Did Jesus have to keep the Law to achieve atonement and break it's curse?

[pasifika]

I hear what you are saying, but I always thought that Jesus was following the law during His ministry.

KT

yes, He was upholding the Law as a "Teacher" or Gods Righteousness, but He was not under the law as a "student".. When Jesus begun His ministry, it begins with His Baptism and the receiving of the Spirit of God and the endorsement from God. this is like a graduation of the Righteousness in which the law pointed to.

Gal 5:22,23..Fruit of the Spirit, Love,joy,peace,forbearance etc...Against such things there is no law...(since the law is only to train us in order to receive His Spirit or Righteousness, and once we received it then the law is no needed as it fulfills it task.)

 

[Jan001]

Then if we have to keep the letter of the Law, why are not all christians circumcised ???

Paul answered it like this -

Romans 2
26 So, if a man who is uncircumcised keeps the precepts of the law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 Then he who is physically uncircumcised but keeps the law will condemn you who have the written code and circumcision but break the law.

Let us all then walk in the Spirit - keeping the Precepts of the Law as Jesus did which are summed up in Loving God and one's neighbour.

You are correct. We do not keep the circumcision laws of the Old Covenant. We also do not keep the Law of Moses in the New Covenant.

We do keep the Law of Christ in the New Covenant. Jesus' sacrificial death on the cross fulfilled/completed the Law of Moses and thereby made it obsolete -- no longer in force. Jesus' sacrificial death on the cross ratified--put in force his New Covenant and its commandments.

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law (of Moses), so now there is righteousness for everyone who believes (Law of Christ).

Hebrews 8:13 In speaking of “a new covenant,” he has made the first one obsolete. And what is obsolete and growing old will soon disappear.

1 Corinthians 9:21 To those outside the law (of Moses) I became as one outside the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law) so that I might win those outside the law.

 

[Jan001]

In my understanding, the curse of the Law is "The soul that sins shall die". Jesus offered Himself to God for our sins, to give us another chance, as Paul teaches both Jew and Gentile, "that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance." (Acts 26:20)

I think the curse of the Law of Moses is that if you do not keep all 600+ laws written in the Law of Moses, you will not be able to inherit eternal life. [The soul that sins shall die.]

The Israelites in the desert were to be given only the Ten Commandments as their Law, but then they made and worshipped the golden calf and so they were commanded to keep many, many difficult laws in order to discipline them to obey God. These laws became known as the Law of Moses. The Law of Moses was called a yoke. Galatians 3:23-26

The Christian Gentile believers were never made subject to the Law of Moses.

Acts 15:11 Some [Judaizers] who had come down from Judea were instructing the brothers, “Unless you are circumcised according to the Mosaic practice, you cannot be saved.” [Genesis 17:14] 2 Because there arose no little dissension and debate by Paul and Barnabas with them, it was decided that Paul, Barnabas, and some of the others should go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and presbyters about this question. 3 They were sent on their journey by the church, and passed through Phoenicia and Samaria telling of the conversion of the Gentiles, and brought great joy to all the brothers. 4 When they arrived in Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church, as well as by the apostles and the presbyters, and they reported what God had done with them. 5 But some [Judaizers] from the party of the Pharisees who had become believers stood up and said, “It is necessary to circumcise them and direct them to observe the Mosaic law.”
6 The apostles and the presbyters met together to see about this matter. 7 After much debate had taken place, Peter got up and said to them, “My brothers, you are well aware that from early days God made his choice among you that through my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 And God, who knows the heart, bore witness by granting them the holy Spirit just as he did us. 9 He made no distinction between us and them, for by faith he purified their hearts. 10 Why, then, are you now putting God to the test by placing on the shoulders of the disciples a yoke [Mosaic Law] that neither our ancestors nor we have been able to bear? 11 On the contrary, we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they.”

Jewish ritual circumcision is what makes a male person subject to the entire Law of Moses with all its statutes, precepts, and commands. Some Galatian Christians believed the Judaizers who told the Galatian Christians that they needed to be circumcised and to keep the Law of Moses in order to be saved. Paul told these Galatians that if they were circumcised, they had fallen from grace and were separated from Christ, and therefore they were no longer saved. They will have to confess their sin in order to become saved again. 1 John 1:9

Galatians 3:1-7 O stupid Galatians! Who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? 2 I want to learn only this from you: did you receive the Spirit from works of the law, or from faith in what you heard? 3 Are you so stupid? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now ending with the flesh? [circumcision] 4 Did you experience so many things in vain?—if indeed it was in vain. 5 Does, then, the one who supplies the Spirit to you and works mighty deeds among you do so from works of the law r from faith in what you heard? 6 Thus Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” 7 Realize then that it is those who have faith who are children of Abraham....13 Christ ransomed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who hangs on a tree,” 14 that the blessing of Abraham might be extended to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.....19 Why, then, the law? It was added for transgressions, until the descendant [Jesus] came to whom the promise had been made; it was promulgated by angels at the hand of a mediator. [Moses]

Galatians 5:3-5 Once again I declare to every man who has himself circumcised that he is bound to observe the entire law. 4 You are separated from Christ, you who are trying to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5 For through the Spirit, by faith, we await the hope of righteousness.

