What is Hell?

[eleos1954]

Thank you.
I agree with what you said on those scriptures you quoted.
When you say hell is the grave, I assume you are referring to hell that is used for the Hebrew Sheol, and Greek Hades, and not the Greek Gehenna, and Greek Tartarus?

Greek Gehenna ... represents/symbolic of The fire of God's justice that will one day consume all evil and remove it once and for all. AMEN!!
Greek Tartarus -In Greek mythology, Tartarus is symbolic of a deep abyss that is used as a dungeon of torment and suffering for the wicked and as the prison for the Titans.

When God executes His final judgement (that of the wicked) it will be by eternal fire (fire that comes from Him - out of eternity) ... no doubt there will be suffering for those who are condemned to the 2nd death but their suffering is not for eternity.

The point is ... there is not a forever burning place.

The wages of sin is death not eternal burning.

1 Corinthians 15:26
New International Version
​

26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1 Corinthians 15&version=NIV
Death is the opposite of life ... exist or not exist. We aren't supposed to be confused about it.

Some will receive eternal life (live forever with the Lord) some will not.

John 5

28Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming when all who are in their graves will hear His voice 29and come out— those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

When one studies the Word of God some seem to miss the type and anti-type relationship (between the OT and the NT), I highly recommend a person gets an understanding of the typology that is used in the Word of God. It really is helpful understanding (especially difficult verses) and better understanding of biblical prophecy.

In the Bible, typology is a method of interpretation that focuses on people, events, and institutions in the Old Testament that point to a greater reality in the future.

Typology is used in the Old Testament, New Testament, and by Jesus.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

The Satanists have an odd view:

 

[CoreyD]

This is a subject I've studied going back 16 years so I know it to be pretty complicated as a whole. I know Steve Gregg and he wouldn't put any more or less time into a lecture than was necessary.

"Hell" is a one size fits all word for different things/places. Briefly stated it basically comes from the Germanic "hel" for "to cover" is in helmet.

I'd appreciate a credible source where this is found, thanks. So long as the link is not from a religious source.
Also, if you can also show where the Hebrew word Sheol, is in its early stage translated 'hel', I would appreciate that as well. Thanks.

Anytime you see "hell" in the Old Testament, it's a translation of the word Sheol (שְּׁאֹ֣ול). The definition of which is: underworld (place to which people descend at death). It's never used in the Old Testament to describe a place of punishment, or torment, or fire.

We agree on this, with the exception of one thing.
The underworld is Greek mythology, and has no place in the Hebrew scriptures... much less the Christian Greek scriptures.
When the Hebrew scriptures were translated into Greek in ancient Alexandria around 200 BCE, the word "Hades" (the Greek underworld) was substituted for Sheol, owing to its similarities to the Underworld of Greek mythology. The gloss of Sheol as "Hades" is reflected in the New Testament where Hades is both the underworld of the dead and the personification of the evil it represents

As you can see, this is a late century doctrine that became rooted in mainstream Christianity. An unscriptural doctrine, which was based on the idea that the soul is immortal, and the souls of the wicked will eternally be tormented.
In some Greek sources Tartarus is another name for the underworld (serving as a metonym for Hades), while in others it is a completely distinct realm separate from the underworld.
Tartarus
A deep abyss used as a dungeon of torment and suffering for the wicked and as the prison for the Titans, Tartarus was also considered to be a primordial deity.

Since the Hebrew text, refer to the grave, the Greek texts also refer to the grave.

This can be seen in a number of scriptures. One of these quoted from Psalm 16:10.
Acts 2:30-32
31 Foreseeing this, David spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that He was not abandoned to Hades, nor did His body see decay.

The New Testament written in Koine Greek doesn't use the word Hebrew word Sheol. I'm not sure at the moment what the Greek word used in the Septuagint (Greek translation of the Old Testament) is but it's probably Hades. In the New Testament what collectively gets translated as "hell" in some bibles are the words Gehenna, Hades and Tartarus

In the KJV, and other translations based on the KJV, yes.

I've linked each word to where it appears in scripture according to Young's Literal Translation (YLT).

From the lexicon:

Gehenna: a valley west and South of Jerusalem, also a symbolic name for the final place of punishment of the ungodly
Usage: Gehenna, and originally the name of a valley or cavity near Jerusalem, a place underneath the earth, a place of punishment for evil.

Hades: the abode of departed spirits. Usage: Hades, the unseen world.

