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Mary was a good person and had a sinful nature like all of us.

JoeT

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Yes, you understand correctly that I believe Jesus saves people from their sins. That was what the Angel said to Joseph, that His name would be Jesus because He would save His people from their sins. We don't read of anybody not having any sins to be saved from because Jesus has prevented them from sinning.
That's untrue. We read of just or holly people throughout the bible. Sin and holiness repel each other like oil on water.
You have to assume that Mary was sinless to believe that when she said "my Saviour", she meant "the One Who has kept me from ever sinning."
No you don't, Mary receives her justification at her conception. God saves her, thus to proclaim her savior is quite appropriate.

Conversely, you are left with the conundrum of explaining how Christ's humanity is born without original sin which is received by ALL born of woman.

JoeT
 
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NotUrAvgGuy

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You don't have a sin nature nor did Mary. Given her justification at conception (kecharitomene, “completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace." according to Blass and DeBrunner,), she never knew sin. Thus she never experienced 'disordered desires'.

JoeT
Many would disagree with that definition of the word and it was used of Stephen as well as Mary. You are going to build your entire doctrine of Mary's sinlessness on that one word in one passage?
 
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NotUrAvgGuy

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That's untrue. We read of just or holly people throughout the bible. Sin and holiness repel each other like oil on water.

No you don't, Mary receives her justification at her conception. God saves her, thus to proclaim her savior is quite appropriate.

Conversely, you are left with the conundrum of explaining how Christ's humanity is born without original sin which is received by ALL born of woman.

JoeT
Original sin affects our spirit which neither comes to us from our mother or our father. Our spirit is not genetic - it is not a part of our DNA. All children born of man and woman receive a sin nature. Jesus was the exception as he is more than a man. He is fully divine. His spiritual nature is divine and divinity cannot sin. Mary only contributed to his physical humanity but not to his spiritual nature. That does not make him less human nor does it imply a separation. Our spirits come from God as well yet are fully infused in us such that we do not talk about being two separate beings. We are one being but with a physical nature and a spiritual nature. Jesus had to be "one of us" in his physical nature but thankfully was not like us in his spiritual nature or he never could have been our savior.

No conundrum.
 
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NotUrAvgGuy

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That's untrue. We read of just or holly people throughout the bible. Sin and holiness repel each other like oil on water.

No you don't, Mary receives her justification at her conception. God saves her, thus to proclaim her savior is quite appropriate.

Conversely, you are left with the conundrum of explaining how Christ's humanity is born without original sin which is received by ALL born of woman.

JoeT
I can think of no greater honor than being called by God, "a man after God's own heart" which is what God called David. We know David sinned. Job was called just and righteous yet we know he sinned. Abraham was called righteous yet we know he sinned. One can sin, repent, be forgiven, and then be just or holy. Peter certainly sinned yet who would not call him a just man?

No one is perfectly holy but God. No one is perfectly just but God. We can only be those things perfectly in Christ yet on earth we still speak of holy and just men and women, Compared to God's perfect holiness, they are not. There is though a human sense where through their faith and by their good works we man call them holy, righteous, or just yet we understand they are none of those things by God's standard.
 
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Valletta

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As I previously wrote, in Genesis and Revelation, the word "woman" is used to denote a female:

"And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and hers;
he will crush your head,
and you will strike his heel.
” (Genesis 3:15)

The woman in Genesis 3:15 is Eve and it is an offspring of hers (though generations later) that will crush Satan. God could have said "I will put enmity between you and Eve..." but God never addresses Eve by name. She is always referred to as "the woman." In fact, it is not until verse 20 we are told Adam named his wife Eve. So how else would God have referred to her? She did not yet have a name.

"A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun" (Genesis 12:1)

All we are told is that a woman appeared in heaven. She is not named. John could have said "Mary clothed with the sun" but does not identify the woman. John knew Mary and could have named her but only says "a woman." Naturally, it would be a woman, even if said metaphorically, because only women give birth. One could just as convincingly argue that Israel "gave birth to a son" (i.e. the Messiah). Revelation is full of imagery and figurative language.

