Where are the current ripples from Noah's Flood?

[stevevw]

Following this thread and you've not once shown that at all, nor that one follows the other. You've made repeated claims, for sure, but not presented anything as fact.

I though that was a given for anyone wanting to comment on these ancient cultures that they would at least know something about them. To say that Gobekli Tepe does not have complex and sophisticated religious beliefs is just obviously wrong considering the evidence that has been presented.

Centers of Progress, Pt. 31: Göbekli Tepe (Religion)
The site’s megalithic structures and intricate carvings symbolize the power of religious devotion.

Centers of Progress, Pt. 31: Göbekli Tepe (Religion)

humanprogress.org

DECODING GÖBEKLI TEPE WITH ARCHAEOASTRONOMY: WHAT DOES THE FOX SAY? | Mediterranean Archaeology and Archaeometry

Open Access journal covering interdisciplinary topics like archaeology, anthropology, and natural sciences applied to archaeology, focusing on the Mediterranean region's cultural heritage.

www.maajournal.com

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

I though that was a given for anyone wanting to comment on these ancient cultures that they would at least know something about them. To say that say for example Gobekli Tepe does not have complex and sophisticated religious beliefs is just obviously wrong considering the evidence that has bgeen presented.

Centers of Progress, Pt. 31: Göbekli Tepe (Religion)
The site’s megalithic structures and intricate carvings symbolize the power of religious devotion.

Centers of Progress, Pt. 31: Göbekli Tepe (Religion)

humanprogress.org

DECODING GÖBEKLI TEPE WITH ARCHAEOASTRONOMY: WHAT DOES THE FOX SAY? | Mediterranean Archaeology and Archaeometry

Open Access journal covering interdisciplinary topics like archaeology, anthropology, and natural sciences applied to archaeology, focusing on the Mediterranean region's cultural heritage.

www.maajournal.com

And that does nothing to prove that a global flood happened to such a magnitude that it stuck in the psyche of every human civilization many thousands of years after the event occurred.

Correlation does not equal causation.

 

[stevevw]

I was referring to your claim that the stele carvings predicted the date of Noah's flood with great accuracy. From your post #754 ",,,they predicted a major flood through the use of astrology."

Ok I did not know what you were referring to. I did not say it predicted Noahs flood with great accuracy. I said that there was an interpretation given from one of the pillars about the Younger Dryas flood event.

 

[stevevw]

And that does nothing to prove that a global flood happened to such a magnitude that it stuck in the psyche of every human civilization many thousands of years after the event occurred.

Correlation does not equal causation.

Fair enough and this is what we are trying to establish. Myths are usually based on real events. So if many cultures have this similar flood myth down to fine details is this the result of many floods which cultures just happen to have come to the same details. Or a single major flood that all these cultures or rather the decendents of these cultures refer to.

Considering that the biggest of all floods happened around 10,000 years ago with a rapid warming during the Younger Dryas and that it was a global event at least for the northern hemisphere then most cultures would have either experienced this directly or had heard about it.

This also would have come at a time when these cultures were first developing complex beliefs with astrology and animals and symbols. So would have seen the flood disaster as being from the gods and create the story in the first place.

If this is the case then this may be the first major flood event that most cultures experienced religiously.

That being the case the flood myth was already around and any culture whose ancestors experienced the first major flood would not need another flood event. One had already occured which most of the world experienced at a time when they were sophisticated enough to create the flood myth.

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

Fair enough and this is what we are trying to establish. Myths are usually based on real events. So if many cultures have this similar flood myth down to fine details is this the result of many floods which cultures just happen to have come to the same details. Or a single major flood that all these cultures or rather the decendents of these cultures refer to.

Considering that the biggest of all floods happened around 10,000 years ago with a rapid warming during the Younger Dryas and that it was a global event at least for the northern hemisphere then most cultures would have either experienced this directly or had heard about it.