Tartarus: to cast into hell. Usage: I thrust down to Tartarus or Gehenna.

Sheol and Hades seem to be a pretty close match.

Yes, Sheol and Hades are equivalent. They both mean the same thing - grave.
While Tartarus, and Gehenna mean both refer to something different.

Jonah 2:2
And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the Lord, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.

In some cases in the OT the term is used figuratively.

In Jonah 2:6 he describes it being forever. So basically in Jonah 2 he describes being in the fish's belly as being in hell for eternity.

Thanks for that scripture - Jonah 2:6.
It reads... "To the roots of the mountains I descended; the earth beneath me barred me in forever! But You raised my life from the pit (shachath), O LORD my God!"
So, Job, thought he was as good as dead, and did not believe in an eternal hell, but an eternal place in the grave - the earth, that would bar him from life.

As you said, earlier, "Most everything about "hell" in the OT is about the grave."
In other word, the Hebrew word Sheol was understood to be the grave of mankind - where one R.I.P.
The belly of the fish would become Jonah's grave... if God did not rescue him.

Psalm 16:10 "For you will not abandon my soul to Sheol, nor let your devout one see the pit (shachath)."

The traditional idea is "hell" up until the final judgement is a place with two compartments. Hades where the Rich Man ended up, and Abraham's Bosom where Lazarus ended up, as described in Luke 16:19-31. At the time of judgment those who are in the Hades compartment are thrown into the Lake of Fire and then the compartment itself is also thrown into the LoF.

It sounds like an interesting interpretation of Jesus' parable.

 

[CoreyD]

It isn't one verse. It is an entire dialogue that starts in Matthew 25:31-46 that is being ignored. Not only does Christ tells unbelievers they are going into eternal punishment in Matt 25:46 ( 46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”) but He said it in his opening remarks in Matt 25:41 (41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, you accursed people, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels. So He states it twice. Quite frankly, I'm not sure how many times He needs to repeat Himself. This is exactly what is stated in Revelation 20 ( 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.) The devil, his angels, and unbelievers are cast into the Lake of Fire (which is, according to Christ, eternal punishment).

We can get into all the gobbledygook nonsense of Greek and Hebrew, and the obfuscation of picking and choosing hell, hades, sheol, etc. But there is nothing in the verses in Matthew 25 that suggest the "finality of death and destruction" is permanent. You can't have eternal punishment if you're not around. What's more, eternal punishment is contrast against heavenly joy. So if you are going to compare apples to apples, you would have to say there is no heaven reward because everyone is simply going to go "POOF".

There are lots (and lots) of people out there that will tell you anything. This has been going on since the Judaizers tried to convince people they needed to be circumcised to be saved.

There are no views in orthodox Christianity which believes as you are suggesting that I'm aware of. And when you have the clear teachings of the Scriptures, and the traditional teachings of the church, then it might be a sign that one has gone off the rails.

I appreciate how you used those scriptures.

There are a few questions, I'll like to ask on this.
What is the lake of fire?
What does it mean that death and hell are cast into thee lake of fire? Will those be punished with fire, forever?

How would you explain that?

Please read post #35. I would explain Revelation 20 in context to Matthew 25:34-46.

Thanks. I have already read that, but there isn't anything there explaining how hell is cast into hell, if hell is Gehenna, the lake of fire, and Hades.

My question is, if hell is Gehenna, the lake of fire, and Hades, how do you explain hell being cast into hell?

May I ask, how do you go about knowing? Do you use a Hebrew/Greek dictionary, or do just read a Bible translation... perhaps KJV?

1) I look at the text in question (NASB or ESV)
2) I look at any cross references that might clarify the verse with other Scripture.
3) Then I look at the Greek/Hebrew versions (through online tools) to see if they offer any insight
4) Finally I review commentaries and traditional teachings to ensure I have a correct understanding.

If there are no cross references to a particular verse or phrase, and if the Greek/Hebrew offers no clue, and if the commentaries vary in their interpretation, I leave it alone. It is dangerous to speculate.

I appreciate that, thanks.

When it says the sea gave up the dead which were in it, you agree, I hope, that this is saying the dead in the sea are resurrected.

