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Mary was a good person and had a sinful nature like all of us.

RileyG

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Certainly the word catholic means universal, but that doesn't make the Roman Catholic Church universal.
What do you mean by universal? it's certainly found all over the world ;)
That doesn't explain why, in your view, Mary had to be sinless. Your view seems to say (and please correct me if I'm mistaken on this) that Mary was born of two parents who were not sinless, yet Mary herself was sinless, but for Jesus to be born sinless, He needed two sinless parents, God and in your view Mary.
This was already discussed for the greek word in Luke 1:28. She was FULL OF GRACE. And yes, her parents were NOT sinless.
 
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NotUrAvgGuy

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...uhh church universal literally means Catholic Church, bud.
No, the church universal is the body of believers on earth regardless of which church, if any, they attend. The RCC is universal but it's not the universal church.
 
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David Lamb

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What do you mean by universal? it's certainly found all over the world ;)

This was already discussed for the greek word in Luke 1:28. She was FULL OF GRACE. And yes, her parents were NOT sinless.
The Roman Catholic Church is indeed found all over the world, but there are plenty of Christians who are not members of it, so it's not universal in the sense of being the only church/denomination.
 
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NotUrAvgGuy

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I don't know how many times I have stated that in Isaiah the king gives the key of the House of David to his prime minister as a sign of authority for when the king is absent. Jesus is the KING, not the prime minister. While Jesus holds all power and glory Jesus can give the key to Peter or any other pope or person as he wishes. The king does not LOSE authority just because he may be absent. And Jesus does not have a master who gives Him authority for when the master is absent.
The Isaiah passage clearly prefigures Jesus and the prophecy is not limited or specific to the office of prime minister. Peter wasn't a prime minister. While Jesus is God, there are many passages in Scripture in which Jesus submits himself to the will of the Father. Passages in which the Father gives things to the Son. Jesus did submit himself to the authority of the Father. The Father gives the kingdom to the Son. Jesus does not give it to anyone.
 
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NotUrAvgGuy

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You're mistaken on my view. Jesus was to be born sinless whether His mother was a sinner or not. God chose not. Eve too came into the world sinless.
Yes, God could have done it any way He wanted to. I see no clear teaching He chose to make Mary sinless. Nor do I see any teaching that Mary is the "New Eve" so comparing her to Eve is a forced comparison.
 
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rturner76

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Mary was more than just a "good person," she was the human vessel that would bring forth the human incarnation of the true and living God in the form of his son. God (the Holy Spirit) is his father and Mary is his mother. God would not just choose any "good person," but a woman who is worthy above all other women on the Earth. So I think she was a bit more than just a good person.
 
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Valletta

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Yes, God could have done it any way He wanted to. I see no clear teaching He chose to make Mary sinless. Nor do I see any teaching that Mary is the "New Eve" so comparing her to Eve is a forced comparison.
As I have pointed out the teaching on the Holy Trinity is not explicitly stated in the Bible.
 
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Valletta

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The Isaiah passage clearly prefigures Jesus and the prophecy is not limited or specific to the office of prime minister. Peter wasn't a prime minister. While Jesus is God, there are many passages in Scripture in which Jesus submits himself to the will of the Father. Passages in which the Father gives things to the Son. Jesus did submit himself to the authority of the Father. The Father gives the kingdom to the Son. Jesus does not give it to anyone.
Again, Jesus is not the prime minister nor prefigured by the prime minister. That is an incorrect personal interpretation.
 
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NotUrAvgGuy

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What do you mean by universal? it's certainly found all over the world ;)

This was already discussed for the greek word in Luke 1:28. She was FULL OF GRACE. And yes, her parents were NOT sinless.
Stephen was also said to be full of grace yet you don't call him sinless. The same word is used in Ephesians 1:6 where it means we were "graciously accepted", "made us subjects of His grace", and "embraced us in the arms of His grace." It is better translated "one highly favored." She was highly favored to be chosen to be the mother of Jesus. It does not mean she was sinless. It was an unfortunate translation in the Vulgate that rendered it "full of grace" instead of "highly favored."
 
