Port Workers are Set to Strike Tuesday 10/1

[Francis 1928]

The couple hundred in management seem to be just as willing to sacrifice everybody else for their own selfish wants and needs.

What these people are saying is"if you dont give us what we want(wich of course is way too much) we are going to shut this country down, and the millions of innocent people in it . ACKNOWLEDGE THAT FIRST.

 

[iluvatar5150]

What these people are saying is"if you dont give us what we want(wich of course is way too much) we are going to shut this country down, and the millions of innocent people in it . ACKNOWLEDGE THAT FIRST.

I don't acknowledge that at all. We can live without them for a bit. They're not going to "shut this country down."

What they're saying is that they are offering a service and they expect to charge a certain amount of money to provide that service, which is no different than every single business in existence. Their supposed selfishness is no different than that of management who are also apparently willing to shut everything down for the sake of their shareholders.

 

[Francis 1928]

I don't acknowledge that at all. We can live without them for a bit. They're not going to "shut this country down."

What they're saying is that they are offering a service and they expect to charge a certain amount of money to provide that service, which is no different than every single business in existence. Their supposed selfishness is no different than that of management who are also apparently willing to shut everything down for the sake of their shareholders.

I live in SC .These people down here run to the grocery store if we have under an inch of snow,or even a thunder storm.Wow you should have seen them this past weekend .They will do the same thing in this scenario. While us first shift people, are working ,they will clear out the grocery stores.I imagine it will be bad in every state.You really need to acknowledge the fact that they are willing to screw this country for their own selfish wants and needs.

 

[iluvatar5150]

I live in SC .These people down here run to the grocery store if we have under an inch of snow,or even a thunder storm.Wow you should have seen them this past weekend .They will do the same thing in this scenario. While us first shift people, are working ,they will clear out the grocery stores.I imagine it will be bad in every state.

How much of your groceries are coming in through an east coast port?

Only about 15% of our food is imported at all, and the biggest supplier is Mexico. I think you'll be okay.

You really need to acknowledge the fact that they are willing to screw this country for their own selfish wants and needs.

Sounds to me like you're willing to let them languish with declining purchasing power just so you can have a marginally more convenient trip to the grocery store.

 

[ralliann]

You guys seem to feel pretty entitled to the fruits of their labor.

As do you to management.

 

[iluvatar5150]

As do you to management.

Really? I’m not freaking out about the strike.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

What's the going rate for a Porsche?

The price on the window sticker.

But we wouldn't establish that by looking at just one dealership would we?

For instance, if 5 other dealerships were selling the model for $100k, and there was one that was asking $170k for the exact same car, we wouldn't say the the going rate for it was $170k, we'd say that it was a $100k, and that one dealership was overcharging.

In this case, due to the union contractual ties, it'd be like a rule saying that "even though you see these other 5 dealerships willing to sell the car for 100k...nope, legally we're only going to allow people in this region to purchase from this one dealership that's charging $170k...and we'll shut down the dealerships altogether if you're unwilling to give us $170k for this Porsche"


Like I noted before, similar jobs (both union and non-union) are paying less that what these guys are already making, and the management offer (which they turned down) would've put them even well beyond that.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

You guys seem to feel pretty entitled to the fruits of their labor.

That may be a misleading way to frame it...

I think people should be entitled to engage in voluntary agreements where money is exchanged for goods and services in certain sectors. Which union contracts distort when stipulations like "you're only allowed to get this service from us" are put in place and they make themselves the only contractually-allowed option for such services.

When a particular entity carves out a labor-side monopoly for themselves, for a good/service for which people are legally entitled to be able to seek out, then, in essence, they've put themselves in the position where people are entitled to the fruits of their labor.

Nobody would be entitled to their labor (in particular) if they hadn't carved out an agreement that said that the labor has to come from them, specifically, and that nobody who's not affiliated with them was allowed to provide it.

If they don't wanted to be "forced" into providing a particular service for $65k/year, there's a simple solution, voluntarily void out the contract, and allow someone else who wants to provide the service for $65k step in and do it. Problem solved, now they don't have to provide any service/labor they don't want to.


