Trump & Religious Principles

[dlamberth]

Because "8 of 10" Christians are *NOT* Trump. I didn't ask about them. I asked about Trump (the man, not his fans).

In the "most important" laws of your religion the first items is worship "no other gods". That is not the basis for freedom to worship those other gods. (It also isn't relevant to the question at hand, so lets let it rest for different day and thread.)

I already said I accepted that opposition to abortion is largely based on religious principles and that Trump is backing them, but it doesn't answer the question -- how does Trump's religious principles drive his opposition to abortion.

The question wasn't about if Trump would enable Christian nationalism or put in policies that would favor Christians over others. It was about *his* religious principles.

See the previous answer. I tried to keep my previous post succinct with a short dismissal. At this point in the post you haven't discussed Trump's religious position *at all*.

Retract this. It is a falsehood. I'm not sure where you get this idea. For the record I opposed abortion for many years based on my religious principles. I no longer hold either position, but I *do* know what they are and how they work.

As I acknowledged, Trump is backing these positions that others hold on religious principles. The question was not about the nature of those positions (debating abortion for example), or the positions held by the others. It is about why *TRUMP* holds them and if they are driven by *HIS* religious principles (not yours, or voters, or mine, or anyone else's). Are these positions Trump takes for based *his* religious principles or out of political expediency.

So let's try again:


Pick one (not both, please) and demonstrate that Trump holds that position for religious reasons. (And no, doing it to placate the religious reasons of others does not qualify.) Good luck. (You are going to need it.)

[To anyone still reading this thread -- is my ask too much or too hard to understand? I don't think it is.]

Seems clear to me.

 

[Bradskii]

[To anyone still reading this thread -- is my ask too much or too hard to understand? I don't think it is.]

We both know that what you'll get is a another few hundred words that will avoid the question completely. Very frustrating.

 

[stevevw]

Because "8 of 10" Christians are *NOT* Trump. I didn't ask about them. I asked about Trump (the man, not his fans).

Lol but who are you asking. Your asking Trump supporters or anti Trump supporters. You can't get around this. There is no independent position from the context that its about what voters think about Trump.

So just like any data we can use it to deduce what the voters think of Trump. What they think of Trump is relevant to those voters as to what they think Trump is like. What his principles are and whether they align with that demographic. So the vast majority of Christians believe Trump aligns with their religious principles. At least some of them. Otherwise they would not support him.

They believe Trump will lead the Nation along the Christian principles they support. This is a fact. It doesn't matter about examples.

Its probably a better indication of religious principles then trying to debate individual examples as they can be argued either way being religious but also secular. Whereas a majority view of Trump as aligning with their religious principles whatever they are is stronger evidence because many people agree adding weight.

Former President Donald Trump promised to use a second term in the White House to defend Christian values and even suggested he’d shield the faith’s central iconography,

https://apnews.com/article/trump-2024-campaign-religious-broadcasters-convention-7f73f4b27451b514ae7d22093b20d40d

In the "most important" laws of your religion the first items is worship "no other gods". That is not the basis for freedom to worship those other gods. (It also isn't relevant to the question at hand, so lets let it rest for different day and thread.)

Why let it go. Are you trying to control the narrative and create a logical fallacy. It is relevant in that your trying to use a false representation of what the Christian religious principle of religious freedom comes from when the fact is it well recognised that religious freedom is a Christian religious principle.

For example here is the Catholic position
According to the Catholic Church in the Vatican II document on religious freedom, Dignitatis Humanae, "the human person has a right to religious freedom", which is described as "immunity from coercion in civil society".

Freedom of religion - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The civic principles of religious freedom are in unity with biblical principles of religious freedom. There were Judeo-Christian values and biblical principles included in the founding of the United States, which is why such religious freedom exists there.

What is a biblical view on freedom of religion? - Compelling Truth

What is a biblical view on freedom of religion? Is religious freedom a biblical concept? What does the Bible say about freedom of religion?

www.compellingtruth.org

I already said I accepted that opposition to abortion is largely based on religious principles and that Trump is backing them, but it doesn't answer the question -- how does Trump's religious principles drive his opposition to abortion.

I mentioned that already. Trump obviously believes that there is some spiritual aspect to life beyond the physical clump of cells pro abortionist claim. So he is sensitive to unnecessary abortions. Why else would someone be against abortion unless for religious reasons.

The question wasn't about if Trump would enable Christian nationalism or put in policies that would favor Christians over others. It was about *his* religious principles.

It is about his religious principles because allowing Christian religious principles being the determinant of policy and law is agreeing with those principles and agreeing with those principles makes one own up to those principles. At least implicitly if not explicitly.

If Trumps allowance of religious principles as the determining fact that stops abortion isn't it logical that Trump also supports that religious principle against abortion.

See the previous answer. I tried to keep my previous post succinct with a short dismissal. At this point in the post you haven't discussed Trump's religious position *at all*.

Yes your short dismissals such as "Not relevant" without any reasons were not succinct but left a lot undetermined and unevidenced. As I have just shown.

Retract this. It is a falsehood. I'm not sure where you get this idea. For the record I opposed abortion for many years based on my religious principles. I no longer hold either position, but I *do* know what they are and how they work.

I am referring to the fact that religious principles are subjective. How you see tham is not necessarily how others see them. I am sure there are supoporters of aboirtion who claim their position is based on religious principles considering the fact that there must be Christians or other religions represented within the Left.

So though you oppose abortion I am sure you don't consider your position based on a religious principle as you are an atheist and don't believe religious principles are true in any objective way beyond humans such God as a moral lawgiver. You obviously have some other basis such as humanism or just on the truism of the principle for valuing life regardless of religion.

The point being apart from Christians or religious people claim moral truths as a matter of divine determination any determination beyond that is going to be subjective and non Christians have no basis for religious principles and morality apart from the subjective determinations they make which may be different but not necessarily wrong.

What your doing is using your personal subjective beliefs about what are religious and Christian principles which misrepresent those principles and then claiming these are the objective truth. Can you see the problem.

As I acknowledged, Trump is backing these positions that others hold on religious principles. The question was not about the nature of those positions (debating abortion for example), or the positions held by the others.

Yes it is. As I just alluded to above its subjective according to Trumps detractors. So if we can't agree on what exactly are religious principles how can be discuss whether Trump supports religious principles.

You just disputed that Christianity has no religious principle on religious freedom and tried to equate the Christian basis with the 1st commandment. I just showed you how steeped religious freedom is connected to Christian principles.

So I am not going to give in to you dictating the definitions and what is exactly a religious principle. Otherwise I am going along with your logical fallacies.

It is about why *TRUMP* holds them and if they are driven by *HIS* religious principles (not yours, or voters, or mine, or anyone else's). Are these positions Trump takes for based *his* religious principles or out of political expediency.

Wait a minute. Not yours or Christian religious principles. You just literally stated what the definition of the principle of religious freedm is which was false. You just dictated that we must use this definition. Isn't that contradictory to saying that "its not about anyone elses religious principles'.

We are already disagreeing about what a religious principle is so how can we even know according to you what Trumps religious principles are and why he supports them.

Christians say freedoms including religion is a Christian religious principle that Trump supports for the same reasons Christians do. Because God made us free will agents and you cannot be judged as a sinner unless you have the right to freely choose to believe or not to believe. Its as simple as that and the same principle is applied to Declarations and Human Rights which was based on that Christian principle.

So let's try again:

Pick one (not both, please) and demonstrate that Trump holds that position for religious reasons. (And no, doing it to placate the religious reasons of others does not qualify.) Good luck. (You are going to need it.)

Why you just did that yourself when you cited the so called religious belief of the 1st commandment against religious freedom as a Christian principle. Isn't that using other peoples beliefs to define a religious principle. Namely YOURS.

Like Freedom of belief the religious beliefs of Christians is why Trump is against unnecessary abortions and LGBTIQ+ and DEI ideology. These are a threat to the Christian principles associated with these issues. Like upholding Gods truth of man and women as two sexes, the traditional family of mother and father, marriage between man and women and the sanctity of life in the womb.

Tell me why alse would Trump be against unnecessary abortion. If not that he believes in the sanctity of life because of his belief in God. Tell me why else would Trump be against Trans ideology if it wasn't because of his belief that God made us in His image male and female.

[To anyone still reading this thread -- is my ask too much or too hard to understand? I don't think it is.]

When you create fallacies and actually do the very things your asking me not to doi by restricting things to your parameters and not being neutral it does make it hard. I gave you plenty of reasons why Trump holds religious principles and you dispute they are principles in the first place and then create some strawman misrepresentation of what exactly are religious principles let alone what are Trumps.

Until thats sorted, until we agree on what exactly is a religious principle then theres no use carrying on with your logical fallacies and control of the narrative as to what defines a religious principle.

