, (one of my favorite passages), and still from the POV of temporal existence.

"I know that my redeemer lives,
and that in the end he will stand on the earth.
And after my skin has been destroyed,
yet in my flesh I will see God;
I myself will see him
with my own eyes—I, and not another.
How my heart yearns within me!"

John 11:20-25
20 Then Martha, as soon as she heard that Jesus was coming, went and met Him, but Mary was sitting in the house. 21 Now Martha said to Jesus, “Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died. 22 But even now I know that whatever You ask of God, God will give You.”23 Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”24 Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live.

CoreyD said:
I just want to be sure.
Are you saying that these statements in the following scriptures, are not quite accurate, or not what they are really conveying as read by us?
John 8:31, 32, John 17:17; John 18:37; 1 Timothy 2:3, 4;

Mark Quayle said:
Consider paralleling those verses with this: "I am the way, the truth and the life." I mean, if we are going to quote out of context —why not?

I've heard persons say wherever you see truth in the Bible, that is Jesus.
Is that what you are saying here?

I suppose you mean, "...wherever you see the word, "truth", in the Bible, it is referring to Jesus"?

I'm saying that John 8:31 and 32; John 17:17; John 18:37; 1Timothy 2:3 and 4, when set alongside "I am the way, the truth and the life.", should give a person pause as to how they use the word "truth" and how they think of it. But admittedly, as I hinted, I used that verse out of context, as you did your verses. There is much that is in scripture called 'true' or 'truth', and none of it is true apart from THE TRUTH, but they are not one and the same thing as Jesus. But there are many layers of pun/plays on words in quite a lot of scripture, so that we will see that what we thought we knew, we only knew a skeleton of it at best.

Those verses, and others, where they reference absolute truth, though, yes, it is Christ himself that is Truth. John 18 could be saying, "everyone who is on [my side] listens to me." in addition to the plain reading. John 17:17 is a quite literal fact, and Jesus is "thy word". John 8:31 is rather obvious, if Jesus is, as he said, "the truth", 1 Timothy 2:4 looks to me like a beautiful double-use of the word, "truth".

So, of course, NO, I'm not saying those verses are inaccurate, though I can guarantee you that none of us can sound the depths of what they are saying, and so fall short of what Christ was saying. Do you know what, "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life" means? No, not quite. Do you know what it applies to? No, not quite.

 

[All Becomes New]

It's not possible to twist, adjust, or interpret that scripture to mean something other than what it says, because, it compares the living with the dead, and shows the differences between the two. One is conscious. The other is not.

I think you have the wrong passage. Please quote what it says rather than the reference.

Was Paul speaking of being in heaven with the Lord?

IDK. We have already been over this.

Jesus, and the Bible says, one sleeps.

Tell me how Jesus can say God can destroy both body AND SOUL in hell?

a synagogue official came and bowed down before Him, and said, “My daughter has just died; but come and lay Your hand on her, and she will live.”
When Jesus came into the official’s house and saw the flute players and the crowd in noisy disorder, He said, “Leave; for the girl has not died, but is asleep.” And they began laughing at Him.
After the crowd had been put outside, Jesus went in and took the girl by the hand, and she got up.

You only use this passage as a talking point. You don't actually know the passage. How do I know that? Because you don't know that when I quote from the same exact passage, you ask me for a reference to the passage as if you have no idea of the full context of the passage.

Did Jesus lie? No. The girl was asleep in death.
That is the state of the dead.

Yes, and it says, "Her spirit RETURNED to her." That is literally in the same passage, friend.

“Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!”

Interesting. What does this mean to you?

We sleep... until.

Sleep is not the only way the Bible speaks of death.

What is the scripture please.

I quoted from the very passage that you are trying to use to demonstrate your point. It's like you don't actually know the passage at all.

I think you are saying that once a person dies, they go somewhere... alive.

Their spirit is alive. Where they go is not up for debate here.

What is the other way the Bible talks about death?

It talks about going to sheol in the OT for starters. It talks about Jesus going to sheol to "preach" to them. Sheol is the place of the dead. So, clearly, there is a place people go after they die. And that ties into Hades as well. How can God throw Hades AND death into the Lake of Fire, if when people die, they are simply gone only to be resurrected later?

 

[CoreyD]

You appear to me to contradict yourself there. First you say we have (let's call what we have, B) what they did not have, (let's call what they did have, A). You say since we have B, besides A, and B being considerably larger and more reliable ("better") than A; then you say you would do what they did, i.e. assume sleeping in death.