Christ's sacrifice and his new covenant law are what make the Law of Moses obsolete:

Ephesians 2:11-18 Therefore, remember that at one time you, Gentiles in the flesh, called the uncircumcision by those called the circumcision, which is done in the flesh by human hands, 12 were at that time without Christ, alienated from the community of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have become near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, he who made both one and broke down the dividing wall of enmity, through his flesh, 15 abolishing the law with its commandments and legal claims, that he might create in himself one new person in place of the two, thus establishing peace, 16 and might reconcile both with God, in one body, through the cross, putting that enmity to death by it. 17 He came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near, 18 for through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father.

 

[Studyman]

I think the curse of the Law of Moses is that if you do not keep all 600+ laws written in the Law of Moses, you will not be able to inherit eternal life. [The soul that sins shall die.]

I have heard this teaching before from the religious kingdoms of this world since I was a kid. That God placed on the necks of men who trusted Him, 613 laws they call "A yoke of Bondage", and when a man didn't keep " all 600+ laws written in the Law of Moses", God killed them or denied them entry into His Kingdom. So Jesus had to come and save mankind from God's Laws they preach are a curse to mankind. I also believed this teaching for a time, until I actually studied the Oracles of God for myself. And when I did, I found out that God never placed 613 laws on the necks of even ONE MAN. Not Ever. In fact, God showed Mercy and longsuffering unmatched by the men of this world. Caleb, Joshua, David, Shadrack, Zacharias, Simeon, Anna are just a few of the example of Faithful men and women who "Lived by" the Words of God that this world's religious sects and businesses call "A Yoke of Bondage".

I asked myself, why are these men promoting lies about God? And then I read the warnings of the Jesus "of the Bible".

Matt. 24: 3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For "many" shall come in my name, saying, I (Jesus) am Christ; and "shall" deceive many.

And this was true for me for a time, when I also believed the false teaching (Definition of being deceived) that God placed on the necks of men who trusted Him, "600+ Laws" impossible to follow, and then denied them into His Kingdom if they fell in disobedience to one of them.

I would challenge you to find even ONE person in the entire Bible that God placed 600+ laws on the necks of, when they turned to Him.

 

[Studyman]

The Israelites in the desert were to be given only the Ten Commandments as their Law,

This also, is a popular religious philosophy of the religions of this world, but if a man actually studies the bible for themselves, they will find that this too, is not accurate.

Passover and Feast of Unleavened bread were also given to the Homeborn (Israelites) and the Stranger that sojourned among them (Gentile).

but then they made and worshipped the golden calf and so they were commanded to keep many, many difficult laws in order to discipline them to obey God. These laws became known as the Law of Moses. The Law of Moses was called a yoke. Galatians 3:23-26

They were given a temporary Priesthood "After the Order of Aaron" until the True Priest of God, "After the Order of Melchizedek" should come. This Priesthood Law is what was prophesied to change in the New Covenant.

#1. How men received the Laws of God.

#2. How forgiveness of sins were provided for.

You can read this for yourself in Jer. 31.

This Law was to "lead them to Christ" their true High Priest and Savior (Lamb of God). Zacharias, Simeon and Anna all understood this even before Jesus was even born. You can find this as well by reading Luke 1&2.

It was this Priesthood Law requiring men to bring an animal sacrifice to a Levite Priest, that was "ADDED" because of Transgressions. Abraham was not under this Law as it wasn't "ADDED" until 430 years after God said to Isaac, "And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; Because that Abraham obeyed "my" voice, and kept "my" charge, "my" commandments, "my" statutes, and "my" laws.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians 3:23-26&version=NABRE

The Christian Gentile believers were never made subject to the Law of Moses.

Acts 15:11 Some [Judaizers] who had come down from Judea were instructing the brothers,

What is a Judaizer? It is a faithful man who "Yield's Himself a servant to obey God" as Paul was, and Jesus was? Or is a Judaizer a man like the Pharisees, who "Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. (Mark 7:9)

“Unless you are circumcised according to the Mosaic practice, you cannot be saved.” [Genesis 17:14] 2

This is true as Moses also teaches.

Deut. 10: 6 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked. 17 For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:

I would invite you to hear Paul.

1 Cor. 9: 9 For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen? 10 Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For "our sakes", no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.

Do you think God cares about the loose skin from the penis? And given it was against God's Law to walk around naked; how would others know if a man is circumcised? Do you believe that they flashed their private parts to others, to show their righteousness?

No my friend, the Pharisees had created their own traditions concerning Circumcision and were not Circumcised in the heart. You don't understand this because you are infected by the Leaven, "God placed 613 laws, a Yoke of Bondage, on the necks of every man who turned to Him.

My hope is that you will believe the warnings of the Jesus, "of the bible", and Take heed of this world's religious many "who call Jesus Lord, Lord.

Because there arose no little dissension and debate by Paul and Barnabas with them, it was decided that Paul, Barnabas, and some of the others should go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and presbyters about this question. 3 They were sent on their journey by the church, and passed through Phoenicia and Samaria telling of the conversion of the Gentiles, and brought great joy to all the brothers. 4 When they arrived in Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church, as well as by the apostles and the presbyters, and they reported what God had done with them. 5 But some [Judaizers] from the party of the Pharisees who had become believers stood up and said, “It is necessary to circumcise them and direct them to observe the Mosaic law.”

