Did the early church worship on Sabbath?

[SabbathBlessings]

According to Judaism and traditional Christianity, it is Sunday. Saturday evening ends at sunset.

Yes, I said it was a meeting on day 1- Saturday evening because Paul was leaving on a trip in the morning. They came together to break bread which they did daily. That doesn’t make every day a new day of worship or a change in the Sabbath commandment-

And at any rate Scripture said they met on the first day, which could mean meeting the night before, but it could also mean meeting at any time prior to sunset on Sunday. Your idea that it was a Vesperal meeting is purely conjectural.

And regarding those other verses, they simply do not say what you assert, unless you are using a very different translation of the Bible from what I am using.

Acts 18:4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded both Jews and Greeks.
Acts 15:21 For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath.”
Acts 13:42 42 So when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath.
Acts 13:44 On the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God.
Acts 16: 13 And on the Sabbath day we went out of the city to the riverside, where prayer was customarily made; and we sat down and spoke to the women who met there

For people who claim the Sabbath ended at the Cross there was a lot of Sabbath keeping by the apostles decades after the Cross, just like Jesus said Mat 24:20

The apostles acted in one accord so it’s absurd to say they didn’t all keep every Sabbath that only some of them did. They kept the Sabbath even when there was no churches built in the area and the fact the Sabbath is still called the Sabbath which God defined as My holy day, the holy day of the Lord Isa 58:13 means the Sabbath never went anywhere for His faithful, just as Jesus said Mat 24:20 Isa 66:23

 

[JesusFollowerForever]

This is factually incorrect. The Council of Nicaea was convened to address the heresy of Arianism, the teaching that Jesus Christ is not God incarnate. It did not enact any legislation that would have the effect of changing the day of worship, other than its decision to end Quartodecimianism in favor of the majority preference of celebrating the Pascha on the first Sunday after the vernal equinox.

But we know from St. Justin Martyr and other second century writers that the church already met on Sunday, which confirms what is indicated in the New Testament.



Only in response to SDAs attacking our churches. If they would leave us alone and not constantly criticize our churches for various reasons, especially the Roman Catholic and other liturgical churches, and make posts implying we are at risk of receiving the Mark of the Beast if we don’t change how we do things, we would have no cause to criticize them. I have never written a post critical of Messianic Judaism as the Messianic Jews have always been nice to me, personally, and have never made posts challenging their views.



That’s not true, the Great Controversy contains an extensive amount of ecclesiastical history, where she made multiple errors, and ignored the existence of the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox, probably because she was unaware of them, but this has the effect of showing her dualistic view of the Sabbatarians as the supreme expression of Protestantism that had existed since antiquity (which is untrue) versus the Roman Catholics as a false dichotomy. I do give her credit where it is due, for teaching Adventists the importance of the Trinity.

As for the extent of her knowledge of Scripture, who else have you read to compare her works to?

Q: As for the extent of her knowledge of Scripture, who else have you read to compare her works to?
A: the bible

For the rest, it's your opinion, we will never know how all the details with the early RC church and I will be honest, it is of little interest to me at this time, I said what I know that is all. My main concern right now is to find the truth of the things that matter and learn from them, mainly Jesus's gospel of the kingdom of heaven , repentance and the commandments. the basic things that are at the core of GOD's words.

so you know I was born in Montreal, baptized in a roman catholic church, went to a catholic church so I know them well, some of my uncles were also RC priests, very knowledgeable well educated people.

Blessings

 

[The Liturgist]

Q: As for the extent of her knowledge of Scripture, who else have you read to compare her works to?
A: the bible

Then, frankly, you are not in a position to evaluate how much she knows about Scripture compared to any other theologian. If you haven’t compared her writing to those of say, the fourth century fathers such as Saints Athanasius, John Chrysostom, the Cappadocians, Ambrose of Milan, Ephrem the Syrain or other Patristic figures such as Saints Augustine, Vincent of Lerins, or St. John of Damascus, and if you haven’t compared her writing to more recent figures, such as Thomas Aquinas, pioneering Lutheran and Calvinist reformers such as Martin Luther, Philip Melancthon, John Calvin, and John Knox, and leading Anglican thinkers such as Thomas Cranmer, Archbishop Laud and the Caroline Divines, John Wesley, Edward Pusey and so on, or the great Congregationalist preacher Jonathan Edwards and the popular Baptist preacher Charles Spurgeon, or more recent dogmatic and systematic theologians such as Karl Barth, Protopresbyter Michael Pomazansky, Metropolitan Kallistos Ware, et cetera, you’re not in a position to make statements comparing her scriptural knowledge to that of other people.