The problem arises when someone says "I don't want anyone else to be able to do this job but me, but I'm not going to do it either until you give me what I want"

 

[iluvatar5150]

But we wouldn't establish that by looking at just one dealership would we?

For instance, if 5 other dealerships were selling the model for $100k, and there was one that was asking $170k for the exact same car, we wouldn't say the the going rate for it was $170k, we'd say that it was a $100k, and that one dealership was overcharging.

In this case, due to the union contractual ties, it'd be like a rule saying that "even though you see these other 5 dealerships willing to sell the car for 100k...nope, legally we're only going to allow people in this region to purchase from this one dealership that's charging $170k...and we'll shut down the dealerships altogether if you're unwilling to give us $170k for this Porsche"

A better analogy would be that, due to the union rules, there's only one car dealership.

Like I noted before, similar jobs (both union and non-union) are paying less that what these guys are already making, and the management offer (which they turned down) would've put them even well beyond that.

No, the old contract is on the low side for union trade work, especially for the new guys. Maxing out at $40/hr isn't anything special, especially in a MCOL-HCOL area.

For comparison, here's the new contract for IBEW Local 26 (DC Metro):

https://ibewlocal26.org/Uploads/UploadedFiles/LU26%20News/Inside_ProposalSummery2024_link2.pdf

I'd post others, but a lot of the union locals restrict contract access to members.

 

[iluvatar5150]

That may be a misleading way to frame it...

No, it's not at all misleading. The other poster was getting bent out of shape that their grocery run would be inconvenienced because dock workers refused to take a certain wage. If that's not entitlement, I don't know what is.

I think people should be entitled to engage in voluntary agreements where money is exchanged for goods and services in certain sectors. Which union contracts distort when stipulations like "you're only allowed to get this service from us" are put in place and they make themselves the only contractually-allowed option for such services.

You know who also says "you're only allowed to get this service from us"? The port. Because you can't just build a new port down the road.

Union contracts rebalance the power dynamic that would otherwise skew heavily in favor of employers.

The problem arises when someone says "I don't want anyone else to be able to do this job but me, but I'm not going to do it either until you give me what I want"

The end result of that is the end of collective bargaining. Collective bargaining only works because employers aren't allowed to just replace their unionized employees.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

No, it's not at all misleading. The other poster was getting bent out of shape that their grocery run would be inconvenienced because dock workers refused to take a certain wage. If that's not entitlement, I don't know what is.

Should be people be entitled to be able to access food? Is the labor monopoly/"we're the only game in town" they've created for themselves something that could impact that access for people?

Union contracts rebalance the power dynamic that would otherwise skew heavily in favor of employers.

When you can hold an entire industry hostage that's a critical part of the supply-chain, you don't see that as the pendulum swinging too far the other way?

The end result of that is the end of collective bargaining. Collective bargaining only works because employers aren't allowed to just replace their unionized employees.

What would you see as the threshold or tipping point where collective bargaining turns into economic blackmail?

For instance, I would think you and I would agree that an exaggerated hypothetical example of if a Nurse's union decided to strike and said "we all refuse to work or help any patients until you give us a million dollars per year", that would be over that line.

However, we obviously disagree on this situation being "a tipping point"...so I'd ask, where would you personally draw "the line"?


Obviously the current administration and a bi-partisan Senate in 2022 recognized that there's "a line" somewhere, because they got a bill through (that passed with a huge bipartisan majority) to shutdown the railroad strike.

Biden signs bill to block U.S. railroad strike

President Joe Biden signed legislation Friday to block a national U.S. railroad strike that could have devastated the American economy.

www.reuters.com

...that line for them was a strike that would've frozen 30% of domestic cargo shipments.

In this case, this ILA strike will impact an estimated 77% of exports, and 45% of imports.


It also makes me wonder what impact, at all, a strike like this will have on delivering weapons to the Ukraine and if that'll create any ideological conundrums for pro-union/pro-Ukraine intervention types.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2022/08/27/ukraine-weapons-shipping-sea/

Obviously the government will play it close to the vest with regards to which commercial seaports are being used for those weapons transfers, but I would have to assume it comes from one of their designated "strategic operation readiness seaports", ...it is something to think about for those who are inclined to say that we should keep sending them weapons.