Jesus said over and over that the Pharisees were disobedient to God and HE told me that Moses gave them His Father's Law, yet they didn't Keep His Fathers Law? Paul said of them "They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16)

But now, this world's religious kingdoms teach that they must have suddenly become obedient to God and were trying to get the new converts to obey God as well, and the Disciples were against teaching the Gentiles to obey God.

You believe this way, because you have been taught by this world's religions that God placed a Yoke of Bondage on the necks of men who turned to Him. Jesus explains this as well, as HE said "A little leaven leavens the whole lump". So everything you read or hear is through the prism of the falsehood that God placed 613 laws on the necks of men who trusted Him. My hope is that you might consider the warnings of the Jesus of the bible, and allow the Holy scriptures to "correct you", as Paul teaches they are for.

2 Tim. 3: 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished "unto all good works".

6 The apostles and the presbyters met together to see about this matter. 7 After much debate had taken place, Peter got up and said to them, “My brothers, you are well aware that from early days God made his choice among you that through my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 And God, who knows the heart, bore witness by granting them the holy Spirit just as he did us. 9 He made no distinction between us and them, for by faith he purified their hearts. 10 Why, then, are you now putting God to the test by placing on the shoulders of the disciples a yoke [Mosaic Law] that neither our ancestors nor we have been able to bear? 11 On the contrary, we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they.”

Can you show me in the Law and Prophets where the Pharisees, or their fathers, followed the Laws of God you call the "Mosiac Law"? Listen to the Jesus "of the bible".

Matthew 23: 1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, 2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: 3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, "and do not". 4 For they (Pharisees and Scribes, NOT God as you are promoting to others) "bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne", and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

Hear Stephen in the Spirit as he speaks to the Pharisees and Scribes:

Acts 7: 51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as "your fathers did", so do ye. 52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: 53 Who have received the law "by the disposition of angels", and "have not kept it"

But now you want me to believe that it wasn't the false prophets, or disobedient Jews that placed a Yoke of Bondage, (Their own judgments, statues and traditions) as the Jesus "of the bible" teaches, but you want me to believe that it was GOD who placed the Yoke of Bondage that they, and their fathers could not bear.

I truly hope you might consider what is actually written, and heed the warnings of the Scriptures, and they are many, about the teaching of this world's religious institutions, sects and businesses.

And in conclusion, what did the Disciples lead the Gentile converts to do?

Acts 15: 17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. 18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles "are turned to God":

20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, (Law of Moses) and from fornication, (Law of Moses) and from things strangled, (Law of Moses) and from blood. (Law of Moses)

21 For Moses of old time hath in every city "them that preach him", (Pharisees and scribes) being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

Isn't this the exact same thing Jesus instructed the Disciples and the multitudes to do, when HE walked on the earth?

My hope is that you will consider these Biblical Facts, and be "renewed in the spirit of your mind".

 

[Carl Emerson]

While the exchange on issues around the Law is important, I wonder if we could get back to the issue of the OP ?

What did Paul mean by the curse of the law?

Did Jesus have to perfectly keep the Law to break its curse ?

Can a Christian still unwittingly labour under the curse of the Law and need to be set free ?

 

[bling]

Christ kept the Law to please God, any other reason is virtually insignificant.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Christ kept the Law to please God, any other reason is virtually insignificant.

Then why did Paul speak about it in Gal 3 ?

 

[Studyman]

Then why did Paul speak about it in Gal 3 ?

It's important to understand what "LAW" the Pharisees were promoting for remission of sins in Galatians and Romans. A "LAW" Abraham didn't have, that was to be in place until the True Priest of God, the true "unblemished lamb" should come. Hebrews 7-10 speaks to what Law changed at the advent of the Prophesied High Priest of God.

This world's religions teach that Paul is speaking about God's instruction in righteousness, His definition of Good, Holy, Clean, etc. But we know this isn't true because the "LAW" that was being promoted, was promoted by the Pharisees who taught for doctrines the Commandments of men and not God. Who Jesus said, "Full well transgressed God's Commandments that they might keep their own traditions".

A great place to go to understand what Paul was dealing with is in Isaiah 1. Here we see a religious people who "Professed to know God, but by works denied Him". And yet every week they would come to Him with the blood of an innocent being, as per the Law, to justify their sins.

As both Paul and Isaiah point out, "Man is not justified by "works of the Law".

Is. 1:10 Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah. 11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats. 12 When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?

16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil; 17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow. 18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:

20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

Paul teaches the exact same thing in Roman's 2: 5-11. He isn't teaching against his own teaching in Romans, in Galatians, in my view.

 

[Carl Emerson]

It's important to understand what "LAW" the Pharisees were promoting for remission of sins in Galatians and Romans. A "LAW" Abraham didn't have, that was to be in place until the True Priest of God, the true "unblemished lamb" should come. Hebrews 7-10 speaks to what Law changed at the advent of the Prophesied High Priest of God.

This world's religions teach that Paul is speaking about God's instruction in righteousness, His definition of Good, Holy, Clean, etc. But we know this isn't true because the "LAW" that was being promoted, was promoted by the Pharisees who taught for doctrines the Commandments of men and not God. Who Jesus said, "Full well transgressed God's Commandments that they might keep their own traditions".

