Belief in the real presence

[RileyG]

I've found that there's a wide range of people's understanding of what it means to "convert" between churches. As most people would understand the term, no, I haven't officially converted. My priest would probably say that I've converted but haven't been brought into communion with the Church, or at least that I've committed to convert; he made it clear before I became a catechumen that in his view, becoming a catechumen is making a commitment to complete catechesis and become Orthodox, as opposed to other churches where catechism is seen as a class during which you discern whether or not you want to join.

Ah, thanks for the response!

 

[The Liturgist]

So you haven't officially converted yet?

Well, if a catechumen should unfortunately perish, the Orthodox Church would give them a full Orthodox funeral.

becoming a catechumen is making a commitment to complete catechesis and become Orthodox, as opposed to other churches where catechism is seen as a class during which you discern whether or not you want to join.

That’s correct. You are essentially Orthodox in training, and you are much loved by all of us.

God grant you many years!

 

[seeking.IAM]

I have my old confirmation workbook from my youth around here somewhere. I will have to find it to read what it had to say about Communion. I'll post it if I can find it. It should be interesting to see if it was a point of emphasis.

I found it! No wonder I didn't learn the official position of the United Methodist Church until after I left. Here is a quote from the "I Chose The Church - A Church Membership Course for Intermediates." (from The Methodist Publishing House).

(p.28) "This is the most sacred and important service in Methodist practice. We call it a sacrament because we believe it is a special, symbolic way of renewing our covenant or relationship with God. You should never miss this service if you can help it...Roman Catholics believe that a miracle is performed in the 'mass' when the 'host' or wafer of unleavened bread is 'elevated' or raised by the priest before the crucifix. In this 'miracle' the bread and wine are supposed to be transformed into the actual flesh and blood of Jesus, so that He is present again in the flesh. Protestants reject this idea as not taught by the New Testament. They consider the bread and wine to be no more than symbols of the flesh and blood of Jesus who is present in the Spirit of the hearts to all who take Communion sincerely. This is a more spiritual and wholesome way to look at it." (Underlining for emphasis is mine).​

So, the teaching was that the Christ's presence was in the communicants' hearts, not the elements themselves.

 

[RileyG]

I found it! No wonder I didn't learn the official position of the United Methodist Church until after I left. Here is a quote from the "I Chose The Church - A Church Membership Course for Intermediates." (from The Methodist Publishing House).

(p.28) "This is the most sacred and important service in Methodist practice. We call it a sacrament because we believe it is a special, symbolic way of renewing our covenant or relationship with God. You should never miss this service if you can help it...Roman Catholics believe that a miracle is performed in the 'mass' whet the 'host' or wafer of unleavened bread is 'elevated' or raised by the priest before the crucifix. In this 'miracle' the bread and wine are supposed to be transformed into the actual flesh and blood of Jesus, so that He is present again in the flesh. Protestants reject this idea as not taught by the New Testament. They consider the bread and wine to be no more that symbols of the flesh and blood of Jesus who is present in the Spirit of the hearts to all who take Communion sincerely. This is a more spiritual and wholesome way to look at it." (Underlining for emphasis is mine).​

So, the teaching was that the Christ's presence was in the communicants' hearts, not the elements themselves.

View attachment 356011

That’s interesting. Thanks for sharing

 

[The Liturgist]

I found it! No wonder I didn't learn the official position of the United Methodist Church until after I left. Here is a quote from the "I Chose The Church - A Church Membership Course for Intermediates." (from The Methodist Publishing House).

(p.28) "This is the most sacred and important service in Methodist practice. We call it a sacrament because we believe it is a special, symbolic way of renewing our covenant or relationship with God. You should never miss this service if you can help it...Roman Catholics believe that a miracle is performed in the 'mass' whet the 'host' or wafer of unleavened bread is 'elevated' or raised by the priest before the crucifix. In this 'miracle' the bread and wine are supposed to be transformed into the actual flesh and blood of Jesus, so that He is present again in the flesh. Protestants reject this idea as not taught by the New Testament. They consider the bread and wine to be no more that symbols of the flesh and blood of Jesus who is present in the Spirit of the hearts to all who take Communion sincerely. This is a more spiritual and wholesome way to look at it." (Underlining for emphasis is mine).​

So, the teaching was that the Christ's presence was in the communicants' hearts, not the elements themselves.