You can of course assert that she knew a lot of Scripture, but if you have only read her, and the Bible, you are not in a position to compare her knowledge with that of other authors.

Also I would say that only studying the theology of a single person or a single point of view strikes me as profoundly misguided. Only the books of Scripture are God-breathed - many others are important and can be useful, but since we are human, we make mistakes. Some errors of the Roman Catholic Church I believe arose from reading St. Augustine exclusively during the Scholastic era and neglecting other Patristic writers such as St. John Cassian, St. Basil the Great, St. Gregory of Nazianzus, St. Gregory of Nyssa, St. Severus of Antioch and St. Cyril of Alexandria, and even controversial figures such as Origen and Theodore of Mopsuestia.
[/quote]

For the rest, it's your opinion, we will never know how all the details with the early RC church and I will be honest, it is of little interest to me at this time,

That’s not true. Very little of what I have posted in this thread has represented my personal opinion, and I have taken pains to denote what is my personal opinion.

For example, it is a fact what happened at the Council of Nicaea - its acts are recorded and you can look them up. And the council cannot be considered a part of the early Roman Catholic Church - it was fundamentally an Eastern Orthodox council convened to deal with an issue in the Church of Alexandria, which occurred more than 200 years before any bishop of Rome used the title Pope, and at which there were only a pair of Roman legates, who did not actively participate in the discussions, which were led by St. Athanasius. So that’s a matter of historical fact.

Now, as far as my doctrinal statements are concerned, I have stated the doctrine of the Orthodox Church, as I understand it, and I have sought the opinions of Roman Catholics and Lutherans and I might well bring in Anglicans.

I said what I know that is all. My main concern right now is to find the truth of the things that matter and learn from them, mainly Jesus's gospel of the kingdom of heaven , repentance and the commandments. the basic things that are at the core of GOD's words.

There is only one Gospel, and it was preached by all of the Apostles. Indeed, if anyone came preaching another Gospel, they were to be anathematized (Galatians 1:8-9).

so you know I was born in Montreal, baptized in a roman catholic church, went to a catholic church so I know them well, some of my uncles were also RC priests, very knowledgeable well educated people.

I don’t know what negative or positive experiences you had in the Roman Catholic Church, but whatever your views are of them, they are not relevant to other churches such as the Orthodox Church and the Lutheran Church or the Calvinists. They also do not automatically make you an expert on Roman Catholic theology, any more than the fact that I attended an LCMS parochial school would by itself make me expert on Lutheran theology (and while I know a fair amount about it, I prefer to defer to my friends @MarkRohfrietsch and @Ain't Zwinglian).

 

[The Liturgist]

And he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded both Jews and Greeks.
Acts 15:21 For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath.”
Acts 13:42 42 So when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath.
Acts 13:44 On the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God.
Acts 16: 13 And on the Sabbath day we went out of the city to the riverside, where prayer was customarily made; and we sat down and spoke to the women who met there

None of those say the Apostles kept the Sabbath every Saturday. The only one which comes close concerns St. Paul preaching in a particular city every Sabbath, but we don’t know what his customs were before that. But assuming they did, that’s fine, because in the Orthodox Church we observe the Sabbath, despite accusations to the contrary made by yourself and other SDA members.

And assuming the Apostles did keep the Sabbath, it seems reasonable to assume their observation of it would be in line with that of liturgical churches at present which worship on Saturday and Sunday. We know that they worshipped on Sunday, for example, when the Holy Spirit descended upon them at the third hour (roughly 9 AM), which coincidentally is when most churches have their Sunday worship.