A great place to go to understand what Paul was dealing with is in Isaiah 1. Here we see a religious people who "Professed to know God, but by works denied Him". And yet every week they would come to Him with the blood of an innocent being, as per the Law, to justify their sins.

As both Paul and Isaiah point out, "Man is not justified by "works of the Law".

Is. 1:10 Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah. 11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats. 12 When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?

16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil; 17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow. 18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:

20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

Paul teaches the exact same thing in Roman's 2: 5-11. He isn't teaching against his own teaching in Romans, in Galatians, in my view.

Yes... all good, but this was not the matter I was touching on.

Gal 3 talks of being set free from the Curse of the Law.

10 For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.” 11 Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, “The righteous man shall live by faith.” 12 However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, “He who practices them shall live by them.” 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”— 14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

 

[Studyman]

Yes... all good, but this was not the matter I was touching on.

Gal 3 talks of being set free from the Curse of the Law.

10 For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.” 11 Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, “The righteous man shall live by faith.”

What does it mean to be "of the works of the Law" or "Justified by the law"?

We know all men have sinned and are in need of Justification. It would be so kind of you to engage with me on this point if you would, as it is central to question you asked. According to the "LAW" when a man transgressed the Commandments of God, what was he required to do in order for his sins to be forgiven "according to the Law"?

And so, if a man followed the Law concerning "being justified", would this man not then be "of the works of the Law"? Would his justification not then come from "The works of the law"?

What I am asking is "What are these "Works" that were required by the Law for justification, that the Pharisees and their fathers in Isaiah were still promoting?

12 However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, “He who practices them shall live by them.”

What "LAW" is not of Faith? Is "Thou shall Love the Lord thy God with all thy heart and all thy soul" not a Law of Faith? But killing an innocent being for the purpose of covering our sins, is not a Law of Faith, rather, "Works of the Law for justification.

13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”—

What was the purpose of Christ's Death? Was it not to fulfill the Sacrifice required for the justification of Sins? A sacrifice required by the Law?

14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Deut. 8: 3 And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live.

Was this not the Faith of Abraham?

 

[Carl Emerson]

What does it mean to be "of the works of the Law" or "Justified by the law"?

I think the passage is speaking about what we put our trust in - regulation or relationship.

The rich young ruler was comfortable about keeping the law but uncomfortable about following Jesus.

As to what was the Law Paul referred to - what would his audience have understood by this ? My guess is that it was the written Law that was impossible for anyone except God to keep. So if that was where one hung ones hat, then this would be an act of self righteousness.

 

[Studyman]

I think the passage is speaking about what we put our trust in - regulation or relationship.

I would agree, but this then begs the question, "what did the Pharisees who were bewitching the Galatians, put their trust in, for "justification"?

They were promoting a LAW for remission of sins, they trusted in a "LAW" for remission of sins. What was the Law?

Now you and I have been taught since our youth, that the Pharisees were trying to earn salvation by obeying "God's Laws". I believed this for many years until I started reading what Jesus and Paul and the Law and Prophets actually said when describing the Pharisees and their fathers. Jesus said they rejected, actually "Full well rejected" the Commandments of God, in order to live by their own religious doctrines and traditions. Paul said they were ignorant of God's Righteousness and went about to establish their own righteousness, and "have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God". Stephen said they were given the Law by the dispensations of angels, and did not keep it, and their fathers who killed the Prophets didn't keep them either. Jesus said Moses gave them the Law, but none of them keep the Law. Ezekiel said But the house of Israel rebelled against me in the wilderness: they walked not in my statutes, and they despised my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them; and my sabbaths they greatly polluted".

So the teaching of this world's religious institutions, "who come in Christ's Name", that the Pharisees were trying to get to New converts and Galatians to Obey God's Law, are teaching the exact opposite of Jesus, the Law and Prophets, and Paul concerning the relationship the Pharisees had with God. Didn't Jesus and Paul and the Law and Prophets warn us about the religions of this world, "who profess to know God, but in works they deny Him", not to deceived (Convinced of something that is not true) by them?

This thread was a perfect place to examine these things in seeking God's Truth and is central to the question you asked.

"did-jesus-have-to-keep-the-law-to-achieve-atonement-and-break-its-curse".

Atonement is only necessary for a man who transgressed God's Laws. Jesus kept the Law, walked in the instruction of righteousness that God created for mankind and therefore didn't need atonement. And HE offered His Own Righteous Blood to me, that I may have a sacrifice for my transgressions, as per God's Law, so that I might receive atonement, so that I might be reconciled to God and forgiven.

This is the debate between Paul and the mainstream religions of his time. What did the Pharisees promote for the remission of sins? They promoted a Law. But they rejected the 10 commandments according to the Jesus "of the Bible". They refused to submit to God's Righteousness according to Paul. They despised God's Judgments, according to Ezekiel.

So in the interest of seeking Biblical Truth, I asked you the question, "What Law did they trust in for atonement?

This is why I asked, "Before the Prophesied High Priest of God, the Christ Jesus came, "What Law was required for the remission of sins?" It is an easy question to answer. And yet, when I ask most mainstream preachers the question, they deflect, change the subject, ignore the question etc. I am so thankful that you seem somewhat interested in discussing the topic at hand.

What Law/regulation did they trust in, for forgiveness/justification, since they rejected God's Commandments, despised His Judgments and went about to establish their own righteousness instead of submitting to God's Righteousness?