View attachment 356011

What year was that published?

It is a fact by the way that there are high church Methodists who believe in the Real Presence. I was one of them. And some have left the UMC and formed what are best described as Methodist-Anglican churches.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

How does "real" presence differ from presence as in omninpresent?

 

[seeking.IAM]

What year was that published?

It is a fact by the way that there are high church Methodists who believe in the Real Presence. I was one of them. And some have left the UMC and formed what are best described as Methodist-Anglican churches.

It would have been in the 1960's when it was used by my then-church (pre 1969 merger with the EUB to form UMC).

 

[RileyG]

How does "real" presence differ from presence as in omninpresent?

Christ truly being present in the Eucharist and not just a mere symbol.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Christ truly being present in the Eucharist and not just a mere symbol.

Is he not truly omnipresent?

 

[RileyG]

Is he not truly omnipresent?

No. That’s not what I meant. It’s change of substance if you want to use Catholic terminology.

 

[The Liturgist]

Is he not truly omnipresent?

You are Roman Catholic are you not? Just out of curiosity, are you one of those Roman Catholics who rejects Transubstantiation?

 

[The Liturgist]

It would have been in the 1960's when it was used by my then-church (pre 1969 merger with the EUB to form UMC).

Well that seems to be pretty obscure. I’ve never known Receptionism to be the majority opinion, since many people have Calvinistic or Zwinglian or Memorialist views and some like me were taught to believe in the real presence (perhaps this was a result of my family including my godfather being predominantly Lutheran, with some Baptists, Presbyterians, Congregationalists and Anglicans here and there).

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

You are Roman Catholic are you not? Just out of curiosity, are you one of those Roman Catholics who rejects Transubstantiation?

Yes, I am RC, and yes I do accept Transubstantiations. But I still have questions. Though God is omni present he is present in the Blessed Sacrament in a unique way, a more tangible and immediate way. How then is God omnipresent? Less tangible? Less immediate?

 

[RileyG]

Yes, I am RC, and yes I do accept Transubstantiations. But I still have questions. Though God is omni present he is present in the Blessed Sacrament in a unique way, a more tangible and immediate way. How then is God omnipresent? Less tangible? Less immediate?

Good question. I don’t know how to answer.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Good question. I don’t know how to answer.

Well, if we can figure out Aquinas:

Question 8. The existence of God in things​

Article 1. Whether God is in all things?​

I answer that, God is in all things; not, indeed, as part of their essence, nor as an accident, but as an agent is present to that upon which it works.

For an agent must be joined to that wherein it acts immediately and touch it by its power; hence it is proved in Phys. vii that the thing moved and the mover must be joined together. Now since God is very being by His own essence, created being must be His proper effect; as to ignite is the proper effect of fire. Now God causes this effect in things not only when they first begin to be, but as long as they are preserved in being; as light is caused in the air by the sun as long as the air remains illuminated.

Therefore as long as a thing has being, God must be present to it, according to its mode of being. But being is innermost in each thing and most fundamentally inherent in all things since it is formal in respect of everything found in a thing, as was shown above (I:7:1). Hence it must be that God is in all things, and innermostly.

SUMMA THEOLOGIAE: The existence of God in things (Prima Pars, Q. 8)

Is God in all things? Is God everywhere? Is God everywhere by essence, power, and presence? Does it belong to God alone to be everywhere?

www.newadvent.org

Question 76. The way in which Christ is in this sacrament​

Article 1. Whether the whole Christ is contained under this sacrament?​

I answer that, It is absolutely necessary to confess according to Catholic faith that the entire Christ is in this sacrament. Yet we must know that there is something of Christ in this sacrament in a twofold manner: first, as it were, by the power of the sacrament; secondly, from natural concomitance.

