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twisted imminency doctrine

RandyPNW

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I'm not hostile to Pretribbers--Dispensationalism has some powerful points. I too believe that God will save Israel. I too am a Futurist.

But until 1830 there was no real Pretrib School in the Christian Church. And there is a reason for that. There was no Pretrib Teaching in the Bible, and nobody saw it for many hundreds of years!

Pretribbers read back into the Bible what was never there. They see the exhortation to "always be ready" as a theology of Imminence.

But it was never meant to be taken that way. We are always to be ready, morally and spiritually, because Christians are always to live right. There is nothing there about "Christ can come today."

And so, Pretribbers, believing "being ready" meant that Christ can come "at any time," began to project back into history the false notion that the Bible teaches a Pretrib Rapture.

It was never taught though because it simply wasn't in the Scriptures. Darby invented it.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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I'm not hostile to Pretribbers--Dispensationalism has some powerful points. I too believe that God will save Israel. I too am a Futurist.

But until 1830 there was no real Pretrib School in the Christian Church. And there is a reason for that. There was no Pretrib Teaching in the Bible, and nobody saw it for many hundreds of years!

Pretribbers read back into the Bible what was never there. They see the exhortation to "always be ready" as a theology of Imminence.

But it was never meant to be taken that way. We are always to be ready, morally and spiritually, because Christians are always to live right. There is nothing there about "Christ can come today."

And so, Pretribbers, believing "being ready" meant that Christ can come "at any time," began to project back into history the false notion that the Bible teaches a Pretrib Rapture.

It was never taught though because it simply wasn't in the Scriptures. Darby invented it.
Disagree with your first line, but agree with everything else. There are pretribbers who talk about the need to watch and they think it only has to do with watching for Jesus to appear in the sky. But, when scripture says to watch it's talking about watching out that we are not deceived and watching what's going on in the world to see the signs that would suggest that His coming is near. There's no scripture which says that there was nothing that had to happen before the rapture. Paul said there would be a mass falling away from the faith and revealing of the man of sin first before Christ's coming and our being gathered to Him (2 Thess 2:1-3). So, we watch for signs like those and the ones Jesus mentioned in the Olivet Discourse. The idea that He always could just come to gather us to Himself at any time is just not there in scripture.
 
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RandyPNW

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Disagree with your first line, but agree with everything else. There are pretribbers who talk about the need to watch and they think it only has to do with watching for Jesus to appear in the sky. But, when scripture says to watch it's talking about watching out that we are not deceived and watching what's going on in the world to see the signs that would suggest that His coming is near. There's no scripture which says that there was nothing that had to happen before the rapture. Paul said there would be a mass falling away from the faith and revealing of the man of sin first before Christ's coming and our being gathered to Him (2 Thess 2:1-3). So, we watch for signs like those and the ones Jesus mentioned in the Olivet Discourse. The idea that He always could just come to gather us to Himself at any time is just not there in scripture.
Good point! Our alertness, our watchfulness, is coupled together with our need to watch out for deceivers, for those who would lead us down the garden path to error, to Hedonism, to cults, to selfish interests.

Watching for Christ's Coming means to be aware of his judicial concerns, to know that he will bring the sinful world under judgment, and that he is coming to deliver us from evil, and not approve of our wrong-doings. Let us watch for the real Christ, and not for the weak and false imitations of him provided by the Nominal Church and the world.

Thank you!
 
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JulieB67

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It was never taught though because it simply wasn't in the Scriptures. Darby invented it.
True
But, when scripture says to watch it's talking about watching out that we are not deceived and watching what's going on in the world to see the signs that would suggest that His coming is near.
Exactly. If we are to be watchmen, what are the pretribbers watching ? It makes no sense.
. The idea that He always could just come to gather us to Himself at any time is just not there in scripture.
True
 
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Marilyn C

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Exactly. If we are to be watchmen, what are the pretribbers watching ? It makes no sense.

True
Hi Julie,

I believe God said -

`...exhorting one another and so much the more as you SEE the Day approaching.` (Heb. 10: 25)

And that `Day` is the Day of the LORD (God Almighty in judgment). It is mentioned often in the Old Testament. One Prophet especially tells us WHEN and WHERE that will happen.

`Blow a trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in My holy mountain! Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble; for the Day of the LORD is coming, for it is at hand.