 

[Hans Blaster]

Lol but who are you asking. Your asking Trump supporters or anti Trump supporters. You can't get around this. There is no independent position from the context that its about what voters think about Trump.

I'm not asking either. I am asking *YOU* to demonstrate the claimed "Trump's religious principles".

So just like any data we can use it to deduce what the voters think of Trump. What they think of Trump is relevant to those voters as to what they think Trump is like. What his principles are and whether they align with that demographic. So the vast majority of Christians believe Trump aligns with their religious principles. At least some of them. Otherwise they would not support him.

They believe Trump will lead the Nation along the Christian principles they support. This is a fact. It doesn't matter about examples.

(A) Offering to use "christian principles" in his rule is offering Christian nationalism to his backers and supporters, not a declaration of his own principles.

Its probably a better indication of religious principles then trying to debate individual examples as they can be argued either way being religious but also secular. Whereas a majority view of Trump as aligning with their religious principles whatever they are is stronger evidence because many people agree adding weight.

Former President Donald Trump promised to use a second term in the White House to defend Christian values and even suggested he’d shield the faith’s central iconography,

https://apnews.com/article/trump-2024-campaign-religious-broadcasters-convention-7f73f4b27451b514ae7d22093b20d40d

(A) Offering to use "christian principles" in his rule is offering Christian nationalism to his backers and supporters, not a declaration of his own principles. It is pandering if he doesn't share those principles or beliefs.

Why let it go.

Because it is not a religious principle and therefore outside the scope of this thread.

Are you trying to control the narrative and create a logical fallacy. It is relevant in that your trying to use a false representation of what the Christian religious principle of religious freedom comes from when the fact is it well recognised that religious freedom is a Christian religious principle.

For example here is the Catholic position
According to the Catholic Church in the Vatican II document on religious freedom, Dignitatis Humanae, "the human person has a right to religious freedom", which is described as "immunity from coercion in civil society".

Freedom of religion - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The civic principles of religious freedom are in unity with biblical principles of religious freedom. There were Judeo-Christian values and biblical principles included in the founding of the United States, which is why such religious freedom exists there.

What is a biblical view on freedom of religion? - Compelling Truth

What is a biblical view on freedom of religion? Is religious freedom a biblical concept? What does the Bible say about freedom of religion?

www.compellingtruth.org

Did my church support religious freedom and (modest) separation of religion and government? Of course they did, for political reasons. We were a minority faction. They weren't so " principled" where and when in history they were the dominant faction.

I mentioned that already. Trump obviously believes that there is some spiritual aspect to life beyond the physical clump of cells pro abortionist claim. So he is sensitive to unnecessary abortions.

"Obvious" isn't evidence. I went back through your posts and at most I can find the claim of Trump's opposition to abortion. No demonstration of personal religious motivation.

Why else would someone be against abortion unless for religious reasons.

You should expand your imagination a bit. Roughly 10-15% of non-affiliated Americans oppose abortion. Non-religious arguments are available. The question here is if Trump's apparent opposition to abortion is based on his religious convictions or just his need to satisfy the religious convictions of his followers.

It is about his religious principles because allowing Christian religious principles being the determinant of policy and law is agreeing with those principles and agreeing with those principles makes one own up to those principles. At least implicitly if not explicitly.

Where are the explicit statements of his motivations and principles?

If Trumps allowance of religious principles as the determining fact that stops abortion isn't it logical that Trump also supports that religious principle against abortion.

No. He could just be pandering. Wouldn't be the first or last politician to do so.

Yes your short dismissals such as "Not relevant" without any reasons were not succinct but left a lot undetermined and unevidenced. As I have just shown.

Instead of trying to demonstrate the relevance of your off-topic replies, you could just go find the actual arguments needed to back your position.

I am referring to the fact that religious principles are subjective. How you see tham is not necessarily how others see them. I am sure there are supoporters of aboirtion who claim their position is based on religious principles considering the fact that there must be Christians or other religions represented within the Left.

This is what you wrote:

"You also have no foundation for what a religious principle is and thus are arguing from either ignorance or mirepresentation of some religious principles you think are right and not what are actually religious principles."

The issue is not about subjectivity or "the Left", it is your claim that I "have no foundation" for knowing what a religious principle and that I must be ignorant or stubborn. Try again. I'm looking for a retraction of your claim about me.

So though you oppose abortion I am sure you don't consider your position based on a religious principle as you are an atheist and don't believe religious principles are true in any objective way beyond humans such God as a moral lawgiver. You obviously have some other basis such as humanism or just on the truism of the principle for valuing life regardless of religion.

I do not oppose abortion. You should really read what I wrote carefully. It was pretty clear.

The point being apart from Christians or religious people claim moral truths as a matter of divine determination any determination beyond that is going to be subjective and non Christians have no basis for religious principles and morality apart from the subjective determinations they make which may be different but not necessarily wrong.

What your doing is using your personal subjective beliefs about what are religious and Christian principles which misrepresent those principles and then claiming these are the objective truth. Can you see the problem.

Nope. What I'm doing is asking you to draw a straight line from Trump to religious principles.

Yes it is.

My question is MOST DEFINITELY about Trump's personal principles, not his supporters, not his backers, not his allies.

As I just alluded to above its subjective according to Trumps detractors. So if we can't agree on what exactly are religious principles how can be discuss whether Trump supports religious principles.

You just disputed that Christianity has no religious principle on religious freedom and tried to equate the Christian basis with the 1st commandment. I just showed you how steeped religious freedom is connected to Christian principles.

All I see is self interest. (Nothing wrong with self-interest.) If it is a real principle, then they wouldn't freak out so much about Muslims or 'satanists' expressing their religious positions and practices. But we don't need this "principle" we had two others I pointed out several posts back. (abortion, LGBTQ)

So I am not going to give in to you dictating the definitions and what is exactly a religious principle. Otherwise I am going along with your logical fallacies.

I'm not dictating definitions on religous principle. (I agreed long ago that opposition to abortion was based on religious principles for most who oppose. We could just discuss Trump's religious reasons for opposing abortion, but you want to do something else for some reason.)

Wait a minute. Not yours or Christian religious principles. You just literally stated what the definition of the principle of religious freedm is which was false. You just dictated that we must use this definition. Isn't that contradictory to saying that "its not about anyone elses religious principles'.

We are already disagreeing about what a religious principle is so how can we even know according to you what Trumps religious principles are and why he supports them.

Christians say freedoms including religion is a Christian religious principle that Trump supports for the same reasons Christians do. Because God made us free will agents and you cannot be judged as a sinner unless you have the right to freely choose to believe or not to believe. Its as simple as that and the same principle is applied to Declarations and Human Rights which was based on that Christian principle.

Why you just did that yourself when you cited the so called religious belief of the 1st commandment against religious freedom as a Christian principle. Isn't that using other peoples beliefs to define a religious principle. Namely YOURS.

I don't buy that general religious freedom (instead of "freedom for me and maybe you" religious freedom) is a general Christian moral principle. But the details of that are not germane to this thread. We have two other perfectly viable candidate positions that we both agree Christians adopt for religious reasons. Let's discuss Trump and those positions.

Like Freedom of belief the religious beliefs of Christians is why Trump is against unnecessary abortions and LGBTIQ+ and DEI ideology. These are a threat to the Christian principles associated with these issues. Like upholding Gods truth of man and women as two sexes, the traditional family of mother and father, marriage between man and women and the sanctity of life in the womb.

I do understand that those are the reasons Christians give. Now show that these are the reasons TRUMP gives. Does he say that god "created man and woman" like you guys do? Does he say "life in the womb" is sacred like you guys do?

Tell me why alse would Trump be against unnecessary abortion.

To get votes. (He is at least as cynical as I am.)

If not that he believes in the sanctity of life because of his belief in God. Tell me why else would Trump be against Trans ideology if it wasn't because of his belief that God made us in His image male and female.

He finds trans people "icky", perhaps? Go find some quotes either way.

When you create fallacies and actually do the very things your asking me not to doi by restricting things to your parameters and not being neutral it does make it hard. I gave you plenty of reasons why Trump holds religious principles and you dispute they are principles in the first place and then create some strawman misrepresentation of what exactly are religious principles let alone what are Trumps.

Until thats sorted, until we agree on what exactly is a religious principle then theres no use carrying on with your logical fallacies and control of the narrative as to what defines a religious principle.

I just want this to stay confined to a relatively narrow topic (one noted in the title: "Trump religious principles" All you need to do is demonstrate by his words (or non-political deeds) that his opposition to "trans ideology" or abortion are based on the principles of his religious conviction. You (and many others on this site) have demonstrated that *your* opposition is based on *your* religious princples, but not so far for Mr. Trump and his.

