Faith is Not Works, But Its Not called Libertarian Free-Will Either

[Paleouss]

There are some that say that including faith in the salvation process makes it work based, a theology in which I wholeheartedly disagree. However, there are also those that would tell us that the term “free-will” should be inserted into the salvation process, a theology in which I wholeheartedly disagree with as well.

Some might be confused as to where I stand if I say that faith is not works and also say the concept of libertarian free-will has no place in the salvation process. Let's start with libertarian free-will. The concept of libertarian free-will is akin to the concept of choosing rightly (IMO). The concept of libertarian free-will has descriptive words such as: choose, choice, option, alternative, possibility. None of these words are what the authors of the Bible have in mind when speaking of the salvation process of Grace, Blood, and Faith. Of course mankind has the capacity to choose one thing over another, this is evident. However, the emphasis within the salvation process does not put all its focus on any words such as “choosing” but on "faith", "belief", and "repentance". A minor distinction to some, I suppose. But one of great significance, imo.

On the other side we have faith, which is not a work. The concept of faith is best understood as relinquishing fully. It includes words like submission, yielding, capitulation, laying down, handing over, and abdicating. It is truly, as John Calvin would say, coming before the Lord “empty”. Empty of what? Empty of boasting and merit. One need only seek this truth within the Scripture. Scripture tells us that the proper approach to God is to submit (Jam 4:7) and deny yourself (Luke 9:23), be humbled (Isa 66:2), lowly of spirit (Pro 16:19, Pro 29:23), contrite of heart (Psa 51:17,Psa 34:18), and not puffed up (Hab 2:4). All these words that are presented as our proper approach to God imply an ‘emptiness’ of pride and boasting. All these words support John Calvin and his notion that man brings faith to the table of salvation and “faith, then, brings a man empty to God” (John Calvin).

Now, I am not on board with all of John Calvin's thoughts. However, in regard to his thoughts that both God and man have a part, found in his commentary of Ephesians 2:8-9. I am in agreement. If man brings only faith, it does not imply any form of work based salvation. On the contrary, it means that man’s part is to bring faith, which “brings a man empty to God”. Therefore, man has a part and that part does not suggest works. But it does suggest that mankind is responsible for this “coming to God empty”, i.e., in submission and lowliness.

What do you think? Is faith also works? And should we focus on free-will or faith?

Keep seeking God’s truth as if it were hidden treasure

 

[d taylor]

-
​

Faith /belief in Jesus is a passive work where a person has to believe in Jesus which is a one time belief that happens in a moment of time.

More than likely ones who define faith as a work, also define faith as obedience. Meaning that if you have real faith in Jesus then you will live a life in obedience to God

 

[Mark Quayle]

There are some that say that including faith in the salvation process makes it work based, a theology in which I wholeheartedly disagree. However, there are also those that would tell us that the term “free-will” should be inserted into the salvation process, a theology in which I wholeheartedly disagree with as well.

Some might be confused as to where I stand if I say that faith is not works and also say the concept of libertarian free-will has no place in the salvation process. Let's start with libertarian free-will. The concept of libertarian free-will is akin to the concept of choosing rightly (IMO). The concept of libertarian free-will has descriptive words such as: choose, choice, option, alternative, possibility. None of these words are what the authors of the Bible have in mind when speaking of the salvation process of Grace, Blood, and Faith. Of course mankind has the capacity to choose one thing over another, this is evident. However, the emphasis within the salvation process does not put all its focus on any words such as “choosing” but on "faith", "belief", and "repentance". A minor distinction to some, I suppose. But one of great significance, imo.

On the other side we have faith, which is not a work. The concept of faith is best understood as relinquishing fully. It includes words like submission, yielding, capitulation, laying down, handing over, and abdicating. It is truly, as John Calvin would say, coming before the Lord “empty”. Empty of what? Empty of boasting and merit. One need only seek this truth within the Scripture. Scripture tells us that the proper approach to God is to submit (Jam 4:7) and deny yourself (Luke 9:23), be humbled (Isa 66:2), lowly of spirit (Pro 16:19, Pro 29:23), contrite of heart (Psa 51:17,Psa 34:18), and not puffed up (Hab 2:4). All these words that are presented as our proper approach to God imply an ‘emptiness’ of pride and boasting. All these words support John Calvin and his notion that man brings faith to the table of salvation and “faith, then, brings a man empty to God” (John Calvin).

Now, I am not on board with all of John Calvin's thoughts. However, in regard to his thoughts that both God and man have a part, found in his commentary of Ephesians 2:8-9. I am in agreement. If man brings only faith, it does not imply any form of work based salvation. On the contrary, it means that man’s part is to bring faith, which “brings a man empty to God”. Therefore, man has a part and that part does not suggest works. But it does suggest that mankind is responsible for this “coming to God empty”, i.e., in submission and lowliness.

What do you think? Is faith also works? And should we focus on free-will or faith?

