A conservative argument for women priests

[RileyG]

Customs vary in different places, and in different parishes. In Australia, our culture is pretty informal generally, and in most parishes I've been in, most parishioners have been on a first name basis with their priests. In some, particularly more high church or catholic places, they use Father and Mother. In the first parish I ministered in, where I was the assistant, there was already a culture of the priest being Father, so he insisted on me being Mother, so that nobody would think I was "less" for being a woman (or the assistant).

Mostly I get Rev. from funeral directors and in the school, where the kids are taught to call me Rev. Firstname.

The title is useful for things like formal and written communication, but in everyday life it's mostly not the done thing. But in other parts of the world it would be very different!

So, if I understand correctly, on a day to day basis, most parishioners simply refer to you as rev [first name]?

 

[RileyG]

Anglicanism covers a broad spectrum of beliefs, from Evangelical (sometimes referred to as "Low Church") through to almost Roman Catholic ("High Church" or "Anglo-Catholic"). Low church people don't use terms like "priest" and "Father", whereas High Church people do.

It’s my understanding regardless of low church vs high church, the presiding clergy is still a priest.

Without rambling on or going off topic, in Catholicism at least, a priest is first ordained a deacon, then a priest. If he becomes a bishop, he is consecrated as a bishop. If he becomes the Pope, he’s the head bishop of the RCC. A priest will always be a deacon and priest, just like a bishop is always a deacon, priest, and bishop.

I have no idea if our friend @Paidiske was first ordained a deacon before she was ordained a priest.

I will let her answer.

 

[RileyG]

Well, all I can say is that none of the low church Anglicans I have ever known talks/talked about "priests" in their churches. Maybe some do.

Were you raised in the Church of England?

 

[Paidiske]

So, if I understand correctly, on a day to day basis, most parishioners simply refer to you as rev [first name]?

Mostly just firstname.

It’s my understanding regardless of low church vs high church, the presiding clergy is still a priest.

That is true, but @David Lamb is correct that many low church people avoid that terminology. Minister or pastor are used a lot in those parishes, even though yes, the person is technically a priest.

Without rambling on or going off topic, in Catholicism at least, a priest is first ordained a deacon, then a priest. ...A priest will always be a deacon and priest, just like a bishop is always a deacon, priest, and bishop.
I have no idea if our friend @Paidiske was first ordained a deacon before she was ordained a priest.

This is our custom also. I was ordained a deacon in February and a priest in November of the year of my ordination.

 

[David Lamb]

Were you raised in the Church of England?

Yes, as a baby I was Christened. Then as a child I was sent to Sunday School, sang in the church choir, and much more. During all those years in an Anglican church, nobody ever told me about the need to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ or to repent of my sins. I heard such things from a friend in my late teens, and when by God's grace I believed them, I found a church where the preaching was fully based on the bible.

 

[Paidiske]

During all those years in an Anglican church, nobody ever told me about the need to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ or to repent of my sins.

Did nobody teach you to pray the Lord's prayer? If so, what did you think it meant to be forgiven of your sins?

 

[David Lamb]

Did nobody teach you to pray the Lord's prayer? If so, what did you think it meant to be forgiven of your sins?

Nobody (as far as I can remember) actually taught me the Lord's Prayer. I learned it through repetition, but that's the point - because nobody told me what it all meant, I just repeated the words without thinking, to my shame/

 

[Paidiske]

Nobody (as far as I can remember) actually taught me the Lord's Prayer. I learned it through repetition, but that's the point - because nobody told me what it all meant, I just repeated the words without thinking, to my shame/

Sounds like your parish had terrible children's ministry. That would not be the norm, in my experience.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

Jesus said that he came that we might have life to the full. Limiting opportunities and education is the exact opposite of that. Working to overcome those limitations therefore aligns with Christ's purpose and reign. If it's revolutionary, it's the revolution of the Kingdom of God.

Isaiah says (emphasis mine):

"Wash yourselves; make yourselves clean;
remove the evil of your doings
from before my eyes;
cease to do evil,
learn to do good;
seek justice,
rescue the oppressed,
defend the orphan,
plead for the widow."

