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Melania Trump passionately defends abortion rights in upcoming memoir

Hans Blaster

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It actually does. "safe, legal, and rare" was basically the "slogan" of Bill Clinton on the subject in the 90's... A time where support for maintaining the precedent of Roe v. Wade was north of 60%.

"safe legal and rare" isn't part of the "pro-choice overton window" anymore.

Washington Post (certainly not a right-wing publication) even did a piece about how "Democrats purged safe legal and rare from the party, and that was out of step with where many voters were at"

Today, Democrats use the phrase at their peril. The party’s base appears unwilling to tolerate a slogan that suggests abortion ought to be “rare,” hearing in it too much of a concession to abortion opponents. As a result, most Democratic candidates have erased from their rhetoric any hint that abortion might be a subject on which reasonable people can disagree, and they’ve altered their policy proposals to match — endorsing the repeal of all restrictions on paying for abortions with federal money, for example. These moves might excite the party’s progressive base, but they put candidates out of step with the average American and even with many of their own voters.
Evidence of just how taboo it has become to use the phrase “safe, legal and rare” came in the most recent presidential primary debate, when Rep. Tulsi Gabbard (Hawaii) uttered the fateful words, giving a nod to Hillary Clinton as she did so: “When she said abortion should be safe, legal and rare,” Gabbard said, “I think she’s correct.” The candidate favors abortion rights early in pregnancy and would codify the Supreme Court’s 1973 ruling in Roe v. Wade, but she’d prohibit abortion during the last three months of pregnancy “unless the life or severe health consequences of a woman are at risk.”


Left-leaning critics quickly descended. The Ohio affiliate of NARAL Pro-Choice America tweeted: “This is a position — making abortion ‘rare’ — not supported by pro-choice advocates.” A headline in Vice said Gabbard was “stuck in the ‘90s,” and the article’s author, Marie Solis, argued that the candidate had revived a “decades-old talking point that pro-choice supporters say only further stigmatizes abortion at a critical moment.”


Fair to say that NARAL is one of the prominent voices for pro-choice advocacy, correct?

When a candidate said they support the "Clinton-era Safe legal and rare", and NARAL's response was accusing them of being "stuck in the 90's", that was pretty telling.

It goes on to further state:
She quoted Amelia Bonow, a co-founder of the pro-abortion-rights group Shout Your Abortion, who said, “I cannot think of a less compelling way to advocate for something than saying that it should be rare. And anyone who uses that phrase is operating from the assumption that abortion is a bad thing.”
In 2012, the Democratic Party excised the word “rare” from its official platform, writing instead that it favored “safe and legal abortion, regardless of ability to pay.”


So even the officially DNC platform removed the "rare" part, and replaced it with "regardless of ability to pay"


To summarize, no... "safe, legal, and rare" is no longer a position that's accepted as a "pro-choice" position anymore by many on the left.

And it's no coincidence that around that time, is when the pro-life crowd became more galvanized in their position and "let sleeping dogs lie" morphed into "okay, you know what...no, we're not going to concede on this anymore"
LOL. Quoting a bunch of activists. SMH.

I didn't say "safe, legal, and rare" was a left position (ever), but was countering your claim that it now:

would get labelled "anti-choice/anti-woman"

which I will stand by as nonsense. You try to "both-sides" centerize everything so hard...

I do actually agree with those who drop "rare" because it is a word inserted under the assumption that there is something shameful about having one.
 
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RileyG

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“Supports it?”
I think he supports a woman’s choice, however she decides.
A choice to kill? He supports a choice to kill?

Yeah, I don't find that credible.

From the pro-life perspective, abortion is indeed MURDER.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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LOL. Quoting a bunch of activists. SMH.

I didn't say "safe, legal, and rare" was a left position (ever), but was countering your claim that it now:

would get labelled "anti-choice/anti-woman"

which I will stand by as nonsense. You try to "both-sides" centerize everything so hard...

