How Snakes Lost Their Legs

[Diamond72]

If for a moment we read the passage without the preconceived notion that this is a physical snake.

Do you question that Eve was talking to a snake or a Lizzard? How do we deal with the story in Numbers 22:30 of Balaam and his talking Donkey? For me I think this conversation is going on in our imagination. We surmise that this is what the animal is saying to us. If we know for sure or not. Imagining this conversation reflects our tendency to project thoughts and feelings onto animals.

30But the donkey said to Balaam, “Am I not the donkey you have ridden all your life until today? Have I ever treated you this way before?” “No,” he replied.

 

[Rose_bud]

Do you question that Eve was talking to a snake or a Lizzard?

Ofcourse, as a student of the Word and as you pointed out earlier to discover deeper truth or meaning its important to be critical. At this point, I find that the weight of biblical evidence for a non-literal reading of the serpent in Genesis 3 is more persuasive. This in no way implies that God cannot speak through miraculous means.

How do we deal with the story in Numbers 22:30 of Balaam and his talking Donkey? For me I think this conversation is going on in our imagination. We surmise that this is what the animal is saying to us. If we know for sure or not. Imagining this conversation reflects our tendency to project thoughts and feelings onto animals.

30But the donkey said to Balaam, “Am I not the donkey you have ridden all your life until today? Have I ever treated you this way before?” “No,” he replied.

Interesting perspective.

I believe God can use whatever He desires to speak to us. However, the difference is that the one is called the nacash, devil, satan. The other a donkey that spoke with a human voice (2Peter 2:16). The nacash in Genesis is evil personified, deceiving humanity, whereas the donkey serves as an unlikely prophet, conveying Gods message to Balaam.
Besides the correlation between "talking creatures". Balaam himself is regarded as a practioner of divination, an enchanterer, a whisperer, relating to a "nachash" (Numbers 22:7).

Supposedly a "seer", yet his perception or vision was limited,(Numbers 24:3-4). It was the donkey that could perceive the Truth and through whom God reveals the truth. The donkey in this situation is the real prophet, highlighting Balaams folly and spiritual blindness. The donkey is the one humble and obedient a contrast as usually these animals are stubborn and rebellious.

God has a way of revealing truth through contrast so that we are aware of Him.

In Genesis 3, the nachash is distinct from the donkey in Numbers 22. In fact, the nachash appears to have more similarity with Balaam than his donkey. Although their appears to be both "talking creatures" their purposes and contexts differ.

 

[Grafted In]

I'm doing quite well Rose Bud. I hope you're equally blessed and prospering.



The serpent is described as crafty in Genesis. Some versions say cunning or shrewd instead. He wasn't like the others in that regard. He could speak and permitted the devil to use his mouth that's why he was judged. She didn't know she was talking to the devil. She thought it was the serpent. That's why she said he deceived her and he did.

His craftiness wasn't guile. It was something the Lord bestowed that made him shrewd. He wasn't deceived by the devil. He knew what he was and acted anyway. When we're dealing with children of darkness you can't use your natural mind. We don't think alike and you'll underestimate them. You have to think like a snake to deal with them. But we don't act like one. That's the caveat.

There are two judgments pronounced in the text. One for the serpent and the other for the devil. They're not one and the same.

~bella

Thank you, Bella. I've never mentioned to anyone my confusion as to how the serpent would be made to crawl on his belly when 1Peter 5:8 tells us "Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
That has left me confused until now.
Obviously they are not the same.

I watched a fascinating teaching regarding David, after killing Goliath, carried his head to Jeruselum and burried it on the place of the skull where Jesus was crucified. The preacher said that Jesus's heal literally bruised his skull when he was crucified.
Most concider the place to be a bluff or outcropping with cavities that appear to be eyes on the place Jesus was crucified. Perhaps it was, but He was crucified directly above the place David burried Goliath's head., according to this teacher.
His words, not mine.
Goliath perhaps was representative of the serpent who God caused to crawl on his belly.

I am not well read enough to discern this idea. Perhaps someone could add to this?
Bill

 

[Diamond72]

a donkey that spoke with a human voice (2Peter 2:16).

Actually the word means to communicate. We see this in Genesis chapter one when were are told that "God said". Does God have a mouth? These anthropomorphic expressions help us relate to and understand divine actions using human terms, even though God transcends physical form.

 

[Rose_bud]

Actually the word means to communicate. We see this in Genesis chapter one when were are told that "God said". Does God have a mouth? These anthropomorphic expressions help us relate to and understand divine actions using human terms, even though God transcends physical form.