A Day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness, like the morning clouds spread over the mountains, a people come, great and strong, the like of whom has never been; nor will there ever be such after them, even for many successive generations.` (Joel 2: 1 & 2)

`But I will remove far from you the northern army, and will drive him away into a barren and desolate land, with his face toward the eastern sea and his back to ward the western sea; his stench will come up, and his foul odor will rise, because he has done monstrous things.` (Joel 2: 20)


So, we read of this great northern army coming down to the mountains of Israel. (Heb. tsaphon, northern, meaning only used for the northern quarter of the earth). Thus, it will take time for this great army (Russian Federation, Iran and other) to come down. We will SEE this on the media and know it is just before the Day of the LORD.

And believers are NOT in that time.

`But you brethren, are NOT in darkness that this Day (of the LORD) should overtake you as a thief. You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are NOT of the night nor of darkness.` (1 Thess. 5: 4 & 5)
 
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RandyPNW

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Hi Julie,

I believe God said -

`...exhorting one another and so much the more as you SEE the Day approaching.` (Heb. 10: 25)

And that `Day` is the Day of the LORD (God Almighty in judgment). It is mentioned often in the Old Testament. One Prophet especially tells us WHEN and WHERE that will happen.

`Blow a trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in My holy mountain! Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble; for the Day of the LORD is coming, for it is at hand.

A Day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness, like the morning clouds spread over the mountains, a people come, great and strong, the like of whom has never been; nor will there ever be such after them, even for many successive generations.` (Joel 2: 1 & 2)

`But I will remove far from you the northern army, and will drive him away into a barren and desolate land, with his face toward the eastern sea and his back to ward the western sea; his stench will come up, and his foul odor will rise, because he has done monstrous things.` (Joel 2: 20)


So, we read of this great northern army coming down to the mountains of Israel. (Heb. tsaphon, northern, meaning only used for the northern quarter of the earth). Thus, it will take time for this great army (Russian Federation, Iran and other) to come down. We will SEE this on the media and know it is just before the Day of the LORD.

And believers are NOT in that time.

`But you brethren, are NOT in darkness that this Day (of the LORD) should overtake you as a thief. You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are NOT of the night nor of darkness.` (1 Thess. 5: 4 & 5)
But 1 Thes 5.4-5 does not say that believers are not in that time. It actually indicates that while we are in that time, our eyes are wide open. It is unbelievers who are unprepared and not watching, who will be taken as by a thief in the night. My opinion only...
 
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JulieB67

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I believe God said -

`...exhorting one another and so much the more as you SEE the Day approaching.` (Heb. 10: 25)
Believers on watch will see the signs that Christ laid out and know when the day is approaching. Pretribbers will not watch for the signs and not know the day is approaching because they believe Christ could return at any time. That imo puts them in danger of falling away.

And believers are NOT in that time.

But you brethren, are NOT in darkness that this Day (of the LORD) should overtake you as a thief. You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are NOT of the night nor of darkness.` (1 Thess. 5: 4 & 5)
It doesn't state they won't be here, it just states the day will not overtake them as a thief. If you read the next couple of verses we are to be watchman.

I Thessalonians 5:5 "Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness."

I Thessalonians 5:6 "Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober."


Paul is a second witness to Christ on the subject and both are talking to Christians (the disciples privately) and of course Paul to the Thessalonians, etc

Matthew 24:42 "Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come."

Matthew 24:43 "But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up."


No one knows the day or the hour but we are to watch for the signs he just laid out so we can watch and not let the day overtake us as a thief.



Matthew 24:3 "And as He sat upon the mount of Olives the disciples came unto Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when shall these things be and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"

It states "thy coming" which is no different than this


I Thessalonians 4:15 "For we say unto you, by the word of our Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent in no wise them which are asleep."

The only difference is the original subject of 1st These 4:13 is people worrying about their passed away loved ones. It's not about a pretrib rapture and was never taught to be. Paul was telling them what would happen with them and trying to comfort them with his words.

We have to take things in complete context.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Hi Julie,

I believe God said -

`...exhorting one another and so much the more as you SEE the Day approaching.` (Heb. 10: 25)

And that `Day` is the Day of the LORD (God Almighty in judgment). It is mentioned often in the Old Testament. One Prophet especially tells us WHEN and WHERE that will happen.

`Blow a trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in My holy mountain! Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble; for the Day of the LORD is coming, for it is at hand.

A Day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness, like the morning clouds spread over the mountains, a people come, great and strong, the like of whom has never been; nor will there ever be such after them, even for many successive generations.` (Joel 2: 1 & 2)

`But I will remove far from you the northern army, and will drive him away into a barren and desolate land, with his face toward the eastern sea and his back to ward the western sea; his stench will come up, and his foul odor will rise, because he has done monstrous things.` (Joel 2: 20)


So, we read of this great northern army coming down to the mountains of Israel. (Heb. tsaphon, northern, meaning only used for the northern quarter of the earth). Thus, it will take time for this great army (Russian Federation, Iran and other) to come down. We will SEE this on the media and know it is just before the Day of the LORD.