It's a relevant and important question in seeking God's Truth.

The rich young ruler was comfortable about keeping the law but uncomfortable about following Jesus.

But you just said below that it is impossible for this young ruler to keep God's Laws and didn't Jesus point out that this young man placed his possessions before God, which is in direct violation of the First and Greatest Commandment?

Therefore, which of these two scenarios are more likely to be true.

#1. The young rich ruler "SAID" he obeyed God from his youth, but had deceived himself by not looking into a mirror and realizing his possessions were his god. And walked away when Jesus exposed this in him, because he cared more for his possessions, than "yielding himself" to obey God as Jesus Himself told him he should do, to enter life.

#2. He obeyed all of God's Commandments blameless, but didn't like Jesus.

As to what was the Law Paul referred to - what would his audience have understood by this ?

They would have known what Law the Pharisees were promoting for the remission of sins.

My guess is that it was the written Law that was impossible for anyone except God to keep.

Yes, I too have been influenced by this wicked doctrine and judgment against God. Which implies, once the lipstick is removed, that God placed impossible Laws on the necks of men who trusted Him, lied to them by telling them His Laws were righteous, and that they "could" keep them, and that they were for their wellbeing, then slaughtered them by the thousands when they disobeyed. So Jesus had to come and save us from His Father's Laws that they preach to the world "IS" the curse on all mankind.

Although this judgment against God is popular and promoted by many, "who come in Christ's Name", it cannot be supported by anything actually taught or written in the Holy Scriptures.

I would invite you to consider Abraham, Noah, Caleb, Joshua, Elisha, David, Shadrack, Zacharias (Luke 1), Simeon, Anna. And also consider Hebrews 11 and 12.

1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, 2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. 3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds. 4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

There were obedient servants of God who were under a lot more duress and danger "yielding themselves" to God than you and I are. To preach to others that I cannot repent and "Go and sin no more" makes Jesus out as an untrustworthy teacher. I hope you might reconsider this popular religious philosophy promoted by this world's institutions and turn away from the teachers who promote it. As Jesus said "Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities."

So if that was where one hung ones hat, then this would be an act of self righteousness.

1 John 3: 7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that "doeth" righteousness is righteous, even as "he is righteous".

Find the Truth of the Scriptures concerning what LAW the Pharisees promoted Carl. Answer the question according to the Scriptures. Read Is. 1 and your understanding of Paul's teaching will open up if you are seeking God's Truth. Don't underestimate the power of religion and their traditions. To "many", their religion and religious traditions, manmade high days, judgments, etc., is their most prized possession. It was for the Pharisees.

Thanks for the discussion.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I would agree, but this then begs the question, "what did the Pharisees who were bewitching the Galatians, put their trust in, for "justification"?

They were promoting a LAW for remission of sins, they trusted in a "LAW" for remission of sins. What was the Law?

Now you and I have been taught since our youth, that the Pharisees were trying to earn salvation by obeying "God's Laws". I believed this for many years until I started reading what Jesus and Paul and the Law and Prophets actually said when describing the Pharisees and their fathers. Jesus said they rejected, actually "Full well rejected" the Commandments of God, in order to live by their own religious doctrines and traditions. Paul said they were ignorant of God's Righteousness and went about to establish their own righteousness, and "have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God". Stephen said they were given the Law by the dispensations of angels, and did not keep it, and their fathers who killed the Prophets didn't keep them either. Jesus said Moses gave them the Law, but none of them keep the Law. Ezekiel said But the house of Israel rebelled against me in the wilderness: they walked not in my statutes, and they despised my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them; and my sabbaths they greatly polluted".

So the teaching of this world's religious institutions, "who come in Christ's Name", that the Pharisees were trying to get to New converts and Galatians to Obey God's Law, are teaching the exact opposite of Jesus, the Law and Prophets, and Paul concerning the relationship the Pharisees had with God. Didn't Jesus and Paul and the Law and Prophets warn us about the religions of this world, "who profess to know God, but in works they deny Him", not to deceived (Convinced of something that is not true) by them?

This thread was a perfect place to examine these things in seeking God's Truth and is central to the question you asked.

"did-jesus-have-to-keep-the-law-to-achieve-atonement-and-break-its-curse".

Atonement is only necessary for a man who transgressed God's Laws. Jesus kept the Law, walked in the instruction of righteousness that God created for mankind and therefore didn't need atonement. And HE offered His Own Righteous Blood to me, that I may have a sacrifice for my transgressions, as per God's Law, so that I might receive atonement, so that I might be reconciled to God and forgiven.

This is the debate between Paul and the mainstream religions of his time. What did the Pharisees promote for the remission of sins? They promoted a Law. But they rejected the 10 commandments according to the Jesus "of the Bible". They refused to submit to God's Righteousness according to Paul. They despised God's Judgments, according to Ezekiel.

So in the interest of seeking Biblical Truth, I asked you the question, "What Law did they trust in for atonement?

This is why I asked, "Before the Prophesied High Priest of God, the Christ Jesus came, "What Law was required for the remission of sins?" It is an easy question to answer. And yet, when I ask most mainstream preachers the question, they deflect, change the subject, ignore the question etc. I am so thankful that you seem somewhat interested in discussing the topic at hand.

