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Mary was a good person and had a sinful nature like all of us.

NotUrAvgGuy

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Peace be with you, and I get the impression that you wish to serve God rather than men. Is this true? I ask because I once believed, as you do, that the Catholic Church is unbiblical and made up of man’s tradition. I would search out scholars that agree with me to make myself feel better.
. I rejoiced in 2002 when the sexual abuse scandal broke because I thought finally we can all see how fake it is and give up the charade. I thought biblical truth would triumph over man’s tradition. How could it be God’s Church when it is full of scoundrels and evil men?

I can give you more specific details if you wish, but I can say that God was not done with me. I was constantly challenged, in my own mind not by a specific person. I did not want the Catholic Church to be true

The first doctrine was purgatory. I said God that is not biblical. We are cleansed from sin and have the righteousness of Christ when we believe, right? I did not hear an audible voice of God, but my understanding was as though I was speaking with Him. My word says, in my servant Paul’s letter to the Corinthians that your works will be purged with fire prior to entering heaven. I thought but that is not Catholic Purgatory, that is just your cleansing fire at the judgement seat to prepare us for eternal joy in heaven, that happens instantly. He said but you are purged with fire right? Yes Lord.

Several scriptures kept running through my mind. Unless God builds the house they labor in vain that build it.. Lean not to your own understanding… scripture is of no private interpretation… I said ok those are good scriptures but what does this have to do with the Catholic Church?

Consider the parable of the wheat and the tares, and my scripture that says there is One Lord, One Faith, one baptism, one forgiveness of sins. Is Christ divided? I said no, we are united by faith in you. He said oh really, then why can’t you stop sinning?

I said that my flesh is too weak. I cannot keep the whole law, I am not under law, I am under grace. I am not saved by works, but by faith. He said do you really think that I would save you by my grace and leave you in sin? I have come to redeem sinners, not sin itself. Repent for now is the day of salvation and the day of mercy before God, not some unforeseen future. I said ok, but what does this have to do with the Catholic Church? He said you will know them by their fruits. I said oh that is easy, the Catholic Church is so full of rotten fruit, I will keep looking

He said ah ah ah, the fruits you look for are not in others, because you cannot take a splinter out of your brother’s eye when there is a log in your own. What is happening in myself? It was then that I trusted God and submitted whole heartily to Christ and His Church. When I did, the sin that so easily beset me was gone. The grace of God came upon me like I never knew. How do I know it was God and not Satan, because scripture says Satan does not cast out Satan. God’s grace is mighty to save and it flows through His Church and His sacraments. This understanding happened over the course of 16 years, but the cleansing of my sin began immediately on my submission. I give my testimony here because Christian Forums was where it all started.

I can only ask you, what are your fruits?
Are you chaste? Do you love your enemies? Do you have the peace that passes understanding? Do you rejoice in suffering or do you expect God to give you material blessings in this world in exchange for your faith? Do you take sin seriously or are waiting to be cleansed later?
Only you can answer these questions and I cannot judge you. Are you able to look at others and consider all of them as better than yourself?
Do you feel the hand of God in your life or do you strive to do everything yourself? Do you know God loves you and all His creatures?

I can only tell you that the grace of God is real. I was blind but now I see, lame but now I walk

I would wish the same for you, peace be with you
While not perfectly, I am chaste, I do love my enemies, I do have the peace that passes understanding. I don't rejoice in suffering or expect or seek after material blessings. I seek daily to mortify the sins of my flesh. Just because Protestants believe in eternal security (well most of us) does not mean we see it as a license to sin! Never. I have found more peace, more obedience, more fruit since I left the Catholic church. I am glad you found those things. I don't believe the only way to them is found in an institution. It is found through a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Church helps but most of that comes on a personal level with the Lord.
 
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NotUrAvgGuy

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I believe the Bereans set the example when they checked the Scriptures to see if what Paul was teaching was true. Who gave them the authority to question an Apostle? According to Catholics, the Apostles (and you believe their church) alone have the authority to interpret the Scriptures. Yet we have Paul praising the Bereans for doing the opposite and holding him accountable to the written word. Not all things were written down but anything taught that is not written down must agree with what was written down or be rejected. God does not contradict Himself.

But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! 9As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed! (Galatians 1:8-9)

Here, Paul says that if "we" (the Apostles) or "an angel from heaven" preach a gospel contrary to what they preached, such a person is to be accursed! Now, how can we follow Paul's instructions if the Apostles are beyond questioning? If they were the final authority, then they could have completely changed Jesus' teachings, and we would have no grounds to disagree. What if, centuries later, faithful Christians thought the church was preaching "a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you"? You say they have no grounds to protest, yet Paul said they should! What recourse do you have if those preaching "another gospel" refuse to repent and teach the truth except to leave? If they have the ecclesiastical authority, you can't force them out. They can ex-communicate you, but you can't ex-communicate them. You call such protests conjecture, but what if it is true?

That is what the protesters believed. I understand you disagree, but in their minds, they had no other choice. Remember, Luther first sought to reform the church. The church forced Luther out, but he did not leave as soon as he had disagreements.

The passage in 1 Corinthians says nothing about protesting false teaching. We are told to avoid false teachers and wolves who come in sheep's clothing. Paul warned they would come, and he meant from inside the church. If we see a wolf in the flock, are we to do nothing because they are in authority? Do we only let those in authority police those in authority? Paul didn't think so, for he said that even if all the Apostles taught another Gospel, they were all to be accursed.

