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FireDragon76

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Atheists no more have to reject the existence of God than Christians have to reject the existence of the Monkey King: Monkey King - Wikipedia

I bet most Christians haven't even heard of the Monkey King. Though he is known and believed in by millions of kids in China. That's my point. Bad Christian apologists assume that Christianity is indispensible and self-evident, and it must be so for everyone, but that's not going to convince anybody that's unconvinced.
 
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Andrewn

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Atheism is defined as a lack of belief in God. "Reject" is a stronger term than warranted. Merely lacking belief is not necessarily the same as rejection.
I meant and should have written, "Reject the concept of God." In other words, atheists do not only reject a particular understanding of God but the existence of a conscious ground of life as a whole. I'm thinking of the Brahman of Hinduism and the One of Neoplatonism.

I'm not trying to promote a specific belief in God with conceived attributes.
 
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FireDragon76

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I meant and should have written, "Reject the concept of God." In other words, atheists do not only reject a particular understanding of God but the existence of a conscious ground of life as a whole.

"Conscious ground of life" is a somewhat vague term, so that's very much debatable. It's certainly not true that all atheists are materialists, much less having any particular shared metaphysics.
 
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Leaf473

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Atheism is defined as a lack of belief in God. "Reject" is a stronger term than warranted. Merely lacking belief is not necessarily the same as rejection.
Hi :heart:

What do you see as the difference between atheism and agnosticism?

What word do you use for those who believe that there is no God?

Polemical apologetics used against atheists and non-Christians are unhelpful and don't serve good ends.
 
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FireDragon76

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Hi :heart:

What do you see as the difference between atheism and agnosticism?

Agnosticism has more to do with epistemology, atheism is merely lack of belief in God or gods. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

What word do you use for those who believe that there is no God?

Atheism or non-theist. Most atheists would claim to be agnostic also. Which means they aren't "believing there is no God", just unpersuaded by religious claims.
 
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Leaf473

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Agnosticism has more to do with epistemology, atheism is merely lack of belief in God or gods. The two aren't mutually exclusive.



Atheism or non-theist. Most atheists would claim to be agnostic also. Which means they aren't "believing there is no God", just unpersuaded by religious claims.

This is new to me.

It seems to me the terms have changed some time during my lifetime :D

With the proposition:
"God or gods exist",

A person can accept the statement - theist

A person can reject the statement - atheist

A person can say they don't know - agnostic

I suppose a person can avoid the proposition - I don't know what that would be, maybe "avoider"?

Suppose the proposition is changed to
"Joe went to the store"

A person can accept it as true, reject it as false, or say they don't know. Or they can just not respond, sure :heart:
 
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Andrewn

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It seems to me the terms have changed some time during my lifetime :D

With the proposition:
"God or gods exist",

A person can accept the statement - theist

A person can reject the statement - atheist

A person can say they don't know - agnostic
It looks like most of those who claim to be "atheists" don't know what the term means.

atheist​

noun

/ˈeɪθiɪst/

/ˈeɪθiɪst/
  1. a person who believes that God or gods do not exist
 
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Leaf473

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It looks like most of those who claim to be "atheists" don't know what the term means.

atheist​

noun

/ˈeɪθiɪst/

/ˈeɪθiɪst/
  1. a person who believes that God or gods do not exist
Hi :heart: Where is that definition from?
 
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Leaf473

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Apparently the term Atheism can be used in different ways :)

I read only the first part of the article, but here's some highlights

"...atheism is the psychological state of lacking the belief that God exists."

but then
"...more specifically in the philosophy of religion, the term “atheism” is standardly used to refer to the proposition that God does not exist (or, more broadly, to the proposition that there are no gods). Thus, to be an atheist on this definition, it does not suffice to suspend judgment on whether there is a God, even though that implies a lack of theistic belief. Instead, one must deny that God exists."

___

It seems, then, that the question becomes whether we are in the context of the philosophy of religion when discussing subjects like the thread topic here on Christian Forums
 
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Andrewn

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Hi :heart: Where is that definition from?
I copied this from the Oxford Dictionary. I also checked Merriam-Webster, American Heritage, and Cambridge dictionaries. They all have similar definitions.

