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Wife getting massages

Paidiske

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Personal priorities aren't relationship boundaries.
Well, they often are. Or to put it slightly differently, enacting personal priorities creates relationship boundaries.
I know that's sort of a difficult abstract question
It's irrelevant. The distinction we are trying to discuss here is the difference between boundaries (how I manage my wellbeing) and control (the attempt to manage someone else's behaviour).
 
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Ana the Ist

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Well, they often are. Or to put it slightly differently, enacting personal priorities creates relationship boundaries.

The fact that you're referring to personal priorities and relationship boundaries as different things is enough to make my point.


It's irrelevant.

It's not.

Don't you agree that in any long term relationship....especially marriage....you have an obligation to consider your actions, words, attitude, and how those things affect your spouse, regardless of whether you're a husband or wife?
 
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Paidiske

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The fact that you're referring to personal priorities and relationship boundaries as different things is enough to make my point.
It certainly doesn't establish that "boundaries" are about controlling someone else.
Don't you agree that in any long term relationship....especially marriage....you have an obligation to consider your actions, words, attitude, and how those things affect your spouse, regardless of whether you're a husband or wife?
Sure. That's also no justification for controlling attitudes or behaviours.
 
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Ana the Ist

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It certainly doesn't establish that "boundaries" are about controlling someone else.

Sure it does....

I ask you for a boundary that isn't related to your spouse's behavior and you gave me a personal priority.


Sure. That's also no justification for controlling attitudes or behaviours.

Not sure what exactly you mean by this....

We should consider how our behavior affects our spouse but it isn't something that should change our behavior?
 
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Paidiske

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Sure it does....

I ask you for a boundary that isn't related to your spouse's behavior and you gave me a personal priority.
Yes. Because boundaries are about managing our own needs and wellbeing.
We should consider how our behavior affects our spouse but it isn't something that should change our behavior?
We are free to choose how we respond to our spouse. Neither party to a marriage has the right to control the other.
 
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o_mlly

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I disagree. "Therapeutic" is not just about intent ...
One cannot intend what is not an end-in-view of the objectively defined act. The physicality of the act objectively described may have subjectively multiple ends-in-view. You would limit those ends-in-view subjectively to be but one.
Similarly, a professional conducts him or herself objectively differently from someone playing at massage to get their jollies.
No, the person performing the massage, whether displaying on the wall some diploma or not, remains a fallen human being.
 
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Paidiske

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One cannot intend what is not an end-in-view of the objectively defined act. The physicality of the act objectively described may have subjectively multiple ends-in-view. You would limit those ends-in-view subjectively to be but one.
That is not my point in describing the massage as therapeutic. I am making an objective description of the style of massage being done.
No, the person performing the massage, whether displaying on the wall some diploma or not, remains a fallen human being.
Sure. But that does not mean that they are necessarily conducting themselves unprofessionally in any given instance.
And do you agree that the OP is free to dismiss the unsubstantiated opinions of other posters?
Sure.
 
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o_mlly

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Sure. But that does not mean that they are necessarily conducting themselves unprofessionally in any given instance.
Nor does that diploma guarantee that the masseur will always act professionally.

Sexual Abuse in the Massage Therapy Setting Is Among the Most Traumatic and Underreported of All Forms of Sexual Assault

 
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Paidiske

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Nor does that diploma guarantee that the masseur will always act professionally.
No, it doesn't. But the professional training and qualification of the therapist is one of the objective facts of the situation which qualifies how one might interpret the client's state of undress and so on. This is not just a random couple in a room with someone nearly naked.
 
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o_mlly

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No, it doesn't. But the professional training and qualification of the therapist is one of the objective facts of the situation which qualifies how one might interpret the client's state of undress and so on.
But that subjective (in the mind of an observer only) interpretation is merely one of two, or more, that might also be an interpretation. And because other interpretations exist, the notion that the masseur is professional serves only to detract from the objectivity of the physical act as described.
 
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Ana the Ist

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Yes. Because boundaries are about managing our own needs and wellbeing.

Wow....what do you do when you break a boundary with yourself?


We are free to choose how we respond to our spouse. Neither party to a marriage has the right to control the other.

Why bother even considering how your behavior affects them then?
 
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J-316

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Licensed therapists follow strict protocols, and her comfort and health are the priorities in these sessions. If she wanted to do something other than relax, she wouldn’t need a massage appointment to do it. So, unless there's real evidence of concern, it's best to trust your wife and not read too much into a perfectly normal, professional practice.
 
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o_mlly

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Licensed therapists follow strict protocols ...
Ethics: Preventing Sexual Misconduct in Massage Therapy
ABMP Video Course: 1 CE Hour Ethics


In states like New York and Florida, physical therapy boards and associations classify 1 CE hour as 50 minutes of instruction. Fifty minutes doesn't seem nearly enough time in an online webinar course to teach strict protocols. I could be wrong.
 
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Paidiske

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But that subjective (in the mind of an observer only) interpretation
No, I disagree. It's not just subjective. There are objective differences between a professional therapeutic massage, and other kinds of massage.
Why bother even considering how your behavior affects them then?
Can you really not conceive of loving relationships without controlling dynamics?
 
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Ana the Ist

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Can you really not conceive of loving relationships without controlling dynamics?

Since you answered my question with a question....

Wouldn't you question the love of someone who always prioritizes themselves over you?
 
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Paidiske

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Wouldn't you question the love of someone who always prioritizes themselves over you?
But that's not the necessary outcome of renouncing controlling dynamics. One can freely choose to prioritise the other; great.

I am only arguing against coercion and control.
 
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Ana the Ist

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J-316

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Perhaps these aren't massage appointments.

What would you consider real evidence of concern?

OP has provided no evidence to the contrary. Real evidence of concern would be indications, such as admission or physical proof, that his wife engaged in something more than just a professional massage.
 
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