Woman,” Jesus replied, “believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem." (John 4:21)

Here, Jesus addresses the Samaritan woman at the well as "woman." I hear no one suggesting she is Mary, or this ties her back to the "woman" in Genesis or the "woman" in Revelation. It was a common way to address a woman and not as harsh as it might sound to our ears today. In fact, Jesus addresses a woman as "woman" 7 times in the NT including Mary his mother (twice), Mary Magdalene, the woman caught in adultery, the Samaritan woman at the well, the crippled woman in Luke 13:10-17, and the Canaanite woman in 15:21-28. Calling his mother Mary "woman" is hardly a unique occurrence nor does that tie it to the gender designation in the Genesis and Revelation passages. This attempts to draw a parallel where there is none in Scripture. It may be RC teaching that these passages tie together but that cannot be established from Scripture.
No one said "woman" is exclusively used for Mary, but children did not call their mother "woman" every day. You want "woman" to be used for a female EXCEPT for Revelation, where the mother of Jesus is obviously Mary. As I've pointed out, Mary wears clothes, perhaps clothes of the sun in Heaven. Israel sure does not wear clothes. And so many anti-Catholics wish to deny Mary the title of queen, a title given to every other mother of the king in the Davidic kingdom since Solomon. A queen, of course, wears clothes and a crown. It's quite clear to me that Mary is the primary woman being spoken of, but, again, there are twelve tribes of Israel as there are twelve Apostles and other allusions to Israel, and I believe Israel is a secondary meaning. John was pointing back to Genesis when he then describes the wedding at Cana and Mary, addressed as "woman." The New Eve's request at the wedding is the catalyst for the public miracle and the journey through the New Adam's ministry to the cross. Eve was the catalyst for grave sin by Adam.
Also, the fact that even sinned by eating the fruit of a tree and Jesus died on a cross made from the wood of a tree is not proof of any parallel. Most fruit grows on trees and wood has long been a common building material. The Romans could have constructed crosses out of metal but that would have been too costly and metal was needed for more important things. There is no certain symbology here.
Yes, the Romans "could have," but God KNEW what they WOULD do. Saint Cyril of Jerusalem, Doctor of the Church, wrote:

2. And wonder not that the whole world was ransomed; for it was no mere man, but the only-begotten Son of God, who died on its behalf. Moreover one man's sin, even Adam's, had power to bring death to the world; but if by the trespass of the one death reigned over the world, how shall not life much rather reign by the righteousness of the One Romans 5:17-18? And if because of the tree of food they were then cast out of paradise, shall not believers now more easily enter into paradise because of the Tree of Jesus? If the first man formed out of the earth brought in universal death, shall not He who formed him out of the earth bring in eternal life, being Himself the Life? If Phinees, when he waxed zealous and slew the evil-doer, staved the wrath of God, shall not Jesus, who slew not another, but gave up Himself for a ransom 1 Timothy 2:6, put away the wrath which is against mankind?
 
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Valletta

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Many would disagree with that definition of the word and it was used of Stephen as well as Mary. You are going to build your entire doctrine of Mary's sinlessness on that one word in one passage?
Incorrect. Kecharitomene is only used one place in the Bible. It is used as a title for Mary, and as I stated before it shows that Mary in the past was imparted with the described grace. As I also mentioned there is no exact English translation, the root word means "grace" but it thus should be no surprise that there will be differences in translations.
You've already been shown, in this thread, other Biblical passages that point toward Mary being sinless, although your personal interpretations do not agree. Given that fact, why make the assertion that doctrine is somehow built on one example from the Bible? it is the Catholic approach to consider the Word of God as a whole, that way Biblical passages can be understood in context. Why do you find it necessary to continually accuse Mary of having sinned beyond the fact that a sinless Mary is part of the Catholic faith?
 
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JoeT

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I can think of no greater honor than being called by God, "a man after God's own heart" which is what God called David. We know David sinned. Job was called just and righteous yet we know he sinned. Abraham was called righteous yet we know he sinned. One can sin, repent, be forgiven, and then be just or holy. Peter certainly sinned yet who would not call him a just man?

No one is perfectly holy but God. No one is perfectly just but God. We can only be those things perfectly in Christ yet on earth we still speak of holy and just men and women, Compared to God's perfect holiness, they are not. There is though a human sense where through their faith and by their good works we man call them holy, righteous, or just yet we understand they are none of those things by God's standard.
So what's next, God makes man 'good' then re-makes him evil, then Jesus says Be "perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect" [Matthew 5:48] but the Average Guy says, I'm made evil by God and I can't be perfect, therefore I'm saved because "I believe"? Seems to me your bible is lying to you.