This also would have come at a time when these cultures were first developing complex beliefs with astrology and animals and symbols. So would have seen the flood disaster as being from the gods and create the story in the first place.

If this is the case then this may be the first major flood event that most cultures experienced religiously.

That being the case the flood myth was already around and any culture whose ancestors experienced the first major flood would not need another flood event. One had already occured which most of the world experienced at a time when they were sophisticated enough to create the flood myth.

Or, and here's a very wild and mad personal theory: since all the major human civilizations virtually all are found around water ways, which are very prone to flooding in bad weather, then over the time, these stories of floods would be embellished into great epics of world-ending floods of godly proportions and wrath.

... just a personal theory...

 

[stevevw]

But you haven't done that.

You've claimed it, but shown nothing of the sort.

One again this is pretty common knowledge and something I should not have to prove. I have already provided some links that refer to the Younger Dryas. I mean we are talking about a pretty quick warming in the middle of an iceage so of course this will produce mega amounts of melted ice into the sea.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/252149205_Catastrophic_Flooding_of_the_Black_Sea

Identification of Younger Dryas outburst flood path from Lake Agassiz to the Arctic Ocean - Nature

Our current concepts of abrupt climate change are influenced by palaeoclimate evidence for events such as the Younger Dryas cold interval, in which massive climate changes occurred essentially instantaneously. It is thought that an injection of fresh water from the retreating Laurentide Ice...

www.nature.com

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

One again this is pretty common knowledge and something I should not have to prove. I have already provided some links that refer to the Younger Dryas. I mean we are talking about a pretty quick warming in the middle of an iceage so of course this will produce mega amounts of melted ice into the sea.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/252149205_Catastrophic_Flooding_of_the_Black_Sea

Identification of Younger Dryas outburst flood path from Lake Agassiz to the Arctic Ocean - Nature

Our current concepts of abrupt climate change are influenced by palaeoclimate evidence for events such as the Younger Dryas cold interval, in which massive climate changes occurred essentially instantaneously. It is thought that an injection of fresh water from the retreating Laurentide Ice...

www.nature.com

Linking to a paywalled article from Nature only shows that you can link to a paywalled article from Nature.

And using the phrase 'common knowledge' is a worthless buzzword of a sentence that means nothing. You claim that the Younger Dryas icemelts were the direct cause of the Noahic Flood myth. Okay... so substantiate it.

 

[stevevw]

Or, and here's a very wild and mad personal theory: since all the major human civilizations virtually all are found around water ways, which are very prone to flooding in bad weather, then over the time, these stories of floods would be embellished into great epics of world-ending floods of godly proportions and wrath.

... just a personal theory...

Ok good point. Though if there was a major flood that was earth shaking meaning most of the world would have experienced it or knew of it around 10,000 years ago then it would be the first such myth. I don't think any culture unless they were living on Mars or perhaps in the southern hemisphere far away would not have known about this great flood.

So it seems to me that the flood myth was already around so most cultures would be embellishing this myth rather than creating a new one based on some lesser known local flood.

 

[Astrid]

One again this is pretty common knowledge and something I should not have to prove. I have already provided some links that refer to the Younger Dryas. I mean we are talking about a pretty quick warming in the middle of an iceage so of course this will produce mega amounts of melted ice into the sea.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/252149205_Catastrophic_Flooding_of_the_Black_Sea

Identification of Younger Dryas outburst flood path from Lake Agassiz to the Arctic Ocean - Nature

Our current concepts of abrupt climate change are influenced by palaeoclimate evidence for events such as the Younger Dryas cold interval, in which massive climate changes occurred essentially instantaneously. It is thought that an injection of fresh water from the retreating Laurentide Ice...

www.nature.com

Ok good point. Though if there was a major flood that was earth shaking meaning most of the world would have experienced it or knew of it around 10,000 years ago then it would be the first such myth. I don't think any culture unless they were living on Mars or perhaps in the southern hemisphere far away would not have known about this great flood.