Which word are you referring to that means to communicate? Speaking with a human voice is a way of communicating.

 

[Diamond72]

Which word are you referring to that means to communicate?

I am talking about the Hebrew letter "Pey". Pey (פ) is the 17th letter of the Hebrew alphabet. It represents the number 80 and is often associated with the mouth, speech, and expression. Pey symbolizes communication and the power of words. The other letter in the word is Yood, this is the smallest letter there is. Every time your pen touches the paper it makes a Yood. So all the letters start with a Yood.

Yod (י) is the 10th letter of the Hebrew alphabet. It's often associated with a divine spark or a point of energy. In Jewish mysticism, it represents the idea of a beginning or a seed, reflecting the potential and power contained within small, seemingly insignificant things.

In the English Bible "God said" appears around 500 times. It’s a powerful reminder of divine authority and the creative force of God's word.

Yod symbolizes the divine spark, the starting point of creation, which can inspire the idea of movement and progression, much like a spiral.

 

[Rose_bud]

I am talking about the Hebrew letter "Pey". Pey (פ) is the 17th letter of the Hebrew alphabet. It represents the number 80 and is often associated with the mouth, speech, and expression. Pey symbolizes communication and the power of words. The other letter in the word is Yood, this is the smallest letter there is. Every time your pen touches the paper it makes a Yood. So all the letters start with a Yood.

Yod (י) is the 10th letter of the Hebrew alphabet. It's often associated with a divine spark or a point of energy. In Jewish mysticism, it represents the idea of a beginning or a seed, reflecting the potential and power contained within small, seemingly insignificant things.

In the English Bible "God said" appears around 500 times. It’s a powerful reminder of divine authority and the creative force of God's word.

Yod symbolizes the divine spark, the starting point of creation, which can inspire the idea of movement and progression, much like a spiral.

View attachment 355933

This is very interesting, thank you. I'm a bit unclear how this relates to the "talking donkey"?

 

[Diamond72]

This is very interesting, thank you. I'm a bit unclear how this relates to the "talking donkey"?

Most people say they talk to their animals. But no one says that they use English.

 

[Diamond72]

are you implying 100 million years then passed suddenly after God said that, and this serpent beast lost its legs and became a snake in a moment of time?

The transition from limbed reptiles to limbless snakes wasn't a sudden event but a gradual process of evolution influenced by environmental factors and genetic changes. Fossil records and genetic studies help scientists piece together this intricate puzzle, but it took many millions of years for these changes to occur. The main point is that science confirms that the Bible is accurate and true.

The concept of male and female organisms evolved with the advent of complex multicellular life. The first sexually reproducing organisms were likely simple multicellular organisms that appeared hundreds of millions of years ago. Genesis 1 27

In Chapter two God made man and women, Adam and Eve. This has taken place in the last 6,000 years. This has to do with the breath of life.

 

[Diamond72]

This is very interesting, thank you. I'm a bit unclear how this relates to the "talking donkey"?

I do not think the conversation he had with his donkey was any different than the conversation that you or I have with our pets or animals. It was more a product of his imagination.

 

[David Lamb]

I do not think the conversation he had with his donkey was any different than the conversation that you or I have with our pets or animals. It was more a product of his imagination.

Where in the bible are we given the idea that the words spoken by the donkey was a product of his imagination?

 

[Diamond72]

Where in the bible are we given the idea that the words spoken by the donkey was a product of his imagination?

I did this by doing a study on the two Hebrew letters that make up the word used in the Bible. While the first letter does represent the word mouth. That can mean any communication and not just spoken words. Also common sense tells us that when people talk to animals they do not use all that much English. I talk to animals all the time. Even birds but it is more telepathic and less verbal. The Hebrew letter for "mouth" is פ (Peh). It’s the 17th letter of the Hebrew alphabet and has a numerical value of 80. Fascinating how each letter carries both a sound and a deeper symbolic meaning.

You can believe what ever you want to believe. YOU do not convince me that his donkey could speak perfect King James English like that. Considering the story is already miraculous, thinking about telepathic communication adds another layer of intrigue. In the realm of divine intervention, many things are possible beyond our understanding. It’s fascinating to explore different interpretations of these ancient texts.

I do not have to prove anything. Just show that this is a possible explanation. Even then YOU are free to believe what you want. I am just telling you what I tend to believe until I get more information to go on. I just go by my own experience and how I communicate with animals.

