Shouldn't all Evangelicals want Christian Nationalism?

[zippy2006]

the preaching of the gospel was thwarted by "Christian" institutions and governments

So are you opposed to Christian Nationalism or to "Christian" Nationalism? I think all Christians are opposed to "Christian" Nationalism, and yet that seems to be the basic claim of the naysayers.

This is a thread about Christian Nationalism, not "Christian" Nationalism.

 

[Fervent]

So are you opposed to Christian Nationalism or to "Christian" Nationalism? I think all Christians are opposed to "Christian" Nationalism, and yet that seems to be the basic claim of the naysayers.

This is a thread about Christian Nationalism, not "Christian" Nationalism.

I believe the two terms are contradictory, because they require split loyalties. We are either exiles and sojourners, or loyal to an earthly government. We cannot serve two masters.

 

[zippy2006]

I believe the two terms are contradictory, because they require split loyalties. We are either exiles and sojourners, or loyal to an earthly government. We cannot serve two masters.

So you define Christian Nationalism as loyalty to State over God? That looks like a straightforward strawman, given that no one arguing for Christian Nationalism holds to such a thing.

I haven't seen much in the way of substantial argument from the naysayers.

 

[Fervent]

So you define Christian Nationalism as loyalty to State over God? That looks like a straightforward strawman, given that no one arguing for Christian Nationalism holds to such a thing.

I haven't seen much in the way of substantial argument from the naysayers.

What does nationalism add to the description, if not to imply loyalty to a nation state? Either it is a matter of split loyalties, or there is no substantial addition by slapping the word "nationalism" into the mix. So what is supposed to be added by appending Christian with nationalist?

 

[zippy2006]

What does nationalism add to the description

It circumscribes the adjective "Christian" to a specific nation. It doesn't mean that all Christians have some association to this nation, but rather that this nation has some association with Christianity.

To say that "Christian Nationalism" must automatically be an idolatrous loyalty to State over God is a strawman.

 

[Fervent]

It circumscribes the adjective "Christian" to a specific nation. To say that "Christian Nationalism" must automatically be an idolatrous loyalty to State over God is a strawman.

That's kind of the point of the debate, as there is either such a thing as a Christian nation as an earthly power that deserves our loyalty or the circumscription is simply a way of baptizing a political philosophy and the interests of a specific nation. Is Christ's kingdom found in any nation on Earth at the moment or in the past 2000 years?

 

[zippy2006]

Liberals think the choice is between Neutral Nationalism and Christian Nationalism. It's not. The choice is between, say, Liberal Nationalism and Christian Nationalism. There is no such thing as Neutral Nationalism, and modern nations are already strongly influenced by Christianity. That is where things such as universal human rights and the welfare state come from.

 

[zippy2006]

Is Christ's kingdom found in any nation on Earth at the moment or in the past 2000 years?

Is Christ's kingdom found in any church on Earth at the moment or in the past 2000 years? And do you oppose Christian churches?

 

[Fervent]

Is Christ's kingdom found in any church on Earth at the moment or in the past 2000 years?

No

And do you oppose Christian churches?

Define "oppose"

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

I believe the two terms are contradictory, because they require split loyalties. We are either exiles and sojourners, or loyal to an earthly government. We cannot serve two masters.

Are all loyalties mutually exclusive?

 

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

Can you quote to me a scripture which says we are to love our friends equally to our enemies? We as humans are limited, our love, unlike God's, is not infinite and the attempt to Love one's enemy as much as you love one's friend will end up in disaster. Our first duty is to those whom we love first and foremost, brothers and sisters in Christ, Family and friends. We seek their interests first before our enemies and this is entirely natural especially when the interest of our enemies goes against the interests of our friends.

The command to love one's enemy is not a command to love them utterly, because then we would seek their interests above our own and they are our enemies because our interests contradict. We are called to be merciful to our enemies, to not treat them with disdain like other rulers have and this is what makes the command to love your enemies so hard.

Can you show me where scripture says says I am treat my enemy like I treat my friends?

Suggesting that Christians should love their friends more than their enemies is unbiblical, as even sinners do that.

Luke 6:32-36

“If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them. 33 And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do that. 34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, expecting to be repaid in full. 35 But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. 36 Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.