I think Paul made it abundantly clear that we can and should hold those in positions of leadership accountable. No one is above reproach and we all hold each other accountable. It is not just those in authority. Christ did want unity among His followers but not at the expense of truth. We must each judge for ourself if the protesters were right or not but I absolutely believe that had the Biblical right to protest and if those in error did not repent, to depart. Unity never comes at the cost of truth.
 
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Where was all this praise for Mary in Paul's epistles? How about Peter's? John? James? The Book of Acts? The Apostles themselves left us no praise of Mary. Where do they teach Mary was sinless? You say the Catholic Church is the church of the Apostles yet the Apostles had almost nothing to say about Mary which is quite the ommission given how central she is to Catholic theology. Why would they leave such an important topic completely untouched in their writings? The same with Peter being the head of the church. Even Peter himself makes no reference to it and the Gospel written from his accounts (Mark's) does not even record the words about "the rock."

These were later developments by men and not the teaching of the Apostles.
You misunderstand the Apostles silence. Just as great military commanders are not honored while they are alive, Mary need not be honored until after her assumption

The primary Christian virtue is humility and obedience. It is very difficult to remain humble and be praised while alive.

The Apostles taught the truth about Jesus, but our flesh is weak. Jesus said to become as little children to enter heaven, every child has a mother, Mary is the mother of the Church, the new Eve.
You can try and go to Jesus on your own, but tell me. Are you living sin free? Do you rejoice in suffering? Do you love all your enemies? Do you mortify the deeds of your flesh?
If not, ask your mother for help. She can pray for you.

God wants souls to do His will, not just say they believe and do nothing, even demons can do that. Pray to Jesus for grace to obey His commands
 
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NotUrAvgGuy

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You misunderstand the Apostles silence. Just as great military commanders are not honored while they are alive, Mary need not be honored until after her assumption

The primary Christian virtue is humility and obedience. It is very difficult to remain humble and be praised while alive.

The Apostles taught the truth about Jesus, but our flesh is weak. Jesus said to become as little children to enter heaven, every child has a mother, Mary is the mother of the Church, the new Eve.
You can try and go to Jesus on your own, but tell me. Are you living sin free? Do you rejoice in suffering? Do you love all your enemies? Do you mortify the deeds of your flesh?
If not, ask your mother for help. She can pray for you.

God wants souls to do His will, not just say they believe and do nothing, even demons can do that. Pray to Jesus for grace to obey His commands
Mary cannot hear my prayers and I can pray directly to Jesus. He loves to hear the prayers of sinners.

Why do you keep questioning my obedience? I have already answered you on that.

Mary is not the mother of the church or the new eve. She is Mary, Mother of Jesus and godly woman. The Apostles wrote nothing about her because she is not all those things.
 
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David Lamb

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I am trying to understand this according to CF rules, and honestly do not want to be insulting.
You may say that the Catholic Church is not THE Church. That is your opinion and you are entitled to it.
When we look at history, we get a different picture. There is the Apostolic Church and those that departed from her.

Some say that the Catholic Church apostacized and lost the right to be called the Church, but does that hold up under scrutiny of the word of God?

Jesus promised that the gates of hell would not prevail against the Church that He built on the rock of Peter. I have heard the arguments of petros and Petras, but they neglect that our Lord taught in Aramaic, a language that has no distinction between Petros and Petras. In fact the word for little rock is lithos. -as and -os are just gender distinctions that are not present in Aramaic, not a distinction between rock and little rock.

We have Jesus before His Ascension breathing on the Apostles and giving them the power to forgive sins and gave them the great commission to baptize and teach the faith to all nations

We also have the parable of the wheat and the tares that tells us that the devil will send in his minions to pollute the Church. He did not say to depart from the Church and start a new one. He said to continue with the Church until the day of judgement. The Catholic Church is the only one that can claim to be THE Church by right of apostolic succession and the Chair of Peter.

To disprove that, you will have to study all of Catholic doctrine and show definitively that it is anti-biblical and not just differ from your opinion of scripture

Like the Ethiopian Eunuch that was reading the Bible says. How can I know what it means unless someone interprets? The Apostles have the authority to interpret, others have opinions

Are there evil people in the Catholic Church? Absolutely, but the Church is the body of Christ not necessarily the people that claim membership to her. The parable of wheat and tares proves this

The Catholic Church considers all Protestant groups a separate brethren by baptism. We grieve for them because the fullness of the faith is not known just as we grieve for the tares in the Church

The existence of separated brethren and high church that have left does not disprove the Apostolic authority of the Catholic Church.

What authority do you use to support your view?
Regardless of what you say, surely on these forums, which are open to people from all sorts of churches, it is inappropriate, and confusing, to use "the church" to mean "the Roman Catholic church."
 
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The "church" Jesus said would withstand the gates of hell is the church universal. The body of all believers no matter what earthly church they attend and that church cannot and will not be overcome by Satan.

While Jesus and the Apostles spoke Aramaic, the Gospel of Matthew was written in Greek and inspired by the Holy Spirit. Each word that was chosen in the Greek, was chosen for a reason. We are reading a bare-bones, written account. We don't know what inflection Jesus may have used or if He pointed with His hands when He spoke those words. Perhaps He pointed to Himself when He said "and upon this rock I will build my church?" We don't have recorded for us any discussion that took place afterward where perhaps the meaning was made more clear. While all four Gospels include this account, only Matthew's records Jesus' words about "the rock."

We can only go by what was written, as the rest is speculation, but I find nothing outside that one account in Matthew that would support that God's church on earth is built on Peter. Peter never mentions it in his epistles, nor does Paul. That one account in Matthew, which can be legitimately understood in other ways, is not enough for me to believe the church is built on Peter. Paul said it is built on the prophets and the Apostles. Jesus said He is the chief cornerstone. The fact that centuries later the Catholic church claims their Pope is the successor to Peter does not make it so.