And Jeremiah says:

"Execute justice in the morning,
and deliver from the hand of the oppressor
anyone who has been robbed,
or else my wrath will go forth like fire,
and burn, with no one to quench it,
because of your evil doings."

The song of Judith rejoices:

"Then my oppressed people shouted;
my weak people cried out, and the enemy trembled;
they lifted up their voices, and the enemy were turned back."

Ecclesiasticus:

"Rescue the oppressed from the oppressor;
and do not be hesitant in giving a verdict."

And in the New Testament, Luke has Jesus reading Isaiah:

"The Spirit of the Lord is upon me,
because he has anointed me
to bring good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim release to the captives
and recovery of sight to the blind,
to let the oppressed go free,
to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favour."

And that is just looking for the exact word oppression, before looking at the wider theme of justice.

I reject the idea that we have had a "matriarchal revolution." However, I would argue that feminism as a movement has done more good for the people caught in the structures it has sought to change, than many more violent revolutions. Because patriarchy actually isn't really healthy for anyone, even men.

I'd be fascinated to know exactly how you define femininity, and if it is reflective of full humanity.

Amazing how equality can feel like being dominated, when you're used to entitlement and power.

Systematically limiting and disempowering women can hardly be considered loving them.

Well, that's a fascinating peek into dystopian terror. If the world is burning down, it is not doing so more than at other times in history. But I'm not blaming men, as a group, for the world's problems.

If we want to look at the world's problems, we might note that the leading cause of death worldwide is ischaemic heart disease, contributed to by poor diet, air pollution, and smoking. Those are issues we could tackle through economic and policy means, if we had the will, but I'm not particularly blaming men, or patriarchy, for them.

It's so terrible that now women can be educated, and be employed, can hold property in their own right, can leave an abusive husband, can have a say in their own government. Appalling. I don't know why we ever thought it would be good for women to be treated as better than property.

I would argue that the pursuit of justice is absolutely part of loving the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength; and loving your neighbour as yourself. How can you say you love God, and yet allow the degradation of God's image-bearer to continue unchallenged?

The word "feminism" itself is so new as to be anachronistic in much of church history, it's true. But the basic principles - that God created humankind, male and female, in God's image; and that Christ has redeemed humankind, male and female, into full participation in the Kingdom of God - are not new at all.

Once again, by your own words, it is not oppression if your situation is entered into willingly. You misunderstand God’s call to help the oppressed with fostering a revolutionary spirit. That is not what God called anyone to do, despite the many who have twisted scripture to say He does. Liberation theology has proven to be false both practically and intellectually.
The word of God calls us to take up our cross and follow Jesus, not rise up like Cain and slay those we think more privileged than us. 1 Corinthians 7 tells us how to walk with God

17 But as the Lord hath distributed to every one, as God hath called every one, so let him walk: and so in all churches I teach [1 Corinthians 7:17] 18 Is any man called, being circumcised? let him not procure uncircumcision. Is any man called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised. 19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing: but the observance of the commandments of God. 20 Let every man abide in the same calling in which he was called.

21 Wast thou called, being a bondman? care not for it; but if thou mayest be made free, use it rather. 22 For he that is called in the Lord, being a bondman, is the freeman of the Lord. Likewise he that is called, being free, is the bondman of Christ. 23 You are bought with a price; be not made the bondslaves of men. 24 Brethren, let every man, wherein he was called, therein abide with God.


You reject this scripture or else say it is not fair because you were called to follow Christ while being a woman, yet reject that calling and seek to walk as a man. If any woman could have been a priest, it would have been Our Blessed Mother. She was as right there in the room when the Holy Spirit came as tongues of fire. She humbled herself and accepted humility. The ecclesial authority belonged to Peter, and the Apostles

That was her path on Earth and she walked it willingly in perfect humility. She is an example to all women. God fulfills His promises. Whoever humbles themselves will be exalted. She was most humble on earth, but in heaven she is most exalted. As Psalm 45 (44 Douay Rhiems) says, she now is at the right hand of Christ, queen of heaven and earth.