You might want to read what I said carefully, because that is not what I said.

Would you quote Ecclesiastes also as an authority on post death facts? But, regardless, Job is speaking from the point-of-view of a suffering temporal being wishing for relief —he would rather be dead.

But, Job also says, (one of my favorite passages), and still from the POV of temporal existence.

"I know that my redeemer lives,
and that in the end he will stand on the earth.
And after my skin has been destroyed,
yet in my flesh I will see God;
I myself will see him
with my own eyes—I, and not another.
How my heart yearns within me!"

I'm not sure what that has to do with the scriptures I quoted.
You seem to be on a different subject.

CoreyD said:
I just want to be sure.
Are you saying that these statements in the following scriptures, are not quite accurate, or not what they are really conveying as read by us?
John 8:31, 32, John 17:17; John 18:37; 1 Timothy 2:3, 4;

Mark Quayle said:
Consider paralleling those verses with this: "I am the way, the truth and the life." I mean, if we are going to quote out of context —why not?

I suppose you mean, "...wherever you see the word, "truth", in the Bible, it is referring to Jesus"?

I'm saying that John 8:31 and 32; John 17:17; John 18:37; 1Timothy 2:3 and 4, when set alongside "I am the way, the truth and the life.", should give a person pause as to how they use the word "truth" and how they think of it. But admittedly, as I hinted, I used that verse out of context, as you did your verses. There is much that is in scripture called 'true' or 'truth', and none of it is true apart from THE TRUTH, but they are not one and the same thing as Jesus. But there are many layers of pun/plays on words in quite a lot of scripture, so that we will see that what we thought we knew, we only knew a skeleton of it at best.

Those verses, and others, where they reference absolute truth, though, yes, it is Christ himself that is Truth. John 18 could be saying, "everyone who is on [my side] listens to me." in addition to the plain reading. John 17:17 is a quite literal fact, and Jesus is "thy word". John 8:31 is rather obvious, if Jesus is, as he said, "the truth", 1 Timothy 2:4 looks to me like a beautiful double-use of the word, "truth".

So, of course, NO, I'm not saying those verses are inaccurate, though I can guarantee you that none of us can sound the depths of what they are saying, and so fall short of what Christ was saying. Do you know what, "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life" means? No, not quite. Do you know what it applies to? No, not quite.

If you believe Jesus said, “You say that I am a king. In fact, the reason I was born and came into the world is to testify to the Jesus. Everyone on the side of Jesus listens to me.”, that is really your choice.
I am not going to argue with you on that, since 1) this is not the subject of the thread, and 2) I'd rather not hear someone tell me that John 1:14 says The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and Jesus.

The subject is soul sleep.

I think you have the wrong passage. Please quote what it says rather than the reference.

I'm sorry. Correction. The passage is Ecclesiastes 9:5. 10

9 For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing, And they have no more reward, For the memory of them is forgotten.​

10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going.​

IDK. We have already been over this.

2 Corinthians 5?
No, we haven't been here before.
Are you saying you do not understand the Bible, and have not yet studied this scripture?

It's not difficult at all. It's right there in the scripture itself.
2 Corinthians 5:1, 6
1 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord.

Paul is referring to the hope of being in heaven with the Lord.
You are right though, we have been through this before and you quoted a scripture which you acknowledged you know nothing about what it is about.

Now, you are acknowledging that 2 Corinthians 5 does not help because you do not know if this scripture is related to 2 Corinthians 5:8.
As I said, you have an opinion about a scripture which you do not know about.

So, that's the end of that.

Tell me how Jesus can say God can destroy both body AND SOUL in hell?

What does the subject of whether or not the soul is destroyed in hell, or how, have to do with whether or not the scriptures say the soul sleeps?
That is not the subject of this thread.

You only use this passage as a talking point. You don't actually know the passage. How do I know that? Because you don't know that when I quote from the same exact passage, you ask me for a reference to the passage as if you have no idea of the full context of the passage.

Strawman. Moving on.

Yes, and it says, "Her spirit RETURNED to her." That is literally in the same passage, friend.

What are we talking about... Resurrection?
I thought we were talking about soul sleep.
Am I mistaken?

What exactly is your point?

Interesting. What does this mean to you?

Could we stick to the subject at hand?
So far we agree that sleep is used as the equivalent of death, and at death, that is the state one is in, until they are awoken - That is, they are dead, until resurrected.