I do actually agree with those who drop "rare" because it is a word inserted under the assumption that there is something shameful about having one.

NARAL aren't just "a bunch of activists", they're one of the largest (if not the largest) pro-choice non-profit organizations in the country (with north of 4 million members)...they're a huge lobbying entity in elections, their endorsement or rejection can make or break a democratic candidate in a primary election.

That'd be like trying to dismiss something the NRA said like "universal background checks are not supported by pro-2A advocates", by purely referring to them as "a bunch of activists" (as to imply that they're somehow "fringe") that would be dishonest ...no, they speak for (and represent) the views of large swaths of people, and everyone knows they have enough stroke to play "kingmaker" in a republican primary.



You're shifting the goalposts here... if "safe legal and rare" is, by NARAL's current definition, "not supported by pro-choice advocates", holding that position (that was once Bill Clinton's slogan, and part of the DNC platform for over 2 decades) would be "anti-choice" by their definition, correct?

Their quote: "And anyone who uses that phrase is operating from the assumption that abortion is a bad thing.”

So, they see elective abortions as a "good thing" by that logic?


Abortion is a bad thing, in that, it means something very bad or very unfortunate happened.
Either someone needs one because they were raped or has health issues (bad thing)
Or, someone wants to get an elective one because
-- birth control failed (bad thing)
-- they were being irresponsible and not using birth control (bad thing)

We should be striving for each of those scenarios to be non-existent (or as rare as humanly possible), wouldn't you agree?

Another aspect of this that I haven't delved into yet...a lot of backlash happened when more and more pro-choice advocates started pushing to repeal the Hyde amendment.

We went from "abortions should be a rare as possible, it's certainly not a good thing, but it's necessary to have a safe & legal avenue when it's needed" to "abortions aren't a bad thing at all" to "you should have to chip in to pay for them"

"Centerizing" the discussions on this topic is a good thing, as it explains why there was a sudden shift and desire for repealing 4 decades worth of legal precedent that 70% of people were willing to tolerate and leave be (even if they weren't crazy about it).


Again to use another gun analogy.

Fair to assume you're not really a big "gun person", correct?

If gun advocates started expanding their position from "I get to have my guns per DC vs. Heller scotus ruling, you'll just have to tolerate it" to

"Now, you have to say that guns are a good thing so that you don't stigmatize/shame gun owners"
and
"You also have to chip in extra taxes to help low-income people buy guns, because since it's a codified right, it should be accessible and affordable even if someone doesn't have much money, it doesn't matter that you don't agree with it"

If they started pushing for something like that, fair to assume your resolve in pushing for more gun control regulations would become stronger than it's every been, yes?
 
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FireDragon76

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You are 100% correct.

It's also sacrilegious to take Holy Communion in unrepentant mortal sin.

That's for Biden's priest to judge. His priest alone has that authority.
 
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Hans Blaster

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NARAL aren't just "a bunch of activists", they're one of the largest (if not the largest) pro-choice non-profit organizations in the country (with north of 4 million members)...they're a huge lobbying entity in elections, their endorsement or rejection can make or break a democratic candidate in a primary election.
There are over 300 M people in the US, 4 million is a small fraction. They are an activist group.
That'd be like trying to dismiss something the NRA said like "universal background checks are not supported by pro-2A advocates", by purely referring to them as "a bunch of activists" (as to imply that they're somehow "fringe") that would be dishonest ...no, they speak for (and represent) the views of large swaths of people, and everyone knows they have enough stroke to play "kingmaker" in a republican primary.
The NRA is *also* an activist group for guns rather than access to abortion.
You're shifting the goalposts here... if "safe legal and rare" is, by NARAL's current definition, "not supported by pro-choice advocates", holding that position (that was once Bill Clinton's slogan, and part of the DNC platform for over 2 decades) would be "anti-choice" by their definition, correct?
It's not the position of advocates (activists). So what. Show me where they attack the use of that phrase as "anti-woman" or anti-choice or what ever thing you claimed.
Their quote: "And anyone who uses that phrase is operating from the assumption that abortion is a bad thing.”