And believers are NOT in that time.

`But you brethren, are NOT in darkness that this Day (of the LORD) should overtake you as a thief. You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are NOT of the night nor of darkness.` (1 Thess. 5: 4 & 5)
Why do you think that it's talking about a period of time? Paul described what will happeon the day of the Lord as "sudden destruction" from which those who are in darkness "shall not escape". What is sudden about this period of time that you think will happen at that point?

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

What will cause this "sudden destruction" from which "they shall not escape" on the day of the Lord that will come as a thief in the night? Peter tells us.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Scripture teaches that unexpected, sudden destruction by fire on the entire earth will occur when the day of the Lord arrives. The idea that this is talking about any kind of time period beyond a very short amount of time is just not there at all.
 
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Marilyn C

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Why do you think that it's talking about a period of time? Paul described what will happeon the day of the Lord as "sudden destruction" from which those who are in darkness "shall not escape". What is sudden about this period of time that you think will happen at that point?

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

What will cause this "sudden destruction" from which "they shall not escape" on the day of the Lord that will come as a thief in the night? Peter tells us.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Scripture teaches that unexpected, sudden destruction by fire on the entire earth will occur when the day of the Lord arrives. The idea that this is talking about any kind of time period beyond a very short amount of time is just not there at all.
Hi SJ,

That is a fair question. The Hebrew and Greek for `Day` means a period of time and a specific day. Thus, it is the context that tells us. Looking at the references in the Old Testament we see that the `Day of the LORD, ` (God Almighty in judgment), refers to a period of time of God`s wrath, anger, vengeance. (Zeph. 1: 14 - 18, Dan. 12: 1, Joel 2: 2, Isa. 26: 21 Matt. 24: 21) The specific Day is shown in Rev. 6: 15 - 17)
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Hi SJ,

That is a fair question. The Hebrew and Greek for `Day` means a period of time and a specific day. Thus, it is the context that tells us. Looking at the references in the Old Testament we see that the `Day of the LORD, ` (God Almighty in judgment), refers to a period of time of God`s wrath, anger, vengeance. (Zeph. 1: 14 - 18, Dan. 12: 1, Joel 2: 2, Isa. 26: 21 Matt. 24: 21) The specific Day is shown in Rev. 6: 15 - 17)
Why use the OT to interpret the NT instead of the other way around? Do these passages give the impression that they are referring to a period of time? How can "sudden destruction" refer to a period of time?

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

What will cause this "sudden destruction" from which "they shall not escape" on the day of the Lord that will come as a thief in the night? Peter tells us.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
 
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Fisherking

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But until 1830 there was no real Pretrib School in the Christian Church. And there is a reason for that. There was no Pretrib Teaching in the Bible, and nobody saw it for many hundreds of years!
This here is just a flat out untruth brother Randy, its spin that keeps getting repeated by you guys even when its been proven an untruth over and over. I have heard/read preachers/teachers name time and again churches in every period that understood and taught the pre trib. doctrine, with document, printed evidence and of course Paul was the author not Darby. Paul called it a Mystery (secret by God's silence heretofore) in that it was never meant as a doctrine for the Jewish/Israeli state, else it would have been given unto them, thus Paul denoting it as a SECRET HERETOFORE or a Mystery (Muo). It's not now a secret rapture, Paul taught it, it was a secret or mystery because it was never meant for Israel (Wheat) who will grow together with the tares (world) until the very end (Jesus 2nd coming...thus the 144,000 are merely a code for ALL Israel who repent and we now its 1/3 (Zech. 13:8-9) or 5 million Jews who repent.

Just because you guys keep repeating this doesn't make it a factoid.

Pretribbers read back into the Bible what was never there. They see the exhortation to "always be ready" as a theology of Imminence.

But it was never meant to be taken that way. We are always to be ready, morally and spiritually, because Christians are always to live right. There is nothing there about "Christ can come today."
As you point out, you have to throw in how "its not suppose to be taken" in order to justify your position. Out of the 10 (Completeness) virgins brides only 5 make the wedding call, Jesus over and over tells us the wedding is in the fathers house (Heaven) as we see in Rev. 19. We see in Matt. 24:36-51 that the exact same ratio (50%) is given, ONE is TAKEN and ONE is LEFT. So, again, only 50 percent of the church will be taken to this marriage and the other 5 will have the doors shut unto them.

