"God doesn't owe you anything" is a destructive doctrine.

[BelieveItOarKnot]

There are scriptures which indicate that the devil rebelled and fell from grace. And additionally all angels are created holy by their definition, since they are intelligent beings set aside for the service of God (something is made holy when it is set aside for divine service).

There are holy messengers and there are wicked messengers. I don't see any instance in the Bible where a holy messenger turned into a wicked messenger. I also understand that may put a dent in some free will postures, but nevertheless there are a lot of fairy tales in the realm of Christianity that don't hold scriptural water.

Holy Satan is one of those fairy tales

Satan was made a perfect devil, in all his devilish ways. The word perfect doesn't have quite the same meaning when attached to "in thy ways."

 

[Jamdoc]

As stated prior I don't think there is such a place as away from the Lord

well that's what the scriptures say. Like I said, it does not contradict other things, it simply means we don't understand it.
There's a way where the presence in the lake of fire is different from the presence of the Lord that we will enjoy.
Think of it perhaps as Christ on the Cross cried out that He'd been forsaken. God is present, but He was forsaken in that moment because He bore all sin.
so it could be the same with the people who end up in the Lake of Fire. God is omnipresent, but God forsakes them.

 

[Jamdoc]

There are holy messengers and there are wicked messengers. I don't see any instance in the Bible where a holy messenger turned into a wicked messenger. I also understand that may put a dent in some free will postures, but nevertheless there are a lot of fairy tales in the realm of Christianity that don't hold scriptural water.

Holy Satan is one of those fairy tales

Satan was made a perfect devil, in all his devilish ways. The word perfect doesn't have quite the same meaning when attached to "in thy ways."

There's a few passages of scripture where God addresses a King, but then refers to them in ways that no human king could possibly be the true subject, one is the famous Lucifer passage in Isaiah 14 (which I believe is about Antichrist, a king possessed by Satan)
another is Ezekiel 28, which could also be in essence referring to a king possessed by Satan rather than just the flesh and blood king

11 Moreover the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,
12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord God; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

Surely the flesh and blood King of Tyre is not the true subject being addressed here, he was not in Eden... but Satan was.
God describes this Cherub as having been in Eden, as beautiful and anointed as the cherub that covered God's throne, and God describes him as perfect until he sinned.
So whether this was Satan, or some other spiritual being, God describes him as once being holy, but then sinning.

I believe it is referring to Satan, but that is a matter of interpretation.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

well that's what the scriptures say. Like I said, it does not contradict other things, it simply means we don't understand it.
There's a way where the presence in the lake of fire is different from the presence of the Lord that we will enjoy.
Think of it perhaps as Christ on the Cross cried out that He'd been forsaken. God is present, but He was forsaken in that moment because He bore all sin.
so it could be the same with the people who end up in the Lake of Fire. God is omnipresent, but God forsakes them.

A lot of presumptions and contradictions in play in the above. Bearing all sin for example. On what basis do you condemn people when that is the case?

You do realize that orthodoxy holds to the fact that they can not prove a single named person to be in hell now, or in the future. You're allowed to believe it will be so, but it is also heterodox to believe in Dominant Prevailing Grace for all people

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

a king possessed by Satan)
another is Ezekiel 28, which could also be in essence referring to a king possessed by Satan rather than just the flesh and blood king

There is no question Satan's habitation is in mankind, collectively.

I wouldn't term it all possession. There's still a person there, even in the most possessed.

And that's kind of the entire point of the exercise, is to get "believers" to see this fact for themselves, and for others

As to the citings you provided, yes they definitely address Satan in mankind. One of the most obvious revealings in scripture, and one we seem to quickly forget when it applies to having to deal with internal temptations ourselves

The instant any believer gets both parties on the table, their sights of things should change, theologically

They might even figure out that it's possible to love our neighbors and stay in the adverse judgment zone, simultaneously

 

[Jamdoc]

A lot of presumptions and contradictions in play in the above. Bearing all sin for example. On what basis do you condemn people when that is the case?