No, I would not agree. I have yet to find ANYONE who can interpret Revelation and make sense of it. I don't believe in a literal interpretation of Revelation simply because I don't think some gigantic beast is going to arise with 10 horns. However, as you will see in post #35, you can compare Revelation 20:14-15 with Matthew 25:41,46. In all cases, it talks about unbelievers being thrown into the lake of fire with the devil and his demons. If the lake of fire was simply cutting people off in death, then you would 1) deny eternal punishment as stated in Matthew 25, and 2) eternal punishment for Satan and his demons since they will also be in the lake of fire.

Oh, okay.
It's good to know that you recognize that Revelation is given in symbolism.
So you do not see the lake of fire as literal fire then. That's cool.
So, we agree then that no one will be literally tormented in the lake of fire?
Also, the sea in Revelation 21:1, does not refer to the literal sea, nor does the heavens and the earth mentioned there, refer to the literal heavens and earth?

I showed you specifically where it tells us the faith of unbelievers and believers (Matt 25). Apart from all this idle speculation about various names (e.g. sheol, hell, gihanna, etc), I have yet to see any verses on where unbelieving souls are destroyed.

Does these help?
Leviticus 23:29, 30; Ezekiel 18:4; Matthew 10:28; Mark 3:4; Luke 6:9; John 12:25; Acts 3:23

Hell, according to Scripture, is a real place where the devil, his demons, and unbelievers will spend eternity in constant torment, as uncomfortable as this might make you feel for whatever reason. This is why we are called to evangelized. People who state otherwise are simply spreading a false gospel.

The Bible says the lake of fire, which is... the second death... is where the Devil is cast, along with Hades, Death, and people whose name is not in the book of life.

Can you clarify for me please.
Are you saying that you believe the lake of fire is a place of literal fire, and not the second death?
Do you believe hell, and death will be burned up, and tormented for eternity in a literal fire?

 

[CoreyD]

Greek Gehenna ... represents/symbolic of The fire of God's justice that will one day consume all evil and remove it once and for all. AMEN!!
Greek Tartarus -In Greek mythology, Tartarus is symbolic of a deep abyss that is used as a dungeon of torment and suffering for the wicked and as the prison for the Titans.

When God executes His final judgement (that of the wicked) it will be by eternal fire (fire that comes from Him - out of eternity) ... no doubt there will be suffering for those who are condemned to the 2nd death but their suffering is not for eternity.

The point is ... there is not a forever burning place.

The wages of sin is death not eternal burning.

1 Corinthians 15:26​

New International Version​

​

26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1 Corinthians 15&version=NIV
Death is the opposite of life ... exist or not exist. We aren't supposed to be confused about it.

Some will receive eternal life (live forever with the Lord) some will not.

John 5

28Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming when all who are in their graves will hear His voice 29and come out— those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

When one studies the Word of God some seem to miss the type and anti-type relationship (between the OT and the NT), I highly recommend a person gets an understanding of the typology that is used in the Word of God. It really is helpful understanding (especially difficult verses) and better understanding of biblical prophecy.

In the Bible, typology is a method of interpretation that focuses on people, events, and institutions in the Old Testament that point to a greater reality in the future.

Typology is used in the Old Testament, New Testament, and by Jesus.

Thank you.
I am glad you understand this.
Some persons seem to think God is like human that relish in and delight in the suffering of wicked people, and so they put their thinking, as God's thinking.

The scriptures however, shows that God does not even delight in anyone's death. Ezekiel 18:32
He even shows how he feels, by saying, through his son, that he is generous to all - giving sun and rain to both good and evil. Matthew 5:45
If God does not delight in the death of someone wicked, how much less would he delight in anyone being tortured eternally.
Jeremiah 7:31

They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Hinnom so they could burn their sons and daughters in the fire - something I never commanded, nor did it even enter My mind.

This is just another lie of Satan, to paint God as wicked - no better than those he dishes out justice to.

 

[HarleyER]

I appreciate how you used those scriptures.

There are a few questions, I'll like to ask on this.
What is the lake of fire?
What does it mean that death and hell are cast into thee lake of fire? Will those be punished with fire, forever?


Thanks. I have already read that, but there isn't anything there explaining how hell is cast into hell, if hell is Gehenna, the lake of fire, and Hades.

My question is, if hell is Gehenna, the lake of fire, and Hades, how do you explain hell being cast into hell?


I appreciate that, thanks.


Oh, okay.
It's good to know that you recognize that Revelation is given in symbolism.
So you do not see the lake of fire as literal fire then. That's cool.
So, we agree then that no one will be literally tormented in the lake of fire?
Also, the sea in Revelation 21:1, does not refer to the literal sea, nor does the heavens and the earth mentioned there, refer to the literal heavens and earth?