 

[stevevw]

I'm not asking either. I am asking *YOU* to demonstrate the claimed "Trump's religious principles".

Your asking little old me. Ok well I have already done that. But you want examples of where he actually states explicitly that the reason for his position is religious, like because of God or his faith in God.

I don't think many politicians do that, maybe Evangelists. Harris says she has faith but we don't hear her say specifically its because of faith for any particular issue position. Trump could state he is motivated by his faith but skeptics will then just say he is lying. Thats why its act actions rather than words.

(A) Offering to use "christian principles" in his rule is offering Christian nationalism to his backers and supporters, not a declaration of his own principles.
(A) Offering to use "christian principles" in his rule is offering Christian nationalism to his backers and supporters, not a declaration of his own principles. It is pandering if he doesn't share those principles or beliefs.

What is Christian nationalism. He isn't offering a theocracy. Is Christian nationalism a religious principle itself. Christian nationalism is about defining American as a Christian nation and that the government should take steps to make it that way and maintain that. That naturally includes installing Christian principles.

Why would Trump make America more Christian if he didn't also believe in making the US Christian.

Because it is not a religious principle and therefore outside the scope of this thread.

Who says its not a religious princple, you an atheist. You claimed the 1st commandment defined the Christian belief about freedom of religion and you were wrong. At least for the billions of Christians that believe its related to being Made in Gods image and having the right to volition.

I just gave you evidence that it is a Christian principle from the Catholic Church itself in its formal position which stated that Freedom of Religion is a Christian principle they stand on. ie According to the Catholic Church in the Vatican II document on religious freedom, Dignitatis Humanae, "the human person has a right to religious freedom",

Even the UN recognises this

Human Rights from a religious viewpoint (with particular reference to religious liberty)
The theological underpinning to its concern is derived from the Christian estimate of a human being. Made in the image of God, human beings are created equal in dignity and worth in God's sight, regardless of difference in colour, race, nationality, culture and sex. The key to the dignity of the human being is freedom. Freedom, not virtue, God's truth and love are given in freedom and call for a free response. This freedom is the genesis of religious liberty and all other human rights.

Human Rights from a religious viewpoint (with particular reference to religious liberty)

Ronald Wilson President Human Rights and Equal Opportunity Commission World Conference on Religion and Peace2 February 1991 Monash UniversitySpeech notes Synopsis: I. Introduction II. United Nations Charter III. The Universal Declaration 1. Place of religious freedom among human rights (a) A...

humanrights.gov.au

Did my church support religious freedom and (modest) separation of religion and government? Of course they did, for political reasons. We were a minority faction. They weren't so " principled" where and when in history they were the dominant faction.

Your personal experiences and views are irrelevant. Nor does any particular church actions negate the Christian principle of freedom of religion.
The evidence comes from the fact that religious freedom comes from the same basis for all freedoms within Declarations and Human Rights which are also based on Christian principles.

"Obvious" isn't evidence. I went back through your posts and at most I can find the claim of Trump's opposition to abortion. No demonstration of personal religious motivation.

This is silly. Its like reading mind games. So Trump has the same position as Christians on abortion but its not as a religious principle because you want evidence that his motivation is religious. Does that even matter. If he supports the same principles regardless of why isn't that supporting the same principle as religious people and a good thing. Are you saying because its not religious its not a good principle.

You should expand your imagination a bit. Roughly 10-15% of non-affiliated Americans oppose abortion. Non-religious arguments are available. The question here is if Trump's apparent opposition to abortion is based on his religious convictions or just his need to satisfy the religious convictions of his followers.

Why does it matter. He could have satified the religious conviction of Islamists some crazy ideology like Trans. But he satisfied the religious convictions of Christians. I think your underestimating his motivation. The truth is theres probably a bit of both. Are you saying Trump is not religious.

Where are the explicit statements of his motivations and principles?

No one goes around stating their beliefs explicitly. Look what happened to those who expressed their belief that Jesus is Lord at Kamala's abortion ralliy.

I don't hear Harris, or Walts declaring their religious motivation. But as they both profess to have faith that their faith must have an influence on their position. Its not something many believing politicians do. They believe actions speak louder than words.

And heres the dilemma. If you asked Harris why she supports abortion I am sure as the Left does they will come up with some religious rationalisation. Like autonomy is a God given right. So even if we know Trumps religious motivation it doesn't mean anything. Its the actions that express the faith.

No. He could just be pandering. Wouldn't be the first or last politician to do so.

Of course theres a bit of that in every politician. But that doesn't mean theres also not a bit of religious conviction as well. I think thats true of most politicians who have faith.

Instead of trying to demonstrate the relevance of your off-topic replies, you could just go find the actual arguments needed to back your position.

Already have. And they are not irrelevant off topic replies. That is what I am disputing and you were wrong.

This is what you wrote:

"You also have no foundation for what a religious principle is and thus are arguing from either ignorance or mirepresentation of some religious principles you think are right and not what are actually religious principles."

The issue is not about subjectivity or "the Left", it is your claim that I "have no foundation" for knowing what a religious principle and that I must be ignorant or stubborn. Try again. I'm looking for a retraction of your claim about me.

Ok I should have said "you have no objective foundation". Sorry I assume that as a given for aeists and moral subjectivists. They have no independent basis beyond themselves. So yes you have a basis but its your basis and not an objective one beyond you.

It is about subjectivity because as I explained above we are looking at peoples beliefs and they can vary and the religious reasons can vary. So according to subjectivists and atheists even if I show Trumps religious motivation its just a subjective belief that is not necessarily good or true. That even non religious principles are good if not better.

Thats why I cannot understand your insistence on people proving his religious principles like its some independent measure of Trumps goodness. Why would atheists and subjectivists be using Christian principles and values as the basis for whats good. Thats more or less acknowledging they also believe in their worth as indeoendent measures.

I do not oppose abortion. You should really read what I wrote carefully. It was pretty clear.

Sorry read the first part where you said you apposed abortion and not the second part. A bit sloppy.

Nope. What I'm doing is asking you to draw a straight line from Trump to religious principles.

A straight line. Like say Trump explicitly stating religious principle notivation on a specific issue. So if we cannot find any therefore ?. Does that mean Trump has not faith and religious motivation. No I don't think so. If it was the case then we could wipe out most politicians as being influenced by their faith because they don't express it explicitly.

My question is MOST DEFINITELY about Trump's personal principles, not his supporters, not his backers, not his allies.

Well like I said I don't think there are many that explicitly state his religious reasons on a specific issue. BUt thats the same for most politicians. Thats why its about actions. If Christians percieve Trumps actions as being in line with their beliefs then thats why they support him. But actions are the real evidence of belief not words.

All I see is self interest. (Nothing wrong with self-interest.)

Ah so theres the motivation, your personal view of Trump being self interested. You see no other reason in him but selfishness. Yet you said it wasn't about other peoples beliefs or views of Trump.

If you already think Trumps is selfish then your going to be skeptical of his motivation. You can't see any good in him. But Christians may not be so skeptical and therefore see his position as not selfish but motivated by some greater principle. One that aligns with theirs.

If it is a real principle, then they wouldn't freak out so much about Muslims or 'satanists' expressing their religious positions and practices.

Thats doesn't follow. You can still believe in religious freedoms but criticize certain beliefs. That doesn't mean you want to force the satanist or Muslim to convert to Christianity.

But we don't need this "principle" we had two others I pointed out several posts back. (abortion, LGBTQ)

I don't know what to give you. I think your asking more of Trump that any other politician.

I'm not dictating definitions on religous principle. (I agreed long ago that opposition to abortion was based on religious principles for most who oppose. We could just discuss Trump's religious reasons for opposing abortion, but you want to do something else for some reason.)

We needed to sort out what was a religious principle or not. If you are getting that wrong then how can we rely on what else you claim. Nevertheless heres the problem I see. You just acknowledged you think Trumps selfish so you are already skeptical of any examples I give (if there are any).

You just said most people who oppose abortion do so for religious principles except Trump. So we already have a bias in your mind to overcome where any examples will be dismissed. As compared to Christians who think he has religious reasons as well.

If Christians believe in anti abortion simply because of their faith ie we can assume people of faith are anti abortion then as Trump has faith we can assume the same. You cannot have faith and support abortion.

I don't buy that general religious freedom (instead of "freedom for me and maybe you" religious freedom) is a general Christian moral principle. But the details of that are not germane to this thread. We have two other perfectly viable candidate positions that we both agree Christians adopt for religious reasons. Let's discuss Trump and those positions.

Well freedoms, including freedom of religion are based on Christian principles and freedoms are a big part of Trumps position. Especially when he speaks about the Left taking those freedoms away.

The idea of individual rights and freedoms, which holds central importance in many Western democracies, finds its roots in Christian theology, particularly the belief in the equality of all human beings in the eyes of God.