And so, Pretribbers, believing "being ready" meant that Christ can come "at any time," began to project back into history the false notion that the Bible teaches a Pretrib Rapture.

It was never taught though because it simply wasn't in the Scriptures. Darby invented it.
To me, anyone who can not see the pre trib. rapture is just not very good on eschatology and should let others teach about end times. Its not even hard to see.
 
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As you point out, you have to throw in how "its not suppose to be taken" in order to justify your position. Out of the 10 (Completeness) virgins brides only 5 make the wedding call, Jesus over and over tells us the wedding is in the fathers house (Heaven) as we see in Rev. 19.
It never says that the wedding takes place in heaven.

We see in Matt. 24:36-51 that the exact same ratio (50%) is given, ONE is TAKEN and ONE is LEFT. So, again, only 50 percent of the church will be taken to this marriage and the other 5 will have the doors shut unto them.
Can you clarify what you're saying here? Are you suggesting that you believe only half of those who are saved will be taken up to meet Christ in the air when He comes?

To me, anyone who can not see the pre trib. rapture is just not very good on eschatology and should let others teach about end times. Its not even hard to see.
Present a clear, coherent argument to me that supports pre-trib. So far, after many years of trying to get pretribs to do so, no one ever has. Maybe you can be the first. It doesn't have to be real long. Just make it a convincing, coherent argument that can easily be followed. From what I've seen to this point, pretrib is based on many assumptions and speculations, but not on any clear scripture that shows a pre-trib rapture.
 
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RandyPNW

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This here is just a flat out untruth brother Randy, its spin that keeps getting repeated by you guys even when its been proven an untruth over and over. I have heard/read preachers/teachers name time and again churches in every period that understood and taught the pre trib. doctrine, with document, printed evidence and of course Paul was the author not Darby. Paul called it a Mystery (secret by God's silence heretofore) in that it was never meant as a doctrine for the Jewish/Israeli state, else it would have been given unto them, thus Paul denoting it as a SECRET HERETOFORE or a Mystery (Muo). It's not now a secret rapture, Paul taught it, it was a secret or mystery because it was never meant for Israel (Wheat) who will grow together with the tares (world) until the very end (Jesus 2nd coming...thus the 144,000 are merely a code for ALL Israel who repent and we now its 1/3 (Zech. 13:8-9) or 5 million Jews who repent.

Just because you guys keep repeating this doesn't make it a factoid.


As you point out, you have to throw in how "its not suppose to be taken" in order to justify your position. Out of the 10 (Completeness) virgins brides only 5 make the wedding call, Jesus over and over tells us the wedding is in the fathers house (Heaven) as we see in Rev. 19. We see in Matt. 24:36-51 that the exact same ratio (50%) is given, ONE is TAKEN and ONE is LEFT. So, again, only 50 percent of the church will be taken to this marriage and the other 5 will have the doors shut unto them.


To me, anyone who can not see the pre trib. rapture is just not very good on eschatology and should let others teach about end times. Its not even hard to see.
You're of course entitled to your opinion. But there is no "school of Pretribulationism" in the Early Church, and Paul did not teach that the Church will be Raptured before the Tribulation in his letters. You are *interpreting* what is said as Pretribulationism, but it is not taught *as a theology," or as an *eschatological system.*

On the other hand, 2 Thes 2 positively and explicitly teaches that before Christ can come back for the Church the Antichrist must be revealed so that he can work his evil and be destroyed *when Christ comes back for his Church.* You will never be able to get around this, because it is God's Word.
 
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RandyPNW

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....Paul was the author not Darby. Paul called it a Mystery (secret by God's silence heretofore) in that it was never meant as a doctrine for the Jewish/Israeli state, else it would have been given unto them, thus Paul denoting it as a SECRET HERETOFORE or a Mystery (Muo). It's not now a secret rapture, Paul taught it, it was a secret or mystery because it was never meant for Israel...
Dispensationalism divides Israel and other nations up unnaturally. There is, of course, different timelines of judgment and evangelism for each nation.

But the same system of Salvation equally applies to all nations in the present age. This is the Day of Salvation. It continues to be the means of salvation for Jewish individuals, even though the nation of Israel may experience its National Salvation, or deliverance from the nations, in the next age.

So there was no "secret" being kept from Israel. Jesus came to be revealed to Israel, even though his revelation came to be a revelation of judgment. "You will know that I am the Lord" when in 70 AD your nation is defeated and cast into the nations. There was no "secret" here!

