Is it Inspired or is it a tradition without inspiration?

[Xeno.of.athens]

John 7:53-8:11 contains the story of the woman taken in adultery. Some bibles present it within, [[ and ]] others show it in italics and a few leave it out or relegate it to a footnote. Is it inspired scripture or is it something else?

John 7:53-8:11 NET [[And each one departed to his own house. (8:1) But Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. (2) Early in the morning he came to the temple courts again. All the people came to him, and he sat down and began to teach them. (3) The experts in the law and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught committing adultery. They made her stand in front of them (4) and said to Jesus, “Teacher, this woman was caught in the very act of adultery. (5) In the law Moses commanded us to stone to death such women. What then do you say?” (6) (Now they were asking this in an attempt to trap him, so that they could bring charges against him.) Jesus bent down and wrote on the ground with his finger. (7) When they persisted in asking him, he stood up straight and replied, “Whoever among you is guiltless may be the first to throw a stone at her.” (8) Then he bent over again and wrote on the ground. (9) Now when they heard this, they began to drift away one at a time, starting with the older ones, until Jesus was left alone with the woman standing before him. (10) Jesus stood up straight and said to her, “Woman, where are they? Did no one condemn you?” (11) She replied, “No one, Lord.” And Jesus said, “I do not condemn you either. Go, and from now on do not sin any more.”]]

 

[Reluctant Theologian]

John 7:53-8:11 contains the story of the woman taken in adultery. Some bibles present it within, [[ and ]] others show it in italics and a few leave it out or relegate it to a footnote. Is it inspired scripture or is it something else?

John 7:53-8:11 NET [[And each one departed to his own house. (8:1) But Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. (2) Early in the morning he came to the temple courts again. All the people came to him, and he sat down and began to teach them. (3) The experts in the law and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught committing adultery. They made her stand in front of them (4) and said to Jesus, “Teacher, this woman was caught in the very act of adultery. (5) In the law Moses commanded us to stone to death such women. What then do you say?” (6) (Now they were asking this in an attempt to trap him, so that they could bring charges against him.) Jesus bent down and wrote on the ground with his finger. (7) When they persisted in asking him, he stood up straight and replied, “Whoever among you is guiltless may be the first to throw a stone at her.” (8) Then he bent over again and wrote on the ground. (9) Now when they heard this, they began to drift away one at a time, starting with the older ones, until Jesus was left alone with the woman standing before him. (10) Jesus stood up straight and said to her, “Woman, where are they? Did no one condemn you?” (11) She replied, “No one, Lord.” And Jesus said, “I do not condemn you either. Go, and from now on do not sin any more.”]]

My take: the section is in all likelihood not written by John but inserted later by some scribe; but nevertheless I think it is an account of a true event (possibly passed on verbally and then recorded); reliable/true enough for me to pay attention to it.

Is it God/Faith-inspired/breathed? Probably .. but personally I don't believe that the NT writings collectively are defined by the NT writings themselves as infallible 'scripture' (Greek: Graphe). In Revelation a very specific claim of direct revelation from Yeshua is found, but the other NT books/letters do not. Luke appeals to thorough analysis/preparation for his writings; Paul sometimes refers to direct instructions from God and his general apostleship/commissioning. All these writings (= Graphe) are Faith/God-inspired, but in my opinion not necessarily infallible as a collective.

The collective however does present Truth and Gods plan for salvation. The sermon I listen to on a Sabbath day or on a Sunday hopefully also is God/Faith-inspired, yet net necessarily infallible.

I realise believers have very different views on this; and my intention is not to start a polemic, but since you asked the question I just share my view.

 

[Wolseley]

The Magesterium of the Church is what decides what is inspired Scripture and what is not; not Scripture itself. The passage in John may not have been written by John, but it is still inspired, infallible Scripture, originated by the Holy Spirit through whomever it was that wrote it down.

And Tradition is likewise inspired and infallible; just because something is not in the Bible doesn't mean it is not the Word of God. Both Scripture and Tradition carry equal weight, and both are determined by the Holy Spirit, God Himself, working though the Magesterium of the Church. We must adhere to both, because when we cut one or the other out, or cut out sections of either that we don't happen to like, we do so at our peril.

 

[Servus]

The Magesterium of the Church is what decides what is inspired Scripture and what is not; not Scripture itself. The passage in John may not have been written by John, but it is still inspired, infallible Scripture, originated by the Holy Spirit through whomever it was that wrote it down.

And Tradition is likewise inspired and infallible; just because something is not in the Bible doesn't mean it is not the Word of God. Both Scripture and Tradition carry equal weight, and both are determined by the Holy Spirit, God Himself, working though the Magesterium of the Church. We must adhere to both, because when we cut one or the other out, or cut out sections of either that we don't happen to like, we do so at our peril.