You do realize that orthodoxy holds to the fact that they can not prove a single named person to be in hell now, or in the future. You're allowed to believe it will be so, but it is also heterodox to believe in Dominant Prevailing Grace for all people

Scripture says He bore the sins of the world, like the gift of salvation is available to anyone who will accept it, but not everyone does. Some people just don't believe it can be true.
Others would rather God judge them on their own merit out of pride (Muslims for instance)
It is not a gift automatically forced on you, Jesus said that those who believe are not condemned but get eternal life, and those who do not believe are condemned already.
Jesus sacrifice COULD atone for everyone... if they'd believe. It's not as Calvinists say and that there's a limit.

 

[Jamdoc]

There is no question Satan's habitation is in mankind, collectively.

I wouldn't term it all possession. There's still a person there, even in the most possessed.

And that's kind of the entire point of the exercise, is to get "believers" to see this fact for themselves, and for others

As to the citings you provided, yes they definitely address Satan in mankind. One of the most obvious revealings in scripture, and one we seem to quickly forget when it applies to having to deal with internal temptations ourselves

The instant any believer gets both parties on the table, their sights of things should change, theologically

They might even figure out that it's possible to love our neighbors and stay in the adverse judgment zone, simultaneously

but you see, God addressing Satan here, God lamented for Satan, saying that Satan had once been good and pure and beautiful and Holy... but then iniquity found him.

So Satan was once Holy, and then fell to sin.
to me that shows that Holy Angels can fall to sin, and God can only lament for them and punish them, He will not atone for them and forgive them.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

God lamented for Satan, saying that Satan had once been good and pure and beautiful and Holy... but then iniquity found him.

Uh, no. Unless you're quoting some modified come lately

Jesus said the devil was a liar and a murderer from the beginning, John 8:44

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

Scripture says He bore the sins of the world, like the gift of salvation is available to anyone who will accept it, but not everyone does. Some people just don't believe it can be true.

It has everything to do with being blinded by the god of this world, 2 Cor. 4:4, Eph. 2:2, Mark 4:15

The only reason people believe is that God peels back the blinding force that is not the person

Others would rather God judge them on their own merit out of pride (Muslims for instance)

It is not a gift automatically forced on you, Jesus said that those who believe are not condemned but get eternal life, and those who do not believe are condemned already.
Jesus sacrifice COULD atone for everyone... if they'd believe. It's not as Calvinists say and that there's a limit.

I'm a little more liberal with my measurements of other people, according to that which is shown in scripture:

1 John 4:7
Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God.

I see no difference between Love and Jesus

 

[Jamdoc]

Uh, no. Unless you're quoting some modified come lately

Jesus said the devil was a liar and a murderer from the beginning, John 8:44

Depends on what is meant by "beginning" because God does lament over Satan, and the angels were present when the Earth was created (Job for instance when God is putting Job in his place), so there was some creation before Earth in which Angels existed prior.

So beginning when Jesus quotes it can mean beginning of this Earth, not necessarily that Satan was created evil already.

Remember when you have scriptures that seem to contradict each other, they don't, and one should not be thrown out in favor of the other, but rather both are true even if we do not understand how.

Proverbs 25:2. God does not reveal everything yet. Some things He conceals as part of His glory, being the only one to know everything.

We've come across a few of those in this thread in fact, no marriage after the resurrection vs children born on the new earth, Ezekiel 28 having God's lament for a once perfect in his ways Satan, to Jesus saying Satan was a liar from the beginning in John 8

and 2 Thessalonians 1:9 indicating that the damned are subjected to eternal destruction away from the presence of God vs Revelation 14's destruction in the presence of the holy angels and the lamb.

all these pairings can appear to contradict and many people will disregard one and take the other literally.
But I hold that both are true in each case, we just don't know how.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

Depends on what is meant by "beginning" because God does lament over Satan, and the angels were present when the Earth was created (Job for instance when God is putting Job in his place), so there was some creation before Earth in which Angels existed prior.

Point will remain, no mentions of "Holy" Satan anywhere in scriptures and Jesus' statement of Satan being a liar and murderer from the beginning, wherever you care to mark his beginning.

