Did Jesus have to keep the Law to achieve atonement and break it's curse?

[KevinT]

Maybe take a look at Deut 28 and Galatians 3.

Deut 28 contains a lengthy description of all the bad things ("curses") that will follow the Israelites if they fail to follow God.

Paul, in Galations, does say "13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.”[h] 14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit."

However, I find Paul to say different things at different times and in different circumstances. So I view him like the 3 blind men describing an elephant -- with one man feeling the tail, one man the feet and the last man the tusks.

The law tells me not to covet. The death of Jesus doesn't somehow free me from the reality that coveting is self-destructive. Instead, I follow the example of Christ and ask God for freedom from coveting. That is how I become free from the curse.

The law, itself, was not a curse.

KT

 

[Carl Emerson]

Gal 3

10 For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.”

 

[The Liturgist]

Hi there,

I notice Jesus opposed the stoning of the woman in adultery which the Law required to be done.

He also harvested on the Sabbath when the disciples were hungry.

Was He then fulfilling the Law by keeping a higher 'Law of the Spirit'?

Comments welcome.

Our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ would have known what the Law actually meant and how to observe it much more than any human at the time - after all, it was He gave the Jews the law originally (since Moses encountered God in the form of a man, it had to have been our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ, since no one has seen the Father at any time - He has only ever been heard, specifically at two of the most important occasions in the Gospels, the Baptism of Christ in the Jordan and the Transfiguration on Mount Tabor.

In Him the law was fulfilled.

 

[Studyman]

This is the only conclusion I can come to based on Jesus's comments on Mosaic divorce.

KT

I find it helpful to actually post the Laws in question, and then compare them to the Words of the Jesus "of the Bible".

For instance,

Deut. 24: 1 When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house.

Matt. 5: 31 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:

32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

So both Moses and Jesus understood that an unfaithful wife should be put away. But the Pharisees, who taught for doctrines the Commandments of men, promoted divorce for any reason.

God confirms this later on in the Law and Prophets.

Jer. 3: 8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

I was led to believe as you by this world's religions, that Jesus taught differently than Moses. While it is true that Jesus and Moses both taught differently than "Those of old time" (Jer. 23: 16, 17,), I tend to agree with you concerning the Jesus of the Bibles steadfast submission to God's Commandments. If you read the promised New Covenant, you will find that God promised to change 2 things.

#1. How God's Laws are received ( Heb. 7: If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) )

#2. The manner in which Sins are forgiven. (Lev. 4: 30 And the priest shall take of the blood thereof with his finger, and put it upon the horns of the altar of burnt offering, and shall pour out all the blood thereof at the bottom of the altar.)


A Prophesied New Priesthood, with Jesus as High Priest is what was promised. Not the abolition of God's instruction in righteousness, as ",many" who come in Christ's Name teach. I don't see in Scriptures where God's definition of sin, or instruction in righteousness changed. Of course, the religious sects and businesses of this world's Kingdoms promote a different gospel and do not agree with Scriptures on many points concerning God's commandments, but I believe Jesus also warned us about that.

In my understanding, the curse of the Law is "The soul that sins shall die". Jesus offered Himself to God for our sins, to give us another chance, as Paul teaches both Jew and Gentile, "that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance." (Acts 26:20)

It's a great study, as the Jesus of the Bible commands, "See Ye First the Kingdom of God and HIS Righteousness". Paul said His Righteousness is revealed to us in the Law and Prophets he called "The Gospel of Christ".

Anyway, I love to see that you are questioning things as you should, given that Jesus specifically warned of "Many" who come in His Name.

Good for you KT

 

[Carl Emerson]

Food for thought...

Back in the seventies a Jew - Marcus Ardern, came to faith and is currently a Pastor in Australia.

I was for a season very close to Marcus who helped lead a significant move of God here in New Zealand.

Marcus opened the Scripture with his Jewish mind and gave context to many issues with much love and life.

Marcus visited a farm that was struggling, and the believing farmers worked hard but were very frustrated.

From his understanding of scripture he referenced Deut 28 and insisted that in Christ through His righteousness the curses listed no longer applied.

He prayed together for the breaking of the curse of the law over them and the farm.

The farm improved dramatically and I saw the photos of the lush grass green within the boundary and brown beyond.