St. Francis of Assisi is well-known for his deep connection with animals. He saw animals as fellow creatures of God and often communicated with them in a way that suggested a profound understanding and respect. There are many stories about how birds and other animals would gather around him while he spoke, and he even preached to them about God's blessings.

If you study NDA stories people say language in Heaven is telepathic and not verbal. We will not even have a mouth there like we do here because we leave our physical body behind when we go to Heaven. Our body returns to the earth until the time of resurrection.

When the veil of the temple was torn at the time of Jesus' crucifixion, many Old Testament saints were resurrected. According to Matthew 27:51-53, these saints came out of their graves and appeared to many in Jerusalem. It's a powerful and miraculous event that signifies the profound impact of Jesus' death and resurrection.

 

[David Lamb]

I did this by doing a study on the two Hebrew letters that make up the word used in the Bible. While the first letter does represent the word mouth. That can mean any communication and not just spoken words. Also common sense tells us that when people talk to animals they do not use all that much English. I talk to animals all the time. Even birds but it is more telepathic and less verbal. The Hebrew letter for "mouth" is פ (Peh). It’s the 17th letter of the Hebrew alphabet and has a numerical value of 80. Fascinating how each letter carries both a sound and a deeper symbolic meaning.

You can believe what ever you want to believe. YOU do not convince me that his donkey could speak perfect King James English like that. Considering the story is already miraculous, thinking about telepathic communication adds another layer of intrigue. In the realm of divine intervention, many things are possible beyond our understanding. It’s fascinating to explore different interpretations of these ancient texts.

I do not have to prove anything. Just show that this is a possible explanation. Even then YOU are free to believe what you want. I am just telling you what I tend to believe until I get more information to go on. I just go by my own experience and how I communicate with animals.

St. Francis of Assisi is well-known for his deep connection with animals. He saw animals as fellow creatures of God and often communicated with them in a way that suggested a profound understanding and respect. There are many stories about how birds and other animals would gather around him while he spoke, and he even preached to them about God's blessings.

If you study NDA stories people say language in Heaven is telepathic and not verbal. We will not even have a mouth there like we do here because we leave our physical body behind when we go to Heaven. Our body returns to the earth until the time of resurrection.

When the veil of the temple was torn at the time of Jesus' crucifixion, many Old Testament saints were resurrected. According to Matthew 27:51-53, these saints came out of their graves and appeared to many in Jerusalem. It's a powerful and miraculous event that signifies the profound impact of Jesus' death and resurrection.

You seem to be suggesting that I am saying things that I didn't even mention. For example, you seem to suggest that the donkey spoke the English of King James I's time. Of course the English language wasn't even around in Balaam's day, and even if it had been, I don't believe he would have been able to speak it. I assume the conversation took place in Hebrew.

Another thing is, I don't know Hebrew, but as far as I am aware, the meaning of a Hebrew word can't be worked out by splitting it into individual letters. And what has the fact that one of the letters of the word for mouth has the numerical value of 80 got to do with the whole question of whether or not this was an imaginary conversation?

You can't interpret the bible by our experience, for many of the things we read there are things we have not experienced. Creation, the Incarnation, the transfiguration, the physical presence of Jesus Christ, water being changed into first-rate wine, dead people like Lazarus being raised to life - these are just some things described in the bible that we have not directly experienced.

 

[AV1611VET]

The transition from limbed reptiles to limbless snakes wasn't a sudden event but a gradual process of evolution influenced by environmental factors and genetic changes.

Then why did you quote Genesis 3:14a?

God is telling this beast of the field that he is going to lose his legs.

And I'm sure Adam is standing there listening to God telling that beast.

Then the beast loses its legs.

Are you implying that that beast that God was talking to just walked off and never lost its legs, but eventually, after millions of years, its offspring did???

That's like telling your son:

"Son, I told you not to cross the street. Just for that, your great-great-great-etc grandson will be grounded for a week!"

 

[Diamond72]

You seem to be suggesting that I am saying things that I didn't even mention. For example, you seem to suggest that the donkey spoke the English of King James I's time. Of course the English language wasn't even around in Balaam's day, and even if it had been, I don't believe He would have been able to speak it. I assume the conversation took place in Hebrew.

This is a conglomerate of multiple conversations I have had with people on here. Sometimes people are confused by sarcasm and that is a part of it to confuse them. My grandmother was a Bierce so I was raised with a lot of that. Ambrose Bierce was an American author, newspaperman, and satirist known for his cynical and sarcastic writing style. But for me it is just humor. My dad did a fair amount of surgery and they have their own kind of humor also. You have to be somewhat stoic to deal with life and death situations.