For people who claim the Sabbath ended at the Cross there was a lot of Sabbath keeping by the apostles decades after the Cross, just like Jesus said Mat 24:20

Well, I never claimed that Sabbath keeping ended at the Cross. What I have asserted is that the way in which the Sabbath was being kept during the ministry of Christ our True God was in error, which is why He criticized the Jews for their remarks on how he observed the Sabbath.

Now, my friend @Ain't Zwinglian has made an argument that Sabbath observation is unnecessary, which is an interesting argument, but it is not one which I have signed up for, so if you have issues with it, you should take them up with him.

For my part, I am a member of a church which worships on Saturday as well as Sunday, and as I see it you have no basis in accusing the Orthodox of not keeping the Sabbath.

Indeed I seem to recall a debate we had in which you alleged that the Assyrian Church of the East and the Ethiopian Tewahedo Orthodox Church were Sabbatarian in the sense of the SDA because they worshipped on Saturday (which is partially true - the Ethiopians like the Copts will worship on Saturday if they have the resources to do so, but their main worship is on Sunday, but as for the Assyrians, their main worship is on Sunday morning, preceded by vespers the night before, which occur on Sunday liturgically speaking, since the liturgical day begins with Vespers).

In the Orthodox Church, when we celebrate Vigils, this often begins with the Ninth Hour, and the Coptic Orthodox Church always starts with the Ninth Hour, which is on Saturday, so even if one misses the worship on Saturday morning, if one attends the entire Vigils one will worship on the Sabbath. Indeed there are three principle Sabbath prayers in Judaism - night prayer, followed by morning prayer, followed by afternoon prayer.

I will not accept any statements that the Orthodox do not observe Sabbath, because it is not true. You may disagree with how we do it, but since we worship on Saturday, and commemorate the rest of God in the tomb on Sabbath, we observe the Sabbath. And I think it not unreasonable to insist that the Orthodox receive due credit for this fact. Otherwise it is a discredit, particularly to members of the Orthodox faith of Jewish descent, such as my friend @Yeshua HaDerekh .

 

[The Liturgist]

Quoting what the scripture says is not accusing.

That’s not necessarily the case - one can accuse another of all sorts of things, true and false, by citing scripture. For example, if one considers another to be teaching false doctrine, it is normal to quote Galatians 1:8–9, which requires that such persons be anathematized, but one can be mistaken on this point.

If your assertion is that I do not keep the Sabbath, you have made an unfounded and inflammatory accusation which you need to stop. This forum requires that we love each other as brothers and sisters in Christ, and I don’t feel loved when people accuse me of doing or teaching things which are contrary to Scripture, or warn that i am at risk of receiving the Mark of the Beast.

So please, kindly honor my request and do not accuse me of not keeping the Sabbath or of teaching people to break it, because I haven’t done that. All I have done is to challenge SDA doctrine on what keeping the Sabbath entails, and that only in response to extremely aggressive and unwarranted criticism of my church and other traditional churches.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

That’s not necessarily the case - one can accuse another of all sorts of things, true and false, by citing scripture. For example, if one considers another to be teaching false doctrine, it is normal to quote Galatians 1:8–9, which requires that such persons be anathematized, but one can be mistaken on this point.

If your assertion is that I do not keep the Sabbath, you have made an unfounded and inflammatory accusation which you need to stop. This forum requires that we love each other as brothers and sisters in Christ, and I don’t feel loved when people accuse me of doing or teaching things which are contrary to Scripture, or warn that i am at risk of receiving the Mark of the Beast.

So please, kindly honor my request and do not accuse me of not keeping the Sabbath or of teaching people to break it, because I haven’t done that. All I have done is to challenge SDA doctrine on what keeping the Sabbath entails, and that only in response to extremely aggressive and unwarranted criticism of my church and other traditional churches.

Accusations as easy to make, but more compelling when one has evidence to support it.

 

[The Liturgist]

I see a huge difference in how the Message of Paul about his gospel to use his exact terms was compared to the Gospel as presented by Jesus.

One area where I strongly agree with our friend @SabbathBlessings (and it might surprise her to know that I agree with her, but I do), is that there is only one Gospel, and for the Scriptural reasons she cited in another thread, for example, 1 Galatians 1:8-9.