You assume by "church" Jesus meant a specific institution on earth as opposed to the church universal. We are instructed in Scripture to avoid the company of those who would lead us astray. Sometimes departing is the only way. You also assume Peter had the authority to name a successor. Maybe his office was only for him to last until the end of his life by which time the church would be firmly established and would have no need for a single head? We don't even know with 100% certainty that Peter made it to Rome much less headed the church there. That bishops of regional churches would have successors is logical but that doesn't mean Peter had special powers or authority to hand to his successor even if he made it to Rome.



This has been done by many scholars over the centuries, but it makes no difference to Catholics because you can just say, "That's your opinion," and dismiss what was said. So your statement makes no sense given that you would dismiss any definite proof as just an opinion.



His was a unique case, though, as he had no Scriptures and no teacher. God does gift some with the gift of teaching. They have a gift for understand and explaining things in ways that are beneficial to others. This is true in all areas of life. The Ethiopian Eunuch evidently had some exposure to the OT but had likely never sat in a Synagogue and been taught. He also likely did not have personal access to a copy. He wanted someone to explain it to him. The vast majority of Scripture is easily understood by anyone who can read. It does not take years of seminary training and linguistic expertise to understand. We are blessed to live in an age where the Bible is easy to own although sadly not in some countries. The Apostles are no longer with us but we have the next best thing. We have their written words and the Holy Spirit to guide us.



According to the Council of Trent, Protestants are anathema as we believe salvation is by faith alone. I have also read Catholic documents that say those baptized outside the Catholic church can be considered "separated brethren" so long as they do not knowingly and willingly reject the teachings of the Catholic church. My paraphrase. In other words, if you are separated by ignorance, you are still covered by the church but if you willingly reject the Catholic church, then you are outside her salvation. That would mean someone like me is considered anathema and beyond salvation because I willingly and knowingly departed from her. By the church's own teaching, most Protestants are not separated brethren.
Where does Scripture say that the Church is invisible?

The things that the Church has anathemtized, most Protestants agree with.

Most I have encountered do not believe in antinomianism, which would be no law at all
We would have people that make a one time profession of faith and then lead a deplorable sinful life and still call themselves “saved”. Most Protestants do not believe that, although some come close

The Bible says we are not saved by faith alone. It says we are saved by GRACE through faith and that not of ourselves.

When you really think about it, Protestants say we are not saved by works; however the faith most teach is a work, in that it is something the believer does by his own effort. The sinner’s prayer is a work, the confessing with the mouth is a work, yet it is called faith. Is this the “alone” that we are taking about? I have also heard it said that if you go though the motions of this “faith” work, that God is now legally obligated to save the soul no matter what else is done. Is this what scripture teaches?

Can’t find it anywhere. James says no faith alone , and Paul describes the state of faith alone in his letter to the Corinthians chapter 13, if I have faith so as to move mountains, yet have not charity, I am nothing. Paul does not teach faith alone because he says work out your salvation with fear and trembling.

What does scripture teach? We are saved by grace, as does the Catholic Church. There is nothing a human can do to receive grace
We receive it by doing what Christ said to do, follow His commandments. He says if anyone comes after me, he must deny himself take up his cross and follow me. We hear the word of God preached and realize we need to repent, yet our flesh is weak. We can only submit in obedience and receive baptism. It is at baptism that we receive the theological virtues. These cannot be obtained by human effort, but are freely given when we submit in obedience and stop the protest that God must save us. God is the author and finisher of our faith and He told us what to do to receive it.

The three gifts that we receive at baptism are Faith, Hope, and Charity. Faith to know that God is and is a rewarder of those that diligently seek Him. Hope to know that God will complete His work in us beginning in this life. He has called us to deny ourselves. Our flesh is weak and we want to exalt ourselves, but this is absurd before God. If we humble ourselves and practice self denial, God will reward us with spiritual strength because He said He would. The last gift is the greatest gift which is charity or divine love. Some think this refers to other people; it does somewhat, but the command to love is two fold.
We God grants us the gift of Charity. Charity allows us to love God with our whole heart and fills us with a burning desire to obey Christ and His Church. That is the first commandment to love God with our whole heart whole life and whole soul. The second part is to love our neighbor as ourselves. We cannot say that we love our neighbor as ourselves and ignore the commands of God. He commands us to practice self denial, and if we wish to follow Him, that is what we do. We practice mortification of our flatly desires and develop virtue, that takes work. Our flesh is weak and must become disciplined, that is being a disciple. We are not all called to be Apostles, but we are all called to be disciples
He says take my yoke on your shoulders and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble of heart. He does not say to repeat the sinner’s prayer and keep living in sin because one says he is too weak to stop, even though God promises to deliver us if we ask Him.
The gifts we receive at justification are Faith, Hope, and Charity, not faith alone, and certainly not a work generated within ourselves which makes God bound to save us.

Scripture says that in heaven, we are judged by our works. They are important, because we are judged by them. If we say we cannot do works and just wait for death, we ignore God’s commands and refuse to learn from Him. How is it we say we love Him by not working when He says if you love me keep my commandments?

It is the sin of sloth to say that good works are of no value. Do we just say Lord, Lord and expect to get into heaven? Readers of scripture know that we wont.

The works that we do after justification are not of ourselves, they are the grace of God. As scripture says, it is no longer I that liveth, but Christ that liveth me.

We do not anathemetize the Gospel, rather perversions of the Gospel that most Protestants would agree are perversions.
 