The fruits of women throwing off their calling as women? That is easy to calculate, over 60,000,000 dead babies, countless mutilated and poisoned women throwing away potential motherhood for the pure pleasure of sex, innumerable abandoned children that have no mommy because she is busy at work. First we had women say they can be men or act like them, now we have come to the point where men say they are women and try to act like them, but can never be. Is any of this of God?

Feminism says women are equal to men. The fruits of the 21st century shows in plain sight that is not true.

Women are not supposed to be fathers, they are to be mothers or virgins in this world. There is no other path no matter how you think you are called

 

[Paidiske]

Once again, by your own words, it is not oppression if your situation is entered into willingly.

I have no idea what you mean by this.

You misunderstand God’s call to help the oppressed with fostering a revolutionary spirit.

Put it this way; my church understands that part of the mission of God is to "transform unjust structures of society" to better reflect the reign of God. That is what I am arguing for.

You reject this scripture or else say it is not fair because you were called to follow Christ while being a woman, yet reject that calling and seek to walk as a man.

Nonsense. I am not seeking to be a man, or to act as a man. I am seeking to be faithful to God's call on my life, as a woman.

Feminism says women are equal to men. The fruits of the 21st century shows in plain sight that is not true.

Making such a blatantly sexist statement means I can't read anything you say as having any credibility or substance. It all just becomes justification for demeaning and subjugating women.

Women are not supposed to be fathers, they are to be mothers or virgins in this world. There is no other path no matter how you think you are called

And I'm a mother. That's just not all I am. Astonishing, isn't it, that just like men, women can be parents while also being other things?

 

[Adventist Heretic]

Where have I said you are not Christian? You are merely incorrect in some teachings and refuse to speak
I am not asking you to believe me. There is 2000 years of history and the Apostolic teaching to reference.

It’s ironic that what you accuse me of being is what you are, some guy on the internet. You claim to use scripture, but what you actually do is your interpretation of scripture. Who gives you the authority to interpret that scripture?

In fact your interpretation was unheard of until the mid 1800s. A person reading scripture on its own does not come to the conclusions that the SDA proposes. If it did, why did it take over 1800 years to figure it out?

It seems like your position is that God makes mistakes that constantly need to be corrected by His creation.

He created some people but they didn’t work out, so they will just be annihilated. Did He not know what He was doing before He created them?
Jesus promised He would build His Church, but everything falls apart until some lady has visions 1800 years after Pentecost to set things right. Can’t God keep it together? Do you rejoice at the failure of His promises?


It’s ironic that you claim the Sabbath, because Sabbath theology proposes that God creates then rests. He does not create then destroy and play the endless do over game. I can see that you have not thought your position through

Thankfully God and the Apostles have. We realize that human intellect is imperfect and hearts are hard. Satan and his demons are smarter than us and can deceive humans

In her wisdom, the Catholic Church recognizes all baptisms as valid if performed with the proper form, matter and intention. I take it that you were baptized in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit with water for the forgiveness of sins? Then you are a child of God.

If you refuse to learn here, you will be taught in the world to come. The Catholic Church is the bride of Christ as well as His body. You speak against her you speak against Christ.

Jesus understands and still has mercy on you, because you do not know what you are doing. He says any one that blasphemes the Son of Man will be forgiven. If you don’t recognize Jesus and speak ill of Him, He understands your ignorance

What won’t be forgiven is blaspheme of the Holy Spirit, which is making Satan equal to God, which is what the Jewish leaders did when they said Jesus used the power of Satan to cast out demons.

Stay true to your position of repentance and humility toward God, and you will be forgiven. You will pass through Purgatory to prepare for heaven, but don’t worry, you don’t have to believe in Purgatory to wind up there.
Purgatory’s fires are equal in intensity to hell, but they are the flames of love, not despair.

You have the opportunity to humble yourself and repent while you are here, and it will lessen your pain in the next life. If your heart stays hard it will soften later. Want to know what it feels like? Recall what it feels like to love someone and them not love you back, then imagine yourself to be the one that rejected someone who loved them and repented, but it was too late, your love had moved on. That is the agony you feel in Purgatory

you don't know what I believe. because I have not talked about it. Since I don't believe in that lady you are completely off base and out of line,. You are just spout ignorance and trying to manipulate and guilt trip. please stop.