By the power of the sacrament, there is under the species of this sacrament that into which the pre-existing substance of the bread and wine is changed, as expressed by the words of the form, which are effective in this as in the other sacraments; for instance, by the words: "This is My body," or, "This is My blood."

But from natural concomitance there is also in this sacrament that which is really united with that thing wherein the aforesaid conversion is terminated. For if any two things be really united, then wherever the one is really, there must the other also be: since things really united together are only distinguished by an operation of the mind.

SUMMA THEOLOGIAE: The way in which Christ is in this sacrament (Tertia Pars, Q. 76)

Is the whole Christ under this sacrament? Is the entire Christ under each species of the sacrament? Is the entire Christ under every part of the species? Are all the dimensions of Christ's body in this sacrament? Is the body of Christ in this sacrament locally? After the consecration, is the...

www.newadvent.org

So I think it comes down to tangibility.
Yes God is in all things and omnipresent, "innermostly". But that is rather abstract.
In the Blessed Sacrament Christ himself becomes available to hold, see and ingest.

 

[KathrynAragon]

I am a convert to Roman Catholicism, and have been for about twenty years. Prior to that, my grandmother and her family were charter members who began a Methodist church so I have found this thread to be very interesting! (My mom and dad were Protestant but didn't get hung up on different denominations.) I grew up absolutely LOVING communion and all that and love communion today. Most of the time we celebrated communion once a month and it was unleavened bread (usually) and grape juice in little plastic cups, which we threw away. Sometimes it was grape juice in glass cups which we left in the pews in little round cut outs in the pews in front of us.

I absolutely love that the Catholic church teaches and upholds the Real Presence,

 

[RileyG]

I am a convert to Roman Catholicism, and have been for about twenty years. Prior to that, my grandmother and her family were charter members who began a Methodist church so I have found this thread to be very interesting! (My mom and dad were Protestant but didn't get hung up on different denominations.) I grew up absolutely LOVING communion and all that and love communion today. Most of the time we celebrated communion once a month and it was unleavened bread (usually) and grape juice in little plastic cups, which we threw away. Sometimes it was grape juice in glass cups which we left in the pews in little round cut outs in the pews in front of us.

I absolutely love that the Catholic church teaches and upholds the Real Presence,

We are also very fortunate to have Holy Communion every Sunday (or even, every day) if we wanted!

 

[RileyG]

It would have been in the 1960's when it was used by my then-church (pre 1969 merger with the EUB to form UMC).

You were part of the Evangelical United Brethren? Or Methodist Episcopal Church?

 

[seeking.IAM]

I believe the timeline was the Methodist Episcopal Church existed from its founding in 1784 until 1939. In 1939, it merged with the Methodist Protestant Church to form the Methodist Church. In 1969 the Methodist Church joined the Evangelical United Brethren Church to form the United Methodist Church.

My journey began with the Methodist iteration and then on to the United Methodists until I left decades later. I remember the merger of the Methodists and EUBs. It was not easy. My dad had been a Methodist pastor. In 1969 he was appointed by the Bishop to a town where his task was to join two congregations - a former Methodist one and a former EUB one - both having buildings and histories about 3 blocks from each other. Also, to close a small country church where he pastored as a seminarian when starting his career. It was ugly. He failed to unite the two congregations. I don't know how many pastors later it took to get the job done or if anyone every went willingly. For many years after the merger even into recent times, UMC congregations that came from the EUB stream harbored resentments of Methodists and didn't always make it easy for pastors assigned to them who were former Methodists.

 

[seeking.IAM]

For many years after the merger even into recent times, UMC congregations that came from the EUB stream harbored resentments of Methodists and didn't always make it easy for pastors assigned to them who were former Methodists.

Having written the above, I must say I wrote it from the perspective of a Methodist pastor's family experience. I do not know if the inverse was true where former Methodist congregations made it difficult when assigned a pastor that came from the EUB stream.