Does these help?
Leviticus 23:29, 30; Ezekiel 18:4; Matthew 10:28; Mark 3:4; Luke 6:9; John 12:25; Acts 3:23


The Bible says the lake of fire, which is... the second death... is where the Devil is cast, along with Hades, Death, and people whose name is not in the book of life.

Can you clarify for me please.
Are you saying that you believe the lake of fire is a place of literal fire, and not the second death?
Do you believe hell, and death will be burned up, and tormented for eternity in a literal fire?

There are a few questions, I'll like to ask on this.
What is the lake of fire?
What does it mean that death and hell are cast into thee lake of fire? Will those be punished with fire, forever?

No one knows what the lake of fire is. All we do know is that it is a terrible place reserved for the devil, his demons, and unbelievers. It is torment and fire. Beyond that, there is not enough information in Scripture to go beyond what is written.

Death and hell being tossed into the lake of fire are clearly a figurative expression in Revelation. Matthew 25 is much more clear as to who will be casted (devil, demons, unbelievers) and for how long (eternity).

My question is, if hell is Gehenna, the lake of fire, and Hades, how do you explain hell being cast into hell?

If your referring to Revelation 20:14-15 then, as explained above, it can only be explained through Matthew 25. If on the other hand you are wondering about the various titles of hell, Sheol, Gehenna, Hades, etc. then you're going to get wrapped around the axle trying to unpack this. This is one of the issues that theologians have tried to figure out for a very long time. It would best fit under Deut 29:29.

So you do not see the lake of fire as literal fire then. That's cool.
So, we agree then that no one will be literally tormented in the lake of fire?

I did not say that the lake of fire is not a literal fire. I've been very clear that it is. Matthew 25:31-46 is very precise in its language and descripture as to what the lake of fire is.

Matt 25:46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

There is no abiguity in the above statement. Unbelievers go into eternal punishment. Righteous into eternal life. One may quibble as to what "eternal punishment" means, but we know that it is eternal (just like eternal life) and that it is punishment.

Can you clarify for me please.
Are you saying that you believe the lake of fire is a place of literal fire, and not the second death?
Do you believe hell, and death will be burned up, and tormented for eternity in a literal fire?

I believe Matt 25. Now is hell and death something different than the lake of fire, that is an interesting question. But whatever the case, it doesn't matter. The end result is the lake of fire for the devil, demons, and unbelievers. So whatever hell, Sheol, Gehanna, etc. are, the end result will be the lake of fire and eternal punishment.

 

[ozso]

I'd appreciate a credible source where this is found, thanks. So long as the link is not from a religious source.
Also, if you can also show where the Hebrew word Sheol, is in its early stage translated 'hel', I would appreciate that as well. Thanks.

Hell - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[CoreyD]

No one knows what the lake of fire is. All we do know is that it is a terrible place reserved for the devil, his demons, and unbelievers. It is torment and fire. Beyond that, there is not enough information in Scripture to go beyond what is written.

I agree we should go with what is written.
What is written, is this:
Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death - the lake of fire. Revelation 20:14
The angel that was speaking with John, reveals what the lake of fire is. It is the second death, he says.
Do you accept that the lake of fire is the second death?

Death and hell being tossed into the lake of fire are clearly a figurative expression in Revelation. Matthew 25 is much more clear as to who will be casted (devil, demons, unbelievers) and for how long (eternity).

Good, So the lake of fire being figurative, is not literal fire, but represents the second death, and since death and hell are cast there, death and hell are not literally burning forever, but just as fire destroys permanently, what is thrown into it, death and hell are gone forever.
Do you agree?

If your referring to Revelation 20:14-15 then, as explained above, it can only be explained through Matthew 25. If on the other hand you are wondering about the various titles of hell, Sheol, Gehenna, Hades, etc. then you're going to get wrapped around the axle trying to unpack this. This is one of the issues that theologians have tried to figure out for a very long time. It would best fit under Deut 29:29.

You didn't seem "wrapped around the axle".
You answered my questions as if they were first grade questions.

• Do you believe Hades and Gehenna are the same thing? (Yes)
• Do you believe Gehenna and the lake of fire (Revelation 20:14, 15) are the same thing? (Yes)

Remember?
So, without scratching your head, you said, Hades, Gehenna, and the lake of fire are the same thing.
Provided that this was not a mistake, you are saying that Revelation 20:14, actually says Hades (hell), is cast into the lake of fire - Gehenna (hell).
How do you explain that, is my question?