How much do we tolerate unnecessarily - do we need to read His Word and stand in faith against the listed curses that prevail due to the activity of the enemy who is an arch legalist ? Is it time to make a stand against our accuser who refuses to accept what Jesus has done for us ???

 

[Studyman]

Gal 3

10 For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.”

You are not understanding what is happening here. There is no curse of the Law "Love thy neighbor as thyself". But If a man kills his neighbor, or covets his neighbor's things, or steals from his neighbor, this is a Sin, and the wage of sin is a curse (Death). Before the Prophesied Priest of God came, how were these Sin's forgiven, "according the to the Law"? Did Moses say, "If a man sins and is guilty of transgressing one of God's Commandments, he shall "Love his neighbor as himself", and his sins are forgiven? No Carl, that wasn't the requirement of the Law for the remission of sin. Did God instruct Moses to tell men that sinned, "Keep My Sabbath Holy, and your sins are forgiven? No my friend, that is not what being "of the works of the law" means here.

So what did the "LAW" say men are to do, when they find they have sinned?

Lev. 4: 27 And if any one of the common people sin through ignorance, while he doeth somewhat against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and be guilty; 28 Or if his sin, which he hath sinned, come to his knowledge: "then he shall bring his offering", a kid of the goats, a female without blemish, for his sin which he hath sinned. 29 And he shall lay his hand upon the head of the sin offering, and slay the sin offering in the place of the burnt offering. 30 And the priest shall take of the blood thereof with his finger, and put it upon the horns of the altar of burnt offering, and shall pour out all the blood thereof at the bottom of the altar. 31 And he shall take away all the fat thereof, as the fat is taken away from off the sacrifice of peace offerings; and the priest shall burn it upon the altar for a sweet savour unto the LORD; and the priest shall make an atonement for him, and it shall be forgiven him.

This was "The works of the Law" that Moses commanded for the remission of sins, before the Prophesied Prophet/Priest/Savior/Messiah was to come.

The Pharisees, who were competing with Paul, were still promoting these "works of the Law" for remission of sins, even though the Messiah had come. Paul asks the Galatians who were being influenced by these mainstream preachers of their time:

Gal. 3: 1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified (sacrificed) among you? 2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit "by the works of the law", or by the hearing of faith?

It was never the blood of animals that covered sins, it was always the Blood of the Christ. Zacharias, Simeon, Joshua, Caleb, David, all the Faithful examples of men in the Scriptures understood this. The Pharisees didn't. This is because they rejected God's Judgments and Commandments, teaching their own doctrines and traditions of men.

So what happens then, to a man in Paul's Time who took his offering, and brought it to a Levite Priest for the remission of his sin, according to the Law posted above?

10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Are the sins removed, covered, forgiven for this man who believed he was "Justified by the Works of the Law"? No Carl, it is not possible that the blood of goats can take away sin. Therefore, he is a debtor to keep the whole law, because no man is justified/forgiven by the "Works of the Law". But this man has already sinned because all men have sinned. Therefore, "For as many as are under the "works of the law" for remission of sin, are under a curse.

 

[Studyman]

Food for thought...

Back in the seventies a Jew - Marcus Ardern, came to faith and is currently a Pastor in Australia.

I was for a season very close to Marcus who helped lead a significant move of God here in New Zealand.

Marcus opened the Scripture with his Jewish mind and gave context to many issues with much love and life.

Marcus visited a farm that was struggling, and the believing farmers worked hard but were very frustrated.

From his understanding of scripture he referenced Deut 28 and insisted that in Christ through His righteousness the curses listed no longer applied.

He prayed together for the breaking of the curse of the law over them and the farm.

The farm improved dramatically and I saw the photos of the lush grass green within the boundary and brown beyond.

How much do we tolerate unnecessarily - do we need to read His Word and stand in faith against the listed curses that prevail due to the activity of the enemy who is an arch legalist ? Is it time to make a stand against our accuser who refuses to accept what Jesus has done for us ???

One of many reasons why I don't trust or adopt the religious philosophies of this world's religious kingdoms, "who come in Christ's Name", other than Jesus Himself said to "Take heed" of them, is because of all the deceptions and falsehoods they promote about the Holy Scriptures. I'm sure many mean well, and I hope they might soon consider the Words and warnings of the Jesus "of the bible" and understand that HE didn't just make up the warnings, but knew what the real danger was to men who would turn to God.