What Law/regulation did they trust in, for forgiveness/justification, since they rejected God's Commandments, despised His Judgments and went about to establish their own righteousness instead of submitting to God's Righteousness?

It's a relevant and important question in seeking God's Truth.



But you just said below that it is impossible for this young ruler to keep God's Laws and didn't Jesus point out that this young man placed his possessions before God, which is in direct violation of the First and Greatest Commandment?

Therefore, which of these two scenarios are more likely to be true.

#1. The young rich ruler "SAID" he obeyed God from his youth, but had deceived himself by not looking into a mirror and realizing his possessions were his god. And walked away when Jesus exposed this in him, because he cared more for his possessions, than "yielding himself" to obey God as Jesus Himself told him he should do, to enter life.

#2. He obeyed all of God's Commandments blameless, but didn't like Jesus.




They would have known what Law the Pharisees were promoting for the remission of sins.



Yes, I too have been influenced by this wicked doctrine and judgment against God. Which implies, once the lipstick is removed, that God placed impossible Laws on the necks of men who trusted Him, lied to them by telling them His Laws were righteous, and that they "could" keep them, and that they were for their wellbeing, then slaughtered them by the thousands when they disobeyed. So Jesus had to come and save us from His Father's Laws that they preach to the world "IS" the curse on all mankind.

Although this judgment against God is popular and promoted by many, "who come in Christ's Name", it cannot be supported by anything actually taught or written in the Holy Scriptures.

I would invite you to consider Abraham, Noah, Caleb, Joshua, Elisha, David, Shadrack, Zacharias (Luke 1), Simeon, Anna. And also consider Hebrews 11 and 12.

1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, 2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. 3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds. 4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

There were obedient servants of God who were under a lot more duress and danger "yielding themselves" to God than you and I are. To preach to others that I cannot repent and "Go and sin no more" makes Jesus out as an untrustworthy teacher. I hope you might reconsider this popular religious philosophy promoted by this world's institutions and turn away from the teachers who promote it. As Jesus said "Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities."



1 John 3: 7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that "doeth" righteousness is righteous, even as "he is righteous".

Find the Truth of the Scriptures concerning what LAW the Pharisees promoted Carl. Answer the question according to the Scriptures. Read Is. 1 and your understanding of Paul's teaching will open up if you are seeking God's Truth. Don't underestimate the power of religion and their traditions. To "many", their religion and religious traditions, manmade high days, judgments, etc., is their most prized possession. It was for the Pharisees.

Thanks for the discussion.

Paul answers your question in Romans 8 - However I would never claim to have the perfection of Jesus and Paul didn't either.

I don't see mainstream teaching remiss on this issue as you claim - where did you learn to dismiss all but what you were taught ?

 

[Studyman]

Paul answers your question in Romans 8 - However I would never claim to have the perfection of Jesus and Paul didn't either.

But that was Paul's Goal, to be perfect, even as the God and Father of the Lord's Christ was perfect, yes? You believe as "many", that what Jesus instructed for mankind is a "Yoke of Bondage" impossible for a man to accomplish. Paul clearly did not adopt this popular religious philosophy.

Phil. 3: 12 Not as though "I had already attained", either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. 13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, 14 I "press toward the mark" for the prize of the high calling of God "in Christ Jesus". (He was perfect, even as His father is perfect, at least the Jesus "of the Bible" was) 15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

Shall we not examine and consider what Paul actually teaches?

Concerning Romans 8, the question is still here.

1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh,

I know "many" will not engage in a deeper discussion concerning theirr own thread, and it is frustrating. Nevertheless, I will ask and post what is actually written, for someone reading along who might be interested in the discussion.

What is it that the Law could not do? Can the LAW of God teach me how to correctly Love God, and myself, and then Love my neighbors as myself? Is God's Law the instruction in Righteousness that Abraham, Caleb, David, Zacharias, Simeon, Anna and of course the Man Jesus walked in? Is God's Law "Good"? Holy? Just and Righteous? Is God's Law Spiritual? The answer to every one of these questions is undeniably "YES", according to Scriptures.

Gods Law can do all these things for those who walk in them, which is why Jesus and His Father and Paul said to keep them. "That it might be well with you".

But what couldn't the LAW of God do? You refuse to answer, but someone should answer. According to Paul and Hebrews, the LAW couldn't take away sins. The Law couldn't forgive us. The LAW couldn't provide atonement for us or justify us of our past sins.

There was a Temporary LAW, put in place until the True Priest of God, "After the Order of Melchizedek" should come. This LAW was ADDED 430 years after God said "that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws", because of Transgressions, until God's Prophesied Priest should come. All men have sinned, and were under this ADDED Law for atonement, (A LAW Abraham didn't have) "Till the Seed should Come". The sacrifices required therein for forgiveness, were a shadow of what the True Lamb of God would do. This "LAW" was to lead us to Christ for justification/remission of sins. After the Christ came, there was no more need for this carnal Law. You can see this in that Jesus forgave sins, but never sprinkled the blood of a goat on an alter, "as per the temporary ADDED Law". He gave His Own Blood once and for all, "fulfilling the Law". The Pharisees were still promoting their version of the Priesthood works "After the Order of Aaron", for remission of Sins. Was this not Paul's debate with them?