So it seems to me that the flood myth was already around so most cultures would be embellishing this myth rather than creating a

” IF there had been”
But there wasn’t.

 

[stevevw]

Linking to a paywalled article from Nature only shows that you can link to a paywalled article from Nature.

And using the phrase 'common knowledge' is a worthless buzzword of a sentence that means nothing. You claim that the Younger Dryas icemelts were the direct cause of the Noahic Flood myth. Okay... so substantiate it.

You keep saying that is my claim. Its not. Your putting claims in my mouth literally. All I am claiming is that a major flood event around 10,000 years ago during the Younger Dryas period may be the original true event that gave birth to the flood myth.

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

Ok good point. Though if there was a major flood that was earth shaking meaning most of the world would have experienced it or knew of it around 10,000 years ago then it would be the first such myth. I don't think any culture unless they were living on Mars or perhaps in the southern hemisphere far away would not have known about this great flood.

So it seems to me that the flood myth was already around so most cultures would be embellishing this myth rather than creating a new one based on some lesser known local flood.

Why would it have been the 'first such myth'?

And speaking of flood myths in the southern hemisphere, there are a few flood myths, but the Aborigines of Australia have the myth of Tiddalik the frog that held in all the water, leaving the other animals to perish from the lack of water before they tickled Tiddalik to release the water back to the world. Quite opposite to the myth of the Noahic flood, no? Kind of shows that myths and stories are dependent on regions in the points they make.

But again, as with the main point of the OP, this really does nothing to show that the OP's point that geology doesn't support the Biblical claim of a truly global flood having occurred, especially in such a short time frame as many YEC's and Biblical literalists say it does.

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

You keep saying that is my claim. Its not. Your putting claims in my mouth literally. All I am claiming is that a major flood event around 10,000 years ago during the Younger Dryas period may be the original true event that gave birth to the flood myth.

But it IS your claim. You just saying that there were floods caused by the Younger Dryas ice melts is just that: saying that there were floods caused by the Younger Dryas ice melts. Trying to link them to the Noahic/global flood stories IS what you are claiming.

 

[Astrid]

You keep saying that is my claim. Its not. Your putting claims in my mouth literally. All I am claiming is that a major flood event around 10,000 years ago during the Younger Dryas period may be the original true event that gave birth to the flood myth.

we know. But is obvious nonsense.

 

[stevevw]

” IF there had been”
But there wasn’t.

Did you even read the evidence. To say there was no major flooding during an iceage where the temperature spiked and melted glaciers seems against the evidence. Heat and ice don't mix well.

If there was any time there a major flood would happen it was going to be during this period. Anyway the evdienec supports a major flood so you need to deal with the evdience.

 

[stevevw]

But it IS your claim. You just saying that there were floods caused by the Younger Dryas ice melts is just that: saying that there were floods caused by the Younger Dryas ice melts. Trying to link them to the Noahic/global flood stories IS what you are claiming.

No I have said the flood event during the Younger Dryas may be the source of the flood myth, the original source considering these were the first religious cultures who experienced the flood.

That can apply to any culture today, the Hebrews, the Sumarians, Mesopotamians, Indians, Aztecs whoever. Why would I say its Noahs flood when the Hebrews did not come onto the scene until something like 6 or 7,000 years later. If they did then they are using another cultures flood myth.

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

No I have said the flood event during the Younger Dryas may be the source of the flood myth, the original source considering these were the first religious cultures who experienced the flood.

That can apply to any culture today, the Hebrews, the Sumarians, Mesopotamians, Indians, Aztecs whoever. Why would I say its Noahs flood when the Hebrews did not come onto the scene until something like 6 or 7,000 years later. If they did then they are using another cultures flood myth.

Again though, that's the claim, since you've not presented any evidence that backs up your claim.