So, they see elective abortions as a "good thing" by that logic?
There is a third alternative: it is a neutral thing. I would have thought a reflexive centrist like yourself would find that nugget of neutrality.
Abortion is a bad thing,
I don't see it as such. It's a medical procedure.
in that, it means something very bad or very unfortunate happened.
Either someone needs one because they were raped or has health issues (bad thing)
Or, someone wants to get an elective one because
-- birth control failed (bad thing)
-- they were being irresponsible and not using birth control (bad thing)

We should be striving for each of those scenarios to be non-existent (or as rare as humanly possible), wouldn't you agree?
No rapes would be good, but I'm not sure how you would fix men to prevent all rapes. Failed pregnancies are clearly a continuing part of the complex development sequence required to grow a fully functional intelligent organism from only a few billion base pairs. There isn't much we can do about them. They will happen. Birth control will fail.
Another aspect of this that I haven't delved into yet...a lot of backlash happened when more and more pro-choice advocates started pushing to repeal the Hyde amendment.
I don't remember what the Hyde amendment is.
We went from "abortions should be a rare as possible, it's certainly not a good thing, but it's necessary to have a safe & legal avenue when it's needed" to "abortions aren't a bad thing at all" to "you should have to chip in to pay for them"

"Centerizing" the discussions on this topic is a good thing, as it explains why there was a sudden shift and desire for repealing 4 decades worth of legal precedent that 70% of people were willing to tolerate and leave be (even if they weren't crazy about it).
Do you know what TRAP laws are? That's what was going on for the last few decades.
Again to use another gun analogy.

Fair to assume you're not really a big "gun person", correct?
It's been nearly 40 years since I used one. Not particularly interested in them. (at least not the ones with sub-150 mm caliber).
If gun advocates started expanding their position from "I get to have my guns per DC vs. Heller scotus ruling, you'll just have to tolerate it" to

"Now, you have to say that guns are a good thing so that you don't stigmatize/shame gun owners"
and
"You also have to chip in extra taxes to help low-income people buy guns, because since it's a codified right, it should be accessible and affordable even if someone doesn't have much money, it doesn't matter that you don't agree with it"

If they started pushing for something like that, fair to assume your resolve in pushing for more gun control regulations would become stronger than it's every been, yes?
OK, I stopped reading. I'm not interested in the "gun analogies".
 
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ThatRobGuy

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There are over 300 M people in the US, 4 million is a small fraction. They are an activist group.
With a lot of political stroke.

AIPAC has only 3 million members, to put that in perspective, and that's an organization that basically dictates our middle east foreign policy and can kneecap a candidate with the stroke of a pen.
It's not the position of advocates (activists). So what. Show me where they attack the use of that phrase as "anti-woman" or anti-choice or what ever thing you claimed.

"This idea comes directly from the anti-choice movement"

The just society we want to see includes anyone being able to have an abortion—for any reason, at any time. It’s a safe, effective medical procedure, just as getting your blood drawn, having an IUD inserted, or getting a vaccine. Why would we ever want that to be rare?



Agreeing with anti-choice activists on even that single word "rare" hurts women and the cause of reproductive rights


There is a third alternative: it is a neutral thing. I would have thought a reflexive centrist like yourself would find that nugget of neutrality.
It's not neutral, in the same way I don't see things like Narcan or needle exchanges as neutral.

I see it as an unfortunate thing that's slightly less bad than the thing it's aiming to mitigate.

I use the that comparison because that's another thing where it's unfortunately sometimes needed to stave off a worse outcome, but that we as a society should be striving to make the need for it as rare as possible.

But happens when the "emergency last resort" thing ends up being viewed as an "everyday convenience" is that it makes people less careful and enables bad decision making.


While we shouldn't make "marginally better" the enemy of "perfect", the flip side of the coin is that we shouldn't be getting so complacent where we're content with just "marginally better than the worst possible outcome".