Why would Peter, John, Matthew, Luke, James, and Paul leave out something that's so important, not having it is to our peril?

 

[Joseph G]

John 7:53-8:11 contains the story of the woman taken in adultery. Some bibles present it within, [[ and ]] others show it in italics and a few leave it out or relegate it to a footnote. Is it inspired scripture or is it something else?

John 7:53-8:11 NET [[And each one departed to his own house. (8:1) But Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. (2) Early in the morning he came to the temple courts again. All the people came to him, and he sat down and began to teach them. (3) The experts in the law and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught committing adultery. They made her stand in front of them (4) and said to Jesus, “Teacher, this woman was caught in the very act of adultery. (5) In the law Moses commanded us to stone to death such women. What then do you say?” (6) (Now they were asking this in an attempt to trap him, so that they could bring charges against him.) Jesus bent down and wrote on the ground with his finger. (7) When they persisted in asking him, he stood up straight and replied, “Whoever among you is guiltless may be the first to throw a stone at her.” (8) Then he bent over again and wrote on the ground. (9) Now when they heard this, they began to drift away one at a time, starting with the older ones, until Jesus was left alone with the woman standing before him. (10) Jesus stood up straight and said to her, “Woman, where are they? Did no one condemn you?” (11) She replied, “No one, Lord.” And Jesus said, “I do not condemn you either. Go, and from now on do not sin any more.”]]

Endeavor to obey what Jesus commands of you in Holy Scripture, and you will find in short order whether it and the rest of His Word is inspired.

Wrestling perpetually with theological arguments and burying our noses in the opinions of Bible scholars provides no nourishment.

Nothing replaces seeking a RELATIONSHIP with Him above all, and His Spirit alone will lead you into all Truth, as He promises.

God bless us all!

John 14:15-21 NIV

"“If you love me, keep my commands. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.

Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”

biblegateway.com

 

[Wolseley]

Why would Peter, John, Matthew, Luke, James, and Paul leave out something that's so important, not having it is to our peril?

I'm not quite sure what you're asking, but I repeat: not all the things that we need are found in Holy Scripture. We also need what is contained in Apostolic Tradition, and what is contained in both was determined by the Church.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

John 7:53-8:11 contains the story of the woman taken in adultery. Some bibles present it within, [[ and ]] others show it in italics and a few leave it out or relegate it to a footnote. Is it inspired scripture or is it something else?

John 7:53-8:11 NET [[And each one departed to his own house. (8:1) But Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. (2) Early in the morning he came to the temple courts again. All the people came to him, and he sat down and began to teach them. (3) The experts in the law and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught committing adultery. They made her stand in front of them (4) and said to Jesus, “Teacher, this woman was caught in the very act of adultery. (5) In the law Moses commanded us to stone to death such women. What then do you say?” (6) (Now they were asking this in an attempt to trap him, so that they could bring charges against him.) Jesus bent down and wrote on the ground with his finger. (7) When they persisted in asking him, he stood up straight and replied, “Whoever among you is guiltless may be the first to throw a stone at her.” (8) Then he bent over again and wrote on the ground. (9) Now when they heard this, they began to drift away one at a time, starting with the older ones, until Jesus was left alone with the woman standing before him. (10) Jesus stood up straight and said to her, “Woman, where are they? Did no one condemn you?” (11) She replied, “No one, Lord.” And Jesus said, “I do not condemn you either. Go, and from now on do not sin any more.”]]

Following up from what @Reluctant Theologian has already said above in post #2, I too think this famous piece of Scripture is likely pseudepigraphal.

But even if it is, it seems to align ideally with the character of Christ in what we find representatively written in the rest of the Gospels, and what's more, if folks are put out by the possibility that this bit of narrative might not be literally true, Luke gives us a separate but similar account of another woman who was also shown great mercy and love by Jesus, just at the moment when she felt she needed it most. See Luke 7:36-50.

If people want another example of Jesus' compassion for women, they can go to Luke. They can also read everything offered in the Gospels about Mary Magdalene as well. So, whether the little extra story we have in John is truly authentic, or inspired, or not, it's not as if we rely on it for a particular psychological reassurance about God's love for His daughters, or for the plight of women everywhere and throughout all time.

 

[Always in His Presence]

John 7:53-8:11 contains the story of the woman taken in adultery. Some bibles present it within, [[ and ]] others show it in italics and a few leave it out or relegate it to a footnote. Is it inspired scripture or is it something else?

It is inspired. The something else is that the verses are missing in some of the older codex's - not because they were not written, but because they were physically not there.