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NotUrAvgGuy

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Where does Scripture say that the Church is invisible?
That is a manmade term, but shows that there are those that are saved outside of any one particular ecclesiastical organization. The Etheopian Enuch, for example. After he was saved, he instantly belonged to the invisible church. He was not yet a member of any organized church. He was not a Catholic or a Baptist or a Lutheran. He was part of God's church which includes all who have saving faith no matter where they live or worship.

The things that the Church has anathemtized, most Protestants agree with.

Most I have encountered do not believe in antinomianism, which would be no law at all
We would have people that make a one time profession of faith and then lead a deplorable sinful life and still call themselves “saved”. Most Protestants do not believe that, although some come close
Protestantism, correctly understood, does not believe in antinomianism. We believe that true saving faith is followed by sanctification. Sanctification nessecarily follows salvation as night follows day. This is what James meant when he wrote of dead faith. Some may think they are saved because they prayed to receive Christ, but if in their hearts they did not mean it, they are not saved and sanctification will not follow. That is also what is meant by the wheat and the tares. There are some in every church who go through the motions and say all the right things but their hearts are far from God. Our works don't save us but they are the fruit of our salvation. The seed that falls into the good ground produces fruit. Fruit is the evidence of salvation but not the basis of it.

The Bible says we are not saved by faith alone. It says we are saved by GRACE through faith and that not of ourselves.
God gives us saving faith by His grace. Both our faith and His grace are gifts. We play no part. We cannot conjure up faith on our own, and God's grace is irresistible. He does not give us salvific grace and then leave it to us to exercise that faith. It is all one act whereby He saves us. He has chosen us before we were even created and wrote our names in the Book of Life. He graces us to save us.


When you really think about it, Protestants say we are not saved by works; however the faith most teach is a work, in that it is something the believer does by his own effort. The sinner’s prayer is a work, the confessing with the mouth is a work, yet it is called faith. Is this the “alone” that we are taking about? I have also heard it said that if you go though the motions of this “faith” work, that God is now legally obligated to save the soul no matter what else is done. Is this what scripture teaches?

This is why Paul wrote:

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. (Ephesians 2:8-9)

Faith is not a work. Not as the Bible defines works. How could it be our work if it is the gift of God? If someone gives me a gift, I have done no work to merit that gift. Gifts cannot be earned or merited. If it is something due then it is not a gift. Our faith is a gift. It comes from God and it is not a work.

Can’t find it anywhere. James says no faith alone , and Paul describes the state of faith alone in his letter to the Corinthians chapter 13, if I have faith so as to move mountains, yet have not charity, I am nothing. Paul does not teach faith alone because he says work out your salvation with fear and trembling.

What does scripture teach? We are saved by grace, as does the Catholic Church. There is nothing a human can do to receive grace
We receive it by doing what Christ said to do, follow His commandments. He says if anyone comes after me, he must deny himself take up his cross and follow me. We hear the word of God preached and realize we need to repent, yet our flesh is weak. We can only submit in obedience and receive baptism. It is at baptism that we receive the theological virtues. These cannot be obtained by human effort, but are freely given when we submit in obedience and stop the protest that God must save us. God is the author and finisher of our faith and He told us what to do to receive it.

The three gifts that we receive at baptism are Faith, Hope, and Charity. Faith to know that God is and is a rewarder of those that diligently seek Him. Hope to know that God will complete His work in us beginning in this life. He has called us to deny ourselves. Our flesh is weak and we want to exalt ourselves, but this is absurd before God. If we humble ourselves and practice self denial, God will reward us with spiritual strength because He said He would. The last gift is the greatest gift which is charity or divine love. Some think this refers to other people; it does somewhat, but the command to love is two fold.
We God grants us the gift of Charity. Charity allows us to love God with our whole heart and fills us with a burning desire to obey Christ and His Church. That is the first commandment to love God with our whole heart whole life and whole soul. The second part is to love our neighbor as ourselves. We cannot say that we love our neighbor as ourselves and ignore the commands of God. He commands us to practice self denial, and if we wish to follow Him, that is what we do. We practice mortification of our flatly desires and develop virtue, that takes work. Our flesh is weak and must become disciplined, that is being a disciple. We are not all called to be Apostles, but we are all called to be disciples
He says take my yoke on your shoulders and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble of heart. He does not say to repeat the sinner’s prayer and keep living in sin because one says he is too weak to stop, even though God promises to deliver us if we ask Him.
The gifts we receive at justification are Faith, Hope, and Charity, not faith alone, and certainly not a work generated within ourselves which makes God bound to save us.

Scripture says that in heaven, we are judged by our works. They are important, because we are judged by them. If we say we cannot do works and just wait for death, we ignore God’s commands and refuse to learn from Him. How is it we say we love Him by not working when He says if you love me keep my commandments?

It is the sin of sloth to say that good works are of no value. Do we just say Lord, Lord and expect to get into heaven? Readers of scripture know that we wont.

The works that we do after justification are not of ourselves, they are the grace of God. As scripture says, it is no longer I that liveth, but Christ that liveth me.

We do not anathemetize the Gospel, rather perversions of the Gospel that most Protestants would agree are perversions.
As I already pointed out, there is no conflict between Paul and James. We are saved by faith alone and not by works but faith is never alone. Saving faith leds to sanctification which is the evidence of our faith. We love our neighbor and obey God because He has saved us and given us a new heart. There are two judgments in heaven. The first judgment all men attend. It is where the sheep are separated from the goats. The sheep to eternal life and the goats to eternal damnation. The second judgment is a judgment of works and for the sheep only. It is not a judgment for salvation. It is to try our works by fire and reward us for those works that survive the fire. The true good works God did through us. Our salvation is not determined by those works. We may have little left after the fire but we will still be saved.