In order to be neutral, it should at the very least somewhere close to the middle of the spectrum between the best possible outcome and the worst possible outcome.

On the spectrum of
Responsible safe sex practices <-> Unsafe sex that ends unwanted parenthood

"Let's just go ahead and do it unprotected because the abortion option is on the table if something bad happens" is something I see as being much closer to the right hand side of that spectrum.

Per the NIH estimates (and Guttmacher, although, they may be relying on the NIH stats), fewer than half of people receiving an abortion between 2000-2014 were using contraception.



ScienceDirect actually delves into the data a little deeper:

They peg the number here:
Roughly 70% of unintended pregnancies are due to non-use of contraception.

The percentage of all married or cohabiting women who use no method despite wishing to avoid pregnancy and who are thus defined as having an unmet need for any family planning method was estimated in 2015 to be 9.7%


So even if we remove the fewer than 3% that take place due to rape/health issues. And remove the 9% who are dealing with an unmet need for a family planning method (whether it be lack of access, or lack of affordability)...

that still equates to a lot of people (who weren't raped, aren't having a health issue, and who could've been using birth control, but didn't) who've gotten complacent with the idea of using the procedure in place of contraception.

That type of irresponsibility should be as "rare" as possible, correct? At the very least, it shouldn't be incentivized by making it a "it's no big deal" type situation.

I don't remember what the Hyde amendment is.
Prohibits federal tax dollars from being used to pay for abortion services
OK, I stopped reading. I'm not interested in the "gun analogies".
But it's a valid analogy, because it shows the aspect of "reactive politics" playing out in the opposite direction.

There was a time when republicans were more "centrist" on guns (even Reagan was against people owning certain types of guns that he referred to as weapons of war that shouldn't be out on the streets). The left didn't really ramp up their efforts to crack down on guns until a noteworthy number of people on the right started suggesting that they should own the types of guns that are hotly disputed today.

The comparison has parallels. Sure, there were some on the left who weren't thrilled about guns, but when "well, I'm not thrilled about my neighbor having a shotgun and a 357 magnum...but I guess it's a reality I'll have to learn to live with" turned into "my neighbor's got a virtual armory in their closet of high power rifles with drum mags", that's when you really started seeing some aggressive pushes from the left for gun control.

Much like the left's aggressively-ramped, noticeably upticked pushes for things like assault weapons bans and more stringent guns laws didn't magically appear in a vacuum in the 90's (it was a reaction to something that was occurring in society). The right's big pushes for abortion restrictions that aggressively "went up a notch" in the 2010's didn't occur in a vacuum either.
 
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Hans Blaster

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With a lot of political stroke.
???
AIPAC has only 3 million members, to put that in perspective, and that's an organization that basically dictates our middle east foreign policy and can kneecap a candidate with the stroke of a pen.
O look. Another activist group.

"This idea comes directly from the anti-choice movement"

The just society we want to see includes anyone being able to have an abortion—for any reason, at any time. It’s a safe, effective medical procedure, just as getting your blood drawn, having an IUD inserted, or getting a vaccine. Why would we ever want that to be rare?



Agreeing with anti-choice activists on even that single word "rare" hurts women and the cause of reproductive rights
Again with the activists...
It's not neutral, in the same way I don't see things like Narcan or needle exchanges as neutral.

I see it as an unfortunate thing that's slightly less bad than the thing it's aiming to mitigate.
I don't, but so what. I'm not labeling you as anti-abortion or anti-choice or anti-woman because you state it that way.
I use the that comparison because that's another thing where it's unfortunately sometimes needed to stave off a worse outcome, but that we as a society should be striving to make the need for it as rare as possible.

