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Wife getting massages

o_mlly

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We are in a position to encourage him to interrogate his emotional response, though, and reflect on whether or not it is rational.
The OP has allowed that he has "interrogated" his emotion and found it reasonable and now asks others to comment.
This has me upset ... I don't like the idea of another man running his hands all over her feet, legs, thighs, shoulders etc. in private using massage oils. Thoughts?
Given Original Sin, I think his feeling is rationally validated.
 
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Paidiske

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Given Original Sin, I think his feeling is rationally validated.
And many of us don't. So if he was looking for confirmation from a bunch of randoms on the internet, he's getting a mixed bag, at best.
 
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o_mlly

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And many of us don't. So if he was looking for confirmation from a bunch of randoms on the internet, he's getting a mixed bag, at best.
Hardly "a bunch of randoms on the internet". We are in the Christian Forums boards in the Ethics and Morality forum.

Again, who are they (in an assumed superior position) to instruct him that because they judge his rationally valid feeling is disordered that he is obliged to dismiss it? They can only offer an opinion with an argument, and he is free to dismiss it.

Do you have a Christian based argument to offer that demonstrates his feeling is disordered?
 
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Paidiske

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Hardly "a bunch of randoms on the internet".
Hardly anything more authoritative.
Do you have a Christian based argument to offer that demonstrates his feeling is disordered?
He is upset about a situation in which he even acknowledges no one is doing any wrong, and he does not believe it will lead to them doing any wrong. A situation which is a normal part of life for many people, with no issue. So I would put the question back the other way; what makes his discomfort a healthy response to the situation?
 
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2PhiloVoid

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If it was me, I'd be ticked off that my husband is so insecure that he feels the need to chaperone me.

... yes, I can readily see by reading your threads that you'd be ticked, Kylie. ;)
 
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o_mlly

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So I would put the question back the other way; what makes his discomfort a healthy response to the situation?
Let us dismiss for now the intentions of the actors. Is not the situation objectively one of an occasion for sin? Objective situation: opposite sexes, private room, nearly naked woman, man rubbing her body sensually for 50 minutes?
 
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comana

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Let us dismiss for now the intentions of the actors. Is not the situation objectively one of an occasion for sin? Objective situation: opposite sexes, private room, nearly naked woman, man rubbing her body sensually for 50 minutes?
I think problem here is assuming this is at all sensual. A therapeutic massage is not sensual and often painful to release the muscle tissue. Those who are imaging this into a sexual situation are the ones in the wrong, not this man’s wife.
 
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o_mlly

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I think problem here is assuming this is at all sensual. A therapeutic massage is not sensual ...
Of course, all massages are sensual. Sensual only in the sense that the physical touching relieves pain or produces pleasure. Not meant to imply sexual gratification.
 
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Bradskii

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Of course, all massages are sensual.
Then it's something of a redundant term. We get what you were implying. Man sensually rubbing nearly naked woman in a private room? Know what I mean, squire? Nudge nudge!

It's not relevant to the situation.

And I think it was Eric Idle played the part in the sketch if anyone is interested.
 
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Paidiske

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Let us dismiss for now the intentions of the actors. Is not the situation objectively one of an occasion for sin? Objective situation: opposite sexes, private room, nearly naked woman, man rubbing her body sensually for 50 minutes?
That's leaving out some of the objective facts. Such as; therapeutic massage, professionalism of the therapist, and so on. (And I agree that describing this as "sensual" is not objective but subjective and quite possibly mistaken).

Objectively an occasion for sin? I'd say no.
 
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Ana the Ist

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You might be; I'm not. This is too important a point for me to let it go.

Oops...you missed part of my post.

I said this....
Name a boundary for you in your marriage with your husband that has absolutely nothing to do with his behavior....

Can you do that?

See....you keep insisting this has nothing to do with controlling behaviour, and it does.

Otherwise, you would have easily answered the question. You can't, because every single boundary issue you have with your husband relates to his behaviour.

Every. Last. One.
 
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Paidiske

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See....you keep insisting this has nothing to do with controlling behaviour, and it does.
No. There is a difference between managing my own wellbeing, and controlling someone else's behaviour. That's a pretty fundamental distinction.
 
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Ana the Ist

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No. There is a difference between managing my own wellbeing, and controlling someone else's behaviour. That's a pretty fundamental distinction.

Then answer the question.

We all saw it....we all saw you ducking and dodging.....twice now.

Do those experts have a phone number? I'll call em up and explain it to them.
 
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Paidiske

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Then answer the question.
Your question makes no sense to me. I don't describe anyone else's behaviours in terms of "boundaries." My boundaries are about how I manage my time, my availability, my space, my behaviour. How I say yes or no to what is presented to me, to manage my own wellbeing.

It's got nothing to do with controlling anyone else, which is a completely separate issue.