I did not say that the lake of fire is not a literal fire. I've been very clear that it is. Matthew 25:31-46 is very precise in its language and descripture as to what the lake of fire is.

You did say,

No, I would not agree. I have yet to find ANYONE who can interpret Revelation and make sense of it. I don't believe in a literal interpretation of Revelation simply because I don't think some gigantic beast is going to arise with 10 horns.

What are you saying? Are you saying you only apply a literal interpretation when... ?

Matt 25:46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

There is no abiguity in the above statement. Unbelievers go into eternal punishment. Righteous into eternal life. One may quibble as to what "eternal punishment" means, but we know that it is eternal (just like eternal life) and that it is punishment.

As @ozso was saying to you, you took one scripture and used that one scripture, against scores, to come to a conclusion that is no necessarily what the scriptures are saying.
From Genesis and Adam, to Revelation and John, death was the result of disobedience.
There is no ambiguity there.

What I would like to get clear, which at the moment isn't clear, is mentioned above.
I hope I can get that cleared. That might help with the subject of the OP.

I believe Matt 25. Now is hell and death something different than the lake of fire, that is an interesting question.

That is not what I am asking.
It's obvious that Hades and death are something different.
I don't see why would one would think otherwise.

But whatever the case, it doesn't matter.

No, it does matter.
Why would one conclude that what is written in Revelation, does not matter?
Revelation 1:3

Blessed is the one reading, and those hearing the words of the prophecy, and keeping the things having been written in it; for the time is near.

Revelation 22:7

"And behold, I am coming quickly. Blessed is the one keeping the words of the prophecy of this book."

What is written in this prophecy is very important, according to John.

The end result is the lake of fire for the devil, demons, and unbelievers. So whatever hell, Sheol, Gehanna, etc. are, the end result will be the lake of fire and eternal punishment.

Whatever hell, Sheol, Gehanna, etc. are...?

Allow me please, to ask you this:
If Sheol and Hades are the grave, from which the dead come out at resurrection, is the end result the lake of fire and eternal punishment?
I'll answer. Let me know if you agree.
The answer is No, because those who are resurrected when Hades, death, and the sea, empties of the dead, they will not be cast into Gehenna, or the lake of fire... unless their name is not found in the book of life.

If the lake of fire is (represents) the second death, as it does, according to the angel sent by Jesus, is the end result eternal punishment?
No, because death is the end of whatever experiences death.

 

[CoreyD]

Hell - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Thank you.
This is all I need.
The modern English word hell is derived from Old English hel, helle (first attested around 725 AD to refer to a nether world of the dead) reaching into the Anglo-Saxon pagan period.

So, the KJV has used a word from mythology,
Now a whole host of people are confused.

 

[ozso]

Thank you.
This is all I need.
The modern English word hell is derived from Old English hel, helle (first attested around 725 AD to refer to a nether world of the dead) reaching into the Anglo-Saxon pagan period.

So, the KJV has used a word from mythology,
Now a whole host of people are confused.

Hades and Tartarus are from mythology too.

 

[Adventist Heretic]

It is a dungeon, a jail cell, a chamber of Darkness. Those that go there are unconscious.

2 Peter 2:4
For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment;

Jude 1:6
And the angels who did not stay within their own domain but abandoned their proper dwelling--these He has kept in eternal chains under darkness, bound for judgment on that great day.

 

[HarleyER]

I agree we should go with what is written.
What is written, is this:
Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death - the lake of fire. Revelation 20:14
The angel that was speaking with John, reveals what the lake of fire is. It is the second death, he says.
Do you accept that the lake of fire is the second death?


Good, So the lake of fire being figurative, is not literal fire, but represents the second death, and since death and hell are cast there, death and hell are not literally burning forever, but just as fire destroys permanently, what is thrown into it, death and hell are gone forever.
Do you agree?


You didn't seem "wrapped around the axle".
You answered my questions as if they were first grade questions.

• Do you believe Hades and Gehenna are the same thing? (Yes)
• Do you believe Gehenna and the lake of fire (Revelation 20:14, 15) are the same thing? (Yes)

Remember?
So, without scratching your head, you said, Hades, Gehenna, and the lake of fire are the same thing.
Provided that this was not a mistake, you are saying that Revelation 20:14, actually says Hades (hell), is cast into the lake of fire - Gehenna (hell).
How do you explain that, is my question?