This is why I ask the question about what "LAW" the Pharisees were living by and promoting. I even pointed out the falsehood promoted by "MANY" who come in Christ's Name, who preach that the Pharisees were obeying God's Laws, and I showed you the reason why, that it was Jesus, the Prophets, and Paul who defined the Pharisees for me. A truth I showed you, but like the rich ruler, you just walked away. This is because religion, and religious traditions of men are more important to "many" than Gods actual Word. Please do not underestimate the power of "religion". Of all the things Jesus could have warned about, "Many who come in His Name" to deceive, was His greatest worry for His Disciples.

3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

I am now forgiven, and God, His Prophets, His Son, Paul, and all the Apostles taught that after this has happened for me, I should "Now Go and Sin no more". Why would they all teach this? Paul tells us: 4 That the "righteousness of the law" might be fulfilled in us, who "walk not" after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition, is walking after the flesh, not after the Spirit.

I don't see mainstream teaching remiss on this issue as you claim

And the young rich ruler that you refuse to answer my questions about, didn't see he had put his possessions before God.

And you believe the Pharisees were trying to earn salvation by obeying God's Laws, even after I posted the Words of the same Jesus you claim to follow, teaching the exact opposite.

Is it possible that the Jesus "of the Bible" is Right, and the religious philosophies of this world you have adopted and are now promoting are wrong?

And didn't Jesus and Paul both warn specifically about "many" who come in Christ's Name, who call HIM, Lord, Lord, who "Transform themselves" into apostles of Christ? Shall I just reject and/or ignore all these warnings, to justify the philosophies of a specific religious sect of this world I may have adopted?

If you are not interested in Biblical Truth, but just want to promote your specific adopted religion, just say so. But if you are seeking to understand Paul, would it not be beneficial to examine what he actually says, and not just what Kenneth Copeland or the Pope or another preacher tells us he says?

- where did you learn to dismiss all but what you were taught ?

Who taught you that God placed impossible to obey Laws on the necks of men who trusted Him? It wasn't God and it wasn't the Jesus "of the Bible". I have heard of this teaching of men, and I dismissed it because the Word of God doesn't teach it.

Who taught you the Pharisees obeyed and promoted God's Laws? It wasn't God and it wasn't the Jesus "of the bible". I have heard of this teaching of man and dismissed it because the Word of God doesn't teach it.

Are we not to be "Learned of the Father"?

If you are Biblically incorrect concerning these two topics, and clearly you are according to Jesus' Own Words, then how can you know or understand what the "Curse" of the Law is in the context of Paul's teaching?

And if you walk away from Jesus' own Words concerning these topics, how is that any different than what the Rich young ruler did, or the "Christians" in Matt. 7:22?

This is such a great topic, and a wonderful study. Please consider, not what popular religions of this world promote, but what the Scriptures actually say.

 

[johansen]

So when the Law requires adulterers to put to death and Sabbath breakers to be stoned - what then ???

What Jesus did was quote the law to them.

Which requires that the two witness who accused the person of sin and brought them to the sanhedrion, be the ones who cast the first stones.

They were not present....

 

[Studyman]

What Jesus did was quote the law to them.

Which requires that the two witness who accused the person of sin and brought them to the sanhedrion, be the ones who cast the first stones.

They were not present....

Very perfectly true and accurate description of the event. Good for you to examine what is actually written.

Deut. 17: 6 At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death. 7 The hands of the witnesses "shall be first" upon him to put him to death, and afterward the hands of all the people. So thou shalt put the evil away from among you.

John 8:7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him "first cast a stone" at her.

One by one they realized Jesus was onto them, as they brought this charade to Trick Him, nothing at all about the woman. And they all knew they too, were guilty to be stoned.

9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst. 10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath "no man condemned thee"?

There were no witnesses.

11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

Jesus followed the Law of God perfectly, right down to the Letter. For Him to condemn her to death would have been a direct violation of God's Perfect Law.

Very astute and rare insight into the Biblical Truth of this story. Good for you Johansen.

 

[Carl Emerson]

So why do you think Paul said this...

Gal 3:5 So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?

and this...

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse...

and this...

Gal 3:11 Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, “The righteous man shall live by faith.”

So if you think as Paul's opponents did, that we are still under the Law please state this clearly and we can move on.

 

[Studyman]

So why do you think Paul said this...

Gal 3:5 So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?

How did Jesus forgive sins? Did He take a goat to a Levite Priest, as per God's Law, and sprinkle its blood on the alter in the Temple? Or did HE usher in a New Priesthood as Prophesied by the Law and Prophets? What were the Pharisees promoting for the remission of Sins? Why did they sell sheep and goats in the Temple?

This is why I asked you how sins were forgiven before the New Priest "After the Order of Melchizedek" should come. A Priest the Pharisees rejected.

and this...

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse...

If I sinned, and followed the old temporary Priesthood Law, and killed a goat in front of a Levite Priest, that would make me "Of the Works of the Law". That is what the Pharisees were still promoting as they were still promoting the Priesthood Law "After the Order of Aaron". Hebrews 7-10 explains this perfectly.

Heb. 10: 3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

Paul is fighting against the mainstream religion of his time, the religious sect of the Pharisees, who were still promoting the old Levitical Priesthood "works of the Law" for remission of sins.