But happens when the "emergency last resort" thing ends up being viewed as an "everyday convenience" is that it makes people less careful and enables bad decision making.
The only thing that could be classified as "everyday convenience" in the pre-Dobbs era would be relatively easy access to abortive medication. Medication that could not be obtained in the aisles of the local CVS, but required a doctor's visit and a perscription. It is "convenient" in the way that after a cold a lingering cough or sinus infection might require a doctor's visit and a prescribed z-pack.
While we shouldn't make "marginally better" the enemy of "perfect", the flip side of the coin is that we shouldn't be getting so complacent where we're content with just "marginally better than the worst possible outcome".

In order to be neutral, it should at the very least somewhere close to the middle of the spectrum between the best possible outcome and the worst possible outcome.

On the spectrum of
Responsible safe sex practices <-> Unsafe sex that ends unwanted parenthood

"Let's just go ahead and do it unprotected because the abortion option is on the table if something bad happens" is something I see as being much closer to the right hand side of that spectrum.

Per the NIH estimates (and Guttmacher, although, they may be relying on the NIH stats), fewer than half of people receiving an abortion between 2000-2014 were using contraception.



ScienceDirect actually delves into the data a little deeper:

They peg the number here:
Roughly 70% of unintended pregnancies are due to non-use of contraception.

The percentage of all married or cohabiting women who use no method despite wishing to avoid pregnancy and who are thus defined as having an unmet need for any family planning method was estimated in 2015 to be 9.7%


So even if we remove the fewer than 3% that take place due to rape/health issues. And remove the 9% who are dealing with an unmet need for a family planning method (whether it be lack of access, or lack of affordability)...

that still equates to a lot of people (who weren't raped, aren't having a health issue, and who could've been using birth control, but didn't) who've gotten complacent with the idea of using the procedure in place of contraception.

That type of irresponsibility should be as "rare" as possible, correct? At the very least, it shouldn't be incentivized by making it a "it's no big deal" type situation.
For those using abortion as a "backstop" to birth control, the medication type mentioned above is clearly the best option and that isn't even effective after your restrictive Swedish limit or any definition of viability. All of this seems like nothing more than a complaint about moral responsibility for not getting pregnant.
Prohibits federal tax dollars from being used to pay for abortion services
Oh that was the one.
But it's a valid analogy, because it shows the aspect of "reactive politics" playing out in the opposite direction.

There was a time when republicans were more "centrist" on guns (even Reagan was against people owning certain types of guns that he referred to as weapons of war that shouldn't be out on the streets). The left didn't really ramp up their efforts to crack down on guns until a noteworthy number of people on the right started suggesting that they should own the types of guns that are hotly disputed today.
And here I thought it was because the Black Panthers held demonstrations shouldering rifles...
The comparison has parallels. Sure, there were some on the left who weren't thrilled about guns, but when "well, I'm not thrilled about my neighbor having a shotgun and a 357 magnum...but I guess it's a reality I'll have to learn to live with" turned into "my neighbor's got a virtual armory in their closet of high power rifles with drum mags", that's when you really started seeing some aggressive pushes from the left for gun control.

Much like the left's aggressively-ramped, noticeably upticked pushes for things like assault weapons bans and more stringent guns laws didn't magically appear in a vacuum in the 90's (it was a reaction to something that was occurring in society). The right's big pushes for abortion restrictions that aggressively "went up a notch" in the 2010's didn't occur in a vacuum either.
 
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RileyG

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ThatRobGuy

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O look. Another activist group.
Again with the activists...

Not sure why you're being dismissive about "they just activists"...you do realize that large advocacy groups are the ones who actually dictate policy (in the form of endorsing/smearing candidates in election run-ups to make sure "the right candidate wins") in the US on many an issue, right?

You asked me "who's saying that it's anti-choice/anti-women?"

I just showed you who says that... the advocacy groups that play a major hand in deciding what the party's position on abortion is going to be with their targeted campaigns and their endorsements.

It's disingenuous to downplay the degree to which those groups are influential. They're not "nobodies", and it's not a group of 10 people with a bullhorn on a street corner. They're the ones who make sure that a democratic primary candidate doesn't cross the finish line if they're not sufficiently "pro choice enough" by their standards, in the same way the NRA can make sure that a particular republican primary candidate has no shot a winning if they're not "pro gun enough" by their standards.
 