However, @FireDragon76 has a point. A lot of people who call themselves "atheists" are not really "atheists." They only reject a particular understanding of God.

NT Wright, perhaps the most famous theologian alive, mentioned that whenever he met a person claiming to be an "atheist," he would respond by saying,

"I probably do not believe in the God you do not believe in, either."
 
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FireDragon76

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NT Wright, perhaps the most famous theologian alive, mentioned that whenever he met a person claiming to be an "atheist," he would respond by saying,

"I probably do not believe in the God you do not believe in, either."

There is also the neologism "apatheist". A great many people in developed countries fit into that category. They simply don't find religious authorities or the answers they provide persuasive. But I still consider it a type of atheism (see below).

Belief in God has its origins in religious identity and belonging. Religious concepts like God are a grid through which people see reality, and can be more or less useful, depending on ones perspective. In my experience, many atheists simply don't see religious authorities and the answers they give as inspiring or useful.

In reality, the difference between theism and atheism, faith and doubt, are not opposites, but they are complementary parts of the human experience, and we need to learn to transcend these dualities if we are going to appreciate things like religion on sober, mature terms.
 
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Andrewn

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There is also the neologism "apatheist". A great many people in developed countries fit into that category. They simply don't find religious authorities or the answers they provide persuasive. But I still consider it a type of atheism (see below).
I like this term. It describes many people I meet well. They don't care whether there is God or not. This term is a mixed bag that replaces older terms like atheist, agnostic, and deist. Apatheists are "practical" atheists.

Belief in God has its origins in religious identity and belonging. Religious concepts like God are a grid through which people see reality, and can be more or less useful, depending on ones perspective.
Certain beliefs about God are harmful. I would probably have left the church if I had been indoctrinated with certain "beliefs" early in life. Hearing about these beliefs later, rejecting them while staying in the church was relatively easy. But I feel sorry for young people who may reject God when their imparted beliefs are questioned later in life.

In reality, the difference between theism and atheism, faith and doubt, are not opposites, but they are complementary parts of the human experience, and we need to learn to transcend these dualities if we are going to appreciate things like religion on sober, mature terms.
Would you unpack this?
 
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FireDragon76

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I like this term. It describes many people I meet well. They don't care whether there is God or not.

I don't think it's a matter of not caring, but relevance and credibility. In the modern world, questions of epistemology have tended to trump ontology. So it's a question of lack of trust in any particular religious authority, or even religion in general.
 
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Andrewn

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I don't think it's a matter of not caring, but relevance and credibility. In the modern world, questions of epistemology have tended to trump ontology. So it's a question of lack of trust in any particular religious authority, or even religion in general.
There is a group of people who distrust religions but believe in God and the afterlife, as presented in NDE's. I've been a fan of Vervaeke and frequently watch his YouTube videos. He calls himself a Zen Neoplatonist! He may belong in this group, but he never mentioned NDE's.
 
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FireDragon76

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There is a group of people who distrust religions but believe in God and the afterlife, as presented in NDE's.

I have studied NDE's. People might come away from the experience more spiritually inclined, but I have yet to see any evidence that NDE's confirm any particular religious worldview- people tend to interpret those experiences through pre-existing cultural paradigms.

've been a fan of Vervaeke and frequently watch his YouTube videos. He calls himself a Zen Neoplatonist! He may belong in this group, but he never mentioned NDE's.

Yes, I have follow him, too. While I appreciate some of his work, some of the people he talks to are grifters, like Jonathan Pageau. They use mysticism to obscure their reactionary cultural agendas.
 
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Andrewn

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Yes, I have follow him, too. While I appreciate some of his work, some of the people he talks to are grifters, like Jonathan Pageau. They use mysticism to obscure their reactionary cultural agendas.
Yes, I dislike certain people Vervaeke talks to, including Jonathan Pageau. Even though I lean toward Eastern Orthodox theology, I can't stand Pageau and do not understand the secret behind his popularity.
 
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com7fy8

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What we need is God Himself.
That’s the claim. Where is the evidence?