God made the devil, perfect in his devil ways. I wouldn't let the term perfect bypass in his ways

How we read things is going to be different. I see Job and the tempter, because of Mark 4:15

Most who can not see the tempter working within Job can not because of the still present reality of Mark 4:15. These only see Job or only see Adam etc etc.

Scripture doesn't see any of us that way

 

[Jamdoc]

Point will remain, no mentions of "Holy" Satan anywhere in scriptures and Jesus' statement of Satan being a liar and murderer from the beginning, wherever you care to mark his beginning.

God made the devil, perfect in his devil ways. I wouldn't let the term perfect bypass in his ways

How we read things is going to be different. I see Job and the tempter, because of Mark 4:15

Most who can not see the tempter working within Job can not because of the still present reality of Mark 4:15. These only see Job or only see Adam etc etc.

Scripture doesn't see any of us that way

Ezekiel 28

15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Perfect in his ways until sin was found in him says that for a time after his beginning he was sinless.
I think Jesus' reference to the beginning was the beginning of Earth.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

Perfect in his ways

Yes, as stated prior, a perfect DEVIL. I don't see anywhere where Satan was sinless. You?

 

[Jamdoc]

Yes, as stated prior, a perfect DEVIL. I don't see anywhere where Satan was sinless. You?

"until iniquity was found in thee" iniquity is sin.
God didn't intentionally create an evil being to be evil. God created a being that had no sin until he chose to sin on his own.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

"until iniquity was found in thee" iniquity is sin.
God didn't intentionally create an evil being to be evil. God created a being that had no sin until he chose to sin on his own.

God created everything including all powers. Evil is a power, Hab. 2:9

No one has a choice of whether or not to have an evil thought. Everyone has them, no exceptions: Mark 7:21-23

 

[Jamdoc]

God created everything including all powers. Evil is a power, Hab. 2:9

No one has a choice of whether or not to have an evil thought. Everyone has them, no exceptions: Mark 7:21-23

God knows a being will choose evil before He creates it, but that does not absolve that being of the choice to choose evil. God doesn't create them evil, they choose evil.
If God chose to make them evil then God would be responsible and nobody would deserve punishment because they weren't even acting on their own will.
I guess that's the point when you're trying to argue for the unbiblical concept of Universalism
But that's not what the bible teaches.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

God knows a being will choose evil before He creates it

Well, circular logic above for sure.

Here is our collective state of being, per Paul

Romans 11:32

For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

God uses disobedience to force us all into coming to His Mercy Seat

With regards to "universalism" every believer is a universalist of some fashion or another. You for example probably believe that devils are universally condemned and damned to the LoF, as do I.

I also believe sins were universally forgiven for mankind. I don't know where you are at on this subject, but the scriptures are clear enough:

2 Cor. 5:19
that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

Unfortunately most seem to have missed the message on this count, and replaced it with extortion of our neighbors

 

[Jamdoc]

Well, circular logic above for sure.

Here is our collective state of being, per Paul

Romans 11:32

For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

God uses disobedience to force us all into coming to His Mercy Seat

With regards to "universalism" every believer is a universalist of some fashion or another. You for example probably believe that devils are universally condemned and damned to the LoF, as do I.

I also believe sins were universally forgiven for mankind. I don't know where you are at on this subject, but the scriptures are clear enough:

2 Cor. 5:19
that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

Unfortunately most seem to have missed the message on this count, and replaced it with extortion of our neighbors

Isolated verses shouldn't be used to make doctrines. Not when Revelation 14 has eternal torment without rest and Revelation 20 has people cast into the Lake of Fire as well.

Who gets saved is a bit of a nuanced thing in itself because we have again seemingly contradictory statements of both an open invitation and simultaneously an election where those saved are given to Jesus by God the Father and so God chooses individuals.

and about all that can really reconcile these concepts is that God knows who will Choose Christ so He calls to them first., so they're elected because they will choose.. Both ideas have to be simultaneously true.

and similarly both concepts of Jesus died for the sins of the world universally, and people going to eternal conscious torment both have to be true. The gift has to be available universally, but if a person refuses a gift God is not going to force it on them, if they choose to stand on their own merit God isn't going to force them to stand on His instead.
They'll just find out their merit wasn't enough.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

Isolated verses shouldn't be used to make doctrines.