You did say,

What are you saying? Are you saying you only apply a literal interpretation when... ?


As @ozso was saying to you, you took one scripture and used that one scripture, against scores, to come to a conclusion that is no necessarily what the scriptures are saying.
From Genesis and Adam, to Revelation and John, death was the result of disobedience.
There is no ambiguity there.

What I would like to get clear, which at the moment isn't clear, is mentioned above.
I hope I can get that cleared. That might help with the subject of the OP.


That is not what I am asking.
It's obvious that Hades and death are something different.
I don't see why would one would think otherwise.


No, it does matter.
Why would one conclude that what is written in Revelation, does not matter?
Revelation 1:3


Revelation 22:7


What is written in this prophecy is very important, according to John.


Whatever hell, Sheol, Gehanna, etc. are...?

Allow me please, to ask you this:
If Sheol and Hades are the grave, from which the dead come out at resurrection, is the end result the lake of fire and eternal punishment?
I'll answer. Let me know if you agree.
The answer is No, because those who are resurrected when Hades, death, and the sea, empties of the dead, they will not be cast into Gehenna, or the lake of fire... unless their name is not found in the book of life.

If the lake of fire is (represents) the second death, as it does, according to the angel sent by Jesus, is the end result eternal punishment?
No, because death is the end of whatever experiences death.

What is written, is this:
Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death - the lake of fire. Revelation 20:14

You missed the point of Matthew 25:31-46.

Good, So the lake of fire being figurative, is not literal fire, but represents the second death, and since death and hell are cast there,

That is not what I stated or what Matthew 25 states. The lake of fire is a literal place otherwise heaven isn't a literal place. Unbelievers are thrown into the lake of fire for eternity just like believers go to heaven for eternity. It is a comparison of what will happen at the end of the age.

You seem to be fixated on the ambiguous verses in Revelation 20 all the while ignoring the clearer text of Matthew 25. What's more, you want to change what I've clearly stated saying that I agree with you which is incorrect.

I would suggest a deeper study of Matthew 25:31-46.

 

[ViaCrucis]

The Bible employs a variety of terms, concepts, and kinds of language to describe what existence without redemption is like. A hyper-literalizing of that language is probably unhelpful, and it isn't how Christians, for the most part, have read Scripture. For example, Christ says that in Gehenna there is both complete darkness and fire. Literally speaking, that wouldn't make a lot of sense. He also says "the worm does not die", are their literal maggots in hell? This is language of a graveyard, a refuse dump--darkness, fire, maggots consuming a corpse. The place of death for the wicked is miserable, it is truly a place of death (not annihilation, or unconsciousness, but truly a place of death).

St. John employs the language of fire in the Apocalypse, speaking of the ultimate fate of the wicked is a burning lake, comprised of fire and sulfur. In the apocalyptic and figurative language John uses, the ultimate end of the wicked is also where death and hades are also cast into (how can death and hades be literally cast into a lake of fire?). St. John calls this "the second death", a sort of death-beyond-death.

St. Peter borrows the language of Greek myth, speaking of the Titan-prison of Tartarus.

Scripture is pointing toward something really bad, a condition and existence of death, of bleakness. It's the antithesis of the existence which God has purposed for His good creation, to heal and renew all things; that all things be redeemed and brought into the fullness of the light and love of Christ. That healing, renewal, resurrection, and good which God has in store for His good creation, which is found in Christ, is laid out for us in Scripture. The alternative is not that.

What does it mean to be un-healed creation? Un-redeemed humanity? What is life without life? It's not good. Is it God literally sending people to a torture chamber forever? Or is it just what it looks like when human beings continue on and on without hope, without healing, without life--as though they are walking and waking corpses. A miserable state, not because God tortures them (God loves all impartially); but because they have chosen to be little more than a machine, devoid of life, devoid of joy, devoid of the good that is found in knowing God. Is it a separation from God? Can anything ever truly be separate from God who fills all things, and about whom we read in the Psalms, "If I make my bed in She'ol, You are there"? Yet it is existence devoid of God, not because God is not there, or because He has ceased to be Himself--loving--but devoid of God because the life of God has been rejected, life in God has been rejected. It is death-beyond-death; a living death. Something we simply cannot comprehend, and which Holy Scripture speaks about in various ways to indicate that it is the antithesis to the healing and the whole of a redeemed and renewed creation, a world that has been restored to good life in Christ, and of which all who are in Christ are made partakers through resurrection and life everlasting.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[CoreyD]

You missed the point of Matthew 25:31-46.