Chaos, operational disfunction, or freighter congestion at any of the following commercial seaports could certainly throw a wrench in things in that regard.
Charleston, SC
Beaumont, TX
Corpus Christi, TX
Wilmington, NC
Hampton Roads, VA
Philadelphia, PA

Compared to the list of strike locations... I see 4 of the 6 impacted.

 

[ralliann]

What these people are saying is"if you dont give us what we want(wich of course is way too much) we are going to shut this country down, and the millions of innocent people in it . ACKNOWLEDGE THAT FIRST.

This somehow comes to mind. These hired workers are going beyond comparing fellow laborers for one days work..
Good job, good wages based on what??
Mt 20:1 For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard.
2 And when he had agreed with the labourers for a penny a day, he sent them into his vineyard. {penny: the Roman penny is the eighth part of an ounce, which after five shillings the ounce is seven pence halfpenny; about fourteen cents }
3 And he went out about the third hour, and saw others standing idle in the marketplace,
4 And said unto them; Go ye also into the vineyard, and whatsoever is right I will give you. And they went their way.
5 Again he went out about the sixth and ninth hour, and did likewise.
6 And about the eleventh hour he went out, and found others standing idle, and saith unto them, Why stand ye here all the day idle?
7 They say unto him, Because no man hath hired us. He saith unto them, Go ye also into the vineyard; and whatsoever is right, that shall ye receive.
8 So when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the labourers, and give them their hire, beginning from the last unto the first.
9 And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny.
10 But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny.
11 And when they had received it, they murmured against the goodman of the house,
12 Saying, These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day. {have wrought … : or, have continued one hour only }
13 But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny?
14 Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee.
15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?

 

[ralliann]

How much of your groceries are coming in through an east coast port?

Only about 15% of our food is imported at all, and the biggest supplier is Mexico. I think you'll be okay.


Sounds to me like you're willing to let them languish with declining purchasing power just so you can have a marginally more convenient trip to the grocery store.

What happened to purchasing power? For us it is just a convenience?

 

[iluvatar5150]

Should be people be entitled to be able to access food? Is the labor monopoly/"we're the only game in town" they've created for themselves something that could impact that access for people?

As I pointed out to the other poster, most food in the US doesn't come through the impacted ports.

When you can hold an entire industry hostage that's a critical part of the supply-chain, you don't see that as the pendulum swinging too far the other way?

When the management of these ports holds the exact same amount of power? No, I don't.

I'd be open to some sort of neutral third party arbitrator who could press both sides into something amounting to "reasonable", but absent that, I don't have any problem at all with workers using their collective power to keep some of the fruits of their labor for themselves.

What would you see as the threshold or tipping point where collective bargaining turns into economic blackmail?

For instance, I would think you and I would agree that an exaggerated hypothetical example of if a Nurse's union decided to strike and said "we all refuse to work or help any patients until you give us a million dollars per year", that would be over that line.

However, we obviously disagree on this situation being "a tipping point"...so I'd ask, where would you personally draw "the line"?

That's a good question.

It also makes me wonder what impact, at all, a strike like this will have on delivering weapons to the Ukraine and if that'll create any ideological conundrums for pro-union/pro-Ukraine intervention types.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2022/08/27/ukraine-weapons-shipping-sea/

I believe I read that cruise ships and military ships are exempted from the strike.

What happened to purchasing power? For us it is just a convenience?

I was referring to the purchasing power of the workers. Due to their wages not keeping up with inflation, their purchasing power has eroded over time.

 

[ralliann]

As I pointed out to the other poster, most food in the US doesn't come through the impacted ports.



When the management of these ports holds the exact same amount of power? No, I don't.

I'd be open to some sort of neutral third party arbitrator who could press both sides into something amounting to "reasonable", but absent that, I don't have any problem at all with workers using their collective power to keep some of the fruits of their labor for themselves.




That's a good question.



I believe I read that cruise ships and military ships are exempted from the strike.

I was referring to the purchasing power of the workers.

I know, your purchasing power, is just my inconvenience.

Due to their wages not keeping up with inflation, their purchasing power has eroded over time.