The example you cited of an apparent disparity between St. Paul and St. James is no disparity at all - it is the case that we must have a living faith in Christ, or otherwise we are just engaging in hypocrisy, and nothing in the writings of St. Paul contradicts that. On the contrary, we read St. Paul in the context of St. James, and vice versa. This is called “exegesis”, as opposed to “eisegesis” which is the deeply flawed approach of selecting only Scriptural verses which support your doctrine and which you immediately understand.

I would hope that Ellen G. White addressed this issue in her writings, and I would assume she did, but if not, plenty of other Christians have, including Protestants, Catholics and Orthodox.

Lately in General Theology, many people have been arguing that there are two Gospels, a “Gospel of Grace” and a “Gospel of the Kingdom”, one meant for Gentiles and one meant for Jews, but we can exclude that possibility based on Galatians 3:28 - there is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, neither male nor female, for all are one in Christ Jesus.

Indeed the epistle of Galatians has a clear theme - that there is only one Gospel.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

None of those say the Apostles kept the Sabbath every Saturday. The only one which comes close concerns St. Paul preaching in a particular city every Sabbath, but we don’t know what his customs were before that. But assuming they did, that’s fine, because in the Orthodox Church we observe the Sabbath, despite accusations to the contrary made by yourself and other SDA members.

And assuming the Apostles did keep the Sabbath, it seems reasonable to assume their observation of it would be in line with that of liturgical churches at present which worship on Saturday and Sunday. We know that they worshipped on Sunday, for example, when the Holy Spirit descended upon them at the third hour (roughly 9 AM), which coincidentally is when most churches have their Sunday worship.




Well, I never claimed that Sabbath keeping ended at the Cross. What I have asserted is that the way in which the Sabbath was being kept during the ministry of Christ our True God was in error, which is why He criticized the Jews for their remarks on how he observed the Sabbath.

Now, my friend @Ain't Zwinglian has made an argument that Sabbath observation is unnecessary, which is an interesting argument, but it is not one which I have signed up for, so if you have issues with it, you should take them up with him.

For my part, I am a member of a church which worships on Saturday as well as Sunday, and as I see it you have no basis in accusing the Orthodox of not keeping the Sabbath.

Indeed I seem to recall a debate we had in which you alleged that the Assyrian Church of the East and the Ethiopian Tewahedo Orthodox Church were Sabbatarian in the sense of the SDA because they worshipped on Saturday (which is partially true - the Ethiopians like the Copts will worship on Saturday if they have the resources to do so, but their main worship is on Sunday, but as for the Assyrians, their main worship is on Sunday morning, preceded by vespers the night before, which occur on Sunday liturgically speaking, since the liturgical day begins with Vespers).

In the Orthodox Church, when we celebrate Vigils, this often begins with the Ninth Hour, and the Coptic Orthodox Church always starts with the Ninth Hour, which is on Saturday, so even if one misses the worship on Saturday morning, if one attends the entire Vigils one will worship on the Sabbath. Indeed there are three principle Sabbath prayers in Judaism - night prayer, followed by morning prayer, followed by afternoon prayer.

I will not accept any statements that the Orthodox do not observe Sabbath, because it is not true. You may disagree with how we do it, but since we worship on Saturday, and commemorate the rest of God in the tomb on Sabbath, we observe the Sabbath. And I think it not unreasonable to insist that the Orthodox receive due credit for this fact. Otherwise it is a discredit, particularly to members of the Orthodox faith of Jewish descent, such as my friend @Yeshua HaDerekh .

Going to the temple (church) to read God's Word. preach God's Word to all people, prayer on the Sabbath, reasoning with the scriptures on the Sabbath are all ways to keep the Sabbath day holy, just as Jesus did. If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, its a duck. To insinuate they did not keep the Sabbath but broke God's commandment is not an argument one can make through God's Word, unless believing the Pharisees the same one who convicted Jesus of breaking their sabbath which is not the same Sabbath as God's Sabbath commandment.

 

[The Liturgist]

Accusations as easy to make, but more compelling when one has evidence to support it.