Western Culture, Christian Origins Of | Inters.org

Christian Origins Of Western Culture

inters.org

I do understand that those are the reasons Christians give. Now show that these are the reasons TRUMP gives. Does he say that god "created man and woman" like you guys do? Does he say "life in the womb" is sacred like you guys do?

He has to if he has faith in God. He says God is watching over him and has a plan for him. He often refers to the bible as a guide. He has stated he believes in God and that its God we follow and not governments as the ultimate guide. He prays. So there must be some faith in him that comes into the picture when he is thinking about important issues.

To get votes. (He is at least as cynical as I am.)

But isn't that at least partly why all politicians nowadays work. If they don't get the votes they don't get in power. I don't think he is as cynnical as he has faith at least when it comes to God compared to an atheist and if faith or atheism is the basis for your worldview then theres a big difference.

He finds trans people "icky", perhaps? Go find some quotes either way.

"icky', Then it would be why he finds them icky. But why does it matter. If his position stops kids from being harmed from Trans ideology thats a good thing regardless of religion.

I just want this to stay confined to a relatively narrow topic (one noted in the title: "Trump religious principles" All you need to do is demonstrate by his words (or non-political deeds) that his opposition to "trans ideology" or abortion are based on the principles of his religious conviction. You (and many others on this site) have demonstrated that *your* opposition is based on *your* religious princples, but not so far for Mr. Trump and his.

Harris claims she is religious, has faith. Can you show me explicitly and specifically where she has said that her motivation is religious. Can you find any. There won't be many, only the bold evangelists. But you don't have to be an evangelists to have faith.

Really thats what it comes down to, whether Trump has faith. Because if he has any faith you can just about guarentee there will be some religious motivation for why he takes the positions he does. You cannot have faith and not be influenced to some degree as its a metphysical worldview that infiltrates every aspect of your life and how you see things. .

 

[Hans Blaster]

Your asking little old me.

Yes, I am.

Ok well I have already done that.

You got half way. You identified positions Trump backs that are often supported by religious principles (anti-abortion, anti-trans), but so far you have not connected the dots to Trump's personal religious conviction. (Admittedly that is a hard task. "I can't do it" is a reasonable response.)

But you want examples of where he actually states explicitly that the reason for his position is religious, like because of God or his faith in God.

Yes, I do. ("because it is part of my religion" would also work.)

I don't think many politicians do that, maybe Evangelists.

Perhaps not in your country, but they sure do in mine. Politicians invoke religious motivations *ALL THE TIME* in campaign speeches. To pick someone very close (formerly) to Trump's orbit, take Mike Pence. I don't think Pence could give five minute policy speech without mentioning his religious motivation (30 seconds max if it was on social policy). He is by far the only one.

Harris says she has faith but we don't hear her say specifically its because of faith for any particular issue position.

The question isn't about her, nor the thread. Frankly I haven't seen anyone claiming her positions are faith based on threads here.

Trump could state he is motivated by his faith but skeptics will then just say he is lying. Thats why its act actions rather than words.

All I am asking for is you to quote him in context saying such things.

[I might come back to the rest of your post tonight, but I have other things to do this morning. I didn't see anything that addresses my issues below in a quick read.]

 

[stevevw]

Yes, I am.

You got half way. You identified positions Trump backs that are often supported by religious principles (anti-abortion, anti-trans), but so far you have not connected the dots to Trump's personal religious conviction. (Admittedly that is a hard task. "I can't do it" is a reasonable response.)

No I don't think its reasonable in the context. Your sort of singling out Trump and asking something of him that most politicians even believing ones rarely do in explicitly stating their motivation is religious. Its almost a negative for them in todays political climate.

Yes, I do. ("because it is part of my religion" would also work.)

Well I think the best we can do for now is hypothesise about whether he is religiously motivated because I don't think there is a quote from him stating that his motivation for a specific policy position is because of religion or God.

All we can do is assume that because he has faith that he also consider his position in light of that faith. Seems a natural thing to do. To at least take that into consideration. If faith influences a persons worldview then it influences all aspects of their thinking.

Perhaps not in your country, but they sure do in mine. Politicians invoke religious motivations *ALL THE TIME* in campaign speeches. To pick someone very close (formerly) to Trump's orbit, take Mike Pence. I don't think Pence could give five minute policy speech without mentioning his religious motivation (30 seconds max if it was on social policy). He is by far the only one.

Ok, I think I have seen senator Kennedy, not Robert but John. He has a southern accent I think. Has a drawl but he mentions God a lot. But Trump does to a fair degree as well.

The question isn't about her, nor the thread. Frankly I haven't seen anyone claiming her positions are faith based on threads here.

But she claims to have faith. Anyone who has faith will be influenced by their faith. Its a worldview which cannot be turned off and one. All considerations will naturally consider what your faith position is. So somewhere down in her soul will be a religious basis. Not many politicians express this in todays political climate. Especially on the Left.

All I am asking for is you to quote him in context saying such things.

Ok well like I said the best I can find at the moment is Trump expressing his religious beliefs. Heres another one I found lol.In this one he's almost a preacher.

[I might come back to the rest of your post tonight, but I have other things to do this morning. I didn't see anything that addresses my issues below in a quick read.]

Ok so look at the vids see what you think. But it seems to be the best thats out there without me doing a deeper dig. I have heard statements to the effect that Trump has religious consultation and bible studies.

So I could imagine he mentions much more detail that he would not express out loud. So we could assume that there is more talk to Trumps religious beliefs and principles than what he tells people by the fact he has religious contacts privately.

But the vids are the best I can do at present.

I stll don't get it though. Why the importance on showing Trumps religious principles.

 

[Hans Blaster]

No I don't think its reasonable in the context. Your sort of singling out Trump and asking something of him that most politicians even believing ones rarely do in explicitly stating their motivation is religious. Its almost a negative for them in todays political climate.

I'm not singling out Trump. His "religious principles" are the SUBJECT OF THE THREAD. I frankly could not care less what Trump's "religious principles" are as I see no reason to think Trump is motivated by or acting on them. But, the thread claims that he

Well I think the best we can do for now is hypothesise about whether he is religiously motivated because I don't think there is a quote from him stating that his motivation for a specific policy position is because of religion or God.

All we can do is assume that because he has faith that he also consider his position in light of that faith. Seems a natural thing to do. To at least take that into consideration. If faith influences a persons worldview then it influences all aspects of their thinking.

Ok, I think I have seen senator Kennedy, not Robert but John. He has a southern accent I think. Has a drawl but he mentions God a lot. But Trump does to a fair degree as well.

But she claims to have faith. Anyone who has faith will be influenced by their faith. Its a worldview which cannot be turned off and one. All considerations will naturally consider what your faith position is. So somewhere down in her soul will be a religious basis. Not many politicians express this in todays political climate. Especially on the Left.

Ok well like I said the best I can find at the moment is Trump expressing his religious beliefs.

After watching that video you can come to the conclusion that Trump believes in god. (There are also about a dozen things in their that if I claimed were standard Christian attitudes would likely get me suspended. Take it all with a grain of salt.) If we accept it at face value then so far we have gotten to Trump believes in God and identifies as Christian. No Christians principles have been stated by Trump in any of those clips. (As an aside, the "next video" links at the end included one with a title card of Sabine Hossenfelder doing a "face palm" and the words "oh dear". Which is kind of how I feel about that clip reel.)

We are still a long way from demonstrating Trump has religious principles applied to his policy.

Heres another one I found lol.In this one he's almost a preacher.

A prepared speech read to a group organized for or by fundamentalist preacher Robert Jeffress. Once or twice in the speech Trump uses a "we" to include himself in the audience, but the speech is nothing but a list of Christian nationalist rhetoric and persecution-complex whinging. No principles expressed.

Ok so look at the vids see what you think. But it seems to be the best thats out there without me doing a deeper dig. I have heard statements to the effect that Trump has religious consultation and bible studies.

So I could imagine he mentions much more detail that he would not express out loud. So we could assume that there is more talk to Trumps religious beliefs and principles than what he tells people by the fact he has religious contacts privately.

But the vids are the best I can do at present.

The best path would be to accept that you can't demonstrate that Trump operates based on religious principles and end this.

I stll don't get it though. Why the importance on showing Trumps religious principles.

It is the central claim of this thread. I'm not sure why you have a problem understanding that.

 

[Injeun]

Because "8 of 10" Christians are *NOT* Trump. I didn't ask about them. I asked about Trump (the man, not his fans).

In the "most important" laws of your religion the first items is worship "no other gods". That is not the basis for freedom to worship those other gods. (It also isn't relevant to the question at hand, so lets let it rest for different day and thread.)

I already said I accepted that opposition to abortion is largely based on religious principles and that Trump is backing them, but it doesn't answer the question -- how does Trump's religious principles drive his opposition to abortion.