 

[Paidiske]

You seek to make changes to God’s order to better reflect the reign of yourself.


Male and female created he them. Men and women are not the same, they are different.

Not at all. God's order does not make women of less dignity and agency than men. Male and female are both created in the image of God.

To say that men and women are not equal is a matter of substance not status. If I see a man, I know he is not a woman. If I see a woman, I know she is not a man. They are not equal, they are different. If they are equal they cannot be different. If they are different, they cannot be equal.

And yet in their humanity, which is far more important than distinctions of reproductive biology, they are equally human.

Every so called women’s issue in US and world politics seeks to eliminate the feminine in favor of the masculine.

And what was your definition of femininity, again? I'm still wondering if it's reflective of full humanity.

Abortion? Kills children destroys motherhood. Analysis: destroys feminine promotes masculine

Why are we seeing killing as inherently masculine, rather than inherently sinful?

Mothers working outside the home? Isolates children from their mothers and thereby alienating them from their parents, disrupting the mother child bond preventing emotional attachment. Children that cry are told to suck it up, mommy has to work

What complete nonsense.

Then we come to transgender.

This is a "women's issue" because....?

You want to promote females by killing women and children and tell me that God told you to do it ?

Again, complete nonsense. I am not here advocating for abortion. Or anything like that. I'm here advocating for education, employment, full participation in social life and in the church. There's nothing there about killing anyone.

Feminists are not women

Quite ridiculous. But I agree with @Adventist Heretic that your posts are becoming so belligerent as to be likely to be seen as flaming and goading under CF's rules.

 

[Adventist Heretic]

Quite ridiculous. But I agree with @Adventist Heretic that your posts are becoming so belligerent as to be likely to be seen as flaming and goading under CF's rules.

Report him

 

[David Lamb]

Sounds like your parish had terrible children's ministry. That would not be the norm, in my experience.

Probably, but of course as a child, I had nothing to compare it with.

 

[Mountainmike]

Yes, as a baby I was Christened. Then as a child I was sent to Sunday School, sang in the church choir, and much more. During all those years in an Anglican church, nobody ever told me about the need to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ or to repent of my sins. I heard such things from a friend in my late teens, and when by God's grace I believed them, I found a church where the preaching was fully based on the bible.

As ex Anglican I find that hard to believe if you were paying attention!

The nicene creed was a part But even the most popular hymns and psalms , always an Anglican thing , take “ there is a green hill” state it in so many ways !

There will not have been these strange evangelocal quasi sacraments like “ ask8ng Jesus into your life , but they are not biblical either! Baptismal regeneration is the way in, stated since earliest times. The story of John the Baptist was repent!

I moved on because of the eucharist, but not because of lack of essential credo!

 

[Adventist Heretic]

If it’s too much for you to discuss and defend your faith, then you should take time away from CF.

my faith is not what you think it is.

We get all Christian view points here, not just SDA. You can’t call other Christians cult members unless they go against the creed, which was written against Arianism.

I have been here for almost 20 years. I have talked about my issues openly. Anybody who knows me, which you don't, no I am not a traditional SDA, hence the Adventist Heritic, so go troll someone where else. You don't know what you are talking about.

Arians deny that Jesus is God.

I am not an Arian

Examples are the Jehovahs witnesses and Mormons. Like the Jehovahs witnesses, SDA says that Jesus is the Archangel Michael, but SDA is not Arian. They merely claim that God has appeared as an angel in other parts of scripture. I disagree with that, but I do not call you a cult member, merely mistaken.

since that is not what they believe and not what I believe you are way out of bounds.

Don’t close your mind, but study to show yourself approved, rightly dividing the word of truth

show some integrity and post on the topic, and stop trolling & slandering people.

 

[FreeinChrist]

ADVISOR HAT


This thread is closed for staff review. The comments being made are getting too personal, attack the faith of others, or fall into disruptive behavior. ​

 

[dogs4thewin]

Mod hat on

Thos thread has had a clean due to several unacceptable posts

Mod hat off