So therefore, please kindly refrain from accusing me of not keeping the Sabbath. My church worships on the Sabbath, prays on the Sabbath, remembers the repose of Christ in the tomb on the Sabbath, and many other things, and thus I request you cease accusing me of not keeping the Sabbath or of encouraging others to not keep the Sabbath.

Now, if you say you disagree with how I keep the Sabbath, that’s fine, but it is presumptuous and offensive to say I do not keep it whatsoever, and indeed doing so appears to contradict Colossians 2:16.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

So therefore, please kindly refrain from accusing me of not keeping the Sabbath. My church worships on the Sabbath, prays on the Sabbath, remembers the repose of Christ in the tomb on the Sabbath, and many other things, and thus I request you cease accusing me of not keeping the Sabbath or of encouraging others to not keep the Sabbath.

Now, if you say you disagree with how I keep the Sabbath, that’s fine, but it is presumptuous and offensive to say I do not keep it whatsoever, and indeed doing so appears to contradict Colossians 2:16.

Where did I say that? Post the evidence instead of just accusing someone. Col 2:16 is not about the weekly Sabbath as already shown through the context Col 2:14-17

 

[The Liturgist]

Going to the temple (church) to read God's Word. preach God's Word to all people, prayer on the Sabbath, reasoning with the scriptures on the Sabbath are all ways to keep the Sabbath day holy, just as Jesus did. If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, its a duck. To insinuate they did not keep the Sabbath but broke God's commandment is not an argument one can make through God's Word, unless believing the Pharisees the same one who convicted Jesus of breaking their sabbath which is not the Sabbath as God's Sabbath commandment.

I would never accuse nor insinuate that the Apostles broke a commandment of God, who they knew personally. Rather, I am merely commenting objectively on what the text says and does not say. @Ain't Zwinglian has argued we are not required to keep the Sabbath, in which case the Orthodox Christian observation of it could be regarded as supererogation, but you should take up with him that issue, and respect the fact that we in the Orthodox Church do observe it, regardless of whether or not we are required to.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I would never accuse nor insinuate that the Apostles broke a commandment of God, who they knew personally. Rather, I am merely commenting objectively on what the text says and does not say. @Ain't Zwinglian has argued we are not required to keep the Sabbath, in which case the Orthodox Christian observation of it could be regarded as supererogation, but you should take up with him that issue, and respect the fact that we in the Orthodox Church do observe it, regardless of whether or not we are required to.

It says they were keeping every Sabbath in a holy manner, which is evidence they kept the Sabbath, not that they didn't.

Acts 13:42 42 So when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath.

Instead of asking for day one preaching or the apostles telling them there is a new day now to keep holy, which is not there because God's faithful keep God's commandments Rev 14:12

 

[SabbathBlessings]

None of those say the Apostles kept the Sabbath every Saturday.

Are you claiming the apostles redefined what day God said the Sabbath is? And edited God's commandment despite God saying not to. Psa 89:34 Mat 5:18-19

Exodus 20:10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God.

There is no scripture to indicate the apostles countermanded God's commandments. So not sure where you are going with this statement.

 

[The Liturgist]

Where did I say that? Post the evidence instead of just accusing someone. Col 2:16 is not about the weekly Sabbath as already shown through the context Col 2:14-17

Are you saying that you recognize that I observe the Sabbath and do not teach others not to observe it? Because that was not the impression your posts have given, but if you will affirm that i observe the Sabbath - not that you agree with how I observe the Sabbath, but rather, that i observe it according to my beliefs, and do not tell people not to observe it, then that would be greatly appreciated.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Are you saying that you recognize that I observe the Sabbath and do not teach others not to observe it? Because that was not the impression your posts have given, but if you will affirm that i observe the Sabbath - not that you agree with how I observe the Sabbath, but rather, that i observe it according to my beliefs, and do not tell people not to observe it, then that would be greatly appreciated.

You made the accusation, if you can't find where I said this, I would appreciate you acknowledging it.