But you use the word "secret" as if it involves new unfounded information, lacking any means of substantiation or confirmation? Messiah was in effect a "mystery" himself before he came, though there was plenty of substantiation or confirming information indicating that he was coming.

There was plenty of information to draw upon in identifying Jesus as Messiah, even though much of the preliminary information seemed distorted and confusing to Israel in her fallen spiritual state. They had enough information to indict them should they refuse to accept that information.

There was plenty in the OT Bible to indicate that both Israel and the nations of faith would be restored to God after the Fall of Adam. We see that in Gen 12-17, the promises made to Abraham. They would in effect be restored to the Tree of Life, being rescued from waywardness and sin to be redeemed, forgiven, and restored to life eternal.

Thus, both Christ and the Rapture to Immortality was somewhat obscured in the OT, when the record of sin still prevented final redemption. But they clearly had precedent for believing in them from OT Prophecy.

So you are using "mystery" in a wrong way, denying the need for precedent and substantiation. There is nothing God has not shared with His servants the Prophets, so that we would benefit from them and know what to expect.

The Rapure to Immortality is not a "mystery" because it was a new eschatological system previously unknown and without any precedent for believing in it. It was as old as God's promise to Adam and Eve that they would have a son who defeats the Serpent, apparently restoring them to the Tree of Life. The only thing "mysterious" about this in the OT Scriptures was the fact that Christ hadn't accomplished that yet.
 
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JulieB67

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and of course Paul was the author not Darby
Paul was not the author of the pretrib rapture. If you're suggesting 1st Thes 4 - we see starting with verse 13 the subject is people worrying about their passed away loved ones and he goes on to explain what happens with them and he ends by telling them to comfort themselves with these words which are about their loved ones, not a pretrib rapture event.
A pretrib rapture was not even the subject and if one reads into chapter 5 one would see that.
So, again, only 50 percent of the church will be taken to this marriage and the other 5 will have the doors shut unto them.
Only the Greek word for "taken" does not mean remove from the earth as utilized in this verse.

Look up all of the Greek words for taken and see how their utilized in every verse.

Paul called it a Mystery
The mystery is that all are "changed at the last trump" not that anyone is raptured out before that.
 
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Paul was not the author of the pretrib rapture. If you're suggesting 1st Thes 4 - we see starting with verse 13 the subject is people worrying about their passed away loved ones and he goes on to explain what happens with them and he ends by telling them to comfort themselves with these words which are about their loved ones, not a pretrib rapture event.
A pretrib rapture was not even the subject and if one reads into chapter 5 one would see that.
Of course it is/was the subject, you just don't understand THE TIMING, that's on you, not Paul, sister. This is a non sequitur type of circular argument, so IF the Rapture is Pre Trib. then that was about the Pre Trib. Rapture wasn't it sister? See why its a nonsensible non sequitur ? The Rapture is pre trib, and that is why we are all raised at the exact same time but Paul needed to assure them so he says the dead are raised first, A MILI SECOND before those of us who are alive are transformed (CHANGED) from human bodies to Spirit Men, so we can go be with the Lord because no human flesh can enter heaven.

I have been called unto Prophecy 40 years, been studying it for 40 years, I handle the deep stuff like knowing where the AC is born, (Greece) knowing what his political base is (E.U.), knowing what his Bloodline is (Old Assyria) and then I combine them all as one should to know he has to be an Old Assyrian (Turk/Iraqi of today) who is born in Greece and comes to power in the E.U. I understand the 1290 and 1335, which is the key to solving all the End Time TIMING issues, and you want to try and teach me about the timing of the Rapture which as far simpler in nature. That's a no go sister. When one can't get get the timing of the rapture down, they started on the wrong path and thus will never understand eschatology in full.

Only the Greek word for "taken" does not mean remove from the earth as utilized in this verse.

Look up all of the Greek words for taken and see how their utilized in every verse.
Sure, just like Anti-Christ doesn't have to mean AGAINST right? As some would say, which is just not factual. People always do these type of things to try and twist a meaning into existence. Some people think the Jews actually ACCEPT the AC as their "Messiah" all because they do not understand John 5:43 was SPECIFICALLY only a prophesy about the Pharisees, go read it, he tells them they are devils, not of God, then says you will not accept me who was sent from the Father, but "ANOTHER" you (Pharisees) will accept [who was not sent by the Father].

