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Port Workers are Set to Strike Tuesday 10/1

iluvatar5150

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That is not what these workers are asking. The workers are asking they pay for inflation only to themselves...

Yeah, that's typically how employment negotiations work. People negotiate for more money in their own pocket.


Who voted for billions to go to illegal immigrants? Nobody! But we certainly had people supporting it all the way. Let them pay.
I try not to be much of an on-topic nazi, but what are you going on about? This thread isn't about immigration.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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No concern that the port owners are willing to cripple the economy in order to keep more of their profits?
It would seem that the port owners have been willing to "reach across the table" further than the people demanding the higher salaries.

They've offered a 40% increase over a period of 6 years...when that wasn't well received, they upped it to 50% and still got shot down.

Meanwhile, the ILA president is demanding that salaries be basically doubled, and using rhetoric like "we'll crush them".

I don't think the port owners are the bad faith actors here. They've been willing to make concessions thus far.

In terms of "who's willing to cripple the economy". Is it the side who's making offers, and have been shown to be willing to make adjustments to those offers? Or the side that's demanding "all or nothing" and using "crush them" rhetoric?


Let's take the "union vs. non-union" aspect off the table, because that tends to make people (on either side of the debate) want to look at it through a certain ideological lens...

If I stormed into my boss's office tomorrow and said "I demand a 74% raise!" (keeping in mind, I'm already in upper-median salary range for the type of work I do)

If the Boss says "hmmm, I can do 40%" (which is already more than meeting me half way)

And I said "screw your 40% offer, that's insulting!!!"

And he comes back with "Okay, we'd like to keep you, what if I went 50%?"

And I said "No way, you either give me the 74% I'm asking for, or I'm going to get everyone else to come with me and walk out of this place, we're going to crush your business!"


Which party at that hypothetical negotiation is being more hostile and unreasonable?


I think it's a critical oversight to never think that "labor" can be the bad guys or the unreasonable party in a certain situation...which is odd, because a lot people (when the context of the conversation is different) are often willing to readily admit that many of their co-workers (fellow members of "labor") are either lazy, backstabbing, stupid, overpaid, or inadequate... yet, you make it a "labor vs. management discussion", then all of the sudden, it's only "management" that can be "the bad guys".
 
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ralliann

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Yeah, that's typically how employment negotiations work. People negotiate for more money in their own pocket.



I try not to be much of an on-topic nazi, but what are you going on about? This thread isn't about immigration.
A large portion of the inflation cause.
 
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iluvatar5150

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It would seem that the port owners have been willing to "reach across the table" further than the people demanding the higher salaries.

They've offered a 40% increase over a period of 6 years...when that wasn't well received, they upped it to 50% and still got shot down.

Remember, a 25% increase today just gets them to the purchasing power they had in 2018. They didn't have any power to negotiate higher wages during all of the covid inflation, while all of the businesses upstream of them did. The shipping companies in particular made out like bandits when container rates skyrocketed. 25% on top of that is around 4%/yr, which is okay, but nothing spectacular.


Let's take the "union vs. non-union" aspect off the table, because that tends to make people (on either side of the debate) want to look at it through a certain ideological lens...

If I stormed into my boss's office tomorrow and said "I demand a 74% raise!" (keeping in mind, I'm already in upper-median salary range for the type of work I do)

If the Boss says "hmmm, I can do 40%" (which is already more than meeting me half way)

And I said "screw your 40% offer, that's insulting!!!"

And he comes back with "Okay, we'd like to keep you, what if I went 50%?"

And I said "No way, you either give me the 74% I'm asking for, or I'm going to get everyone else to come with me and walk out of this place, we're going to crush your business!"


Which party at that hypothetical negotiation is being more hostile and unreasonable?

It depends on what the baseline pay is. If the boss is already paying above-market wages, then the employee is unreasonable. If the boss is well-under and his offer gets him up to a point of mediocrity, then he's merely putting on an air of civility to give cover to the fact that he's been dragging his feet for years.

I think it's a critical oversight to never think that "labor" can be the bad guys or the unreasonable party in a certain situation...which is odd, because a lot people (when the context of the conversation is different) are often willing to readily admit that many of their co-workers (fellow members of "labor") are either lazy, backstabbing, stupid, overpaid, or inadequate... yet, you make it a "labor vs. management discussion", then all of the sudden, it's only "management" that can be "the bad guys".