Catholics often think Protestants believe they can "say the magic words" then are saved and live their lives like the devil, and it doesn't matter. Nothing could be further from the truth and any Protestants who believe that better examine their faith as Paul encourages us to do. We deny works play any part in salvation but absolutely insist works follow saving faith as surely as night follows day. We live in obedience to God out of joy and thanksgiving for all He has done for us. We do not do so in fear hoping we are good enough for heaven and praying we do not have to do penance in Purgatory (which is not Biblical). As Paul wrote, to be absent from the body is to be at home with the Lord. There is no Purgatory.

The anathemas of the Catholic church are unbiblical. They deny salvation is by grace alone through faith alone.
 
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Valletta

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My point is, that there is nothing about the role of the queen mother in the line of kings beginning with Solomon that applies to heaven. You are making the assumption it does but Scripture nowhere says that. You are extrapolating what happened in an earthly line of kings and from it creating a role for Mary in heaven the Bible nowhere describes. While anything is possible, I don't see any reason to believe Mary will have such a role in heaven. I also don't see a need for such a role as a king's court in heaven is profoundly different than a king's court on earth. I see no description of Mary in heaven or what her role might be in heaven. I don't see any reason to believe the woman in Revelation 12 is Mary. I believe the RCC is being dogmatic about something not taught in Scripture.
In Revelation the one to rule "with and iron rod" is Jesus, a real person. The dragon in Revelation is a real entity, Satan. And the woman who gives birth to Jesus is a real woman, Mary. This is the plain meaning. Israel, of course, is not a real woman. Nor does Israel wear clothes. And the woman wears a crown, as does a queen, and the mother of the Davidic king since Solomom is a queen. You would admit Jesus is a real person and Satan is a real entity, but the woman, the one who went through birth, is not a real woman. Your logic is that, "you don't see a need" for Mary's role in heaven. Not only is that your conclusion, but you don't seen any evidence of the plain meaning. As I have said so many times God's ways are far above our ways, and one can get far away from the truth in one's personal Bible interpretation with such thinking. Jesus did not come to abolish, but to fulfill. Much of what is portrayed in the OT is fulfilled in the NT.
 
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While Jesus and the Apostles spoke Aramaic, the Gospel of Matthew was written in Greek and inspired by the Holy Spirit. Each word that was chosen in the Greek, was chosen for a reason. We are reading a bare-bones, written account. We don't know what inflection Jesus may have used or if He pointed with His hands when He spoke those words. Perhaps He pointed to Himself when He said "and upon this rock I will build my church?" We don't have recorded for us any discussion that took place afterward where perhaps the meaning was made more clear. While all four Gospels include this account, only Matthew's records Jesus' words about "the rock."
The original Aramaic name that Jesus gave to Simon, "Kepha," transliterated as "Cephas" is preserved within the Bible. "Kepha" means "Rock."
Remember Jesus foretold of the renaming of Simon. When Jesus did rename Simon Jesus chose the moment when he spoke of building His Church. Jesus said "Thou art Rock and upon this Rock I will build my Church." The renaming and the building upon are all in one sentence. If Jesus was referring to Himself He could have simply said "I am Jesus and upon this rock I will build My Church" and renamed Simon at any other time.
Remember that the Bible is the Word of God, all true. You should not draw any conclusions because the passage in stated in one Gospel, it is just as true.
 
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NotUrAvgGuy

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In Revelation the one to rule "with and iron rod" is Jesus, a real person. The dragon in Revelation is a real entity, Satan. And the woman who gives birth to Jesus is a real woman, Mary. This is the plain meaning. Israel, of course, is not a real woman. Nor does Israel wear clothes. And the woman wears a crown, as does a queen, and the mother of the Davidic king since Solomom is a queen. You would admit Jesus is a real person and Satan is a real entity, but the woman, the one who went through birth, is not a real woman. Your logic is that, "you don't see a need" for Mary's role in heaven. Not only is that your conclusion, but you don't seen any evidence of the plain meaning. As I have said so many times God's ways are far above our ways, and one can get far away from the truth in one's personal Bible interpretation with such thinking. Jesus did not come to abolish, but to fulfill. Much of what is portrayed in the OT is fulfilled in the NT.
The dragon is a real entity but not a dragon. Israel is a real entity but not a woman. It is not uncommon to say things like "the United States gave birth to democracy." We don't mean that literally but we get the idea. In the same way, Israel gave birth to the Messiah. That is not a hard symbol to understand. The dragon is a symbol for Satan. Many things in the Book of Revelation are symbolic. Did Mary sprout wings and fly into the desert?
 
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The original Aramaic name that Jesus gave to Simon, "Kepha," transliterated as "Cephas" is preserved within the Bible. "Kepha" means "Rock."
Remember Jesus foretold of the renaming of Simon. When Jesus did rename Simon Jesus chose the moment when he spoke of building His Church. Jesus said "Thou art Rock and upon this Rock I will build my Church." The renaming and the building upon are all in one sentence. If Jesus was referring to Himself He could have simply said "I am Jesus and upon this rock I will build My Church" and renamed Simon at any other time.
Remember that the Bible is the Word of God, all true. You should not draw any conclusions because the passage in stated in one Gospel, it is just as true.
I am not saying that it doesn't count if found in only one Gospel. Even if Jesus renamed Peter "rock", or Cephas, that doesn't mean He was making him the head of the church and declaring he would have successors. We are told elsewhere in Scripture that the foundation of the church is the prophets and the Apostles. How can it be both Peter and them? The church is built on the foundation of Jesus Christ. He is the chief cornerstone and the prophets and the Apostles were called by God and given their message from God. Jesus is the foundation but He builds through the prophets and the Apostles and in time all of us.
 