The Parable of the Good Samaritan (Luke 10:25-37) illustrates how to love thy neighbor. In 4 BC, when Jesus was on earth, Samaritans were adversaries of Israel. Yet, Jesus used the "Good Samaritan" to show that an enemy showed more compassion to a poor Jew than the Pharisees did.

If you treat your friend better than your enemy, you may be a good friend but not necessarily a good Christian. The Golden Rule, "treat others as you want to be treated" (Matthew 7:12 - "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets"), is a fundamental principle that should guide our interactions with all individuals.

 

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

My point isn't that Jesus commands us to establish a Christian Nation, only that it is permissible for Christians to do so and at times it has been incredibly beneficial to be in a Christian nation for the faithful. I have not once advocated in this thread that there is an absolute need to dominate all politics, rather I have approached politics as a reality that Christians can participate in and that can take the form of Christian Nationalism, Christian Monarchy or Theocracy, or any other form of government we may wish to care about.

When I see people like yourself Faith appeal to the example of Jesus, I am of course not opposed to our Lord and his life. But our Lord's calling was unique, not everyone can live like Christ or else human society would cease to function. Some are called to be political leaders and the implication of many here is that no Christian is called to political leadership because Christ never took a crown. This of course forgets that Christ embodies not only the Prophet and the Priest but also the King and Christ can be a model for Kingship which should be different from that of the worldly King who seeks only accolades or glory, the chief responsibility of the Christian King or leader being service.

This chapter from the Book of First Samuel reflects God's view on a Christian nation.



1 Samuel 8



When Samuel was old, he made his sons judges over Israel. 2 The name of his firstborn son was Joel; the name of his second son was Abijah. They were judges in Beersheba. 3 The sons didn’t follow their father’s example but turned to dishonest ways of making money. They took bribes and denied people justice.

4 Then all the leaders of Israel gathered together and came to Samuel at Ramah. 5 They told him, “You’re old, and your sons aren’t following your example. Now appoint a king to judge us so that we will be like all the other nations.”

6 But Samuel considered it wrong for them to request a king to judge them. So Samuel prayed to the Lord. 7 The Lord told Samuel, “Listen to everything the people are saying to you. They haven’t rejected you; they’ve rejected me. 8 They’re doing just what they’ve done since I took them out of Egypt—leaving me and serving other gods. 9 Listen to them now, but be sure to warn them and tell them about the rights of a king.”

10 Then Samuel told the people who had asked him for a king everything the Lord had said. 11 Samuel said, “These are the rights of a king:

He will draft your sons, make them serve on his chariots and horses, and make them run ahead of his chariots.

12 He will appoint them to be his officers over 1,000 or over 50 soldiers, to plow his ground and harvest his crops, and to make weapons and equipment for his chariots.

13 He will take your daughters and have them make perfumes, cook, and bake.

14 He will take the best of your fields, vineyards, and olive orchards and give them to his officials.

15 He will take a tenth of your grain and wine and give it to his aids and officials.

16 He will take your male and female slaves, your best cattle,[a] and your donkeys for his own use.

17 He will take a tenth of your flocks.

In addition, you will be his servants.

18 “When that day comes, you will cry out because of the king whom you have chosen for yourselves. The Lord will not answer you when that day comes.”

19 But the people refused to listen to Samuel. They said, “No, we want a king! 20 Then we, too, will be like all the other nations. Our king will judge us, lead us out ⌞to war⌟, and fight our battles.”

21 When Samuel heard everything the people had to say, he reported it privately to the Lord. 22 The Lord told him, “Listen to them, and give them a king.”

Then Samuel told the people of Israel, “Go ⌞back⌟ to your own cities.”

 

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

Is Christ's kingdom found in any church on Earth at the moment or in the past 2000 years? And do you oppose Christian churches?

BINGO.

The Church represents the "Kingdom of God" on earth. We do not require a Christian government to represent Christians, protect Christian rights, or preach the Gospel. The Church and the Holy Spirit are present to fulfill these roles.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

This chapter from the Book of First Samuel reflects God's view on a Christian nation.