I know labor can be a problem. In poking around for stats for the argument (because I do love arguing with data), I found a report describing how the NYC longshoreman union had something like 1/3 of the workers making over $200k/yr, which isn't necessarily horrible in NYC if a bunch of old-timers are regularly putting in 100 hr/wks, but the report showed many of them making well over that and concluded that the "overwhelming majority" of those were low-show patronage jobs given to individuals who were "white males" with connections to either union bosses or organized crime.


I'm a bit salty on this point, because I've spent the last several years working for firms that have been fairly profitable, and have loaded on layer after layer of expensive, yet incompetent management with TC packages multiple times that of the rank-and-file, while crying poverty and handing out 3% COLA raises to the peons doing the actual work. As I've started paying more attention to other industries, I'm skeptical that most are any better. I'm glad to see employees finally stick it to their wealthy, tight-fisted employers.

A large portion of the inflation cause.
Immigration is a large cause of inflation? No, it isn't. You're just making things up.
 
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iluvatar5150

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ThatRobGuy

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It depends on what the baseline pay is. If the boss is already paying above-market wages, then the employee is unreasonable. If the boss is well-under and his offer gets him up to a point of mediocrity, then he's merely putting on an air of civility to give cover to the fact that he's been dragging his feet for years.

It would seem as if they were already making above-market wages (if we define "market" as the collection of union/nonunion jobs for that specific vocation, and other similar ones). (which typically range from $54-$68k). The guys who have been there 3+ years are already making more than that.

They're also citing the fact that they earn less than their peers on the West Coast...welcome to the club. I earn significantly less than my peers living in San Diego as well. There's different economic conditions there.


Monday, USMX said its latest offer would boost dockworkers' wages by nearly 50%, triple employer contributions to employee retirement plans and enhance health care coverage.

Again, I think that's a pretty decent offer considering the fact that most are already in the upper quartile for the type of work they do.

In a good faith negotiation, it's certainly not the type of offer that should be met with "screw that, no way we're taking that, we'll crush you" (especially not coming from a labor leader who, he and his son who leads a different affiliate chapter, are both pulling down close to a million per year)


I am curious as to how the leader (and his son/right-hand-man) of a 25,000 member organization is pulling down a salary that's quadruple that of the president of the teamsters and the president of the UAW.

Point of reference:
Sean O'Brien makes $250,000 (leading an organization of over a million members)
Shawn Fain makes $189,000 (leading an organization of 400,000 members)

Daggett made $728,694 in 2023 as ILA president and an additional $173,040 as president emeritus of the mechanics local chapter at Port Newark in New Jersey

Daggett's son, Dennis Daggett, heads the New Jersey local his father once led and is now ILA executive vice president, roles that netted him total income of more than $700,000 in 2023.


ILA seems to be one of the rare outliers where the "upper management" within their organization makes more than the upper management of the organizations they're trying to negotiate against. That doesn't always convey the "best look".

1727962992873.png


When Shawn Fain (making $189k) sits down at the table to negotiate against a bunch of Ford or GM executives all making well over 7 figures, the "Corporate greed" angle is a little more sympathetic.


Daggett (Making a total of 900k per year) and his Son (making 700k) sitting down at the table with guys who make less than them to call them out for "being greedy" doesn't quite resonate the same way.


Another point of reference:
While his net worth isn't public information, it is known that Daggett has been president of the ILA for more than 10 years and earns a salary of $728,000, according to Politico. Daggett's salary has come under scrutiny since the strike started.

Daggett also owns his home in New Jersey, where his primary residence is, and in Highland Beach, Florida, according to records reviewed by Newsweek. His Florida property was assessed at $1.38 million in 2023, according to records, and his New Jersey property was assessed at $2.36 million.

John LeFevre, a former investment banker, stated that Daggett also recently sold his 76-foot yacht, Obsession.


A salary that's more than the CEO you're "fighting against" (and the same for your own son who got a #2 role via nepotism), millions of dollars worth of real-estate, and 76-foot yachts don't exactly convey the "man of the people" vibe you'd think people would want in a labor leader.


And the fact that he was brought up on RICO charges a decade ago for affiliations with a prominent (Genovese) crime family explains some of that "we'll crush them" rhetoric.