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Valletta

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Stephen was also said to be full of grace yet you don't call him sinless. The same word is used in Ephesians 1:6 where it means we were "graciously accepted", "made us subjects of His grace", and "embraced us in the arms of His grace." It is better translated "one highly favored." She was highly favored to be chosen to be the mother of Jesus. It does not mean she was sinless. It was an unfortunate translation in the Vulgate that rendered it "full of grace" instead of "highly favored."
As I have pointed out, the original Koine Greek Biblical wording used is different for Mary and Stephen. The word used by the Angel Gabriel was unique in the BIble, and it was used as a title which means she was being described, indicating Mary in the past had been imbued with a full and everlasting grace. Mary was "full of grace" and she was "highly favored," but those translations fall short of the meaning of the word. There is no English equivalent. The root word of the Greek word used to describe Mary means "grace," and the modifiers described the type and time of the that grace. It could be much better argued that leaving the root word "grace" out of any translation would be unfortunate. When one reads the Bible it is important to remember the Bible was not written in English, that translations often fall short, and it is beneficial to study the original language.
 
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NotUrAvgGuy

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Again, Jesus is not the prime minister nor prefigured by the prime minister. That is an incorrect personal interpretation.
Revelation 3 is clearly a reference to Christ. He is the only one who is "the holy one, the true one, who has the key of David, who opens and no one will shut, who shuts and no one opens."

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me. John 14:6

Jesus is the door to heaven. No one may enter but through Jesus. The "key" to unlock that door is faith in Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior. The throne of David was said to be the seat of the Messiah and that only applies to Jesus. Eliakim was being given the "key" to a lessor office whereas Christ is being given the "key" to the throne of David meaning His is the Messiah. Peter, the Apostles, and even we hold the "key" to heaven when we proclaim the Gospel. Peter's profession of faith "thou art the Christ, the Son of the Living God" is a summation of the Gospel and believing that and proclaiming that is the "key" to everlasting life. The Apostles were the first tasked with proclaiming that Gospel to the World. Peter gave the first altar call. He was the first to use that "key" but not the only.
 
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Valletta

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Revelation 3 is clearly a reference to Christ. He is the only one who is "the holy one, the true one, who has the key of David, who opens and no one will shut, who shuts and no one opens."

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me. John 14:6

Jesus is the door to heaven. No one may enter but through Jesus. The "key" to unlock that door is faith in Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior. The throne of David was said to be the seat of the Messiah and that only applies to Jesus. Eliakim was being given the "key" to a lessor office whereas Christ is being given the "key" to the throne of David meaning His is the Messiah. Peter, the Apostles, and even we hold the "key" to heaven when we proclaim the Gospel. Peter's profession of faith "thou art the Christ, the Son of the Living God" is a summation of the Gospel and believing that and proclaiming that is the "key" to everlasting life. The Apostles were the first tasked with proclaiming that Gospel to the World. Peter gave the first altar call. He was the first to use that "key" but not the only.
There are many "keys." Don't confuse the key given to Peter with other keys. Jesus used words paralleling Isaiah 22 when giving the key to Rock (Peter,) and that key to no other Apostle. Indeed other popes who succeeded Peter were given that key.
 
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NotUrAvgGuy

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As I have pointed out, the original Koine Greek Biblical wording used is different for Mary and Stephen. The word used by the Angel Gabriel was unique in the BIble, and it was used as a title which means she was being described, indicating Mary in the past had been imbued with a full and everlasting grace. Mary was "full of grace" and she was "highly favored," but those translations fall short of the meaning of the word. There is no English equivalent. The root word of the Greek word used to describe Mary means "grace," and the modifiers described the type and time of the that grace. It could be much better argued that leaving the root word "grace" out of any translation would be unfortunate. When one reads the Bible it is important to remember the Bible was not written in English, that translations often fall short, and it is beneficial to study the original language.
The truth is that this same term is used in Ephesians 1:6 where it describes those who, by God's grace, have been "made accepted (χαριτόω) in the beloved." Thus, it would be a perfectly good and superior translation of Luke 1:28 to say: "Rejoice, thou which hast been made accepted, the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women!"
 