To put it simply: boundaries are about what I will or will not do, not what limits I attempt to set on what someone else can or cannot do.
 
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o_mlly

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That's leaving out some of the objective facts. Such as; therapeutic massage, professionalism of the therapist, and so on. (And I agree that describing this as "sensual" is not objective but subjective and quite possibly mistaken)
Inserting the adjective "therapeutic" to the objective act of "massage" injects a subjective end-in-view. Coloring the masseur as a "professional" does the same and detracts from the objective physicality of the act.

Sensual def: may apply to any gratification of a bodily desire or pleasure. I desire to listen and get sensual pleasure listening to Bach. Nothing erotic about that pleasure.
Objectively an occasion for sin? I'd say no.
Fair enough. But would you impose your opinion onto the OP? He appears to differ and rationally so.
 
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Ana the Ist

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Your question makes no sense to me.

Ok....I'll break it down. In your example, you stated....and I'm paraphrasing....

If my husband yells at me, I'd leave the room until he stops.

This part (If my husband yells at me) describes a behavior of your husband.

This part (I'd leave the room until he stops) describes the attempt to control that behavior because it's a boundary. You'd withdraw from the relationship temporarily until he stops....as you already agreed...if he didn't stop, you'd withdraw entirely.





To put it simply: boundaries are about what I will or will not do, not what limits I attempt to set on what someone else can or cannot do.

That's just a self serving frame on the exact same painting.

If you're so sure, so certain that boundaries have nothing to do with your spouse's behavior then give an example of a boundary that doesn't involve your spouse's behavior.

Just go ahead and give me one that in no way involves something your husband does with you, by himself, or with someone else.
 
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Paidiske

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Inserting the adjective "therapeutic" to the objective act of "massage" injects a subjective end-in-view. Coloring the masseur as a "professional" does the same and detracts from the objective physicality of the act.
I disagree. "Therapeutic" is not just about intent, it is about what is objectively happening. A therapeutic massage is a very different experience, objectively, from an erotic massage with a "happy ending." Similarly, a professional conducts him or herself objectively differently from someone playing at massage to get their jollies.
Fair enough. But would you impose your opinion onto the OP?
The OP asked for our thoughts.
This part (I'd leave the room until he stops) describes the attempt to control that behavior because it's a boundary.
No. It is not about controlling his behaviour. It is simply about positioning myself in relation to his behaviour. That's the key difference.
That's just a self serving frame on the exact same painting.
Not at all. Again, it's a very fundamental difference.
If you're so sure, so certain that boundaries have nothing to do with your spouse's behavior then give an example of a boundary that doesn't involve your spouse's behavior.

Just go ahead and give me one that in no way involves something your husband does with you, by himself, or with someone else.
One thing I've had to be quite intentional about, for example, is going to bed at the time I need to get the amount of sleep I need. If I stayed up as late as he does routinely, I'd be (more) tired all the time. So I go to bed when I need, irrespective of what he's doing.
 
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Ana the Ist

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No. It is not about controlling his behaviour.

Again, if this were true....you'd be able to answer the question.

Do you understand the question?


One thing I've had to be quite intentional about, for example, is going to bed at the time I need to get the amount of sleep I need.

In what way is this an boundary and not merely a personal habit?

Wouldn't you do the exact same thing if you weren't in a relationship?
 
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Paidiske

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In what way is this an boundary and not merely a personal habit?
I am setting boundaries on the use of my time, and my availability to others. And that's the point. Boundaries are ultimately about self-management; not controlling others.
 
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Ana the Ist

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I am setting boundaries on the use of my time, and my availability to others.

Personal priorities aren't relationship boundaries. You aren't in a relationship with yourself.

Let's try this differently....

Let's imagine you had a friend or colleague that constantly complained about her marriage. The problems, no matter what they are, are always her husband's fault, and she always presents herself and her reaction in the best light. At no point does she ever describe herself as being at fault for anything, nor doing anything wrong, nor does she ever mention how any of her behaviour ever affects her husband. In fact, apart from being the constant source of misery in her marriage....all you know about him is the fact that he works a job, and he provides for the family/marriage which is why she explains she cannot leave.

Would you be more likely to think....

1. She's in an awful marriage with an awful man who is clearly abusive, toxic, problematic or otherwise genuinely the source of all her problems and she should be planning on how to leave this situation or possibly set some real boundaries about his behavior?

2. That she's a completely self absorbed, delusionally narcissistic, or possibly simply far too immature to be in a marriage and potentially the source of her problems lies in a complete disregard of how her husband feels, his needs, his concerns, and the way the her behavior, her actions, and her attitude might be affecting him?

I know that's sort of a difficult abstract question but do try and answer. Maybe you would try to find out some of these things about her husband....but she quickly obfuscates and returns to talking about herself as if she's always in the right, always the victim.
 
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