 

[ARBITER01]

John 7:53-8:11 contains the story of the woman taken in adultery. Some bibles present it within, [[ and ]] others show it in italics and a few leave it out or relegate it to a footnote. Is it inspired scripture or is it something else?

I forget how many different places in the gospel manuscripts that the verse was inserted to try and make it fit. It was a lot.

For me, I don't think it was an actual account that John originally wrote about. It could be a testimony of Jesus from someone that was overlooked by the gospel writers and they inserted it later, or it could be just something that someone wanted put in the gospels because it sounded good.

I don't currently see myself placing it in my bible I'm writing when I get to the gospel accounts.

 

[ViaCrucis]

The Christian Church receives it as Scripture, it is therefore Scripture.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[The Liturgist]

John 7:53-8:11 contains the story of the woman taken in adultery. Some bibles present it within, [[ and ]] others show it in italics and a few leave it out or relegate it to a footnote. Is it inspired scripture or is it something else?

John 7:53-8:11 NET [[And each one departed to his own house. (8:1) But Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. (2) Early in the morning he came to the temple courts again. All the people came to him, and he sat down and began to teach them. (3) The experts in the law and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught committing adultery. They made her stand in front of them (4) and said to Jesus, “Teacher, this woman was caught in the very act of adultery. (5) In the law Moses commanded us to stone to death such women. What then do you say?” (6) (Now they were asking this in an attempt to trap him, so that they could bring charges against him.) Jesus bent down and wrote on the ground with his finger. (7) When they persisted in asking him, he stood up straight and replied, “Whoever among you is guiltless may be the first to throw a stone at her.” (8) Then he bent over again and wrote on the ground. (9) Now when they heard this, they began to drift away one at a time, starting with the older ones, until Jesus was left alone with the woman standing before him. (10) Jesus stood up straight and said to her, “Woman, where are they? Did no one condemn you?” (11) She replied, “No one, Lord.” And Jesus said, “I do not condemn you either. Go, and from now on do not sin any more.”]]

Yes it is inspired, even if it is an interpolation, who cares?

I mean, I really want to know what anyone thinks would be gained by contradicting the liturgical tradition of the Church and deleting this pericope, seriously.

 

[BobRyan]

John 7:53-8:11 contains the story of the woman taken in adultery. Some bibles present it within, [[ and ]] others show it in italics and a few leave it out or relegate it to a footnote. Is it inspired scripture or is it something else?

John 7:53-8:11 NET [[And each one departed to his own house. (8:1) But Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. (2) Early in the morning he came to the temple courts again. All the people came to him, and he sat down and began to teach them. (3) The experts in the law and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught committing adultery. They made her stand in front of them (4) and said to Jesus, “Teacher, this woman was caught in the very act of adultery. (5) In the law Moses commanded us to stone to death such women. What then do you say?” (6) (Now they were asking this in an attempt to trap him, so that they could bring charges against him.) Jesus bent down and wrote on the ground with his finger. (7) When they persisted in asking him, he stood up straight and replied, “Whoever among you is guiltless may be the first to throw a stone at her.” (8) Then he bent over again and wrote on the ground. (9) Now when they heard this, they began to drift away one at a time, starting with the older ones, until Jesus was left alone with the woman standing before him. (10) Jesus stood up straight and said to her, “Woman, where are they? Did no one condemn you?” (11) She replied, “No one, Lord.” And Jesus said, “I do not condemn you either. Go, and from now on do not sin any more.”]]

It is inspired scripture. The reason some translations show John 8:1-11 as optional is that some older (trashed, discarded?) manuscripts do not contain it. But the fact that those few older manuscripts that don't have it - were discarded - indicates that the contemporaries with those manuscripts regarded them as flawed -- rather than to be promoted for all to accept as the standard.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

It is inspired scripture. The reason some translations show John 8:1-11 as optional is that some older (trashed, discarded?) manuscripts do not contain it. But the fact that those few older manuscripts that don't have it - were discarded - indicates that the contemporaries with those manuscripts regarded them as flawed -- rather than to be promoted for all to accept as the standard.

I have seen a similar explanation of why we should only use the textus receptus for our translations. But I cannot agree with that hypothesis. The very old manuscripts had been carefully preserved for many centuries, and that one was found in a waste basket is an indication only that that particular manuscript was not seen as having value by the person who put it in the waste basket. But there are many more than one manuscript that contains the text that lacks John 7 verse 53 through 8 verse 11.

 

[BobRyan]

It is inspired scripture. The reason some translations show John 8:1-11 as optional is that some older (trashed, discarded?) manuscripts do not contain it. But the fact that those few older manuscripts that don't have it - were discarded - indicates that the contemporaries with those manuscripts regarded them as flawed -- rather than to be promoted for all to accept as the standard.