That is not what I stated or what Matthew 25 states. The lake of fire is a literal place otherwise heaven isn't a literal place. Unbelievers are thrown into the lake of fire for eternity just like believers go to heaven for eternity. It is a comparison of what will happen at the end of the age.

You seem to be fixated on the ambiguous verses in Revelation 20 all the while ignoring the clearer text of Matthew 25. What's more, you want to change what I've clearly stated saying that I agree with you which is incorrect.

I would suggest a deeper study of Matthew 25:31-46.

If a deeper study of Matthew 25:31-46 involves preventing me from answering questions, and will cause me to just refer back to Matthew 25:31-46, I don't think that is a very good recommendation.

I like to answer people's questions, because, it not only shows that I understand the scriptures, and can explain, and use all of them and be consistent in what I say, but it shows I am interested in a two way dialog.

I did not miss the point of Matthew 25:31-46. I explained it when you asked.
It's more accurate to say, you believe if it's not the way you see it, then the person missed something.

I think if anything was missed, it would have to be where scriptures are not all considered and used together.

I'm curious though...
If someone has had a deep study of the Bible, how would you recommend they go about having a deeper study of Matthew 25:31-46?

 

[HarleyER]

If a deeper study of Matthew 25:31-46 involves preventing me from answering questions, and will cause me to just refer back to Matthew 25:31-46, I don't think that is a very good recommendation.

I like to answer people's questions, because, it not only shows that I understand the scriptures, and can explain, and use all of them and be consistent in what I say, but it shows I am interested in a two way dialog.

I did not miss the point of Matthew 25:31-46. I explained it when you asked.
It's more accurate to say, you believe if it's not the way you see it, then the person missed something.

I think if anything was missed, it would have to be where scriptures are not all considered and used together.

I'm curious though...
If someone has had a deep study of the Bible, how would you recommend they go about having a deeper study of Matthew 25:31-46?

I'm curious though...
If someone has had a deep study of the Bible, how would you recommend they go about having a deeper study of Matthew 25:31-46?

I'm not sure what you are asking. If someone already has a deep study of the Bible, then it should not be a problem to dive deeper into the Bible.

If they are investigating what happens after we die, there are plenty of Scriptures on that besides Revelation. I only used Matthew 25 as one source since it contrasts eternal life with eternal punishment.

 

[Jim Campbell]

Please describe and explain what hell is, using scriptures.
Thank you?

Edit:
All posts not having an explanation, description, and scripture, will be ignored... starting with @Clare73.
Thank you.

My primary text is Luke 16 which has a sermon directed to the Pharisees who derided, laughed at Jesus. God knows the hearts of men and how to deal with each fairly. So Jesus laid it on them. The rich man knew the poor man suffered, but had a cold heart like the Pharisees who sought to abuse and flaunt their wealth. Both rich and poor died under authority of the Law and the Prophets until John. The poor suffering man, buried, was taken by angels to where one of God's friends, Abraham, among others righteous by law standards, was in Paradise, a 'heaven' of at least 3 heavens, situated above the lowest terrible hot and dry place of torment set for housing people who were unrepentant sinners. The rich man was buried, his spirit and soul there below inside the earth. Those places were situated allowing a conversation between the rich man and Abraham while the poor man was comforted by Abraham. Please read the passage. So what about Paradise, is anyone held there? I think not at all. An empty park!

EPH 4:7 "But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)"

Jesus emptied Paradise, leading those people to heaven with him, there being no more need of housing the righteous lovers of God inside the earth below their graves. At death our soul and spirit also go to be where Jesus and Father God are, awaiting our bodily resurrection. What remains is a miserable Hell at the deepest depth of earth filled with fallen angels and unrighteous human souls and spirits while their bodies remain buried on the surface with few exceptions like with Enoch, Elijah, Melchisedec and Jesus. Eventually Hell and the graves will give up the lost captives to be judged, then thrown into the lake that burns of fire forever. Their "worm", the innermost spirit and soul and their resurrected bodies will never cease to exist there in great regret and punishment having witnessed at the judgement what they could have enjoyed by belief and faith in Jesus. Everyone keeps their choices held to their very ends living on Earth.