I am an advocate we obey God the way He says. If someone claims they keep the Sabbath, the way its kept is between them and God, there is nothing we can hide from Him. Yes, we can point out what the scripture says on how to keep it, but judging anyone is not our job, we all have to answer to Jesus one day soon 2 Cor 5:10 Jesus told us to teach each other the commandments Mat 5:19 because disobeying God separated man Isa 59:2 and following that same path of disobedience Heb 4:11 is not how we are reconciled Rev 22:14. All we can do is share and pray.

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

supererogation

supererogation

su·per·er·o·ga·tion the performance of more work than duty requires.

A good new word to use....

 

[JesusFollowerForever]

As they were right to do, unless you now presume to criticize the Apostolic Church. Indeed the Orthodox continue to worship on Saturday and Sunday throughout the hear, with many churches worshipping on every Saturday. As I have mentioned in this thread.

This is why I am so bewildered by Adventist criticisms of us - they seem to be driven by the fact that we also worship on Sunday. For I keep the Sabbath according to the praxis of my church.



As I have repeatedly said, I observe the Sabbath. Please stop accusing me of not observing it or of breaking it, or of encouraging others to do so.

Just because you disagree with how I keep the Sabbath does not give you the right to say I don’t keep it.

For me, I cannot criticize the fact that your church worships on Sunday and Saturday. so I may know, for your church, do you worship in the same way both days? what are the differences, can you still do work on Saturday. This is not a trick question I would just like to know, I have almost NO knowledge of other churches and denomination, I follow the words of God through the bible, I moved in a village away from Montreal several years ago but there are no interesting churches that match the truth of the bible that I could find at this time.

Blessings.

 

[JesusFollowerForever]

One area where I strongly agree with our friend @SabbathBlessings (and it might surprise her to know that I agree with her, but I do), is that there is only one Gospel, and for the Scriptural reasons she cited in another thread, for example, 1 Galatians 1:8-9.

The example you cited of an apparent disparity between St. Paul and St. James is no disparity at all - it is the case that we must have a living faith in Christ, or otherwise we are just engaging in hypocrisy, and nothing in the writings of St. Paul contradicts that. On the contrary, we read St. Paul in the context of St. James, and vice versa. This is called “exegesis”, as opposed to “eisegesis” which is the deeply flawed approach of selecting only Scriptural verses which support your doctrine and which you immediately understand.

I would hope that Ellen G. White addressed this issue in her writings, and I would assume she did, but if not, plenty of other Christians have, including Protestants, Catholics and Orthodox.

Lately in General Theology, many people have been arguing that there are two Gospels, a “Gospel of Grace” and a “Gospel of the Kingdom”, one meant for Gentiles and one meant for Jews, but we can exclude that possibility based on Galatians 3:28 - there is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, neither male nor female, for all are one in Christ Jesus.

Indeed the epistle of Galatians has a clear theme - that there is only one Gospel.

@SabbathBlessings
many years ago i did this exercise, I wrote down the message of both Jesus and Paul and did a comparison, I cold see differences. I condensed this info and dug it up from my files;

Jesus' core message revolves around the Kingdom of God, love, and repentance. He emphasizes the importance of loving God and one’s neighbor (Matthew 22:37-39) and calls for a transformative repentance (Mark 1:15). Jesus teaches about the nature of God as a loving Father and illustrates His principles through parables, stressing humility, mercy, and forgiveness (Luke 15:11-32). His teachings often challenge social norms and religious legalism, advocating for a heart-centered obedience to God's will.

Paul's core message, from his epistles, focuses on justification by faith, the grace of God, and the inclusion of Gentiles in the promise of salvation. He emphasizes that salvation comes through faith in Jesus Christ rather than adherence to the Law (Romans 3:28). Paul underscores the transformative power of grace, which leads to a new identity in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17). He also addresses issues of community and living out faith in practical terms, urging believers to embody love and unity within the body of Christ (Ephesians 4:1-3).

To me these gospels have some common elements but also differences.