If we can establish that we can discuss, 1) that the spirit is not resurrected as you were claiming earlier, 2) that to be raised to life one needs spirit, as the body without spirit is dead, 3) that once the person - the soul is resurrected, they need a body, 4) what body they are given... etc.

It makes no sense getting into other things when one person is not acknowledging what the truth is on the subject at hand.

Sleep is not the only way the Bible speaks of death.

I quoted from the very passage that you are trying to use to demonstrate your point. It's like you don't actually know the passage at all.

You quoted a passage that has nothing to do with sleep, and one you said you cannot explain, so we have moved on from that.

Their spirit is alive. Where they go is not up for debate here.

No scripture says the spirit given man is alive. None. Zero.
For then the dust will return to the earth, and the spirit will return to God who gave it. Ecclesiastes 12:7

If you know of one, please quote it, or reference the Chapter and verse, please.

It talks about going to sheol in the OT for starters. It talks about Jesus going to sheol to "preach" to them. Sheol is the place of the dead.

This thread does not debate the subject of Sheol, or the spirits that Jesus preached to.
Those are different subjects entirely, and are being discussed in other threads.

So, clearly, there is a place people go after they die. And that ties into Hades as well. How can God throw Hades AND death into the Lake of Fire, if when people die, they are simply gone only to be resurrected later?

Are you claiming that the little girl, Lazarus, Stephen and the Saints were not dead, but alive somewhere?
I am not asking you to tell me where, since you don't know.
I am asking you to tell me if you are saying that these persons were not dead, but were living in a place which you do not know.

Do you agree that the Bible answers the question of what happens at/after death, and that it says the person sleeps until a resurrection?

Both these questions require a simple yes or no answer. They are not complicated.
Thank you.

 

[eleos1954]

Soul sleep. Are you for, or against it?
Which side is Jesus for, and does the Bible support soul sleep?

Matthew 9:18-25
While He was saying these things to them, a synagogue official came and bowed down before Him, and said, “My daughter has just died; but come and lay Your hand on her, and she will live.”
So Jesus got up and went with him, along with His disciples.

When Jesus came into the official’s house and saw the flute players and the crowd in noisy disorder, He said, “Leave; for the girl has not died, but is asleep.” And they began laughing at Him.
After the crowd had been put outside, Jesus went in and took the girl by the hand, and she got up.

John 11:11-14
This He said, and after that He said to them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I go, that I may awaken him out of sleep.”
The disciples then said to Him, “Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover.”
However, Jesus spoke of his death, but they thought that He was speaking about taking rest in sleep.
So Jesus told them plainly, “Lazarus is dead,"

1 Thessalonians 4:13-16
But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve, as do the rest who have no hope.
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose from the dead, so also God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep through Jesus.
For we say this to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

Acts 7:58-60
When they had driven him out of the city, they began stoning him; and the witnesses laid aside their cloaks at the feet of a young man named Saul.
They went on stoning Stephen as he called on the Lord and said, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!”
Then he fell on his knees and cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them!” Having said this, he fell asleep.

Jesus said that the person - soul (nephesh), (psuché) - that has died, is asleep - sleeping, in death.
Various other scriptures in the Bible refer to the the state of the person whom have died, as being asleep - sleeping in death.

I think we can put this one to rest.

Jesus (who is God) has the power of resurrection so it makes perfect sense that "earthly death" is considered a sleep from God's/Jesus' perspective. We are mortal (subject to death) and do not become immortal until Jesus returns and we are given eternal life. The bible is very clear about this.

 

[RDKirk]

A sort of parallel, to show that "sleep" is only a concept we use to describe our experience of it: The anesthesiologist put me out, and when I woke up, I felt no time had passed, although I was not puzzled, but only curious. I didn't sleep —I was OUT!

One time, the anesthesiologist turned the valve on the IV and caught me in mid-sentence. I actually finished the sentence when I woke up in the recovery room. I looked around and said, "What the heck. That was rude!"

 

[CoreyD]

Jesus (who is God) has the power of resurrection so it makes perfect sense that "earthly death" is considered a sleep from God's/Jesus' perspective. We are mortal (subject to death) and do not become immortal until Jesus returns and we are given eternal life. The bible is very clear about this.

Interestingly, many do not see how clear it is, and when shown, they would rather not acknowledge it.
So many scriptures are clear on the state of the dead (Psalm 6:5; Psalm 30:9; Psalm 88:11; Psalm 115:17; Psalm 146:4)

The idea that the dead are conscious, and lives on after death, is the first lie of Satan Genesis 3:4, and, since persons want to believe it, Jesus let's them have it. 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12.