JoeT
 
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NotUrAvgGuy

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So what's next, God makes man 'good' then re-makes him evil, then Jesus says Be "perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect" [Matthew 5:48] but the Average Guy says, I'm made evil by God and I can't be perfect, therefore I'm saved because "I believe"? Seems to me your bible is lying to you.

JoeT
Joe, I think you need to read the Bible and understand it in context. When God pronounced each day of creation "good," that did not mean perfect; otherwise, sin could never have happened. Obviously, Adam and Eve could choose to sin, so they were not perfect. The angels are not perfect as we will be in heaven, but even then our perfection will pale in comparison to God's. We will never be His equal.

God did not make us evil. We made ourselves evil. We have a sin nature but God does not force us to sin. When Jesus says to be perfect, that word also means complete and mature. He is telling us what to strive for and perfection is God's standard but it is within God's right to demand that which we cannot provide/perform. It is still his standard.

Let me ask you this. Do you think anyone can be perfect in this life? Do you think that is possible? Who has been perfect? Was God unjust to create beings that could sin?

My Bible doesn't lie. It tells me I must be perfect and tells me I can't be. Contradiction? No! It tells me I can't be perfect on my own but in Christ, I can be. God has provided the solution.
 
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LoveofTruth

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Remember that the Catholic Church existed before one Word of the New Testament was written.
No it didn’t.

“According to "The Moody Handbook of Theology," the official beginning of the Roman Catholic church occurred in 590 C.E., with Pope Gregory I. This time marked the consolidation of lands controlled by the authority of the pope, and thus the church's power, into what would later be known as "the Papal States”
When text was chosen by the Catholic Church any text that did not conform with Catholic teaching was rejected.
Wring all scripture is profitable for doctrine not the other way around. You don’t just create a doctrine then try to make the scriptures for. The early believers also had the scriptures of the OT which are profitable for doctrine etc.
Many truths, such as the Holy Trinity, are not explicitly stated in the Bible but are supported by Holy Scripture.
The trinity is clearly understood from scripture even the Old Testament scripture.

The word “Bible” is also not in the Bible, so this argument dies not go anywhere.
The Angel Gabriel addresses Mary with the title of kecharitōmenē, of which there is no exact English translation. It means Mary was, in the past, embued with a full and everlasting grace.
No, only Jesus is said to be full of grace . Jesus was without sin. We don’t find that expression “full of grace” anywhere else in the Bible (the King Janes Bible).

John 1: 14. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.”

Of Mary we read,

Luke 1: 28. And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.”
This supports the fact she is sinless. In Genesis the woman is associated with the crushing of the head of the Serpent (Satan) and we see that fulfilled in Revelation. Mary is an important part of salvation history. The first Eve sinned, the "new Eve," Mary, did not.
Mary is not called the second Eve. Jesus is the second Adam, so if Nary is Eve what a confusion that creates.

We read who the mother of us all is and it is not Mary ,

Galatians 4: 26. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.”
 
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JulieB67

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In 1 Peter, Peter introduces himself as "Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ...The elders therefore among you I exhort, who am a fellow elder." He does not introduce himself as the head of the church or the highest-ranking Apostle. He says he is a "fellow elder" not putting himself any higher than the men he is writing.
Yes.

This verse puts Peter on equal status with the rest of the elders

I Peter 5:1 "The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:"

He's simply an elder just as they are. A leader yes, but not the head of the church/body That belongs to Christ.

And it was the apostles doctrine as a whole that fed that early church setting that foundation.

Acts 2:42 "And they continued steadfastly in the apostles doctrine and followship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers."
 
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David Lamb

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The Angel Gabriel addresses Mary with the title of kecharitōmenē, of which there is no exact English translation. It means Mary was, in the past, embued with a full and everlasting grace.
I am assuming you are thinking of Luke 1:28:

“And having come in, the angel said to her, "Rejoice, highly favored [one], the Lord [is] with you; blessed [are] you among women!"” (Lu 1:28 NKJV)

Can you help me understand your post? Which of the English words is/are used for kecharitōmenē? According to my reference works, "highly favored one" translates charitoo, "blessed" translates eulogeo, so where does kecharitōmenē come in?
 