Blessings

 

[SabbathBlessings]

@SabbathBlessings
many years ago i did this exercise, I wrote down the message of both Jesus and Paul and did a comparison, I cold see differences. I condensed this info and dug it up from my files;

Jesus' core message revolves around the Kingdom of God, love, and repentance. He emphasizes the importance of loving God and one’s neighbor (Matthew 22:37-39) and calls for a transformative repentance (Mark 1:15). Jesus teaches about the nature of God as a loving Father and illustrates His principles through parables, stressing humility, mercy, and forgiveness (Luke 15:11-32). His teachings often challenge social norms and religious legalism, advocating for a heart-centered obedience to God's will.

Paul's core message, from his epistles, focuses on justification by faith, the grace of God, and the inclusion of Gentiles in the promise of salvation. He emphasizes that salvation comes through faith in Jesus Christ rather than adherence to the Law (Romans 3:28). Paul underscores the transformative power of grace, which leads to a new identity in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17). He also addresses issues of community and living out faith in practical terms, urging believers to embody love and unity within the body of Christ (Ephesians 4:1-3).

To me these gospels have some common elements but also differences.

Blessings

I can see how people can come to these conclusions, but from my understanding, God has a way of saying the same thing through a variety of different ways by different people, that may seem different, but is essentially the same message.

The eternal gospel message is the good news that Jesus died for our sins, that when we believe (means be live Him) and repent and turn from sin, we find eternal life in Jesus Christ. Most people leave out repentance out of this message that Christ and Paul did not. Most people don't allow the bible to define sin, which both Christ and Paul point to the same law (and others) 1 John 3:4 Rom 7:7 James 2:10-12 Mat 5:19-30 Romans 14:23

Both Christ and Paul taught this message but in slightly different ways of saying it.

Jesus: Mark 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach and to say, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”
John 11:25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live.
Luke 24: 46 Then He said to them, “Thus it is written, [a]and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, 47 and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Paul: Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
2 Cor 7:10 For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death.
Acts 16:31 So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.”


Both taught the importance of the law

Jesus: John 14:15 “If you love Me, [a]keep My commandments.
Mat 19:17 So He said to him, [e]“Why do you call Me good? [f]No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.” 18 He said to Him, “Which ones?” Jesus said, “‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ 19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ ”

Paul: 1 Cor 7:19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters.
Rom 7:12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.
Romans 2: 12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law 13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;


Both condemned those who don't keep God's law

Jesus:
Mat 15:3 He answered and said to them, “Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? 4 For God commanded, saying, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 5 But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God”— 6 then he need not honor his father [a]or mother.’ Thus you have made the [b]commandment of God of no effect by your tradition. 7 Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying: 8 ‘These people [c]draw near to Me with their mouth, And honor Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me. 9 And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’
Mat 7:23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
Mat 5:19 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


Paul
Romans 2:22 You who say, “Do not commit adultery,” do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23 You who make your boast in the law, do you dishonor God through breaking the law?
Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

These are just a few examples. What sadly people do is read one of these verses and ignore the others, but they all work in harmony together. Also with Paul's writings he had to address a lot of issues with the Jews requiring Gentiles to be circumcised to be saved, which essentially means one could save themselves but we can't, we need Jesus. For example, most people will insert in Galatians the Sabbath commandment, but not once did Paul mention the Sabbath in Galatians, the main law he kept referring to was circumcision. He addressed it several times in several chapters. Many people try to insert the Sabbath when the context doesn't support it. Paul generally tells us the law he is referring to, which is also why its important to understand the differences between the law that is perfect for converting the soul written by the finger of God Psa 19:7 Exo 31:18 that is holy, just and good Rom 7:12 compared to the law of Moses that was outside the ark as a witness and against Deut 31:24-26 many confuse these laws, but the law that is perfect never becomes the law that is contrary and against and without proper understanding or caring, people will get lost with some of Paul's writings because he just uses the generic term law, but the context will tell us the law he is referring to. He was also hard to understand which doesn't help with people trying to support lawlessness, which is not what Paul taught.