"This a real nice supply chain you've got here...it'd be a real shame if something bad happened to it"
 
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ThatRobGuy

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Out of curiosity, we know that the ports offered raises, but do we know if they made any response to the demand for protection against automation?
According to CBS/AP, it appears they did in their latest offer that was turned down

Monday, USMX said its latest offer would boost dockworkers' wages by nearly 50%, triple employer contributions to employee retirement plans and enhance health care coverage, while also preserving existing safeguards against automation.
 
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iluvatar5150

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It would seem as if they were already making above-market wages (if we define "market" as the collection of union/nonunion jobs for that specific vocation, and other similar ones). (which typically range from $54-$68k). The guys who have been there 3+ years are already making more than that.
$50k/yr for a physical job in an expensive urban area is garbage and an obvious indication that those folks have limited bargaining power.


They're also citing the fact that they earn less than their peers on the West Coast...welcome to the club. I earn significantly less than my peers living in San Diego as well. There's different economic conditions there.

The strike includes VHCOL cities like NYC and Boston.


Monday, USMX said its latest offer would boost dockworkers' wages by nearly 50%, triple employer contributions to employee retirement plans and enhance health care coverage.

Again, I think that's a pretty decent offer considering the fact that most are already in the upper quartile for the type of work they do.

As I've pointed out a few times now, 50% is not a "decent offer." It's a thoroughly mediocre offer that barely gets their 2018 wages above the inflation of the last several years.

The $80k they can make now is enough to afford a modest mortgage in some (but not all) of the affected cities, but it's not enough to cover childcare unless the spouse is making just as much.


In a good faith negotiation, it's certainly not the type of offer that should be met with "screw that, no way we're taking that, we'll crush you"

What was management's response to the 70% demand other than "screw that, no way"?


(especially not coming from a labor leader who, he and his son who leads a different affiliate chapter, are both pulling down close to a million per year)

Shall we compare how much the CEO's and other upper management of the shipping and port firms make?
 
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ThatRobGuy

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$50k/yr for a physical job in an expensive urban area is garbage and an obvious indication that those folks have limited bargaining power.
ILA members, for the most part, aren't making only 50k/year.

The non-union dockworkers are making $53k (which I would agree is too low)

However:
ILA workers who've been there 3 years make $67k (not counting overtime)
ILA workers who've been there 6 years make $81k (not counting overtime)

Under the union's proposal, workers would make $44 for the first year of the contract, $49 for the second and up to $69 in its final year.

$69/hour equates to $143k/year assuming a 40-hour work week (excluding overtime which would make the number much higher).


Which sounds like a more reasonable demand/compromise to you for the task of loading and unloading cargo that requires no previous certifications/specialized education or training?

$143k/year plus overtime
Total immunity against automation

or

$90-100k/year plus overtime
Tripling current contributions to 401k
Expanding healthcare benefits
Partial immunity against automation.

What was management's response to the 70% demand other than "screw that, no way"?
They upped their original offer from 40% to 50%, and added in perks of
- Triple the contributions to the employee 401k's
- Enhance Healthcare benefits
- Preserve Automation protections

Negotiations being the game of "give and take" would requires both sides to come off their original positions and meet in the middle somewhere. Thus far, there's only one entity that's been going any "giving" at the negotiation table.
Shall we compare how much the CEO's and other upper management of the shipping and port firms make?
I did in my previous post, Daggett and his son both have a salary higher than upper-end brass at USMX.

Daggett makes $900k a year (and has millions worth of real-estate and just recently sold a 78-foot yacht)
His son makes $700k a year (and got his job through nepotism)

At the company they're negotiating against:
1727965346803.png


As I noted before, ILA leadership (despite representing a much smaller organization) are raking in salaries that dwarf that of Sean O'Brien and Shawn Fain...and are more than the Executive team at the company they're negotiating against.


This isn't the same dynamic as "UAW leader negotiating against CEOs of the big 3 auto makers" we're talking about here where you had UAW workers only making $18/hour, while executive team members were getting $15-20 million/year.

Even if you want to drill into member organizations who funnel business through USMX:
Among the U.S-listed shipowners and operators, the highest paid CEO last year was David Grzebinski, CEO of Kirby (NYSE: KEX). Kirby is America’s largest operator of inland tank barges. Grzebinski earned total compensation of $5.83 million (40% of which was in the form of stock options, not cash)

Again, we're not talking about the same dynamics that exist within organized labor in the UAW or the Teamsters.
 