Modern religions would have me believe the Pharisees were trying to get the Galatians to Love God and Love their neighbor, and the Laws that hang on these two Greatest Commandments. Don't be deceived by these charlatans.

and this...

Gal 3:11 Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, “The righteous man shall live by faith.”

Yes, as I have tried to tell you. The LAW cannot take away Transgression of the Law. It is good, teaches us how to be righteous, teaches us how to treat others, teaches us how to serve God. But it cannot take away sins. Only Belief/Faith in God, that HE provided His Son as the One Sacrifice, that through HIM is the remission of sins.

The Pharisees were still promoting the old Priesthood, and the sacrificial "works" required therein, "Till the True Lamb of God should come". They didn't believe Jesus was this Prophesied Priest. Had they obeyed God's Laws like Zacharias, Simeon, Anna, and the Wise Men, they would have known Jesus when HE came, like they did.

So if you think as Paul's opponents did, that we are still under the Law please state this clearly and we can move on.

Here is what Paul actually said to the Body of Christ.

Romans 6: 15 What then? "shall we sin", because we are not under the law, (Being "dead" wherein we were held) but under grace? ("Alive" to Serve Another) God forbid. (That means NO! Carl)

16 Know ye not, that to whom "ye yield yourselves" servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin "unto death", or of "obedience" unto righteousness?

17 But God be thanked, that ye "were" the servants of sin, but "ye have obeyed from the heart" that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

18 Being then made free "from sin", (Not God's instruction in righteousness) ye became the "servants of (God's) righteousness".

If the Galatians had converted to the religious sect of the Pharisees, who taught for doctrines the commandments of men, and not God, then they would become servants of the religious sect of the Pharisees who full well rejected the Commandments of God so they could live in their manmade religious traditions. They would become dead again, as Paul clearly tells you here.

It would be no different for us today. If we adopt a religious sect of this world that teaches for doctrines the commandments of men, and not God. A religious sect Who rejects God's Judgments and creates their own. Who rejects God's Laws HE created for the wellbeing of His People, then we become just like the Pharisees. And it doesn't matter if we call Jesus Lord, Lord, if we yield ourselves a servant to obey another, HE doesn't know us.

At least according to the Words of the Jesus "of the Bible". You are free to believe as you wish.

 

[Carl Emerson]

How did Jesus forgive sins? Did He take a goat to a Levite Priest, as per God's Law, and sprinkle its blood on the alter in the Temple? Or did HE usher in a New Priesthood as Prophesied by the Law and Prophets? What were the Pharisees promoting for the remission of Sins? Why did they sell sheep and goats in the Temple?

This is why I asked you how sins were forgiven before the New Priest "After the Order of Melchizedek" should come. A Priest the Pharisees rejected.



If I sinned, and followed the old temporary Priesthood Law, and killed a goat in front of a Levite Priest, that would make me "Of the Works of the Law". That is what the Pharisees were still promoting as they were still promoting the Priesthood Law "After the Order of Aaron". Hebrews 7-10 explains this perfectly.

Heb. 10: 3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

Paul is fighting against the mainstream religion of his time, the religious sect of the Pharisees, who were still promoting the old Levitical Priesthood "works of the Law" for remission of sins.

Modern religions would have me believe the Pharisees were trying to get the Galatians to Love God and Love their neighbor, and the Laws that hang on these two Greatest Commandments. Don't be deceived by these charlatans.



Yes, as I have tried to tell you. The LAW cannot take away Transgression of the Law. It is good, teaches us how to be righteous, teaches us how to treat others, teaches us how to serve God. But it cannot take away sins. Only Belief/Faith in God, that HE provided His Son as the One Sacrifice, that through HIM is the remission of sins.

The Pharisees were still promoting the old Priesthood, and the sacrificial "works" required therein, "Till the True Lamb of God should come". They didn't believe Jesus was this Prophesied Priest. Had they obeyed God's Laws like Zacharias, Simeon, Anna, and the Wise Men, they would have known Jesus when HE came, like they did.




Here is what Paul actually said to the Body of Christ.

Romans 6: 15 What then? "shall we sin", because we are not under the law, (Being "dead" wherein we were held) but under grace? ("Alive" to Serve Another) God forbid. (That means NO! Carl)

16 Know ye not, that to whom "ye yield yourselves" servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin "unto death", or of "obedience" unto righteousness?

17 But God be thanked, that ye "were" the servants of sin, but "ye have obeyed from the heart" that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

18 Being then made free "from sin", (Not God's instruction in righteousness) ye became the "servants of (God's) righteousness".

If the Galatians had converted to the religious sect of the Pharisees, who taught for doctrines the commandments of men, and not God, then they would become servants of the religious sect of the Pharisees who full well rejected the Commandments of God so they could live in their manmade religious traditions. They would become dead again, as Paul clearly tells you here.

It would be no different for us today. If we adopt a religious sect of this world that teaches for doctrines the commandments of men, and not God. A religious sect Who rejects God's Judgments and creates their own. Who rejects God's Laws HE created for the wellbeing of His People, then we become just like the Pharisees. And it doesn't matter if we call Jesus Lord, Lord, if we yield ourselves a servant to obey another, HE doesn't know us.

At least according to the Words of the Jesus "of the Bible". You are free to believe as you wish.

I think you are saying we are not under the Law... Correct? (a one word answer will suffice)