One very frustrating falsehood that is taught as truth by this world's religious sects and businesses, is that the Pharisees were trying to earn Salvation "by obeying God's Commandments". They are called "Legalists" by "many" who call Jesus Lord, Lord, in the religious kingdoms of this world God placed me in.

When a person turns to God, and studies what the Jesus "of the bible" actually teaches about the Pharisees, this popular religious philosophy is exposed as a deception. In fact, there is not ONE place in Scripture, where Jesus said the Pharisees and Scribes were trying to obey God, trying to earn Salvation by obeying God, or anything else that would support or even imply that the Pharisees were obedient to God in any fashion. This false doctrine has influenced many people to believe lies about God and His Word. If you were to go read and believe Isaiah Chapter 1, You would begin to understand Paul's teaching concerning the rebellious Jews/Pharisees.

In this chapter you would find the Pharisees Jesus describes. A people who rejected His Laws, despised His Judgments, polluted His Sabbaths. And yet every week they would come to God with the blood of an innocent, righteous being (According to the Law) to "justify" their lawless religion.

"Legalism" is defined "1: strict, literal, or excessive conformity to the law or to a religious or moral code

Jesus, Paul, Zacharias, David, Caleb, Joshua, Shadrack, John the Baptist, these men are closer to the definition of "Legalism" than the lawless, rebellious Pharisees.

I hope you might consider the real enemy, and it isn't God's Law.

 

[KevinT]

Our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ would have known what the Law actually meant and how to observe it much more than any human at the time - after all, it was He gave the Jews the law originally (since Moses encountered God in the form of a man, it had to have been our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ, since no one has seen the Father at any time - He has only ever been heard, specifically at two of the most important occasions in the Gospels, the Baptism of Christ in the Jordan and the Transfiguration on Mount Tabor.

I fully agree.

In Him the law was fulfilled.

Jesus did fulfill the requirements of the law.
Do you see this as meaning that I no longer need to honor my parents?

KT

 

[KevinT]

Food for thought....

He prayed together for the breaking of the curse of the law over them and the farm.

The farm improved dramatically and I saw the photos of the lush grass green within the boundary and brown beyond.

How much do we tolerate unnecessarily - do we need to read His Word and stand in faith against the listed curses that prevail due to the activity of the enemy who is an arch legalist ? Is it time to make a stand against our accuser who refuses to accept what Jesus has done for us ???

I think that each of us tries to generate a framework in our minds to understand what goes on in the world around us. In the mind of this, Marcus, he apparently believed that there was a curse in play, and he felt that by praying to break that curse, good would ensue. From what you described, good things happen to the Farm after they prayed.

So it could be that this situation validates the world model that Marcus has understood. But it is also possible that his world model is wrong, and God simply honored his prayers for help.

I’m not saying any of this as a criticism. I also am trying to develop a model in my mind of how things work. I guess my point is that I should realize that my heavenly father, like a good parent, will still guide and help me even when my understanding is wrong. I can think of a toddler, trying to figure out how the world works, and a parent still helping them when they don’t have it quite right.

Best wishes
KT

 

[Carl Emerson]

I think that each of us tries to generate a framework in our minds to understand what goes on in the world around us. In the mind of this, Marcus, he apparently believed that there was a curse in play, and he felt that by praying to break that curse, good would ensue. From what you described, good things happen to the Farm after they prayed.

So it could be that this situation validates the world model that Marcus has understood. But it is also possible that his world model is wrong, and God simply honored his prayers for help.

I’m not saying any of this as a criticism. I also am trying to develop a model in my mind of how things work. I guess my point is that I should realize that my heavenly father, like a good parent, will still guide and help me even when my understanding is wrong. I can think of a toddler, trying to figure out how the world works, and a parent still helping them when they don’t have it quite right.

Best wishes
KT

It takes time - I spent over 5 years reading nothing but scripture and no other Christian input.

Our world view should be coming from there.

Meantime His loving support is with us as you say.

I learned to hand all questions upstairs for clarification and the answers usually came back pretty quick. However more important was to understand that when the questions did not get an answer, He didn't need me to know -at least at that time.