Our wages are not either, and you make it even worse. Billions of taxpayer dollars spent on an immigrant class in this country, brought in by choice. Government spending on our dime has caused this inflation. Now a class of workers, putting the effects of that on business, to reckon for them alone, and further reduce our spending power. Then union bosses continue to endorse these government officials. Seems like it could be perceived as a racket.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

That's a good question.

Obviously the dynamics are obviously different between domestic cargo transportation vs. import/export stuff...
(I would say in most scenarios domestic is more important)

The Biden Administration (and a bi-partisan Senate) opted to intervene over the railroad strike that was slated to impact 30% of domestic cargo transfers.

This situation is estimated to impact 77% of exports and 45% of imports.

While having over half of import/export halted may not have the same level of consequences as a third of domestic cargo transports being shut down, I would have to think it's somewhat in the same ballpark.

I believe I read that cruise ships and military ships are exempted from the strike.

The military ships themselves (if that's even what the government uses for things...one wonders if they may take the helm of commercial ships for such endeavors to maintain some "under the radar" transfer of weapons...I doubt they'd be transporting weapons to Ukraine in a clearly marked military cargo ship with a bumper sticker that says "Ukraine or bust" on the back) being exempted doesn't necessarily equate to "disruption-free" if there is congestion at the ports involving cargo ships that can't unload and are basically stuck there.

Just at the NJ/NY ports alone, per NBC:
At New York/New Jersey terminals, ships carrying an estimated 100,000 shipping containers “are literally in limbo in the port, said New York Gov. Kathy Hochul in remarks made on Tuesday. Shortly after midnight, the governor had said that in preparation for the first large-scale eastern dockworker strike in 47 years, “New York has been working around the clock to ensure that our grocery stores and medical facilities have the essential products they need.”

Rhetoric from ILA leadership had been aggressive in the weeks leading up to the strike, with ILA President Harold Daggett, who was a union member the last time it went out on strike in 1977, telling rank-and-file members — who unanimously voted to authorize a strike — in a recent video message, “We’ll crush them.”

Shana Wray, principal solutions architect for supply chain intelligence firm FourKites, tells NBC the strike comes at the worst possible time, with its impact on supply chain congestion to exacerbate the devastation left behind from Hurricane Helene.




The other aspect that's going to particularly impact Democrats/Harris, is how the current administration deals with this. A major economic disruption this close to election time isn't going to be a great look for Harris, who's part of the current administration. Especially if the Biden administration has the perception of "siding with the ILA over the American consumers, at large" (many of which are recovering after getting hit with a hurricane)

 

[Vambram]

Biden to stay out of port strike as trade flows halt, union boss threatens to ‘cripple’ economy

Breaking up the strike with his presidential authority could damage Kamala Harris’ chances with a key union worker constituency, but an economic chaos may damage her cause, too.

justthenews.com

I am very concerned that ILA President Harold Daggett is willing to cripple the economy. I am also very concerned that Joe Biden said that he doesn't believe in the Taft-Hartley Act.

 

[iluvatar5150]

Biden to stay out of port strike as trade flows halt, union boss threatens to ‘cripple’ economy

Breaking up the strike with his presidential authority could damage Kamala Harris’ chances with a key union worker constituency, but an economic chaos may damage her cause, too.

justthenews.com

I am very concerned that ILA President Harold Daggett is willing to cripple the economy. I am also very concerned that Joe Biden said that he doesn't believe in the Taft-Hartley Act.

No concern that the port owners are willing to cripple the economy in order to keep more of their profits?

 

[ralliann]

No concern that the port owners are willing to cripple the economy in order to keep more of their profits?

That is not what these workers are asking. The workers are asking they pay for inflation only to themselves...Who voted for billions to go to illegal immigrants? Nobody! But we certainly had people supporting it all the way. Let them pay.

 

[Arcangl86]

Biden to stay out of port strike as trade flows halt, union boss threatens to ‘cripple’ economy

Breaking up the strike with his presidential authority could damage Kamala Harris’ chances with a key union worker constituency, but an economic chaos may damage her cause, too.

justthenews.com

I am very concerned that ILA President Harold Daggett is willing to cripple the economy. I am also very concerned that Joe Biden said that he doesn't believe in the Taft-Hartley Act.

Are you also very concerned that USMX CEO David Adams is willing to cripple the economy?