CIting context to eliminate scriptures doesn't work either

Not when Revelation 14 has eternal torment without rest and Revelation 20 has people cast into the Lake of Fire as well.

Uh, we've covered this prior. There is not a single named person stated anywhere in the Bible to be in hell/the LoF now or in the future. Orthodoxy has held this position from the beginning, some even reluctantly making room for Grace and Mercy in Christ for all people.

We might think that a single named person could have easily been used to example this so called scriptural fact.

Who gets saved is a bit of a nuanced thing in itself because we have again seemingly contradictory statements of both an open invitation and simultaneously an election where those saved are given to Jesus by God the Father and so God chooses individuals.

OF course it's nuanced. There are over 50 statements in the scriptures showing how people are saved, from doing as little as providing a cold cup of water to the infamous 4 stepper plan

The reality is we all see only in part, and that is courtesy of the reality of Mark 4:15

and similarly both concepts of Jesus died for the sins of the world universally, and people going to eternal conscious torment both have to be true.

Uh, no, both positions are not compatible. IF sins are not counted against people the basis for eradication is eliminated. However it can and does still stand for the devil and his messengers who also coincidentally operate within mankind, as Jesus clearly showed.

They'll just find out their merit wasn't enough.

The merit of no person will stand justified before God, period.

We only exist because of God's Eternal Mercy in Christ

 

[Jamdoc]

CIting context to eliminate scriptures doesn't work either

Uh, we've covered this prior. There is not a single named person stated anywhere in the Bible to be in hell/the LoF now or in the future. Orthodoxy has held this position from the beginning, some even reluctantly making room for Grace and Mercy in Christ for all people.

We might think that a single named person could have easily been used to example this so called scriptural fact.

Revelation 14

9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

I wasn't aware that this wasn't biblical fact. Is God in the habit of making petty empty threats knowing full well He isn't going to deliver on them?

Revelation 20

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

That's biblical fact too.
Maybe no individuals are identified by name because it's such a broad swathe of people. The Lord said wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many are they that go therein.

In Jesus' parable in Luke 16, the rich man is not named, but Lazarus is named. Maybe it's because in hell it doesn't matter who you were or what your name was, but in heaven and the new earth, everyone has a name.

That is another promise, something God has promised, we all get new names.

OF course it's nuanced. There are over 50 statements in the scriptures showing how people are saved, from doing as little as providing a cold cup of water to the infamous 4 stepper plan

The nuance isn't how. That much is clear, it's faith in Christ alone. That's the single thing in every passage regarding how to get saved. the Least common denominator. If God requires more than that then statements that have only faith such as John 3:16 and Acts 16:31, which have only faith in Christ as a requirement would be lies, and Jesus Himself would be a liar. So because Jesus promised that that's what it took, then that's what it takes and that is all that it takes. The catch is the more you try to do for your own salvation the less you're trusting in Christ's promise.

the nuance is who, are they chosen/predestined or is it an open invitation, because there are statements indicating both. We both have a choice, to believe or not, but also, whether we would believe or not was already known before the creation of the world and God calls to us first and we can't believe until He does.

The reality is we all see only in part, and that is courtesy of the reality of Mark 4:15


Uh, no, both positions are not compatible. IF sins are not counted against people the basis for eradication is eliminated. However it can and does still stand for the devil and his messengers who also coincidentally operate within mankind, as Jesus clearly showed.

Sins are counted if you die in your sins.
have to seek forgiveness prior to that. Hebrews 9:27

The merit of no person will stand justified before God, period.

We only exist because of God's Eternal Mercy in Christ

This much is true, but some people would rather seek to stand on their own merit, I've encountered such, it's very common among Muslims particularly since it's ingrained into them that no one can atone for the sins of another, and that it's unjust for anyone to try.
it's one of Satan's clever little gambits in how to create a religion that essentially prevents salvation while having just enough of the truth to be believable.