The question wasn't about if Trump would enable Christian nationalism or put in policies that would favor Christians over others. It was about *his* religious principles.

See the previous answer. I tried to keep my previous post succinct with a short dismissal. At this point in the post you haven't discussed Trump's religious position *at all*.

Retract this. It is a falsehood. I'm not sure where you get this idea. For the record I opposed abortion for many years based on my religious principles. I no longer hold either position, but I *do* know what they are and how they work.

As I acknowledged, Trump is backing these positions that others hold on religious principles. The question was not about the nature of those positions (debating abortion for example), or the positions held by the others. It is about why *TRUMP* holds them and if they are driven by *HIS* religious principles (not yours, or voters, or mine, or anyone else's). Are these positions Trump takes for based *his* religious principles or out of political expediency.

So let's try again:


Pick one (not both, please) and demonstrate that Trump holds that position for religious reasons. (And no, doing it to placate the religious reasons of others does not qualify.) Good luck. (You are going to need it.)

[To anyone still reading this thread -- is my ask too much or too hard to understand? I don't think it is.]

I would guess that it's for political expediency.

 

[Hans Blaster]

I would guess that it's for political expediency.

As would I.

 

[stevevw]

I'm not singling out Trump. His "religious principles" are the SUBJECT OF THE THREAD. I frankly could not care less what Trump's "religious principles" are as I see no reason to think Trump is motivated by or acting on them.

The question is why is he and not others the subject of the thread. You have to care about what Trumps religious principles are to be able to claim you see no reason that he lives up to any.

So here we have a thread that is about peoples subjective beliefs and views are about Trump. Thats why I asked whats the point. The same people who want to make threads or commoent of Trumps lack of religious principles are the same people that believe morality is subjective and religion and culture relative.

So what basis are you using for determining Trump has not religious principles. Yours, someone elses or his. It can't be Christian because relativists claim theres no truth in Christianity beyond the people who made it. Other cultures make different morals. Where is the grounding for your judgements.

But, the thread claims that he

He what?, is a hypocrite and has no religious principles. Yes the OP assumes the premise that Trump has no religious principles and is motivated by only selfish reasons. Not sure any evidence was given. Not sure you could as its really subjective.

After watching that video you can come to the conclusion that Trump believes in god.

God and the bible. You can't believe in God and then not believe in His truths and teachings.

(There are also about a dozen things in their that if I claimed were standard Christian attitudes would likely get me suspended.

Like what. I didn't see anything too controversial.

Take it all with a grain of salt.) If we accept it at face value then so far we have gotten to Trump believes in God and identifies as Christian. No Christians principles have been stated by Trump in any of those clips.

But surely if you believe in God and the bible and Christ for that matter that you also believe what that stood for, the teachings. Thats why you believe in God because of what the religion and writings tell you about the teachings, principles and truths to follow. Otherwise what are you believing an empty shell that represents nothing.

(As an aside, the "next video" links at the end included one with a title card of Sabine Hossenfelder doing a "face palm" and the words "oh dear". Which is kind of how I feel about that clip reel.)

As to why. A face palm because you can't believe Trump is really expressing his religious belief. Or the idea that Trump expressing religious beliefs is like Bin Laden expressing Christian beliefs lol.

We are still a long way from demonstrating Trump has religious principles applied to his policy.

I keep asking why lol. Why is this important. Why is it important that we may not find any specific quotes from Trump.

A prepared speech read to a group organized for or by fundamentalist preacher Robert Jeffress. Once or twice in the speech Trump uses a "we" to include himself in the audience, but the speech is nothing but a list of Christian nationalist rhetoric and persecution-complex whinging. No principles expressed.

Thats very cynnical. I disagree. The very first sentence talked about freedoms and volition. About the foundation of the family, society and government is based on God. Surely that comes with religius principles. You can't allow that without allowing the Christian principles. Like for example he mentions prayer as a practice in the public square where at present its being shot down.

The best path would be to accept that you can't demonstrate that Trump operates based on religious principles and end this.

Well I already did this. I said the best I can find at present are those videos and the like. BUt your underestimating their worth. How much they reveal about TRumps religious beliefs and principles.

It is the central claim of this thread. I'm not sure why you have a problem understanding that.

OK I can understand a believer having a reasonable justification for asking that question. They are a Christian or Catholic which is a demonomination within Christianity and they cannot reconcile Trumps behaviour with their belief.

But I cannot understand an atheist doing it as they don't believe in religious truth principles. For example you were trying to saying that freedom of religion is based on the 1st commandment. But you don't believe in the first commandment and in fact think its unreal and even a restriction on freedoms.

So Trump not believing in the 1st commandment would be a good thing according to the atheist and subjectivist who says religion should not control others and dictate what they believe.

That why I cannot understand your objections that Trump is not conforming to some religious belief and principles you think are wrong abjectively anyway.

 

[Hans Blaster]

The question is why is he and not others the subject of the thread. You have to care about what Trumps religious principles are to be able to claim you see no reason that he lives up to any.

Ask the OP. I didn't title this thread.

So here we have a thread that is about peoples subjective beliefs and views are about Trump. Thats why I asked whats the point. The same people who want to make threads or commoent of Trumps lack of religious principles are the same people that believe morality is subjective and religion and culture relative.

So what basis are you using for determining Trump has not religious principles. Yours, someone elses or his. It can't be Christian because relativists claim theres no truth in Christianity beyond the people who made it. Other cultures make different morals. Where is the grounding for your judgements.

He what?, is a hypocrite and has no religious principles. Yes the OP assumes the premise that Trump has no religious principles and is motivated by only selfish reasons. Not sure any evidence was given. Not sure you could as its really subjective.

So far I've really only asked for the most superficial of assessments. At this point I'm not even worried about whether we should believe his claims of religious principle. You haven't even found him claiming a position is based on a religous principle he claims to hold. Not one "I oppose abortion because my church holds it to be a sin." That is a very simple claim that many on here make over and over, and yet we can't find Trump making a similar claim. Trump's religious principles are beginning to look like claims of live adult African elephants in my house -- obviously not true through the positive evidence that should be visible.

God and the bible. You can't believe in God and then not believe in His truths and teachings.

The variety of religious beliefs within the broad Christian umbrella are large. One should not assume that any specific Christian idea is held by all Christians. (For example, some people think a global flood that killed all of humanity except one family is part of "God's truth". Despite believing in God for many many years, I never believed in any global flood. Likewise on the two issues we agreed were often held on religious principles, that Trump also endorses, many Christians do not agree on them.)

Like what. I didn't see anything too controversial.

We'll you've probably never taken a forced vacation from the board for accidentally saying something like one of those. It is understandable that you don't see this. (Some of the clips in that reel seem rather condescending about Christian practice and belief, almost mocking.)

But surely if you believe in God and the bible and Christ for that matter that you also believe what that stood for, the teachings. Thats why you believe in God because of what the religion and writings tell you about the teachings, principles and truths to follow. Otherwise what are you believing an empty shell that represents nothing.

Some beliefs are empty shells. I suspect if Trump does marginally hold any Christian beliefs they probably are a meaningless empty shell. He doesn't strike me as a deep thinker or spiritual person.

As to why. A face palm because you can't believe Trump is really expressing his religious belief. Or the idea that Trump expressing religious beliefs is like Bin Laden expressing Christian beliefs lol.

As I stated above, some seemed mocking. Some of these clips have been used to demonstrate he doesn't really know or understand Christianity in the past.

I keep asking why lol. Why is this important. Why is it important that we may not find any specific quotes from Trump.

Why, because he said nothing about policy, that's why.

Thats very cynnical. I disagree. The very first sentence talked about freedoms and volition. About the foundation of the family, society and government is based on God. Surely that comes with religius principles. You can't allow that without allowing the Christian principles. Like for example he mentions prayer as a practice in the public square where at present its being shot down.

It may be cynical, but I have a very cynical view of the dominionists, theocrats, and related persons. Their goal is not religious freedom for all, but the power to do exactly what they want and surpress any thing that challenges their religious notions. You probably don't have many of their type in your country and that has in the past been a barrier to our communication on the subject. The crowd Trump is giving a speech to wants religious supremacy, not freedom. Trump appears to align himself with them because Trump wants power, not because there is any evidence that Trump actually wants a theocracy.

Well I already did this. I said the best I can find at present are those videos and the like. BUt your underestimating their worth. How much they reveal about TRumps religious beliefs and principles.

The clips do not even address any issues that we have identified as religiously motivated.

OK I can understand a believer having a reasonable justification for asking that question. They are a Christian or Catholic which is a demonomination within Christianity and they cannot reconcile Trumps behaviour with their belief.