So, many people who do not understand prophesy, and thus wrongly take this scripture, and assume the End Time Jews accept the AC, a Gentile, as their Messiah, OR some go one better, they then say the AC has to be a Jew because at least they understand the Jews would never accept a Gentile Messianic figure.

This is how people go down wrong paths, they get OFF-TRACKED at the start of an issue. Jesus was talking about the Pharisees rejecting him, knowing they were looking for the Political Lion Messiah, a fighter, who would be King and lead them to a VICTORY over the Fourth Beast. But what they failed to understand was there was TWO ADVENTS, the Suffering Lamb Servant and the Conquering Lion King. Thus Jesus foretold them all, that the temple would be destroyed, and that Rome would sack them, and in so doing the Pharisees would get desperate and seek out Messianic type political leaders (they never assumed the Messiah was the Son of God) and they did this in like 66-70 AD hoping to find THE CHOSEN ONE, the Messiah, so they put forth a few men, but of course Jesus had foretold this, and thus it was fulfilled in the 70 AD events.

ONE TAKEN means taken and ONE LEFT means they are left on earth. It's simple stuff sister.

The Greek word for Mystery = Muterion which derives from Muo (to shut the mouth)

#3466 μυστήριον musterion {moos-tay'-ree-on}

from a derivative of muo (to shut the mouth); TDNT - 4:802,615; n n
Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)

1) hidden thing, secret, mystery
1a) generally mysteries, religious secrets, confided only to the
initiated and not to ordinary mortals
1b) a hidden or secret thing, not obvious to the understanding
1c) a hidden purpose or counsel
1c1) secret will
1c1a) of men
1c1b) of God: the secret counsels which govern God in
dealing with the righteous, which are hidden from
ungodly and wicked men but plain to the godly
3) in rabbinic writings, it denotes the mystic or hidden sense:
of an OT saying, of an image or form seen in a vision, of a dream
Thayer's (New Testament Greek-English Lexicon)

From a derivative of μύω [[muo]] (to shut the mouth); a secret or "mystery" (through the idea of silence imposed by initiation into religious rites):—mystery.
—Strong's
(Greek Dictionary of the New Testament)

So, this is only a SECRET because God had heretofore (at the time he told Paul) never revealed this to anyone, he had SHUT His mouth (Muo) on the subject until He decided to reveal it unto Paul, all because Israel is not THE CHURCH or Bride of Christ, they are the Bride of the Father. Some Jews are a part of the Bride of Christ, of course like Paul, Peter and John and todays Messianic Jews, but most will rule with Jesus and be raised at the LAST DAY when Jesus returns, as long as you can not understand the DIFFERENT CALLINGS of the Church and Israel, you will never grasp this. The 70th week, just like the first 69 weeks will have no Church per se, it will have Remnant Church as seen in Rev. 12:16-17.

You must start out on a correct path to get to where you intend to go sister.
 
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JulieB67

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Of course it is/was the subject, you just don't understand THE TIMING, that's on you, not Paul, sister.
I will continue to trust in Christ's and Paul's words on the timing, not man's. If Paul had to write a second letter to clear up the confusion on the timing, again I will trust him. And again, he stated he would show us a mystery, that we shall not all sleep but that we should all be changed "at the last trump". That's not a pretrib rapture.

I used to believe just as you did. I was indoctrinated with a pretrib rapture early on. But about 20 years ago, I finally got into the Word more seriously instead of trusting man's word and saw that it was not biblical. "Thy coming" can only mean singular. We cannot separate thy "coming" into two events, It does not work. We have to let the scriptures speak for themselves.

ONE TAKEN means taken and ONE LEFT means the are left on earth. It's simple stuff sister.
You have added the word "earth" so you are making it simple for your definition.

Again, the Greek is pretty clear that the word "taken" in that verse means -to associate oneself with, receive near, etc.

This verse on the other hand -

Luke 5:35 "But the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken away from them, and then shall they fast in those days."

The word taken does mean removed as in the sense of lifting off.

Greek word 522--to lift off. i.e. remove -take away.

Taken in this verse

Matthew 24:40 "Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken and the other left."

Greek word 3880 -paralambano -e-to receive near/associate oneself with, to learn, receive, take

And remember one verse up Christ tells us it will be exactly as the days of Noah. So we have to take things into context

Matthew 24:39 "And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the son of man be."

We don't want to be the first ones taken. Those are most likely the ones taken in by Satan and his gang. They will receive them and the mark, etc. We want to be the ones left, enduring standing, etc if it should happen in our lifetime. That's the teaching by Christ and then Paul.