Need more reason to share the gospel of Christ?

 

[Gregory Thompson]

From my understanding, the theological defenition of "hell," is "a place without God." I would not want to live in a place like that. God is Love. In hell, there can be no love there without God's presence.

Amen?

The psalm indicates that God is even there, in the depths.

An alternate reading of the scripture sees the lake of fire as the presence of God.

Those who have been born again, can enjoy it.

Those who haven't, experience torment.

In terms of the outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth, another psalm gives a clue saying those who rely on idols become like them. Meaning, they cannot see, feel, hear, taste, or smell. Out of frustration they weep and bite at everything around them to feel "something"

So both happen concurrently, but God is still present .. they just are not able to be aware.

The absence of God theology, I couldn't locate that one.

 

[HarleyER]

The Bible employs a variety of terms, concepts, and kinds of language to describe what existence without redemption is like. A hyper-literalizing of that language is probably unhelpful, and it isn't how Christians, for the most part, have read Scripture. For example, Christ says that in Gehenna there is both complete darkness and fire. Literally speaking, that wouldn't make a lot of sense. He also says "the worm does not die", are their literal maggots in hell? This is language of a graveyard, a refuse dump--darkness, fire, maggots consuming a corpse. The place of death for the wicked is miserable, it is truly a place of death (not annihilation, or unconsciousness, but truly a place of death).

St. John employs the language of fire in the Apocalypse, speaking of the ultimate fate of the wicked is a burning lake, comprised of fire and sulfur. In the apocalyptic and figurative language John uses, the ultimate end of the wicked is also where death and hades are also cast into (how can death and hades be literally cast into a lake of fire?). St. John calls this "the second death", a sort of death-beyond-death.

St. Peter borrows the language of Greek myth, speaking of the Titan-prison of Tartarus.

Scripture is pointing toward something really bad, a condition and existence of death, of bleakness. It's the antithesis of the existence which God has purposed for His good creation, to heal and renew all things; that all things be redeemed and brought into the fullness of the light and love of Christ. That healing, renewal, resurrection, and good which God has in store for His good creation, which is found in Christ, is laid out for us in Scripture. The alternative is not that.

What does it mean to be un-healed creation? Un-redeemed humanity? What is life without life? It's not good. Is it God literally sending people to a torture chamber forever? Or is it just what it looks like when human beings continue on and on without hope, without healing, without life--as though they are walking and waking corpses. A miserable state, not because God tortures them (God loves all impartially); but because they have chosen to be little more than a machine, devoid of life, devoid of joy, devoid of the good that is found in knowing God. Is it a separation from God? Can anything ever truly be separate from God who fills all things, and about whom we read in the Psalms, "If I make my bed in She'ol, You are there"? Yet it is existence devoid of God, not because God is not there, or because He has ceased to be Himself--loving--but devoid of God because the life of God has been rejected, life in God has been rejected. It is death-beyond-death; a living death. Something we simply cannot comprehend, and which Holy Scripture speaks about in various ways to indicate that it is the antithesis to the healing and the whole of a redeemed and renewed creation, a world that has been restored to good life in Christ, and of which all who are in Christ are made partakers through resurrection and life everlasting.

-CryptoLutheran

I think that is an excellent and correct interpretation. What part Satan and demons will play is unclear, but I think you are absolutely correct.

 

[rturner76]

The psalm indicates that God is even there, in the depths.

An alternate reading of the scripture sees the lake of fire as the presence of God.

Those who have been born again, can enjoy it.

Those who haven't, experience torment.

In terms of the outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth, another psalm gives a clue saying those who rely on idols become like them. Meaning, they cannot see, feel, hear, taste, or smell. Out of frustration they weep and bite at everything around them to feel "something"

So both happen concurrently, but God is still present .. they just are not able to be aware.

The absence of God theology, I couldn't locate that one.

So when 2Thessalonians 1:9 says:
“These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,”

So, It is not that God is not present but he doesn't make himself known to them like in Paradise where God lives?

 

[Gregory Thompson]

So when 2Thessalonians 1:9 says:
“These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,”

So, It is not that God is not present but he doesn't make himself known to them like in Paradise where God lives?

In harmony with the verse you presented, I was remembering Luke 19:27.

"But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me.’"

"Away" is a relative idea in a reality where God is "all and in all."

It's like with newer Christians, they think God has abandoned them, but sin is covering their means of perceiving God.