Sadly most do not approach learning this way and the desire to know becomes a demand and the sin of Eden to grasp knowledge prevails.

The result is folks miss the specific understanding needed to equip them in the unique calling they have.

 

[Carl Emerson]

One of many reasons why I don't trust or adopt the religious philosophies of this world's religious kingdoms, "who come in Christ's Name", other than Jesus Himself said to "Take heed" of them, is because of all the deceptions and falsehoods they promote about the Holy Scriptures. I'm sure many mean well, and I hope they might soon consider the Words and warnings of the Jesus "of the bible" and understand that HE didn't just make up the warnings, but knew what the real danger was to men who would turn to God.

One very frustrating falsehood that is taught as truth by this world's religious sects and businesses, is that the Pharisees were trying to earn Salvation "by obeying God's Commandments". They are called "Legalists" by "many" who call Jesus Lord, Lord, in the religious kingdoms of this world God placed me in.

When a person turns to God, and studies what the Jesus "of the bible" actually teaches about the Pharisees, this popular religious philosophy is exposed as a deception. In fact, there is not ONE place in Scripture, where Jesus said the Pharisees and Scribes were trying to obey God, trying to earn Salvation by obeying God, or anything else that would support or even imply that the Pharisees were obedient to God in any fashion. This false doctrine has influenced many people to believe lies about God and His Word. If you were to go read and believe Isaiah Chapter 1, You would begin to understand Paul's teaching concerning the rebellious Jews/Pharisees.

In this chapter you would find the Pharisees Jesus describes. A people who rejected His Laws, despised His Judgments, polluted His Sabbaths. And yet every week they would come to God with the blood of an innocent, righteous being (According to the Law) to "justify" their lawless religion.

"Legalism" is defined "1: strict, literal, or excessive conformity to the law or to a religious or moral code

Jesus, Paul, Zacharias, David, Caleb, Joshua, Shadrack, John the Baptist, these men are closer to the definition of "Legalism" than the lawless, rebellious Pharisees.

I hope you might consider the real enemy, and it isn't God's Law.

Yes - Salvation was always by faith not works...

However, the Law came with Blessings and Curses - these play out in this life as we clearly read in Deut 28.

So the curse of the Law is the consequence of violating eternal principles of a Loving God and in so doing, opening ones self up to the demonic realm and the destroyer himself.

It seems this applies to both believer and unbeliever in this life but the matter of salvation is a different topic.

 

[The Liturgist]

Jesus did fulfill the requirements of the law.
Do you see this as meaning that I no longer need to honor my parents?

You’re putting words in my mouth, attributing anomialism to me, when clearly we have the Summary of the Law as given by our Lord, which would apply to our parents, and the Decalogue, and many other moral principles (for example, it is a grievous sin to engage in fornication, adultery, sodomy, murder, theft, dishonesty, et cetera).

 

[pasifika]

Hi there,

I notice Jesus opposed the stoning of the woman in adultery which the Law required to be done.

He also harvested on the Sabbath when the disciples were hungry.

Was He then fulfilling the Law by keeping a higher 'Law of the Spirit'?

Comments welcome.

Jesus fulfilled the Law and became the Righteousness of the Law. HE was not under any Law when He started His ministry.

 

[Studyman]

Yes - Salvation was always by faith not works...

However, the Law came with Blessings and Curses - these play out in this life as we clearly read in Deut 28.

Deut 28: 1 And it shall come to pass, if thou shalt hearken diligently unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe and to do all his commandments which I command thee this day, that the LORD thy God will set thee on high above all nations of the earth: 2 And all these blessings shall come on thee, and overtake thee, if thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God.

So here is God Himself telling men what happens to them if they believe God and follow His instructions.

15 But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee:

And here is God Himself telling men what happens to them if they don't believe God and follow His instructions.

It becomes clear then, why Paul teaches men to "Yield themselves" to God, and be "Doers of His Law" and not just hearers only. As Jesus my Lord also instructs. Matt. 4: 4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

This would be then, the Christ's Definition of FAITH, to Live by God's Word and not man's word. And Hebrews 11 confirm this, as all the examples of Faithful men given us in Scriptures, thou they had sin, still "Lived By" God's Laws. As opposed to the traditions and commandments of men the mainstream religion of Paul's time, the Pharisees, taught for doctrines.