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Mary cannot hear my prayers and I can pray directly to Jesus. He loves to hear the prayers of sinners.

Why do you keep questioning my obedience? I have already answered you on that.

Mary is not the mother of the church or the new eve. She is Mary, Mother of Jesus and godly woman. The Apostles wrote nothing about her because she is not all those things.
According to Psalm 45 (44 in DouayRhiems) she is at the right hand of Jesus. She can hear our prayers because Our Lord and your Lord reveals them to her. You should contemplate Psalm 45(44).

There is only one mediator between the Divine and the human, that is Our Lord Jesus Christ. We do not make false gods like Buddha, Allah, Krishna or any of the other false prophets and pretend that they are communicating with the divine. There is only Jesus.

When we look at Jesus commands, he commands us to love one another. We are the Body of Christ and we share in the marriage supper of the lamb. We are not to be alone.
God said it is not good for the man to be alone, we have brothers and sisters. God even commands us to love our enemies. There is no isolation in heaven.
Those that want isolation, can only achieve it apart from God. They will be in outer darkness, where they will have all eternity to contemplate their individuality. Even prisoners fear solitary confinement on earth. I could not imagine the horror of eternity.

Paul gives a beautiful description of the body of Christ all working together. He tells us to value our place in it and not be jealous of others.
We cannot say “because I am not the eye, I am not of the body”
Mary was the first creature to touch the divine. Do you think she was indifferent to it, just completely unaware? Oh I didn’t know my son was God, I just thought he was a good kid?

Would God keep the first creature that He touched in complete darkness as to His presence ? Does He throw her away when He has better things to do? No that does not happen

Mary is as the first Christian, and she is the mother of us all, as Our Savior came forth through her. Christ commands us to be as little children. Children do not spring from the grass or coalesce out of the ether, they all have a mother and a father. We are in union as the community of saints.

If your understanding of the one mediator is true, then why bother to gather ourselves together to worship? We can do it alone with just Jesus. Why ask our brothers and sisters to pray for us? We should do it alone. What exactly is the point of other people then?

I do not question your obedience. I question your understanding. As Jesus said from the cross, Father forgive them, the do not know what they are doing.

God loves you and has given you so many people around you to help you. You just have to ask. That includes your mother, Mary.

Consider that it was at the sound of her voice that John lept in the womb
 
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Regardless of what you say, surely on these forums, which are open to people from all sorts of churches, it is inappropriate, and confusing, to use "the church" to mean "the Roman Catholic church."
It goes both ways and the rules of CF have stood for over 20 years. You believe the Church is invisible. We believe that God created a visible Church over which the gates of hell will not prevail.

You are not going to tell me that you are Protestant not Protestant. I cannot be expected to say I am Catholic not Catholic. We both exist in CF and need not talk as if we don’t.

It is Freemasonry that tells us that all religions are the same, and we only need worship the grand architect of the universe. That is indifferentism, which is a heresy that sounds pious but only winds up worshiping Lucifer
No, we are not masons, we are CF.
 
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The anathemas of the Catholic church are unbiblical. They deny salvation is by grace alone through faith alone.

That is your position, but are you willing to back it up. Scripture says to always be ready to give an answer for the faith that you have. You claim Catholic anathemas are unbiblical, well then list them , tell me which ones you disagree with and why.
This thread is about Mary. You have insulted the Church of whom she is Mother. Do you wish to discuss or do you expect us to just trade motherly insults like the pagans?
While not perfectly, I am chaste, I do love my enemies, I do have the peace that passes understanding. I don't rejoice in suffering or expect or seek after material blessings. I seek daily to mortify the sins of my flesh. Just because Protestants believe in eternal security (well most of us) does not mean we see it as a license to sin! Never. I have found more peace, more obedience, more fruit since I left the Catholic church. I am glad you found those things. I don't believe the only way to them is found in an institution. It is found through a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Church helps but most of that comes on a personal level with the Lord.
I am glad you have an understanding of the Gospel. The one thing you lack is John 6, the bread of life.

Jesus gives us the sacraments as visible signs of His grace. Scripture says that anyone that denies that Jesus is come in the flesh is false

With the sacraments we can interact with Jesus right now in this world in the flesh. The sacraments come from Christ, through the authority of the apostles and His priests. We can touch Him and talk to Him right now in this world

In Protestant theology Jesus is only a concept, He is not come in the flesh or that was just a long time ago, now He is gone. The real presence is here through His visible Church, Ex Opere Operato. This IS my body do this in remembrance of me. Protestants say it is symbolic and not real
 
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Valletta

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I am not saying that it doesn't count if found in only one Gospel. Even if Jesus renamed Peter "rock", or Cephas, that doesn't mean He was making him the head of the church and declaring he would have successors. We are told elsewhere in Scripture that the foundation of the church is the prophets and the Apostles. How can it be both Peter and them? The church is built on the foundation of Jesus Christ. He is the chief cornerstone and the prophets and the Apostles were called by God and given their message from God. Jesus is the foundation but He builds through the prophets and the Apostles and in time all of us.
Rock is used by Jesus as a name given to Simon, and Rock is used in the Bible to describe God. How can it be used for both? You must simply accept the Word of God as truth. As Catholics have pointed out so many times, Jesus is our cornerstone. Without Jesus there is no Catholic Church.
 