I have seen a similar explanation of why we should only use the textus receptus for our translations.

In fact it is a caution - so that we think-twice before pulling manuscripts found in a trash can - and using them to negate more recent manuscripts.

But I cannot agree with that hypothesis. The very old manuscripts had been carefully preserved for many centuries,

"very carefully preserved" is not euphemism for "found in a trash can, never promoted".

and that one was found in a waste basket is an indication only that that particular manuscript was not seen as having value by the person who put it in the waste basket.

Indeed that is true.

And having lines of crossed out text, corrections etc in a discarded manuscript , not used by its contemporary writers/scholars/printers etc is generally "a clue" that the version found was not the sharpest knife in the drawer at the time.

But there are many more than one manuscript that contains the text that lacks John 7 verse 53 through 8 verse 11.

At what date? Before the one in the can?

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

In fact it is a caution - so that we think-twice before pulling manuscripts found in a trash can - and using them to negate more recent manuscripts.

"very carefully preserved" is not euphemism for "found in a trash can, never promoted".

Indeed that is true.

And having lines of crossed out text, corrections etc in a discarded manuscript , not used by its contemporary writers/scholars/printers etc is generally "a clue" that the version found was not the sharpest knife in the drawer at the time.

At what date? Before the one in the can?

The manuscript that you've been referring to is called codex sainiticus but there is also codex vaticanus and it is as old and was not found in a waste basket and is preserved in the Vatican library to this day it has never been discarded and never regarded as rubbish, there are also numerous papyrus fragments and manuscripts that have the same text characteristics.

 

[Dan Perez]

The manuscript that you've been referring to is called codex sainiticus but there is also codex vaticanus and it is as old and was not found in a waste basket and is preserved in the Vatican library to this day it has never been discarded and never regarded as rubbish, there are also numerous papyrus fragments and manuscripts that have the same text characteristics.

AND translators do not see best translation and ITALICIZED it to help improve its readability and Clarity ?

dan p

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

AND translators do not see best translation and ITALICIZED it to help improve its readability and Clarity ?

dan p

The first part makes no sense.

Translators of some English bibles use italics to indicate words that they added to smooth the English grammar and make it comprehendible for readers.

 

[Fervent]

Does it really have to be either/or? The options are not simply an official "magisterium" or an inerrant "scripture", we can accept tradition as a legitimate authority without putting the opinions of fallible human beings between ourselves and God. Both are secondary authorities through which God reveals His will, and the false dichotomy comes about from them being set against each other by an understanding of the two that doesn't reflect history. Tradition is the life of the Holy Spirit in the church, but the Holy Spirit doesn't just operate among the clergy.

 

[Love Fountain]

John 7:53-8:11 contains the story of the woman taken in adultery. Some bibles present it within, [[ and ]] others show it in italics and a few leave it out or relegate it to a footnote. Is it inspired scripture or is it something else?

John 7:53-8:11 NET [[And each one departed to his own house. (8:1) But Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. (2) Early in the morning he came to the temple courts again. All the people came to him, and he sat down and began to teach them. (3) The experts in the law and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught committing adultery. They made her stand in front of them (4) and said to Jesus, “Teacher, this woman was caught in the very act of adultery. (5) In the law Moses commanded us to stone to death such women. What then do you say?” (6) (Now they were asking this in an attempt to trap him, so that they could bring charges against him.) Jesus bent down and wrote on the ground with his finger. (7) When they persisted in asking him, he stood up straight and replied, “Whoever among you is guiltless may be the first to throw a stone at her.” (8) Then he bent over again and wrote on the ground. (9) Now when they heard this, they began to drift away one at a time, starting with the older ones, until Jesus was left alone with the woman standing before him. (10) Jesus stood up straight and said to her, “Woman, where are they? Did no one condemn you?” (11) She replied, “No one, Lord.” And Jesus said, “I do not condemn you either. Go, and from now on do not sin any more.”]]

Hello, the following corresponding subject outlines show the texts subjects in symmetrical complete thoughts and reveal that any text that would leave John 7:53-8:11 out or cast doubt as to it's authenticity is in error and/or corrupt.

Here's more corresponding subject outline structures that show the harmony of the text and no one could just randomly place John 7:53-8:11 into the text because it's so interwoven in precision that no man could ever do such a thing with such skill and wisdom. Anyone who tells you that John 7:53-8:11 is not original to the biblical text is ignorant or outright clueless of the literary styles of the biblical texts that help lock in that which the spirit of God has inspired!

Hope the above helps see the subjects in certain chapters and verses of the biblical text, texts that the Net bible and all other Bibles who remove or cast doubt about the authenticity of John 7:53-8:11 are in error and should correct their bad teachings!

Blessings,
Love Fountain