And Paul and Jesus both say that all men are judged by their works. So yes, this world's religions teach "works" have nothing to do with Salvation. But if one were to believe the Scriptures, Faith without works, or listening without obeying, is not Faith at all.

So the curse of the Law is the consequence of violating eternal principles of a Loving God and in so doing, opening ones self up to the demonic realm and the destroyer himself.

I agree. God lays out for us HOW to Love Him and if we ignore God, and just serve Him with our lips, we open ourselves up to deception. James called it "Deceiving ourselves". I wondered about this for a time. "How can I deceive myself"? Then I heard God's Word defining my heart, and believed Him, and it all made sense after that.

Jer. 17: 9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

It's no wonder Jesus said to "Live by" God's Words, and not the words of the "many" who come in His Name.

It seems this applies to both believer and unbeliever in this life but the matter of salvation is a different topic.

In my understanding of Scriptures, a person who "professes to know God, but by their works deny Him, is considered by God a "Non-Believer".

Jesus speaks "Christians", (Matt. 7:22) that is, men who call Jesus Lord, Lord, cast out demons in His Name, teach in His Name etc., but do not "live by" the Word of God, are considered by Him as a non-believer as well. HE says HE doesn't even know them.

This is why it is so important to study the Scriptures for ourselves with an open and unbiased mind, as much as possible. Like Jesus said "Seek Ye First the Kingdom of God and HIS Righteousness". I think in this way, God reveals Himself to those who Seek Him.

 

[Studyman]

You’re putting words in my mouth, attributing anomialism to me, when clearly we have the Summary of the Law as given by our Lord, which would apply to our parents, and the Decalogue, and many other moral principles (for example, it is a grievous sin to engage in fornication, adultery, sodomy, murder, theft, dishonesty, et cetera).

What about creating our own Judgments and rejecting God's? Or creating images of God in the likeness of a fat bald man, or handsome long-haired man? What about creating high days in worship of these images, while rejecting the Feasts of the Lord? Were these not "Grevious sins" according to the Father in the Law and Prophets?

 

[KevinT]

You’re putting words in my mouth, attributing anomialism to me, when clearly we have the Summary of the Law as given by our Lord, which would apply to our parents, and the Decalogue, and many other moral principles (for example, it is a grievous sin to engage in fornication, adultery, sodomy, murder, theft, dishonesty, et cetera).

I apologize. I wasn’t intending to put words in your mouth. I was reacting to past interactions with others who see fulfilling the law to mean that there are now no written laws in effect, and anything a person feels in their hearts is the rule of the day.

So, you believe that the Decalogue still stands? Many do not. I do.

Best wishes
KT

 

[KevinT]

Jesus fulfilled the Law and became the Righteousness of the Law. HE was not under any Law when He started His ministry.

Can you explain your rationale for this? It is completely contrary to my understanding.

Best wishes
KT

 

[pasifika]

Can you explain your rationale for this? It is completely contrary to my understanding.

Best wishes
KT

thank you Kevin. The law is the "way'' to fulfill Righteousness. ie like a medical school to train doctors. Once we fulfill Gods Righteousness by upholding the Law then we are complete and no need of the law to train us. like we are qualified to be a doctor and no need of a medical school again.

 

[KevinT]

thank you Kevin. The law is the "way'' to fulfill Righteousness. ie like a medical school to train doctors. Once we fulfill Gods Righteousness by upholding the Law then we are complete and no need of the law to train us. like we are qualified to be a doctor and no need of a medical school again.

I hear what you are saying, but I always thought that Jesus was following the law during His ministry.

KT

 

[Studyman]

I hear what you are saying, but I always thought that Jesus was following the law during His ministry.

KT

I think our cross in this life is our human heart. And we are instructed to keep His Word in our mind all the time, in this life.

I agree that in this life, we need to “continue” striving against sin “ to the end”, or as Jesus said “endure to the end”. Like a good doctor would continue in the teaching from His Instructer all of his career.

I really like your response. God’s instruction is a way of life. The faithful continue in the teaching of God, and grow as His wisdom which increases in the faithful’s life, just a a doctor is a better doctor after 20 years of practice, that he is at 5 years.