1 Samuel 8



When Samuel was old, he made his sons judges over Israel. 2 The name of his firstborn son was Joel; the name of his second son was Abijah. They were judges in Beersheba. 3 The sons didn’t follow their father’s example but turned to dishonest ways of making money. They took bribes and denied people justice.

4 Then all the leaders of Israel gathered together and came to Samuel at Ramah. 5 They told him, “You’re old, and your sons aren’t following your example. Now appoint a king to judge us so that we will be like all the other nations.”

6 But Samuel considered it wrong for them to request a king to judge them. So Samuel prayed to the Lord. 7 The Lord told Samuel, “Listen to everything the people are saying to you. They haven’t rejected you; they’ve rejected me. 8 They’re doing just what they’ve done since I took them out of Egypt—leaving me and serving other gods. 9 Listen to them now, but be sure to warn them and tell them about the rights of a king.”

10 Then Samuel told the people who had asked him for a king everything the Lord had said. 11 Samuel said, “These are the rights of a king:

He will draft your sons, make them serve on his chariots and horses, and make them run ahead of his chariots.

12 He will appoint them to be his officers over 1,000 or over 50 soldiers, to plow his ground and harvest his crops, and to make weapons and equipment for his chariots.

13 He will take your daughters and have them make perfumes, cook, and bake.

14 He will take the best of your fields, vineyards, and olive orchards and give them to his officials.

15 He will take a tenth of your grain and wine and give it to his aids and officials.

16 He will take your male and female slaves, your best cattle,[a] and your donkeys for his own use.

17 He will take a tenth of your flocks.

In addition, you will be his servants.

18 “When that day comes, you will cry out because of the king whom you have chosen for yourselves. The Lord will not answer you when that day comes.”

19 But the people refused to listen to Samuel. They said, “No, we want a king! 20 Then we, too, will be like all the other nations. Our king will judge us, lead us out ⌞to war⌟, and fight our battles.”

21 When Samuel heard everything the people had to say, he reported it privately to the Lord. 22 The Lord told him, “Listen to them, and give them a king.”

Then Samuel told the people of Israel, “Go ⌞back⌟ to your own cities.”

So you'd prefer a theocratic state run by prophets vs a monarchy?

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Suggesting that Christians should love their friends more than their enemies is unbiblical, as even sinners do that.

Luke 6:32-36

“If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them. 33 And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do that. 34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, expecting to be repaid in full. 35 But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. 36 Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.



The Parable of the Good Samaritan (Luke 10:25-37) illustrates how to love thy neighbor. In 4 BC, when Jesus was on earth, Samaritans were adversaries of Israel. Yet, Jesus used the "Good Samaritan" to show that an enemy showed more compassion to a poor Jew than the Pharisees did.

If you treat your friend better than your enemy, you may be a good friend but not necessarily a good Christian. The Golden Rule, "treat others as you want to be treated" (Matthew 7:12 - "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets"), is a fundamental principle that should guide our interactions with all individuals.

Let's suppose by helping an enemy we harm those closest to us. Should we help said enemy even if it means the destruction of friends and loved ones?

 

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

Let's suppose by helping an enemy we harm those closest to us. Should we help said enemy even if it means the destruction of friends and loved ones?

YES!

This is precisely the meaning behind Jesus' teaching, “love your enemy and pray for them”.

 

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

So you'd prefer a theocratic state run by prophets vs a monarchy?

I prefer any other government over those who use religion to control people. Your idea of a Christian nation is merely about using religion to dominate the masses.

I prefer a fully secular government over one that uses false teachings of Jesus to control people.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

I prefer any other government over those who use religion to control people.

So you dislike the government God instituted in the Old Testament? Can you tell me why?

Your idea of a Christian nation is merely about using religion to dominate the masses.

Well no, I've clearly said it's about instituting proper law and order and countering the excesses of liberal modernity.

I prefer a fully secular government over one that uses false teachings of Jesus to control people.

So you prefer modern western governments and everything they defend?

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

YES!

This is precisely the meaning behind Jesus' teaching, “love your enemy and pray for them”.

So you would be willing to see those closest to you destroyed in order to help an enemy in order to demonstrate your love to them? We are at fundamental odds here.

 

[Fervent]

Are all loyalties mutually exclusive?

In issues of authority, yes.