, I handle the deep stuff like knowing where the AC is born, (Greece) knowing what his political base is (E.U.), knowing what his Bloodline is (Old Assyria) and then I combine them all as one should to know he has to be an Old Assyrian (Turk/Iraqi of today) who is born in Greece and comes to power in the E.U. I understand the 1290 and 1335, which is the key to solving all the End Time TIMIN issues, and you want t0 try and teach me about the timing of the Rapture which as far simpler. That a no go sister. When one can get get the timing of the rapture down, they started on the wrong path and thus will never understand eschatology in full.
Wow, all I had to do was read and study the entire word and see in Isaiah to know exactly "who" will sit on the throne to the sides of the north proclaiming to be God. The only entity that would be able to fool with his wiles and trickery. Who Paul states is disguised as an "ange of light" You don't don a disguise unless eyes are actually on you. And it's why Paul states that one has to have the full gospel armor on to be able to stand in "the evil day" So again, I'll take Paul's word for it. Do I claim to know everything? No of course not but the Word continues to grow for me. But the timing of the pretrib rapture was pretty simple to see that it was not biblical on my first full read of the Word.

So I'm pretty firm in the path I'm on -we'll see in the end...
 
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Spiritual Jew

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ONE TAKEN means taken and ONE LEFT means the are left on earth. It's simple stuff sister.
But, what happens to those who are left on earth? Scripture teaches that they will all be killed.

The context of one being taken and one left can be seen here:

Luke 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. 27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; 29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. 30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. 31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. 32 Remember Lot's wife. 33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. 34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. 35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

Throughout this passage, Jesus contrasts what will happen to believers what will happen to unbelievers when He comes. He first indicated that on the day that Noah entered into the ark "the flood came, and destroyed them all". It destroyed everyone except Noah and his family. It destroyed everyone left outside of the ark. Then He pointed out how "the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all". All who were left in Sodom were destroyed. Then Jesus said regarding those two events "Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed". That implies that on the day He comes, believers will be spared and we know that happens by way of being changed to have immortal bodies and being caught up to meet Him in the air. And, like in Noah's day and in Lot's day, everyone else will be killed. That's what Jesus meant when He said "Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed".

Notice that Jesus said to remember Lot's wife. She looked back because she cared more about Sodom than the Lord. So, she was killed just like everyone else left in Sodom. Jesus pointed out that anyone who seeks to save his life, which means to keep his life in this world because that means more to them than being with God, they will lose their lives. And anyone who is willing to lose their lives for Christ will be saved and will not experience Christ's wrath on the day He comes. So, the one being taken and one left has to do with those who are saved being taken up to meet Christ in the air and those left on earth being killed as Christ takes vengeance on them (2 Thessalonians 1:7-10). Jesus indicated that the place where that will happen will be wherever dead bodies are that the eagles (vultures) are feeding on, which will be everywhere since His second coming is a global event.

So, there is no time period of tribulation that follows one being taken and one left as those who believe in pre-trib imagine. One being taken and one left relates directly to the day Jesus comes "after the tribulation of those days" that He talked about in the Olivet Discourse. The only tribulation that occurs after we are taken up to be with the Lord is His wrath that will come down on all unbelievers at that time. It will be in the form of "sudden destruction" from which "they shall not escape", as Paul describes it in 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3.
 
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Fisherking

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I will continue to trust in Christ's and Paul's words on the timing, not man's.
No you will not because the Rapture is pre trib. Your assuming things they never said.

If Paul had to write a second letter to clear up the confusion on the timing, again I will trust him. And again, he stated he would show us a mystery, that we shall not all sleep but that we should all be changed "at the last trump". That's not a pretrib rapture.
Of course it is, the Rapture happens when Israel agrees to a 7 year agreement with the AC who will be the President of the E.U. Israel simply joins the E.U. that's all it is. At that point the Pre Trib. Rapture happens and the 70th week starts. Paul told us the SECRET that God showed him, we would be Raptured to Heaven........WHY? To Marry the Lamb. That happens in his Fathers house, not on this earth. Why is it you guys can not hear what the Master says in all hos parables? How the Wedding is is 7 days (7 years) and then the Marriage Feast after they come out of the wedding Chambers IN THE FATHERS HOUSE, how can you not get this sister? Jesus gave us parables the world can not understand. you and I are supposed to be able to dig these truths out. Ever wonder why God did not say Jesus (Yeshua which means Salvation) will be born at 7 AM on a Friday in so and so year? Ever wonder why God stated a Messiah would be born in Bethlehem AND that Hos son would also come out of Egypt? Because God wants only us to understand. not this evil world, because of those Prophesies King Herod tried to have baby Jesus killed, but God told Mary and Joseph to flee unto Egypt. SEE IT NOW? God is never wrong, but would you have figured it out 2000 years ago or argued he can not come out ofc Egypt but HAS to be born in Bethlehem? See my point?