But I cannot understand an atheist doing it as they don't believe in religious truth principles. For example you were trying to saying that freedom of religion is based on the 1st commandment. But you don't believe in the first commandment and in fact think its unreal and even a restriction on freedoms.

So Trump not believing in the 1st commandment would be a good thing according to the atheist and subjectivist who says religion should not control others and dictate what they believe.

That why I cannot understand your objections that Trump is not conforming to some religious belief and principles you think are wrong abjectively anyway.

Because it is possible to evaluate peoples actions based on the principles they claim (or are alleged to claim) without holding those principles. One need not be a communist to evaluate Lenin's adherence to communism as head of the Russian government. One not need to be a Buddhist to evaluate if the Thai government is applying Buddhist religious principles to their actions. And, one need not be a Christian to see if Trump is applying *his* religious principles to his positions or actions.

[The two issues that we quickly identified (anti-abortion, anti-trans) are discussed so relelentlessly on this board, that even if I had never heard of these issues and had no idea Christians were opposed to them, I would have no problem understanding that many Christians hold those positions based on their religious principles because you people never stop telling us that. For bonus, I wasn't always an atheist, and the only political action I have every taken was to march to the Capitol in opposition to abortion when Reagan was President. I am well aware of the religous principles behind opposition to abortion from US Christians.]

Identifying the possible issues where Trump expresses a political position that many Christians hold for religious priniciples is easy. We found two right away in this exercise. (Trump's positions on abortion and transpeople are aligned with those held by many conservative Christians for explicitly religious reasons.) Now the issue is to conect the dots. And that is where things break down. Frankly I don't expect you to find them because I cynically evaluate Trump's alignment with conservative Christians to be entirely about gaining political power, and not his personal convictions.

 

[stevevw]

Ask the OP. I didn't title this thread.

No I was aking you as well. Your the one coming in and at least taking up the cause if not making it yourself about Trumps lack of religious principles. Like I said I can understand perhaps a Christian doing it but not an atheist and moral subjectivist.

So far I've really only asked for the most superficial of assessments. At this point I'm not even worried about whether we should believe his claims of religious principle. You haven't even found him claiming a position is based on a religous principle he claims to hold.

I disagree. There were religious principles implied in his declarations of belief and installing Christian practices by law. But even if that were true my point is that what he is doing such as stopping Trans ideology from harming kids, stopping Christians being descriminated against is good.

They are based on good principles. So even if your not bothered with Trumps religious principles your still stuck with the fact he has good principles full stop. So especially for a moral subjectivists a good principle is a good principle regardless of whether its based on religion or not.

Not one "I oppose abortion because my church holds it to be a sin." That is a very simple claim that many on here make over and over, and yet we can't find Trump making a similar claim.

Yes we hear many on social media who are not politicians make those expressions. But not many politicians and especially high profile ones.

Trump's religious principles are beginning to look like claims of live adult African elephants in my house -- obviously not true through the positive evidence that should be visible.

What, I don't understand. Are you equating religious belief with belief in elephants in a room. Of course elephants in the room is not true because you can't see them. We can objectively test this. But belief is a completely different thing. How are you measuring it. By your own subjective beliefs about what belief should look like. lol.

The variety of religious beliefs within the broad Christian umbrella are large. One should not assume that any specific Christian idea is held by all Christians. (For example, some people think a global flood that killed all of humanity except one family is part of "God's truth". Despite believing in God for many many years, I never believed in any global flood. Likewise on the two issues we agreed were often held on religious principles, that Trump also endorses, many Christians do not agree on them.)

Yes that partly relates to my point that what we are talking about basically comes down to subjective beliefs. You have just argued that even Christianity can have varyng ideas within the belief. Even some fundemental differences. If thats the case then how on earth are you measuring Trumps religious principles. You can't even know what exactly is Christian religious principles let alone Trumps.

It may be that like some Christians believe the flood did not happen, some Christians believe that Trumps crudeness is a religious principle that stops the evil of the secular power that is attacking Christianity. You have no basis and if you want to use Christianity you can't because according to you there are many versions and theres no clear cut truth.

We'll you've probably never taken a forced vacation from the board for accidentally saying something like one of those. It is understandable that you don't see this. (Some of the clips in that reel seem rather condescending about Christian practice and belief, almost mocking.)

See this is why the subjectivists position is incoherent. What exactly are you using as the basis for this. You just said that it would be something 'I' would get in trouble for in "My' church experience. But what about 'Other' peoples experiences. Isn't there some churches that support Trans ideology and claim to be Christian. So what exactly is offensive to todays so called Christian churches.

There may be Christians who believe its not conecending but sticking up for them. Afterall regardless of 'Words' Trump is clearly acting as though he is protecting the church and Christianity and not demeaning them.

This comes back to what exactly are we using to measure religious principles or good principles. The words coming out of ones mouth or the actions being done in reality.

Some beliefs are empty shells. I suspect if Trump does marginally hold any Christian beliefs they probably are a meaningless empty shell. He doesn't strike me as a deep thinker or spiritual person.

What, you obviously have not been listening. He did just recently have a near death event that he states brought him closer to God. Considering that when people do have these experiences they do reflect on their life and on life in general. Considering that he already professed to believe in God even if it was a shaky faith. He certainly took a step closer to God from his recent experiences.

But skeptics will still rationalise it away as fake. But thats the issue. Its a battle of subjective differences and theres no way to tell. You will forever create negatives and Trump supports always positives and no way to tell. If you say your way is the only way to tell then your claiming an objective truth just like TRump supporters lol. See how it works.

As I stated above, some seemed mocking. Some of these clips have been used to demonstrate he doesn't really know or understand Christianity in the past.

Man you could say that about many Christians. Are you seriously appealing to some Christian opinion when you don't believe in their opinion in the first place.

Why, because he said nothing about policy, that's why.

Yet what he said about religious protection and putting Christianity back in the public square will result most definitely into policy. Ie Roe V Wade overturned. Probably the Identity laws and Trans ideology will be overturned. Anti public expressions of faith in word and deed allowing for paraying at public events, out front of abortion clinics as peaceful protest overturned.

The list will go on. People being able to stand on their faith to oppose LGBTIQ+ ideology which will have ripple effects on peoples legal behaviour.

It may be cynical, but I have a very cynical view of the dominionists, theocrats, and related persons. Their goal is not religious freedom for all, but the power to do exactly what they want and surpress any thing that challenges their religious notions.

But that is exactly acting like the secular ideology claims they act. As dictators of behaviour using religion as the basis. WEll one view among many from the secularists.

I disagree that its all or nothing as far as Trumps belief. It may well be and I think for many politicians that they hold both a faith and religious principles and the political desires like power, popularity and will have some sort of compromise between the two. But to say Trump is all power and self and no religious belief influeeencing him is taking things too far. Is being extremely cynical.

You probably don't have many of their type in your country and that has in the past been a barrier to our communication on the subject. The crowd Trump is giving a speech to wants religious supremacy, not freedom. Trump appears to align himself with them because Trump wants power, not because there is any evidence that Trump actually wants a theocracy.

Yes we don't have such religious fundementalists in Oz. But I know the difference. The crowd he is addressing is just one religious demographic that Trump has addressed. He also address the Black church, Christian womens group and others. You can't define him based on one demographic.

The clips do not even address any issues that we have identified as religiously motivated.

Actually they do. You just have blinkers on. When Trump talks about communities being strong based on connections to church or strong families he is talking about Christian principles of the traditional family and a belief in God for society. In doing that you automatically endorse the principles that go with it.

If you say you champion socialism and the Left you are going to implement socialist principles and not capitalist ones. That would be silly. So we can definitely assume that Christian principles will be implemented around parenting, families, religious rights like praying and expressin Christian beliefs. Which then in turn promote them and cultivate them into society. These don't act in isolation but go hand in hand.

Because it is possible to evaluate peoples actions based on the principles they claim (or are alleged to claim) without holding those principles. One need not be a communist to evaluate Lenin's adherence to communism as head of the Russian government. One not need to be a Buddhist to evaluate if the Thai government is applying Buddhist religious principles to their actions. And, one need not be a Christian to see if Trump is applying *his* religious principles to his positions or actions.

Yes exactly. It is not in the words but in the actions. If Trump was to say nothing but the end result was that his actions resulted in many Christian principles being enacted in society we could only assume that thios was his intention. Therefore his belief in action resulted in Christian principles being implemented.

Trumps one clear act, reversing Roe V Wade. He never stated it was his religious belief. But his actions implemented a preligious principle against abortion. Was that his intention yes. What that his belief yes otherwise he would not have did what he did.

At the very least he has implemented a good principle to many. THat we cannot for sure say that its Christian yet has all the hallmarks of Christianity. Why does this matter. Lets just say he is accommodating of them which is good enough. Its still good.