But since we're on the topic of it, looking at the Wikipedia page entry on Flood myths, specifically the hypothesis of asteroid impacts on Earth:
"Archaeologist Bruce Masse stated that some of the narratives of a great flood discovered in many cultures around the world may be linked to an oceanic asteroid impact that occurred between Africa and Antarctica, around the time of a solar eclipse, that caused a tsunami. Among the 175 myths he analyzed were a Hindu myth speaking of an alignment of the five planets at the time, and a Chinese story linking the flood to the end of the reign of Empress Nu Wa. Fourteen flood myths refer to a full solar eclipse. According to Masse these indications point to the date May 10, 2807 BC. His hypothesis suggests that a meteor or comet crashed into the Indian Ocean around 3000–2800 BCE, and created the 18-mile (29 km) undersea Burckle Crater and Fenambosy Chevron, and generated a giant tsunami that flooded coastal lands."

The Burckle Crater and its resultant megatsunami hypothesis might be bunk unfortunately (which its own page details), but when a number of flood myths all have the same phenomenon involved, in this case, celestial bodies impacting the earth and creating tsunamis, that seems to be something more substantive to it than just 'ice age flooding'.

And of course the page brings up Mesopotamia, which had many of its major civilizations around large water sources which, as I've said before, routinely flooded and if you lived in a valley and only knew that valley as your world and said valley got flooded... well, humans being humans - boom - global flood myth.

 

[stevevw]

we know. But is obvious nonsense.

OK thats fair enough, now show evidence. Are you saying that a culture back then who experienced a major flood would not then have a story to tell of such an event. If other culture made such stories of lesser floods why not these culture.

 

[Astrid]

Did you even read the evidence. To say there was no major flooding during an iceage where the temperature spiked and melted glaciers seems against the evidence. Heat and ice don't mix well.

If there was any time there a major flood would happen it was going to be during this period. Anyway the evdienec supports a major flood so you need to deal with the evdience.

Did I read? I’ve a bachelors in geology which does indicate interest.

Your “ to say….”bit is you making up things to argue against.
Imsaid nothing of the kind.
As for reading, you getting my words thst wrong shows well
how you spin fantasy from anything you read.

there’s been lots of floods.

”Deal with evidence” = give up pretending
something's there when there isn’t.

 

[Zaha Torte]

And your opinion on that matter is worth the same amount as anyone else's on the world wide web: jack.

I disagree entirely.

Any opinion that is based on something is worth more than an opinion that is based on nothing.

Again: I am not required to accept them as factual by the Bible, by the Anglican Church of which I grew up in, nor by the wider Protestant faith or even the Christian faith in general. That a minority but vocal group of American Christians and pseudo-Christians say otherwise is not something I need to behold myself to. If you want a bias, there it is.

I never said that you had to do anything - not even explain your bias.

Yet - your bad logic is something you need to deal with for your own sake.

To you - what makes the story of Jacob and the goats allegory and the Resurrection literal?

I believe that you not willing to analyze this is doing yourself a disservice.

You don't get to arbitrate and decide anything, and I generally don't go looking to Latter-Day Saints (since I think you said that you personally don't like the Mormon label) for opinions on opinions of religious beliefs.

We are Latter-day Saints - not Mormons. Mormon was a man - a great man - but we follow Christ.

My asking people to use the actual title is not about preference and I appreciate you using it.

I want you to notice - if you ever look back on this conversation - that I did not try to force you to believe any which way about anything.

All I pointed out was that your logic was bad - completely arbitrary - and your lack of a standard is going to bite you.

You also miss out on learning more about God and how He operates by picking and choosing like that.

 

[Astrid]

OK thats fair enough, now show evidence. Are you saying that a culture back then who experienced a major flood would not then have a story to tell of such an event. If other culture made such stories of lesser floods why not these culture.

Uh no. You make wild claims with nothing
to back them.

Enough shriveled brain cells from seeing
such behaviour in action.

im out