Another thing is, I don't know Hebrew

Then maybe you should learn a little bit about the Language the Bible is written in.

Then why did you quote Genesis 3:14a?

Because Rome was not built in a day. It could have taken God Billions of Years to do what you think He did in a day. Everything was here in the beginning. NOTHING has been added. You claim it took God seven days. I say God did it all in less than the blink of an eye. In the smallest amount of time that Physics will allow.

 

[AV1611VET]

You claim it took God seven days. I say God did it all in less than the blink of an eye. In the smallest amount of time that Physics will allow.

Again, you can't have Adam standing in the presence of a beast-turned-serpent, if eons of time passed.

Else Adam would be millions and millions of years old when he died, and the Bible says otherwise.

Genesis 5:5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.

 

[Diamond72]

Again, you can't have Adam standing in the presence of a beast-turned-serpent, if eons of time passed.

I just read something in the Preface to a book on the evolution of Wolves into dogs. The book is "embellished with a generous helping of my own imagination".

According to AI "Science is fueled by imagination and creativity. Some of the greatest scientific breakthroughs began as bold, imaginative ideas. Think about Einstein's theory of relativity or the concept of black holes. They started as theoretical constructs in the minds of scientists, then were explored and validated through rigorous scientific methods.

In a way, imagination helps to push the boundaries of what's possible and encourages scientists to think beyond the conventional. So, never underestimate the power of a creative mind in the world of science!"

 

[Diamond72]

Adam would be millions and millions of years old when he died

Contraire Monsieur, you are getting mankind mixed up with the man Adam. Of course with Science this is just a theory.

The block theory of time, also known as the block universe theory, is a model of the universe that states that all time exists in a four-dimensional block of spacetime. In this model, the past, present, and future are all real at the same time, and time doesn't pass.

How about if you tell me the meaning of Hebrews 13:8 it says, "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever." Or Malachi 3:6a: "For I, the Lord, do not change;

We are talking about the "serpent" changing into a snake. Science tells us Lizards evolved into Snakes. We know you believe everything happened in the last 6,000 years.

James Ussher was the Anglican Archbishop of Armagh and Primate of All Ireland in the 17th century1. He is best known for his work on biblical chronology, particularly his calculation that the world was created on October 22, 4004 BC.

I agree with YOU & Bishop Ussher. The modern world, the world we live in began 6,000 years ago.

According to Bishop James Ussher's chronology, Jesus was 30 years old when he began his ministry, and he died three and a half years later, making him 33 years old at the time of his death1. Ussher's calculations were based on a literal interpretation of the Bible, aligning key events to create a timeline.

So, adding 33 years and then 6000 years to 4004 BC would give us 2029 AD. I am not going to try to figure out the months right now BUT the Oct date could be the "conception" of Jesus. "Through the power of the Holy Spirit."

I believe Adam sinned when he was 33 years old. So Jesus was conceived or born 6,000 years after Adam and Jesus when to carvery 33 after he was conceived or born. If you can get the month to line up because he went to carvery before Passover and the church was born on Pentecost 50 days after Passover.

Passover and Pentecost are still celebrated in the church today. Although they use Easter and not the true date for Passover. If anyone can even figure out the Hebrew calendar because the experts do not seem to agree.

Of course you believe the birth of Adam and Jesus was a supper natural event.

 

[AV1611VET]

I just read something in the Preface to a book on the evolution of Wolves into dogs. The book is "embellished with a generous helping of my own imagination".

How do you explain whales before land animals?

Genesis 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

As I have said before, the fourth word of the Bible pwns atheism, and the fifth word pwns evolution.

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created ...

 

[Diamond72]

How do you explain whales before land animals?

What is to explain? He made whales on day five when God said, “Let the water teem with living creatures" Gen 1 21 He made land animals on the sixth day.

As I have said before, the fourth word of the Bible pwns atheism, and the fifth word pwns evolution.

Theistic evolution says that God used evolution to create. But as I said: Science is embellished with a generous amount of imagination. So a lot of science is proven not to be true. I could say true science but no one knows what that is. In fact there is a constant battle over what is and what is not true science.

For those of us that have been in the hospital we know that it is very common for doctors to fight with themselves over the treatment to give their patients. They often do not agree. Ask any nurse, they will tell you.