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NotUrAvgGuy

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There are many "keys." Don't confuse the key given to Peter with other keys. Jesus used words paralleling Isaiah 22 when giving the key to Rock (Peter,) and that key to no other Apostle. Indeed other popes who succeeded Peter were given that key.
Again, I see no support for this interpretation and it relies on RC tradition. You cannot prove from Isaiah 22 that Peter was given a key that gave him and his successors authoritative power. Key would represent the "key" to the Gospel and I believe Isaiah 22 only applies to Christ. You are still left with the fact that no other Gospel writer refers to Peter as possessing such a key. Peter never wrote of or claimed such a key. The other 3 Gospels make no mention of it in their parallel accounts including Mark's Gospel which came from Peter. It took centuries for bishops of Rome to begin to claim such authority and power. Even though the early church was persecuted such a critical office and claim would have been mentioned. I see no support for it other than the later RC claim that it is so.

If you choose to submit to the Pope, that is your business. I don't recognize him as having any authority except within the RCC. I do not believe him to be Peter's successor. There have been many wicked and sinful popes and those who abused their office. While the RCC does not claim popes are sinless, I see a sordid past as popes raised armies and waged wars to secure lands and ensure allegiance to Rome. They allowed indulgences to be sold to fill the church's coffers. They tried to keep quiet the abuse of children by priests fearing the public relations damage it would do to the church. I do not see men like Peter.
 
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Valletta

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Again, I see no support for this interpretation and it relies on RC tradition. You cannot prove from Isaiah 22 that Peter was given a key that gave him and his successors authoritative power. Key would represent the "key" to the Gospel and I believe Isaiah 22 only applies to Christ. You are still left with the fact that no other Gospel writer refers to Peter as possessing such a key. Peter never wrote of or claimed such a key. The other 3 Gospels make no mention of it in their parallel accounts including Mark's Gospel which came from Peter. It took centuries for bishops of Rome to begin to claim such authority and power. Even though the early church was persecuted such a critical office and claim would have been mentioned. I see no support for it other than the later RC claim that it is so.

If you choose to submit to the Pope, that is your business. I don't recognize him as having any authority except within the RCC. I do not believe him to be Peter's successor. There have been many wicked and sinful popes and those who abused their office. While the RCC does not claim popes are sinless, I see a sordid past as popes raised armies and waged wars to secure lands and ensure allegiance to Rome. They allowed indulgences to be sold to fill the church's coffers. They tried to keep quiet the abuse of children by priests fearing the public relations damage it would do to the church. I do not see men like Peter.
You're going back to the anti-Catholic tactic of throwing out more and more accusations as answers are presented to you. As Bishop Sheen said:"There are not a hundred people in America who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions of people who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church." It is folly to believe that because something is in the Bible one time that it somehow not important.
2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is inspired by God and[a] profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,[b] RSVCE
To kill two birds with one stone: John 8:6-8 This they said to test him, that they might have some charge to bring against him. Jesus bent down and wrote with his finger on the ground. And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, “Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her.” And once more he bent down and wrote with his finger on the ground. RSVCE
This important passage is also found just once, but I don't believe any of us here want our names written in the earth as per Jeremiah 17:13. Of course, Peter's name is mentioned more times in the Bible than that of any other Apostle. In fact, only the name of Jesus is mentioned more times in the New Testament than Peter's name. John waited at the tomb so that Peter could enter first. And only Peter was given the name "Rock," a name used a number of times in the Bible to describe God, and given that name at the time when He was given his new position. It is Peter that Jesus wanted to feed His sheep.
 