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Hans Blaster

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Not sure why you're being dismissive about "they just activists"...you do realize that large advocacy groups are the ones who actually dictate policy (in the form of endorsing/smearing candidates in election run-ups to make sure "the right candidate wins") in the US on many an issue, right?
Persuading people is how activist/advocacy groups work. (They don't "dictate policy". SMH.)
You asked me "who's saying that it's anti-choice/anti-women?"
OK, you found some. And I don't care. Extremists have extreme positions and often aren't friendly to those in their direction, but in the middle. (You should know this. Your whole posting position is built around these kinds of things.) The issue was whether they were rejected for holding such a "legal but rare" position by the broad groups supporting abortion rights. (For example the Democratic Party.)
I just showed you who says that... the advocacy groups that play a major hand in deciding what the party's position on abortion is going to be with their targeted campaigns and their endorsements.

It's disingenuous to downplay the degree to which those groups are influential. They're not "nobodies", and it's not a group of 10 people with a bullhorn on a street corner.
That wasn't how I dismissed them.
They're the ones who make sure that a democratic primary candidate doesn't cross the finish line if they're not sufficiently "pro choice enough" by their standards, in the same way the NRA can make sure that a particular republican primary candidate has no shot a winning if they're not "pro gun enough" by their standards.
Good grief this is going nowhere. If you want a demonstration that a lot of "pro-choice" people *aren't* denigrating those who take the "legal but rare" position, just look at the way the VP is campaigning on this issue. She speaks of "restoring Roe", not some absolutist, extremist position from the NARAL playbook.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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Persuading people is how activist/advocacy groups work. (They don't "dictate policy". SMH.)
Sure they do...I'll explain below in the next bit...
OK, you found some. And I don't care. Extremists have extreme positions and often aren't friendly to those in their direction, but in the middle. (You should know this. Your whole posting position is built around these kinds of things.) The issue was whether they were rejected for holding such a "legal but rare" position by the broad groups supporting abortion rights. (For example the Democratic Party.)
"The middle" doesn't have any noteworthy PACs or lobbying forces.

They control policy on certain issues by either bolstering up or tamping down certain candidates (usually in a primary environment).

If there's two democrats (one who's moderate on abortion and another who's position aligns with their own), they buy ads, send out mailers and texts, etc... to make sure people see the one who agrees with them as the "true defender of women's rights", and label the other as a "sellout" or weak.

It's often known as the AIPAC playbook, but they all do it.

If you want to see how advocacy/activist groups control policy, this is how


If a candidate isn't voting the way they like on certain issues, they spend the money required to get them replaced with someone who will. (and then others get the message)


Good grief this is going nowhere. If you want a demonstration that a lot of "pro-choice" people *aren't* denigrating those who take the "legal but rare" position, just look at the way the VP is campaigning on this issue. She speaks of "restoring Roe", not some absolutist, extremist position from the NARAL playbook.
"How she's campaigning on the issue"

Like being the first President or Vice President in history to do a meet & greet and public appearance at an abortion clinic?


Harris still dodged, however, on providing details about what type of restrictions – if any – she supports around abortion. Instead, she pivoted: saying that she wants to “reinstate the protections of Roe,”

Why did she dodge & pivot? If a centrist position on this is "acceptable" to wide swaths of "regular" pro-choice advocates (or "extreme" pro-choice activists are just a fringe few that nobody is afraid of and don't have any stroke), she should've been able to directly answer the question and proclaim the centrist position on it without fear, correct?

The reality is, she's afraid to tick off NARAL for the same reasons republicans are afraid to tick off the NRA. Doesn't matter if either of those groups are "ideologically radical"... they're one phone/text/mailer campaign or TV commercial away from having their campaign getting torpedoed if they don't "kiss the ring"

They're one text/email blast campaign (which can reach millions of people for a relatively low cost) from having 10+ million people get a negative message about them.
 
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