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NotUrAvgGuy

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According to Psalm 45 (44 in DouayRhiems) she is at the right hand of Jesus. She can hear our prayers because Our Lord and your Lord reveals them to her. You should contemplate Psalm 45(44).
Psalm (45) is about a king about to marry. The reference to the queen is to his wife. To claim the queen has a double fulfillment in Mary is reading something into the text that is just not there.

There is only one mediator between the Divine and the human, that is Our Lord Jesus Christ. We do not make false gods like Buddha, Allah, Krishna or any of the other false prophets and pretend that they are communicating with the divine. There is only Jesus.

When we look at Jesus commands, he commands us to love one another. We are the Body of Christ and we share in the marriage supper of the lamb. We are not to be alone.
God said it is not good for the man to be alone, we have brothers and sisters. God even commands us to love our enemies. There is no isolation in heaven.
Those that want isolation, can only achieve it apart from God. They will be in outer darkness, where they will have all eternity to contemplate their individuality. Even prisoners fear solitary confinement on earth. I could not imagine the horror of eternity.

Paul gives a beautiful description of the body of Christ all working together. He tells us to value our place in it and not be jealous of others.
We cannot say “because I am not the eye, I am not of the body”
Mary was the first creature to touch the divine. Do you think she was indifferent to it, just completely unaware? Oh I didn’t know my son was God, I just thought he was a good kid?

I am not sure what all this has to do with the topic at hand. I am not isolated. I am part of the body and a local body.

Would God keep the first creature that He touched in complete darkness as to His presence ? Does He throw her away when He has better things to do? No that does not happen

Mary is as the first Christian, and she is the mother of us all, as Our Savior came forth through her. Christ commands us to be as little children. Children do not spring from the grass or coalesce out of the ether, they all have a mother and a father. We are in union as the community of saints.

If your understanding of the one mediator is true, then why bother to gather ourselves together to worship? We can do it alone with just Jesus. Why ask our brothers and sisters to pray for us? We should do it alone. What exactly is the point of other people then?

I do not question your obedience. I question your understanding. As Jesus said from the cross, Father forgive them, the do not know what they are doing.

God loves you and has given you so many people around you to help you. You just have to ask. That includes your mother, Mary.

Consider that it was at the sound of her voice that John lept in the womb
Who says God kept Mary in "complete darkness?" Who says He has thrown her away? Yes, we gather to worship but we don't consider each other mediators. That is Jesus alone. We can ask others to pray for us but they are not acting as mediators and they are here on earth where we can talk to them. Mary is in heaven where we cannot communicate with her. God is the only one who can hear our prayers and, by definition, prayer is communication from man to God. Not man to Mary or man to "saints." That would not be prayer but some other form of communication as prayer is only to God. God has not given us a way to talk to those who have gone before us to heaven.

I have never said we should do everything alone. We should encourage, love, and support one another. We are to be a community. That has nothing to do with Mary.

We are to be "like" children in our attitude. We are called children of God but not in a literal sense. We are part of God's family. We do not have a mother. In heaven, there is no marriage and we will all be brothers and sisters. The family unit of mother, father, and children was for this life only and for humans only. God has no spouse. Mary is Jesus' mother, not ours.
 
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Rock is used by Jesus as a name given to Simon, and Rock is used in the Bible to describe God. How can it be used for both? You must simply accept the Word of God as truth. As Catholics have pointed out so many times, Jesus is our cornerstone. Without Jesus there is no Catholic Church.
God is referred to as "the rock" throughout the OT. That is before Peter even existed. It is context that tells us who "rock" is referring to. When Jesus said He would build His church "upon this rock", He could have had Himself in mind, Peter's confession of faith, or Peter himself. I have no doubt that Jesus was calling Peter to be a leader among the Apostles. In that sense, he is a rock but a small rock. The Rock is Jesus. We are told the church is built on the foundation of the prophets and the Apostles. Does Scripture contradict itself? It cannot be the prophets and the Apostles and Peter alone.

The Apostles were unique. They were given gifts that ceased with them and their era. They were to be the first messengers to start the church. No instructions are given that says they were to have successors or that Peter would have a successor.

I believe Jesus is The Rock and the church is built upon the foundation of the prophets and the Apostles with Jesus being the chief cornerstone. That is accepting the Word of God as truth.
 
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Psalm (45) is about a king about to marry. The reference to the queen is to his wife. To claim the queen has a double fulfillment in Mary is reading something into the text that is just not there.



I am not sure what all this has to do with the topic at hand. I am not isolated. I am part of the body and a local body.


Who says God kept Mary in "complete darkness?" Who says He has thrown her away? Yes, we gather to worship but we don't consider each other mediators. That is Jesus alone. We can ask others to pray for us but they are not acting as mediators and they are here on earth where we can talk to them. Mary is in heaven where we cannot communicate with her. God is the only one who can hear our prayers and, by definition, prayer is communication from man to God. Not man to Mary or man to "saints." That would not be prayer but some other form of communication as prayer is only to God. God has not given us a way to talk to those who have gone before us to heaven.

I have never said we should do everything alone. We should encourage, love, and support one another. We are to be a community. That has nothing to do with Mary.

We are to be "like" children in our attitude. We are called children of God but not in a literal sense. We are part of God's family. We do not have a mother. In heaven, there is no marriage and we will all be brothers and sisters. The family unit of mother, father, and children was for this life only and for humans only. God has no spouse. Mary is Jesus' mother, not ours.
A king about to marry?

Contemplate what you just said.
Mary and Our Lord have a child together which is the Son of God. Are your saying that Jesus had an illegitimate birth by being born to a woman to whom the father was not bound?