If the point is to discredit Trump as not being religious then so what. If its to show that Trump is not good, has no good principles then I am afraid there is no case from the Left. Because what he has done is still good in principle.

 

[stevevw]

[The two issues that we quickly identified (anti-abortion, anti-trans) are discussed so relelentlessly on this board, that even if I had never heard of these issues and had no idea Christians were opposed to them, I would have no problem understanding that many Christians hold those positions based on their religious principles because you people never stop telling us that. For bonus, I wasn't always an atheist, and the only political action I have every taken was to march to the Capitol in opposition to abortion when Reagan was President. I am well aware of the religous principles behind opposition to abortion from US Christians.]

Identifying the possible issues where Trump expresses a political position that many Christians hold for religious priniciples is easy. We found two right away in this exercise. (Trump's positions on abortion and transpeople are aligned with those held by many conservative Christians for explicitly religious reasons.) Now the issue is to conect the dots. And that is where things break down. Frankly I don't expect you to find them because I cynically evaluate Trump's alignment with conservative Christians to be entirely about gaining political power, and not his personal convictions.

Yes and that has been my point all along. That you subjectively and cynically evaluate Trump as being only motivated for selfish power. That is your whole arguement. Just like you can't find Trump expressing religious reasons you can't find anything where he states he is against realigious reasons either.

So we are left with each sides subjective beliefs and opinions about Trump himself. That division goes all the way down. The skeptical and cynical Trump haters don't see any good no matter what. Even to the point of obsessing over proving Trump negatively in every possible way.

But here we have a situation where the majority do support Trump and many if not most believe he is a man of principle even if he has not stated it clearly. So we have two opposing subjective beliefs about TRumps religious beliefs and principles that rely on subjective determinations.

How can we ever possibly determine the Truth until the actions speak louder than words. If his actions result in a Christain theocracy could we then say Trump believes in the religious principles behind his actions despite never expressing that. Or does everything come down to the words you say or don't say.

 

[Hans Blaster]

Yes and that has been my point all along. That you subjectively and cynically evaluate Trump as being only motivated for selfish power. That is your whole arguement. Just like you can't find Trump expressing religious reasons you can't find anything where he states he is against realigious reasons either.

So we are left with each sides subjective beliefs and opinions about Trump himself. That division goes all the way down. The skeptical and cynical Trump haters don't see any good no matter what. Even to the point of obsessing over proving Trump negatively in every possible way.

But here we have a situation where the majority do support Trump and many if not most believe he is a man of principle even if he has not stated it clearly. So we have two opposing subjective beliefs about TRumps religious beliefs and principles that rely on subjective determinations.

How can we ever possibly determine the Truth until the actions speak louder than words. If his actions result in a Christain theocracy could we then say Trump believes in the religious principles behind his actions despite never expressing that. Or does everything come down to the words you say or don't say.

I don't think we can go on with this anymore (or at least I don't see anymore I can do here). We didn't have any problem identifying political positions held on religious principles. We seemed to agree generally on what religious principles were (at least until you started telling me I can't identify the clearly stated principles of groups I don't belong to because I don't belong.) We also didn't have any problem identifying political positions that Trump touts that some people do hold on religious principle. Our impasse isn't even the lack of direct evidence of Trump taking positions on political issues on his religious principles (I have never seen any such evidence in the nearly 10 years he has been running for president.), it is your refusal to give up and just say "I couldn't find any evidence". Instead you revert to reference to others and to insisting I can't know or understand what those principles even when I explicitly told you about how I once held one of them on such a principle. Sigh. I want no more of this.

As for my cynicism, no I never expected you to find an example because this is one of those cases where a decade of absent evidence likely indicates evidence of absence. Trump's only clearly demonstrated principle is "Trump is for Trump". I was ready to accept Trump held political positions on personal religious principles, but that has not been demonstrated. The only solace I take from this whole interaction is that you can't vote for him.

 

[stevevw]

I don't think we can go on with this anymore (or at least I don't see anymore I can do here). We didn't have any problem identifying political positions held on religious principles. We seemed to agree generally on what religious principles were (at least until you started telling me I can't identify the clearly stated principles of groups I don't belong to because I don't belong.)

Thats a misrepresentation of what happened. I said your personal view of what you believe is Christian principles did not represent what Christians believe.

I then showed how you were wrong with evidence. Thats not saying you can't identity Christian principles. Only that what you identified was wrong.

We also didn't have any problem identifying political positions that Trump touts that some people do hold on religious principle. Our impasse isn't even the lack of direct evidence of Trump taking positions on political issues on his religious principles

Yes we did. By you misrepresenting what Christian principles are you denied additional examples of Trump expressing religious principles. If religious freedom is a religious principle under freedoms based on the Christian principle of volition then suddenly Trumps expression of his belief in those freedoms are expressing religious principles.

(I have never seen any such evidence in the nearly 10 years he has been running for president.), it is your refusal to give up and just say "I couldn't find any evidence".

I did acknowledge several times that I cannot find the evidence you want. But I said so what. Does this prove Trump is not motivated by religious principles. No because we cannot read Trumps mind.

All you have is what you and other people observe and percieve and then subjectively determine ie (I have never seen any such evidence). But then if thats the case, if what people observe and percieve is the measure of Trumps religious principles. Then what Trump supporters observe and percieve that Trump does have religious principles should also stand.

Who is right. You can't just use the lack of expressing those principles because most politicians don't express their religious motivation and we can never say they have no religious motivation because they have not expressed it when have openly admitted they have faith in God. Are we to say their faith does not influence their positions.

Instead you revert to reference to others and to insisting I can't know or understand what those principles even when I explicitly told you about how I once held one of them on such a principle. Sigh. I want no more of this.

Can you see what your doing. Your claiming that your past religious experience which informs you today now trumps (no pun intended) todays Christians who believe Trump has religious principles. Who are we to believe current Christians or past Christians. Your asking me to believe you over current Christians.

As for my cynicism, no I never expected you to find an example because this is one of those cases where a decade of absent evidence likely indicates evidence of absence.

According to you. Absense of evidence is not evidence of absense. Especially when we are talking about subjective belief and how its expressed or not. Its not something you can put in a test tube and measure is it.

What your more or less saying is Trump despite professing belief has no belief. Because if Trump has belief there is no possible way that his belief like every single person who has belief cannot affect and onfluence how he sees his position politically. It doesn't matter whether there is evidence or not that he verbally expresses this. Its just a fact that belief in God or any belief influences your worldview.

So not only do you have to show Trump has not religious principles but also that he has no belief in God. Good luck with that.

Trump's only clearly demonstrated principle is "Trump is for Trump". I was ready to accept Trump held political positions on personal religious principles, but that has not been demonstrated. The only solace I take from this whole interaction is that you can't vote for him.

According to you. What your also saying is that the Christians who believe Trump has religious principles are liars. So what about the many people who have accepted Trump has religious principles.

But more to the point. Why does it matter to you. You don't believe in religious principles being real. Religious principles are just good human principles according to subjectivists and atheists.

If Trump supports anti abortion and Trans and it stops unnecessary harm isn't that a good thing. Isn't that standing on a good principle. Trump said we need to stop Trans as it harming kids. What principle is that. Perhaps the principle of "do no harm' especially to kids.

Did he state his motivation was religious, no not explicitly. But surely if he has a belief in God then his belief must have been involved as this principle is remarkable like a Christian principle. So at the very least we can join the dots. A belief in God and not harming children are closely related. He has two of the ingredients. To say theres no connection is unreal.

So if your mission was to show Trump as immoral or having no good principles then you have failed because at the very least we can say Trump stands for good principles.

 

[Hans Blaster]

Thats a misrepresentation of what happened. I said your personal view of what you believe is Christian principles did not represent what Christians believe.

I did not go with overly narrow choices. The positions I was accepting as driven by religious principles (anti-abortion, anti-trans) do not have universal agreement by Christians, but a large fraction of the Christians who hold such positions clearly do on religious principles. There was no need to discuss that selection further, and it was time to move on to Trump and his "principles".

I then showed how you were wrong with evidence. Thats not saying you can't identity Christian principles. Only that what you identified was wrong.

Yes we did. By you misrepresenting what Christian principles are you denied additional examples of Trump expressing religious principles. If religious freedom is a religious principle under freedoms based on the Christian principle of volition then suddenly Trumps expression of his belief in those freedoms are expressing religious principles.

I did acknowledge several times that I cannot find the evidence you want. But I said so what. Does this prove Trump is not motivated by religious principles. No because we cannot read Trumps mind.

All you have is what you and other people observe and percieve and then subjectively determine ie (I have never seen any such evidence). But then if thats the case, if what people observe and percieve is the measure of Trumps religious principles. Then what Trump supporters observe and percieve that Trump does have religious principles should also stand.