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Valletta

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I am assuming you are thinking of Luke 1:28:

“And having come in, the angel said to her, "Rejoice, highly favored [one], the Lord [is] with you; blessed [are] you among women!"” (Lu 1:28 NKJV)

Can you help me understand your post? Which of the English words is/are used for kecharitōmenē? According to my reference works, "highly favored one" translates charitoo, "blessed" translates eulogeo, so where does kecharitōmenē come in?
Sorry for the lack of specifics, yes Luke 1:28. The English translation of kecharitōmenē and in your King James Bible is "highly favored." Kecharitōmenē is a perfect past participle and the root word is charis. "Charis," and I will give you a link to popular Protestant guides (Strong's and Thayers) means "grace."


Both "highly favored" and "full of grace" fall short in the translation. The Angel Gabriel uses it in the form of a title, and being a perfect past participle it indicates Mary was given this grace in the past.
 
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Valletta

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No it didn’t.

“According to "The Moody Handbook of Theology," the official beginning of the Roman Catholic church occurred in 590 C.E., with Pope Gregory I. This time marked the consolidation of lands controlled by the authority of the pope, and thus the church's power, into what would later be known as "the Papal States”

Wring all scripture is profitable for doctrine not the other way around. You don’t just create a doctrine then try to make the scriptures for. The early believers also had the scriptures of the OT which are profitable for doctrine etc.

The trinity is clearly understood from scripture even the Old Testament scripture.

The word “Bible” is also not in the Bible, so this argument dies not go anywhere.

No, only Jesus is said to be full of grace . Jesus was without sin. We don’t find that expression “full of grace” anywhere else in the Bible (the King Janes Bible).

John 1: 14. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.”

Of Mary we read,

Luke 1: 28. And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.”

Mary is not called the second Eve. Jesus is the second Adam, so if Nary is Eve what a confusion that creates.

We read who the mother of us all is and it is not Mary ,

Galatians 4: 26. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.”
Actually your King James Bible refers to Stephen as being full of grace in Acts 6:8. Realize that the Catholic Church existed before one word of the New Testament was written. It was the Catholic Church that chose the 73 books of the Bible in a process that spanned centuries, long before the date in your theology book. Saint Athanasius is credited with the first New Testament Biblical canon, his list is contained in his Thirty-Ninth Festal Letter of 367 A.D. This list was approved by Pope Damasus, and formally approved of by Councils at Hippo and Carthage in the late 300s. Pope Innocent I wrote a letter to the Bishop of Toulouse in 405 A.D. containing the list. The list was re-affirmed at Carthage in 419 A.D., by the Council of Florence 1442 A.D., and by the Council of Trent in 1546 A.D.
Mary was given to us(not just to John) as our spiritual mother by Jesus when He was on the cross.
 
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NotUrAvgGuy

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Sorry for the lack of specifics, yes Luke 1:28. The English translation of kecharitōmenē and in your King James Bible is "highly favored." Kecharitōmenē is a perfect past participle and the root word is charis. "Charis," and I will give you a link to popular Protestant guides (Strong's and Thayers) means "grace."


Both "highly favored" and "full of grace" fall short in the translation. The Angel Gabriel uses it in the form of a title, and being a perfect past participle it indicates Mary was given this grace in the past.
Being full of something does not necessarily mean to the fullest possible extent and to one's full being. If I say someone is full of faith that does not mean there is no room for further faith. Saying someone is full of enthusiadm does not mean they couldn't have more enthusiasm. Mary waa full of grace but that does not make her sinless.
 
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David Lamb

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Sorry for the lack of specifics, yes Luke 1:28. The English translation of kecharitōmenē and in your King James Bible is "highly favored." Kecharitōmenē is a perfect past participle and the root word is charis. "Charis," and I will give you a link to popular Protestant guides (Strong's and Thayers) means "grace."


Both "highly favored" and "full of grace" fall short in the translation. The Angel Gabriel uses it in the form of a title, and being a perfect past participle it indicates Mary was given this grace in the past.
Thanks for explaining. Looking again at reference works, I see that charitoo is also used here:

“to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved.” (Eph 1:6 NKJV)

The root word charis is used 147 times, including:

“And with great power the apostles gave witness to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And great grace was upon them all.” (Ac 4:33 NKJV)

“For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; [it is] the gift of God,” (Eph 2:8 NKJV)

So it doesn't seem to be restricted in its use to Mary.
 