I used to believe just as you did. I was indoctrinated with a pretrib rapture early on. But about 20 years ago, I finally got into the Word more seriously instead of trusting man's word and saw that it was not biblical. "Thy coming" can only mean singular. We cannot separate thy "coming" into two events, It does not work. We have to let the scriptures speak for themselves.
The problem then is you listened to MEN back then and when you changed you again listen top MEN or an Angel of Light who is not really an Angel of Light, Satan never stops trying to deceive us sister. But God can not tell an untruth, so He has never stated anywhere that the Rapture is not Pre Trib.

Anyone who goes of translated words and gets into the weeds on a "SINGULAR COMING" via a words phrasing is way off track in how the study the bible. Its talking about TWO ADVENTS to start with, not TWO COMINGS, Jesus has been on this earth, MANY, MANY, MANY times !! He was THE LORD in Genesis 18 and 19 that prayed to the Lord on Heaven to reign down fire on Sodom. He was I AM unto Moses in the Burning Bush. He was the Man in Linen in Dan. 12. He was THE ROCK in the desert that led Israel for 40 years. In John 20 when Mary saw Jesus after he uttered her name he says "Touch me not. for I have not yet ascended to the Father [to offer the Sacrifice]. Mary merely touching Jesus with her sin stained hands would have defiled the Sacrifice. Yet 8 days later Jesus brought the Gift of the Holy Spirit back with him from the Father. Then told Doubting Thomas to touch his wounds, sop Jesus went to heaven and returned. Its TWO ADVENTS not two Comings. Meaning the Meekly Lamb and the Roaring Lion. Parsing the tense of a word is literally the wrong way to study the bible sister.

You have added the word "earth" so you are making it simple for your definition.
Because I understand we are being Raptured to Heaven. That means we leave this earth right?

Luke 5:35 "But the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken away from them, and then shall they fast in those days."
Where is the Fathers House? Heaven.

Matthew 24:39 "And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the son of man be."
We want to be TAKEN AWAY [in the Boat........not LEFT like those in the FLOOD].

So I'm pretty firm in the path I'm on -we'll see in the end...
Until you understand the Raptures TIMING you will never understand End Time Eschatology Sister. The Seven (7) Feasts lays out ever move God makes via Jesus,, he fulfills ALL 7 FEASTS. He was the 1.) Passover. 2.) He was Unleavened (NO SIN) 3.) He was the First-fruits of THE GRAVE. Them Israel was forsaken by God, and we get the ONE FEAST all alone on the calendar (time of the Gentiles) unto its self.

4.) Feast of Weeks/The Harvest/The Church Age/Pentecost ( Jesus is fulfilling that as we speak by being our High Priest in heaven, he's the HEAD we the Church are THE BODY. We are HAVESTING Souls instead of Produce. Jesus will end this Harvest just like the Jews did, via the LAST TRUMP !! It comes in the Fall via the Feast of Trumps, where everything will switch back to Israel's calling. We will be taken to Heaven tp marry the Lamb, meanwhile the Fathers Bride Israel will have to REPENT. See below.

5.) Feast of Trumps, God sends Jesus to RAPTURE his Bride and to let Israel and all the earth know that ATONEMEMENT is nigh at hand. Rev. 4:1 is the Rapture, just after the Church Age (Rev. 2 & 3)

6.) Feast of Atonement (Just as the Dan. 9:24-27 prophesy states Israel MUST REPENT or ATONE before the 70th week can end. We see that in Zech. 13:8-9 where 1/3 (5 million Jews) Atones or Repents then in the very next verse (Zech. 14:1) we see the Day of the Lord (God's Wrath) arrives.

7.) Feast of Tabernacles ( to TABERNACLE means to Dwell with God, so Israel sees Jesus DWELLING with them in Jerusalem for 1000 years, he thus FULFILLS all 7 Feasts himself. Why is it you can not see the TIME of the Gentiles is different from the other 6 Feasts sister? Everything is all about Israel EXCEPT for the Harvest Period.
 
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JulieB67

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s. Paul told us the SECRET that God showed him, we would be Raptured to Heaven...
Not biblical. You are believing traditions of men, not God's word.

Hebrews 9:28 makes it very clear he will only appear one more time.
 
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