Who is right. You can't just use the lack of expressing those principles because most politicians don't express their religious motivation and we can never say they have no religious motivation because they have not expressed it when have openly admitted they have faith in God. Are we to say their faith does not influence their positions.

Can you see what your doing. Your claiming that your past religious experience which informs you today now trumps (no pun intended) todays Christians who believe Trump has religious principles. Who are we to believe current Christians or past Christians. Your asking me to believe you over current Christians.

That is not why I mentioned my experience. You tried to deny that I even *could* understand what Christian principles are because I don't belive in your Christ. So I used an example from my past that I hoped you couldn't deny my understanding.

According to you. Absense of evidence is not evidence of absense. Especially when we are talking about subjective belief and how its expressed or not. Its not something you can put in a test tube and measure is it.

What your more or less saying is Trump despite professing belief has no belief. Because if Trump has belief there is no possible way that his belief like every single person who has belief cannot affect and onfluence how he sees his position politically. It doesn't matter whether there is evidence or not that he verbally expresses this. Its just a fact that belief in God or any belief influences your worldview.

So not only do you have to show Trump has not religious principles but also that he has no belief in God. Good luck with that.

According to you. What your also saying is that the Christians who believe Trump has religious principles are liars. So what about the many people who have accepted Trump has religious principles.

Quit misreading what I wrote. I didn't call anyone a liar. Deceived, perhaps, but not liars. (Trump seems clearly trying to deceive American Christians, you just apparently got caught up in his deception.)

But more to the point. Why does it matter to you. You don't believe in religious principles being real. Religious principles are just good human principles according to subjectivists and atheists.

Its not that I don't think religious principles are real. I certainly think you have real religious principles, I just don't have any of my own.

If Trump supports anti abortion and Trans and it stops unnecessary harm isn't that a good thing. Isn't that standing on a good principle. Trump said we need to stop Trans as it harming kids. What principle is that. Perhaps the principle of "do no harm' especially to kids.

Did he state his motivation was religious, no not explicitly. But surely if he has a belief in God then his belief must have been involved as this principle is remarkable like a Christian principle. So at the very least we can join the dots. A belief in God and not harming children are closely related. He has two of the ingredients. To say theres no connection is unreal.

That was the whole point to test if he had any actual religious principles of his own. It seems that he does not.

So if your mission was to show Trump as immoral or having no good principles then you have failed because at the very least we can say Trump stands for good principles.

Trump demonstrates his utter immorality on a daily basis. I need not make any effort to demonstrate it. It is sad you can't see it.

 

[stevevw]

I did not go with overly narrow choices. The positions I was accepting as driven by religious principles (anti-abortion, anti-trans) do not have universal agreement by Christians, but a large fraction of the Christians who hold such positions clearly do on religious principles.

Not a large fraction but all Christians. You cannot believe in the Christian God and support abortion or Trans ideology. Trump believes in the Christian God.

There was no need to discuss that selection further, and it was time to move on to Trump and his "principles".

I wasn't discussing those particular issues of abortion and Trans. Like you said we already established that. I was saying that there are other religious principles Trump has mentioned as well like Christian principles around freedoms and volition.

I did move on. I said despite you saying you have not heard Trump explicitly say he is motivated by his religion doesn't mean he is not motivated by his religion. That its your word and belief verses Trump supporters word and belief.

That is not why I mentioned my experience. You tried to deny that I even *could* understand what Christian principles are because I don't belive in your Christ. So I used an example from my past that I hoped you couldn't deny my understanding.

You used the 1st commandment as the measure of why Christians support the principle of freedoms such as religious freedom. That shows a complete lack of understanding what the Christians position is on this. Your assuming a Christian mindset. I was saying that its wrong.

The fact that you got the true basis for Christians basis for freedoms including religious freedoms so wrong and was more in line with the atheist skeptics views is evidence of this. If you were in touch with Christian beliefs you would have known this.

Quit misreading what I wrote. I didn't call anyone a liar. Deceived, perhaps, but not liars. (Trump seems clearly trying to deceive American Christians, you just apparently got caught up in his deception.)

Ok decieved. They are not thinking straight, have cognitive distortions. Whatever you want to call it. The point is your saying that there is something wrong with all those Christians who believe Trump has religious principles. Rather than they could have a point or that from their perspective as Christians who measure what represents displaying Christian principles is different to yours.

In saying they are deluded your not believing them. Then your asking them to believe you lol.

Its not that I don't think religious principles are real. I certainly think you have real religious principles, I just don't have any of my own.

So obviously you have what you call good principles to live by. If one of your principles aligned with a religious principle can we say your principle is in line and supporting religious principles.

That was the whole point to test if he had any actual religious principles of his own. It seems that he does not.

Based on what, that he did not explicitly state this. If thats the measure then you have just wiped out just about every politician that claims to have belief in God as not being influenced by that belief.

Funny Kamala only yesterday was asked does she pray and she smiles and said yes everyday, sometimes twice a day. Surely in those prayers Kamala is asking God for guidence on what is the most important decisions in her life. But never have we heard her state that her position on abortion is religiously motivated or that Trans is based on her religious principles.

Trump demonstrates his utter immorality on a daily basis. I need not make any effort to demonstrate it. It is sad you can't see it.

Yes we are all sinners to varying degrees. But Trump says he has faith. He has come closer to God in recent times. Is getting older and thinking more about life and death.

I mentioned some of the differences in his behaviour from the past. He certainly is not as crude. Much of what people get outraged from is Trump not being PC.

As I mentioned he has involved a range of people with varying positions as part of his team. That doesn't sound like the old Trump who wanted to be overly controlling.

People are not fixed and they change. I don't think Trump is the same person he was in 2016, 2020 or even from the person he was at the beginning of the year before nealy being killed. To say he is still the same and hold him to that is unjustified under the circumstances and from what he has said recently.

But most on the Left hold a characture of Trump based on old and inflated misrepresentations. All the Trump derrangement syndrome has affected them and they cannot see past their bias.

At the end of the day sure Trump has not explicitly stated he is motivated by religion. BUt that does not follow that he is not motivated by his religious beliefs. That they don't influence him at all. They have to because of his belief.

 

[High Fidelity]

He’s not religious and he’s not a Christian.

The sooner people stop lying to themselves and others about that the better.

If he’s a means to the ends you want, that’s fine, but let’s stop pretending he’s Christian when he very clearly isn’t.

Absolutely nothing about him constitutes fruit-bearing Christian faith or conduct.

If you’re happy to be used in exchange for certain policies by someone that’s truthfully indifferent to the motivation or beliefs behind them, go for it, but at least own that and stop stroking your conscience by claiming he’s Christian.

 

[Stephen3141]

Can anyone reconcile the figure of Donald Trump, the ever-patriotic guy with good command of economic principles, & negotiating skills with the fact that his bullying behavior from the businessworld to staff to the constant denigrating of persons or groups of people in the worst possible language stands out so much. As a populist he just throws away support from so many groups by just signaling that everyone in the world is inferior to him. All this seems inconsistent with the 10 Commandments & other concepts of just common decency. It's like he's one of the Pharisees who were pretending to be holy but really were more about bullying the common folk.

Trump is neither patriotic, nor does he have a good understanding of economic
principles.

By the agreement of professional economists, the American economy is in
very good shape. Trump denies this, and spreads the story that it is in
really bad shape.

Trump doesn't seem to understand that applying all sorts of tariffs on imports,
will actually make it more expensive for Americans to buy consumer goods.
Trump does not seem to grasp some very basic economic dynamics.
Those who have invested in Trump companies, have done poorly.
Trump says that he is a brilliant judge of economic insight, but the
reality shows that he is not.

Trump is not patriotic (except, in his slogan speech).
He takes basic Consitutional rights out-of-context of the Consitution, and
tries to manipulate his way AROUND them to lie and commit crimes
(such as financial fraud, gaining him 34 felony conviction).
Trump does not seem to understand what the Supreme Court does --
that the immunity of the president from prosecution is only for carrying
out presidential RESPONSIBILITIES listed in the Consitution (not for
committing crimes, that are defined as crimes, in the fair rule of law
in America).
Note that the Trump "immunity" indictments are on track to start again,
as the indictments have been rewritten to take into account the guidelines
from the Supreme Court, on how to judge whether an act of the President
is an "official act", and subject to immunity from prosecution. According to
the Supreme Court, Trump is still open to prosecution for crimes that he
committed when he was President.

So many of the key advisors of Trump, have given testimony that Trump
does not respect the Consitution, or the fair rule of law in America.

You need to stop listening to what Trump SAYS, and start to evalute his
behavior, in the light of the meaning of the Consitution, and in the light
of what professional economists are saying. (Hitler thught that he was
a brilliant economist and general. Hitler brough us World War II, and
lost it.)