There is so much in Psalm 45 that points to Jesus and Mary. Do you agree that the King is Jesus?

Look at what it says:

7 Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a sceptre of uprightness. 8 Thou hast loved justice, and hated iniquity: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. 9 Myrrh and stacte and cassia perfume thy garments, from the ivory houses: out of which 10 The daughters of kings have delighted thee in thy glory. The queen stood on thy right hand, in gilded clothing; surrounded with variety.

11 Hearken, O daughter, and see, and incline thy ear: and forget thy people and thy father's house. 12 And the king shall greatly desire thy beauty; for he is the Lord thy God, and him they shall adore. 13 And the daughters of Tyre with gifts, yea, all the rich among the people, shall entreat thy countenance. 14 All the glory of the king's daughter is within in golden borders, 15 Clothed round about with varieties. After her shall virgins be brought to the king: her neighbours shall be brought to thee.

16 They shall be brought with gladness and rejoicing: they shall be brought into the temple of the king. 17 Instead of thy fathers, sons are born to thee: thou shalt make them princes over all the earth. 18 They shall remember thy name throughout all generations. Therefore shall people praise thee for ever; yea, for ever and ever







The king she is about to marry is the Lord thy God. What other woman could say that the king she is marrying is the Lord her God? Him they shall adore. That is the Father. All the rich will entreat her countenance? Sounds like honoring Mary to me.

After her, virgins are brought. Those are nuns
Instead of thy fathers, sons are brought to thee to be princes over the earth. Those are priests, bishops, cardinals, popes. They remember her name and praise her forever. That is what the Catholic Church does to Mary. All the while it is the Lord thy God whom they adore.

Psalm 45 perfectly describes the Catholic Church, which is the Church. Mary is our mother and the mother of all Christians
 
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David Lamb

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The king she is about to marry is the Lord thy God. What other woman could say that the king she is marrying is the Lord her God? Him they shall adore. That is the Father. All the rich will entreat her countenance? Sounds like honoring Mary to me.
But Jesus didn't marry His mother, nor do we read in the bible that Mary married God the Father.
After her, virgins are brought. Those are nuns
Instead of thy fathers, sons are brought to thee to be princes over the earth. Those are priests, bishops, cardinals, popes. They remember her name and praise her forever. That is what the Catholic Church does to Mary. All the while it is the Lord thy God whom they adore.
If you came to the Psalm not knowing about nuns, you wouldn't get the idea of a group of women living together under a Mother Superior. Similarly, you have to do a lot of reading into the Psalm to interpret this verse as referring to Roman Catholic priests, bishops, cardinals and popes:

“Instead of Your fathers shall be Your sons, Whom You shall make princes in all the earth.” (Ps 45:16 NKJV)
Psalm 45 perfectly describes the Catholic Church, which is the Church. Mary is our mother and the mother of all Christians
The bible nowhere tells us that Mary is the mother of all Christians.
 
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A king about to marry?

Contemplate what you just said.
Mary and Our Lord have a child together which is the Son of God. Are your saying that Jesus had an illegitimate birth by being born to a woman to whom the father was not bound?

There is so much in Psalm 45 that points to Jesus and Mary. Do you agree that the King is Jesus?

Look at what it says:

7 Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a sceptre of uprightness. 8 Thou hast loved justice, and hated iniquity: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. 9 Myrrh and stacte and cassia perfume thy garments, from the ivory houses: out of which 10 The daughters of kings have delighted thee in thy glory. The queen stood on thy right hand, in gilded clothing; surrounded with variety.

11 Hearken, O daughter, and see, and incline thy ear: and forget thy people and thy father's house. 12 And the king shall greatly desire thy beauty; for he is the Lord thy God, and him they shall adore. 13 And the daughters of Tyre with gifts, yea, all the rich among the people, shall entreat thy countenance. 14 All the glory of the king's daughter is within in golden borders, 15 Clothed round about with varieties. After her shall virgins be brought to the king: her neighbours shall be brought to thee.

16 They shall be brought with gladness and rejoicing: they shall be brought into the temple of the king. 17 Instead of thy fathers, sons are born to thee: thou shalt make them princes over all the earth. 18 They shall remember thy name throughout all generations. Therefore shall people praise thee for ever; yea, for ever and ever







The king she is about to marry is the Lord thy God. What other woman could say that the king she is marrying is the Lord her God? Him they shall adore. That is the Father. All the rich will entreat her countenance? Sounds like honoring Mary to me.

After her, virgins are brought. Those are nuns
Instead of thy fathers, sons are brought to thee to be princes over the earth. Those are priests, bishops, cardinals, popes. They remember her name and praise her forever. That is what the Catholic Church does to Mary. All the while it is the Lord thy God whom they adore.

Psalm 45 perfectly describes the Catholic Church, which is the Church. Mary is our mother and the mother of all Christians
The church is called "the bride of Christ" and Scripture speaks of the "Marriage Supper of the Lamb." If any queen is depicted here, it is the church (not the Catholic church but all who believe). This Psalm is talking about two things. An earthly royal wedding about to happen and also a picture of heaven and Jesus and the church. I don't see any reference to the Catholic church, nuns, priests, bishops, etc.

We know Mary and Joseph were betrothed. During bethrothal, any act of infidelity was considered adultery. If you want to say Mary was bound to God, in a spousal way, then you are accusing God of adultery? How could God and Mary have married while she was betrothed to Joseph? Did they then divorce? Joseph married Mary so how did Mary go from being betrothed to Joseph, a bride of God, and then married to Joseph?

Jesus was not illegitimate.
 
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