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Valletta

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Thanks for explaining. Looking again at reference works, I see that charitoo is also used here:

“to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved.” (Eph 1:6 NKJV)

The root word charis is used 147 times, including:

“And with great power the apostles gave witness to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And great grace was upon them all.” (Ac 4:33 NKJV)

“For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; [it is] the gift of God,” (Eph 2:8 NKJV)

So it doesn't seem to be restricted in its use to Mary.
You're welcome. Charitoo comes from the root word charis. Yes, you are correct, grace is not restricted to Mary. However, the actual word used by the Angel Gabriel, kecharitōmenē, to address Mary, is only used that once in the Bible.
 
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JoeT

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Joe, I think you need to read the Bible and understand it in context. When God pronounced each day of creation "good," that did not mean perfect; otherwise, sin could never have happened. Obviously, Adam and Eve could choose to sin, so they were not perfect. The angels are not perfect as we will be in heaven, but even then our perfection will pale in comparison to God's. We will never be His equal.
This discussion surrounds the phrase "sin nature". I've consistently stated that there is no such thing because it implies God is pernicious as the human nature is inherent, attributes imbued in God's creation of man, in the birth of each man/woman.
God did not make us evil. We made ourselves evil. We have a sin nature but God does not force us to sin.
Indeed He did not make us evil, but that's precisely what the term "sin nature" accuses God of. We are not "made" into sin, we choose to sin.
When Jesus says to be perfect, that word also means complete and mature. He is telling us what to strive for and perfection is God's standard but it is within God's right to demand that which we cannot provide/perform. It is still his standard.

Let me ask you this. Do you think anyone can be perfect in this life? Do you think that is possible? Who has been perfect? Was God unjust to create beings that could sin?

My Bible doesn't lie. It tells me I must be perfect and tells me I can't be. Contradiction? No! It tells me I can't be perfect on my own but in Christ, I can be. God has provided the solution.

Notice the word "perfect" comes from the Latin perfectus, i.e. finished or completed. We can conclude we have the capability to be perfect, without want, according to our maker. To deny God's creation is perfect is disbelief.

JoeT
 
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LoveofTruth

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Actually your King James Bible refers to Stephen as being full of grace in Acts 6:8.
Acts 6: 8. And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and miracles among the people.”

Not in the King James Bible.

But if Stephen was full of grace he was a sinner as all men are (except Jesus) and this would show you that a person can be full of faith or grace and yet this dors not mean they have no sin or are born without sin.

But as I said the word full of grace is not directly used of Stephen in the KJV.
Realize that the Catholic Church existed before one word of the New Testament was written.
No they were not the early apostles and other believers wrote the scriptures way before any Papist Roman Catholic church was created by man as history proves.
It was the Catholic Church that chose the 73 books of the Bible in a process that spanned centuries,
Being involved in organizing text is much different than being before they were written. The Levites in the Old Testament copied scripture abd yet they were not all saved so providing a physical function and preservation does not mean that the writers are always saved.
 
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David Lamb

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Acts 6: 8. And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and miracles among the people.”

Not in the King James Bible.
No, the only person of whom the phrase "full of grace" is used in the KJV is Jesus Himself:

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. (John 1:14)
 
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Valletta

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But as I said the word full of grace is not directly used of Stephen in the KJV.

No they were not the early apostles and other believers wrote the scriptures way before any Papist Roman Catholic church was created by man as history proves.

Being involved in organizing text is much different than being before they were written.
You are correct on the King James translation but not on the rest. First, realize that the Apostles were the first bishops of the Catholic Church. As I explained, the process of the Catholic Church choosing the books of the Bible spanned centuries. It was hardly a matter of "organizing." First, inspired by the Holy Spirit, the Catholic Church decided to compile the books of the Bible. There is nothing in the Bible about Jesus ordering such a compilation. The process of choosing the 73 books of the Bible spanned centuries. The final list was not decided upon by the Catholic Church until the 300s. Saint Athanasius is credited with the first New Testament Biblical canon, his list is contained in his Thirty-Ninth Festal Letter of 367 A.D.
 
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