Bottom line: We are not justified or saved by keeping God's law, we are saved by grace through faith. We are however Judged by the law James 2:10-12 Ecc 12:13-14 Mat 5:19-30 Rev 22:14-15 and all of us sinned and deserve the death penalty. But through the grace of God and by our faith and love in Him we can turn from our sins, repent and forsake our sins Pro 28:13 and walk in newness in Christ though His power obeying His commandments John 14:15-18, not to be saved, but because one is saved Rev 14:12. This is the faith that reconciles us Rev 22:14. Most people teach we can be saved in our sins, but we need a conversion and Jesus came to save us from sin Mat 1:21

 

[JesusFollowerForever]

I can see how people can come to these conclusions, but from my understanding, God has a way of saying the same thing through a variety of different ways by different people, that may seem different, but is essentially the same message.

The eternal gospel message is the good news that Jesus died for our sins, that when we believe (means be live Him) and repent and turn from sin, we find eternal life in Jesus Christ. Most people leave out repentance out of this message that Christ and Paul did not. Most people don't allow the bible to define sin, which both Christ and Paul point to the same law (and others) 1 John 3:4 Rom 7:7 James 2:10-12 Mat 5:19-30 Romans 14:23

Both Christ and Paul taught this message but in slightly different ways of saying it.

Jesus: Mark 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach and to say, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”
John 11:25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live.
Luke 24: 46 Then He said to them, “Thus it is written, [a]and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, 47 and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Paul: Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
2 Cor 7:10 For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death.
Acts 16:31 So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.”


Both taught the importance of the law

Jesus: John 14:15 “If you love Me, [a]keep My commandments.
Mat 19:17 So He said to him, [e]“Why do you call Me good? [f]No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.” 18 He said to Him, “Which ones?” Jesus said, “‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ 19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ ”

Paul: 1 Cor 7:19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters.
Rom 7:12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.
Romans 2: 12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law 13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;


Both condemned those who don't keep God's law

Jesus:
Mat 15:3 He answered and said to them, “Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? 4 For God commanded, saying, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 5 But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God”— 6 then he need not honor his father [a]or mother.’ Thus you have made the [b]commandment of God of no effect by your tradition. 7 Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying: 8 ‘These people [c]draw near to Me with their mouth, And honor Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me. 9 And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’
Mat 7:23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
Mat 5:19 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


Paul
Romans 2:22 You who say, “Do not commit adultery,” do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23 You who make your boast in the law, do you dishonor God through breaking the law?
Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

These are just a few examples. What sadly people do is read one of these verses and ignore the others, but they all work in harmony together. Also with Paul's writings he had to address a lot of issues with the Jews requiring Gentiles to be circumcised to be saved, which essentially means one could save themselves but we can't, we need Jesus. For example, most people will insert in Galatians the Sabbath commandment, but not once did Paul mention the Sabbath in Galatians, the main law he kept referring to was circumcision. He addressed it several times in several chapters. Many people try to insert the Sabbath when the context doesn't support it. Paul generally tells us the law he is referring to, which is also why its important to understand the differences between the law that is perfect for converting the soul written by the finger of God Psa 19:7 Exo 31:18 that is holy, just and good Rom 7:12 compared to the law of Moses that was outside the ark as a witness and against Deut 31:24-26 many confuse these laws, but the law that is perfect never becomes the law that is contrary and against and without proper understanding or caring, people will get lost with some of Paul's writings because he just uses the generic term law, but the context will tell us the law he is referring to. He was also hard to understand which doesn't help with people trying to support lawlessness, which is not what Paul taught.

Bottom line: We are not justified or saved by keeping God's law, we are saved by grace through faith. We are however Judged by the law James 2:10-12 Ecc 12:13-14 Mat 5:19-30 Rev 22:14-15 and all of us sinned and deserve the death penalty. But through the grace of God and by our faith and love in Him we can turn from our sins, repent and forsake our sins Pro 28:13 and walk in newness in Christ though His power obeying His commandments John 14:15-18, not to be saved, but because one is saved Rev 14:12. This is the faith that reconciles us Rev 22:14. Most people teach we can be saved in our sins, but we need a conversion and Jesus came to save us from sin Mat 1:21

Yes there are many similarities but also Paul was not always constant in his message thus the confusion I see from many about the commandments, the new covenant. I could list verses that reflect this but it is outside the scope of this thread but we could discuss later.

Blessings and thank you, it was a good post.