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iluvatar5150

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ILA members, for the most part, aren't making only 50k/year.

The non-union dockworkers are making $53k (which I would agree is too low)

However:
ILA workers who've been there 3 years make $67k (not counting overtime)
ILA workers who've been there 6 years make $81k (not counting overtime)

Under the union's proposal, workers would make $44 for the first year of the contract, $49 for the second and up to $69 in its final year.

$69/hour equates to $143k/year assuming a 40-hour work week (excluding overtime which would make the number much higher).


Which sounds like a more reasonable demand/compromise to you for the task of loading and unloading cargo?
$143k/year plus overtime
Total immunity against automation

or

$90-100k/year
Tripling contributions to 401k
Expanding healthcare benefits
Partial immunity against automation.

They both sound odd to me, tbh. Do you know the details on the 401k and health benefits?


I did in my previous post, Daggett and his son both have a salary higher than upper-end brass at USMX.

I'll concede that I overlooked those, but USMX is a trade organization, not the actual shipping and port companies.

I looked at USMX's list of members and started at the top:
The CEO of APM Terminals (apparently a subsidiary of Maersk) made $24 million DKK, or about $3.5 million USD in 2021:

I went down a ways and had trouble finding others that were publicly traded and, therefore, published their executive compensation, but if anybody cares to dig up others, I'll look at them.


This isn't the same dynamic as "UAW leader negotiating against CEOs of the big 3 auto makers" we're talking about here where you had UAW workers only making $18/hour, while executive team members were getting $15-20 million/year.
Yes, it more-or-less is. The big difference is that (afaik) the big 3 negotiate directly instead of through a trade organization.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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I'll concede that I overlooked those, but USMX is a trade organization, not the actual shipping and port companies.

I looked at USMX's list of members and started at the top:
The CEO of APM Terminals (apparently a subsidiary of Maersk) made $24 million DKK, or about $3.5 million USD in 2021:
https://investor.maersk.com/static-files/f0d066e5-ea36-43a9-8e1e-936fb292e9e3
I went down a ways and had trouble finding others that were publicly traded and, therefore, published their executive compensation, but if anybody cares to dig up others, I'll look at them.
$3.5M/year isn't the kind of same "Fat Cat" salary people are usually concerned about when discussing labor relations.

The one I posted before was the highest paid one at $5.4 million (for Kirby)
Yes, it more-or-less is. The big difference is that (afaik) the big 3 negotiate directly instead of through a trade organization.

I'm talking about in terms of the CEO:Worker salary ratios that are often invoked as the pretenses for hardline negotiations.

For instance, when the CEO of GM was getting 20 million per year, while UAW workers were making $18/hour ($37k/year)...barely over double the federal minimum wage.

That's a ratio of 500:1 that the UAW workers were contending with

The median ratio across all reported organizatios in 2023 was 290:1

The ratio of Kirby CEO to Dockworkers: 72:1
The ratio of APM CEO to Dockworkers: 46:1
The ratio of USMX CEO to Dockworkers: 9:1
These are on par with what the ratios were back in the 1970's.

This simply isn't the same level of imbalance here.

Quite frankly, these dock workers, even if nothing changed, are already getting a better deal for what they do than what UAW got with the new contract that Shawn Fain negotiated (that pro-union people celebrated and praised him for) which was a 25% raise over 4 years.

25 percent wage raises, 10 percent company contributions to 401(k) accounts, and job-security protections against automation.
When Fain and his lieutenants presented the Ford deal to the union’s top leadership on Oct. 29, there were multiple rounds of applause, said David Green, a regional UAW leader who attended the meeting.
“I’ve never seen contracts this rich in my years of paying union dues since 1989,” Green said.



So, I'd like for someone, in plain terms, to explain:
Why is a UAW contract that increases wages 25% over 4 years (for people who make only $26/hour), doubling the 401k contribution, and providing assurances against automation -- with regards to organizations where the CEOs rake in over $10M per year -- considered a "win", and a "celebration-worthy" testament to organized labor.

But an ILA contract offer that increases wages 50% over 6 years (for people who already make $35/hour), triples the 401k, expands health benefits, and provides assurances against automation -- with regards to orgs where the CEOs make between $675k-$5M -- considered "insulting"?