And exactly what would you require to be evidence? I get the impression that a number of people want to see what is not evidence of God. So, they are limiting themselves to what they can come up with. If God is so more and better than we are, He can provide much more and better than what humans can look for. Plus, humans can misunderstand whatever God has provided; but if we get with Jesus, He can change us to be able to see and correctly understand any evidence God has provided.

However, if a person persists to require what is not real evidence of God . . . they're in their own trap!

For one thing, we have the universe which God created. If there is God who created the universe, then the universe is evidence of God. But then the problem would be with our inability to see that it is evidence of Him. And in case any of us do correctly see the universe as evidence of Go its Creator, what are we genuinely ready to do about it? Jesus has requirements; and ones might not want to believe they are required of us.

At a crime scene there can be plenty of evidence, but it is no good unless the investigators are able to detect it plus interpret it correctly.

So, for one thing, we do have the universe as evidence. But, evidence of what? If God made it, then I would say it is evidence of God existing and being the Creator, plus He has quite some ability which can help us much more than humans can help themselves. So, the capability evidenced in creation can be evidence of how wise we would be to depend on God and know we need how He is creative.

But ones do not want to depend on God and stay personally guided by Him, all the time. You can even talk with ones claiming to be Christians, who will adamantly insist that God won't guide you to brush your teeth, and you have you own free will to control if and what God can do with you. And then they suffer and mess up in their human strength and capability, not making the best use of their evidence.

And we have Romans 5:5 >

"Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us." (Romans 5:5)

Our Creator's own love is in "our hearts". We can experience this. But this comes through Jesus and His death and burial and resurrection and trusting in Him for all God has for us, with us personally submitting to Him and being personally guided by God in this love. Or else, we are not going to experience and correctly understand and live according to the evidence of God sharing His own love with His children and personally guiding us in this love. I am not aware of any Buddhist talking about experience of personally sharing with God and being personally guided in God's creativity for loving.

But a point is, that God the Creator so capable can in us make us creative for how to love each and every person, better than humans can love. Humans do not come close to being able to create what is in creation. God is so much more capable, and in His love we can share in His creativity. And we can experience this, as evidence for our own selves, though others can't see what is really happening inside ourselves.

One difference between human religion and Christianity is the human is self-produced, therefore limited to that human's ability. And the quality of God in His love is totally different than human, **not what created human senses can detect while humans are self-dependent**! They're on a different spiritual airwave, like the person blasting and trashing his ears with acid rock, right while the smooth jazz radio wave is quietly passing right through the guy's ears. He has evidence going right through his head, that there is smooth jazz, but . . . .

Likewise, you could have blasting rock in a room, and therefore you do not experience the quietly soul-resting smooth jazz also playing in the room. There are Christians like this, who have all their racket of unforgiveness, arguing and complaining, envy, stress, worry and fear, and lusts for useless pleasures dominating them and their thinking, even . . . so they are not hearing God quietly sharing with Him; or, they hear Him, so quiet, right while they are paying their attention to and are **cooperating** with their racket. I have had this happen > I could be going along with my nasty and negative thoughts and feelings, but at the same time I was hearing a quiet and humble voice proving me wrong. And for a while I might hear God but not take heed to Him. But now I tend to be quicker to snap out of my wrong stuff and sooner appreciating what God says.

I have heard things which turned out to be true later. That's evidence, included, for me. And there's the poetry. One time I was walking interstate with the clothes on my back, trusting God to exactly guide me. When two police asked me where I was going, I heard, "Tell them you are going to North Carolina to visit a church." Right! That would get me locked up, but I obeyed, and they, in Massachusetts, said, "Ok", and they let me go. Then in Rhode Island I got locked up. And one time we went on an outing to an eating place . . . north of the Carolina Management Area in Rhode Island. So, poetically I went to a sort of North Carolina. But what about going to a real church? I did walk, years later, to North Carolina and I visited with a church there.

And there is name poetry. A less common name is the name of a friend's cat, my sister's daughter's name, the name of an integrating member of a church where I visit, plus the last name of a niece's family. And one church where I went had three recovering ministers with the same first name, all in recovery and ministering. So, to me this is evidence of how God is not only in control, but with poetry even of people and their names.

This is a small sample of what I have been seeing, I would say not very statistically probable.
 
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