So, the dead really do not die, according to Satan, but live on somewhere else... either as a living spirit, or living soul.

Thanks for pointing out that death "is considered a sleep from God's/Jesus' perspective.", which evidently hasn't resonated in the minds of some.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Interestingly, many do not see how clear it is, and when shown, they would rather not acknowledge it.
So many scriptures are clear on the state of the dead (Psalm 6:5; Psalm 30:9; Psalm 88:11; Psalm 115:17; Psalm 146:4)

The idea that the dead are conscious, and lives on after death, is the first lie of Satan Genesis 3:4, and, since persons want to believe it, Jesus let's them have it. 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12.

So, the dead really do not die, according to Satan, but live on somewhere else... either as a living spirit, or living soul.

Thanks for pointing out that death "is considered a sleep from God's/Jesus' perspective.", which evidently hasn't resonated in the minds of some.

'Some' apparently don't realize that God speaks according to our ability to understand, both blinding 'some' and opening the eyes of others. The point of "sleep" in this context isn't that these dead need wait for resurrection, but that WE must wait, not seeing it as yet.

"Already" we are fully IN CHRIST, but we don't see it as yet.

"Already" the creation is put under subjection to Christ, but we don't see it as yet.

 

[CoreyD]

'Some' apparently don't realize that God speaks according to our ability to understand, both blinding 'some' and opening the eyes of others. The point of "sleep" in this context isn't that these dead need wait for resurrection, but that WE must wait, not seeing it as yet.

"Already" we are fully IN CHRIST, but we don't see it as yet.

"Already" the creation is put under subjection to Christ, but we don't see it as yet.

It's the dead that sleep. Not WE.
Jesus did not say WE sleep. he said, Lazarus was sleeping. The little girl was asleep.

The Bible refers to the Saints that sleep in death, and Paul said...
But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

At Job 14:13-15, we read the words of Job.
13 If only You would hide me in Sheol and conceal me until Your anger has passed! If only You would appoint a time for me [NOT WE] and then remember me!
14 When a man dies, will he live again? All the days of my hard service I will wait, [NOT WE] until my renewal chaliphah: Change, exchange, relief, renewal comes.
15 You will call, and I will answer; You will desire the work of Your hands.

Since we are not talking about resurrection, this is not about us waiting to see dead ones resurrected.
This is about dead ones sleeping until they are awaken.

It doesn't require much straw to make a strawman, but evidently it is taking a lot to acknowledge the simple fact that the dead one are sleeping, as they are inactive, unconscious, and silent, in the grave, in which we are told "Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming in which all those in the tombs [mnémeion - Derived from μνῆμα (mnēma), which means "a memorial" or "a remembrance."] will hear His voice," John 5:28

Who will hear Jesus' voice?
It is the dead ones - the ones that sleep, who are told to wait.
Daniel 12:2, 13
2 And many who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake, some to everlasting life, but others to shame and everlasting contempt.
13 But as for you, go on your way until the end. You will rest, and will arise to your inheritance at the end of the days.”

Who answers the call of Jesus voice?
It is the dead ones - the ones sleeping, and waiting for their renewal.
This is a basic Bible truth which is being ignored, and resisted. Amazing... but not surprising, since we are told this will happen to those wanting to believe the lie.

2 Thessalonians 2:11, 12
11 For this reason God will send them a powerful delusion [πλάνη plané: Deception, error, delusion, wandering] so that they believe the lie, 12 in order that judgment may come upon all who have disbelieved the truth and delighted in wickedness.

 

[Simonides]

..

 

[CoreyD]

Powerful delusion indeed.
View attachment 358007

Do we have a real photo of the entire Planet Earth? Is NASA concerned of its shape?

This is not a topic I'm particularly interested in, yet it is still very strange, and telling. I think everything is tied in together. There could be some common denominator connecting all the bizarre events, and objects mentioned on this website with our space exploration controversy. At some...

www.stolenhistory.org

This is entirely off topic.
There is no relation between NASA's images and soul sleep.
We aren't discussing delusion either. If you can avoid derailing this thread, I would appreciate it. Thanks.

A post of that sort belongs in a sub-forum like Non-Mainstream and Controversial Science - A subforum for the discussion and debate of non mainstream science topics.

 

[Simonides]

God will send them a powerful delusion [πλάνη plané: Deception, error, delusion, wandering] so that they believe the lie, 12 in order that judgment may come upon all who have disbelieved the truth and delighted in wickedness.

You talk so much you can't even remember what you said.