Apart from "well, it's a union vs. corporation battle, so we gotta get on board with whatever the union says is reasonable"

Keeping in mind Shawn Fain is known for what's called "labor militancy" and having a very aggressive negotiating style, and those were the results he got for UAW.

Is it possible that given Daggett's history...with the whole thing where he was brought up on RICO charges in 2005 for mob ties, then the key witness disappeared during the trial and their body was found 2 weeks later in a New Jersey dumpster, and several run-ins with the waterfront commission (an NY/NJ entity established to target mob activity at the docks), that maybe he's going for a different kind of militancy? And it's less of a true negotiation and more of a "shake down" (like the "good ol days")?
 
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$3.5M/year isn't the kind of same "Fat Cat" salary people are usually concerned about when discussing labor relations.

Okay? APM also isn't the parent company; it's a subsidiary. There's somebody above the APM CEO making even more. And they're European, which likely plays into it.

Quite frankly, these dock workers, even if nothing changed, are already getting a better deal for what they do than what UAW got with the new contract that Shawn Fain negotiated (that pro-union people celebrated and praised him for) which was a 25% raise over 4 years.

25 percent wage raises, 10 percent company contributions to 401(k) accounts, and job-security protections against automation.
When Fain and his lieutenants presented the Ford deal to the union’s top leadership on Oct. 29, there were multiple rounds of applause, said David Green, a regional UAW leader who attended the meeting.
“I’ve never seen contracts this rich in my years of paying union dues since 1989,” Green said.

You should look at the numbers in the UAW contract. I know the reporting says "25%", but afaik, that was the minimum and varied by company. At least at Ford, many tiers of employees got WAY more than that:

Looks like at least some did at GM, too:

Daimler Truck, a minimum of 25%:

There are tiers on that Ford chart getting raises of over 80%.
 
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You should look at the numbers in the UAW contract. I know the reporting says "25%", but afaik, that was the minimum and varied by company. At least at Ford, many tiers of employees got WAY more than that:
https://uaw.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/HourlyHighlighter-Ford_FINAL.pdf
Looks like at least some did at GM, too:
Daimler Truck, a minimum of 25%:
There are tiers on that Ford chart getting raises of over 80%.

The ones getting the bigger raises are the ones who were in the much lower tiers and who I noted were way underpaid. As I noted before, you had UAW workers making as low as $18/hour before.

An $18/hour person moving to $32/hour over a period of 3 years for a physically demanding job is very different than a person who's already making $70k+ year demanding to get bumped up to north of $130k.

With regards to the "top rate"
Per your Ford Link:
1727980222207.png


The dock workers already have a top rate that's higher than the "end of 2025" top rate for Ford (and that's before any negotiations). The ILA is pushing to move the top rate from $39/hour to $69/hour. ($69/hour equates to roughly $50k/year more than what a top tier UAW production worker will make)

You don't see that as the least bit excessive of a demand? Top Tier UAW people will be making $88k (pre-OT) at the end of the contract 2026. And that's under a contract that was called "a major win for labor" and "historic". Is there a particular reason why an offer that would equate to $90-110k (pre-OT) + tripling the 401k contribution, would be considered "Insulting"?

"Insulting" was the word they used.

If a white collar marketing/finance person or member of middle-upper management called a six-figure offer "insulting" in front of a bunch of people, I'm pretty sure they'd be labeled as "snooty" and "uppity" by many of the same people defending the ILA...at the very least, it be considered to be in poor taste.

Who that's actually "insulting" to, is the tens of millions of people who can't even fathom a six-figure job offer.
 
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The dock workers already have a top rate that's higher than the "end of 2025" top rate for Ford (and that's before any negotiations). The ILA is pushing to move the top rate from $39/hour to $69/hour. ($69/hour equates to roughly $50k/year more than what a top tier UAW production worker will make)

You don't see that as the least bit excessive of a demand?

Not really, because I think the UAW numbers are too low. There's probably some geographic influence at play since ports tend to be in more expensive urban areas while car plants aren't.


Top Tier UAW people will be making $88k (pre-OT) at the end of the contract 2026. And that's under a contract that was called "a major win for labor" and "historic". Is there a particular reason why an offer that would equate to $90-110k (pre-OT) + tripling the 401k contribution, would be considered "Insulting"?