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NotUrAvgGuy

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You're going back to the anti-Catholic tactic of throwing out more and more accusations as answers are presented to you. As Bishop Sheen said:"There are not a hundred people in America who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions of people who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church." It is folly to believe that because something is in the Bible one time that it somehow not important.
2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is inspired by God and[a] profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,[b] RSVCE
To kill two birds with one stone: John 8:6-8 This they said to test him, that they might have some charge to bring against him. Jesus bent down and wrote with his finger on the ground. And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, “Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her.” And once more he bent down and wrote with his finger on the ground. RSVCE
This important passage is also found just once, but I don't believe any of us here want our names written in the earth as per Jeremiah 17:13. Of course, Peter's name is mentioned more times in the Bible than that of any other Apostle. In fact, only the name of Jesus is mentioned more times in the New Testament than Peter's name. John waited at the tomb so that Peter could enter first. And only Peter was given the name "Rock," a name used a number of times in the Bible to describe God, and given that name at the time when He was given his new position. It is Peter that Jesus wanted to feed His sheep.
How many times a name is mentioned does not prove anything. Peter's name is mentioned more than Paul's but Paul is mentioned far more from Acts on making him the preeminant figure of the early church and its most prolific writer.
 
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NotUrAvgGuy

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How many times a name is mentioned does not prove anything. Peter's name is mentioned more than Paul's but Paul is mentioned far more from Acts on making him the preeminant figure of the early church and its most prolific writer.
I understand the RCC having grown up in it. I don't hate the RCC. I only hate false teaching from any church.
 
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Valletta

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How many times a name is mentioned does not prove anything. Peter's name is mentioned more than Paul's but Paul is mentioned far more from Acts on making him the preeminant figure of the early church and its most prolific writer.
You have been asserting that because an event was described once in the Bible it was not that important. Couple that with your statement about "no support" for Peter being pope I thought I would give it a mention.
 
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NotUrAvgGuy

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You have been asserting that because an event was described once in the Bible it was not that important. Couple that with your statement about "no support" for Peter being pope I thought I would give it a mention.
Not because it was mentioned once but because nothing else lends support to it, and there are other legitimate ways those words could be understood. We have the words of Jesus, but in the account in question, Jesus does not elaborate. We don't know what discussion occurred after those words and can't speculate. None of the NT writers give us further insight into what Jesus meant. Even Peter does not. If Jesus had appointed Peter to be the first pope, we have read nothing more about it and have seen no evidence of it in the Book of Acts or the NT epistles. While that does not prove the RC interpretation is wrong, it gives it no further backing. Given the possibility of other interpretations, I, for one, don't believe Jesus granted Peter a papal-type office.
 
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Valletta

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Not because it was mentioned once but because nothing else lends support to it, and there are other legitimate ways those words could be understood. We have the words of Jesus, but in the account in question, Jesus does not elaborate. We don't know what discussion occurred after those words and can't speculate. None of the NT writers give us further insight into what Jesus meant. Even Peter does not. If Jesus had appointed Peter to be the first pope, we have read nothing more about it and have seen no evidence of it in the Book of Acts or the NT epistles. While that does not prove the RC interpretation is wrong, it gives it no further backing. Given the possibility of other interpretations, I, for one, don't believe Jesus granted Peter a papal-type office.
Acts 15:1-12
1 But some men came down from Judea and were teaching the brethren, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.” 2 And when Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and debate with them, Paul and Barnabas and some of the others were appointed to go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and the elders about this question. 3 So, being sent on their way by the church, they passed through both Phoenicia and Samaria, reporting the conversion of the Gentiles, and they gave great joy to all the brethren. 4 When they came to Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church and the apostles and the elders, and they declared all that God had done with them. 5 But some believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees rose up, and said, “It is necessary to circumcise them, and to charge them to keep the law of Moses.” 6 The apostles and the elders were gathered together to consider this matter. 7 And after there had been much debate, Peter rose and said to them, “Brethren, you know that in the early days God made choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 And God who knows the heart bore witness to them, giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us; 9 and he made no distinction between us and them, but cleansed their hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore why do you make trial of God by putting a yoke upon the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? 11 But we believe that we shall be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will.” 12 And all the assembly kept silence; and they listened to Barnabas and Paul as they related what signs and wonders God had done through them among the Gentiles. RSVCE
 
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