"Insulting" was the word they used.

I don't have much interest in defending his choice of words.


If a white collar marketing/finance person or member of middle-upper management called a six-figure offer "insulting" in front of a bunch of people, I'm pretty sure they'd be labeled as "snooty" and "uppity" by many of the same people defending the ILA...at the very least, it be considered to be in poor taste.

The grandstanding might be in poor taste, but IME, the sentiment is extremely common. If I were negotiating a salary with you and you tried to lowball me, I might not tell you it was "insulting," but I'd certainly think it.
 
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Not really, because I think the UAW numbers are too low. There's probably some geographic influence at play since ports tend to be in more expensive urban areas while car plants aren't.

So what do you see as a reasonable salary for loading and unloading crates? I'm genuinely curious. Because if it's $140k/year + OT. I should probably be making somewhere in the neighborhood of $275k/year for what I do given my highly specialized skillset and 2 decades of experience.

Of course, if every low-skill manual labor job has to be six figures, I don't think I have to explain what that'll do to prices correct? Your premise, followed to its logical conclusion would mean that most everyone in the country should be making six figures (which makes the distinction meaningless which means all of the salaries need to shift upward...which cancels everything out and makes prices higher)


Sorry if this sounds "elitist", but there's no way a market economy functions under the premise that a non-skilled manual labor job should give someone the same amount of buying power in the marketplace as people with specialized educations and skillsets. (because nobody would do the latter if it didn't come with the prospect of having markedly more comfortable life than the guy tearing tickets at the movie theater)
The grandstanding might be in poor taste, but IME, the sentiment is extremely common. If I were negotiating a salary with you and you tried to lowball me, I might not tell you it was "insulting," but I'd certainly think it.

In what universe is a six figure salary + OT, robust health plan, and a 10% 401k match a "low-ball" offer (to the degree where one could be insulted by it) for a job that requires no specialized education, no specific certifications, and very little specialized training? It's not like these guys are getting offered 30k/year here...these are six figure salary offers we're talking about.


To put thing into some perspective here (from a few various sources) for some trades that do involve specialized training and skillsets:
The majority of electrical engineers earn between $83,000 and $132,000, with the top 10% making $167,000

A plumber's salary can vary depending on experience, location, and skill level:
Junior-level: $46,590 per year
Mid-level: $59,880 per year
Senior-level: $77,890 per year
Top-level: $99,920 per year

The average total pay for a master carpenter is $84,702-$96,858 per year
 
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iluvatar5150

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So what do you see as a reasonable salary for loading and unloading crates? I'm genuinely curious. Because if it's $140k/year + OT. I should probably be making somewhere in the neighborhood of $275k/year for what I do given my highly specialized skillset and 2 decades of experience.

Of course, if every low-skill manual labor job has to be six figures, I don't think I have to explain what that'll do to prices correct? Your premise, followed to its logical conclusion would mean that most everyone in the country should be making six figures (which makes the distinction meaningless which means all of the salaries need to shift upward...which cancels everything out and makes prices higher)


Sorry if this sounds "elitist", but there's no way a market economy functions under the premise that a non-skilled manual labor job should give someone the same amount of buying power in the marketplace as people with specialized educations and skillsets. (because nobody would do the latter if it didn't come with the prospect of having markedly more comfortable life than the guy tearing tickets at the movie theater)


In what universe is a six figure salary + OT, robust health plan, and a 10% 401k match a "low-ball" offer (to the degree where one could be insulted by it) for a job that requires no specialized education, no specific certifications, and very little specialized training? It's not like these guys are getting offered 30k/year here...these are six figure salary offers we're talking about.


To put thing into some perspective here (from a few various sources) for some trades that do involve specialized training and skillsets:
The majority of electrical engineers earn between $83,000 and $132,000, with the top 10% making $167,000

A plumber's salary can vary depending on experience, location, and skill level:
Junior-level: $46,590 per year
Mid-level: $59,880 per year
Senior-level: $77,890 per year
Top-level: $99,920 per year

The average total pay for a master carpenter is $84,702-$96,858 per year
I think all of our disagreements can be wrapped up by saying that our concepts of “normal” wages just differ from each other, irrespective of industry.
 
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Vambram

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