Keep seeking God’s truth as if it were hidden treasure

Is natural man, according to Eph 2 and Rom 8, capable of that faith, or does God have to change him first?

 

[Clare73]

There are some that say that including faith in the salvation process makes it work based, a theology in which I wholeheartedly disagree. However, there are also those that would tell us that the term “free-will” should be inserted into the salvation process, a theology in which I wholeheartedly disagree with as well.
Some might be confused as to where I stand if I say that faith is not works and also say the concept of libertarian free-will has no place in the salvation process. Let's start with libertarian free-will. The concept of libertarian free-will is akin to the concept of choosing rightly (IMO). The concept of libertarian free-will has descriptive words such as: choose, choice, option, alternative, possibility. None of these words are what the authors of the Bible have in mind when speaking of the salvation process of Grace, Blood, and Faith. Of course mankind has the capacity to choose one thing over another, this is evident. However, the emphasis within the salvation process does not put all its focus on any words such as “choosing” but on "faith", "belief", and "repentance". A minor distinction to some, I suppose. But one of great significance, imo.
On the other side we have faith, which is not a work. The concept of faith is best understood as relinquishing fully. It includes words like submission, yielding, capitulation, laying down, handing over, and abdicating. It is truly, as John Calvin would say, coming before the Lord “empty”. Empty of what? Empty of boasting and merit. One need only seek this truth within the Scripture. Scripture tells us that the proper approach to God is to submit (Jam 4:7) and deny yourself (Luke 9:23), be humbled (Isa 66:2), lowly of spirit (Pro 16:19, Pro 29:23), contrite of heart (Psa 51:17,Psa 34:18), and not puffed up (Hab 2:4). All these words that are presented as our proper approach to God imply an ‘emptiness’ of pride and boasting. All these words support John Calvin and his notion that man brings faith to the table of salvation and “faith, then, brings a man empty to God” (John Calvin).

Now, I am not on board with all of John Calvin's thoughts. However, in regard to his thoughts that both God and man have a part, found in his commentary of Ephesians 2:8-9. I am in agreement. If man brings only faith, it does not imply any form of work based salvation. On the contrary, it means that man’s part is to bring faith, which “brings a man empty to God”. Therefore, man has a part and that part does not suggest works. But it does suggest that mankind is responsible for this “coming to God empty”, i.e., in submission and lowliness.
What do you think? Is faith also works?

Faith is not also works, it is a gift of God (Php 1:29, 2 Pe 1:1, Ac 13:48, 18:27, Ro 12:3),
as is the sovereign new birth (Jn 3:3-5) by the Holy Spirit, who is as unaccountable as the wind (Jn 3:6-8).
Neither is something we achieve nor make happen.

And should we focus on free-will or faith?

Let's look at free will as we see it in the Bible, where
Free will is the power to choose, without external force or constraint, what one prefers.

But freewill does not operate in a vacuum.
It is governed by the disposition.
And therein is the rub, for unregenerate man's disposition prefers self over God.
So unregenerate man will always choose self-will over God's will.

Therefore, unregenerate man has to be born again in order
first, to be able to see (know the meaning of) the kingdom of God (Jn 3:3-8), and
second, to have the ability/power to believe it and choose it.

So if it's about "free will," unregenerate man will never choose the kingdom of God because he does not prefer God's will over his own will.
It is done only by the gift of faith (Php 1:29, 2 Pe 1:1, Ac 1348, 18:27, Ro 12:3), which gives him to believe and love God's word.

 

[eleos1954]

There are some that say that including faith in the salvation process makes it work based, a theology in which I wholeheartedly disagree. However, there are also those that would tell us that the term “free-will” should be inserted into the salvation process, a theology in which I wholeheartedly disagree with as well.

Some might be confused as to where I stand if I say that faith is not works and also say the concept of libertarian free-will has no place in the salvation process. Let's start with libertarian free-will. The concept of libertarian free-will is akin to the concept of choosing rightly (IMO). The concept of libertarian free-will has descriptive words such as: choose, choice, option, alternative, possibility. None of these words are what the authors of the Bible have in mind when speaking of the salvation process of Grace, Blood, and Faith. Of course mankind has the capacity to choose one thing over another, this is evident. However, the emphasis within the salvation process does not put all its focus on any words such as “choosing” but on "faith", "belief", and "repentance". A minor distinction to some, I suppose. But one of great significance, imo.

On the other side we have faith, which is not a work. The concept of faith is best understood as relinquishing fully. It includes words like submission, yielding, capitulation, laying down, handing over, and abdicating. It is truly, as John Calvin would say, coming before the Lord “empty”. Empty of what? Empty of boasting and merit. One need only seek this truth within the Scripture. Scripture tells us that the proper approach to God is to submit (Jam 4:7) and deny yourself (Luke 9:23), be humbled (Isa 66:2), lowly of spirit (Pro 16:19, Pro 29:23), contrite of heart (Psa 51:17,Psa 34:18), and not puffed up (Hab 2:4). All these words that are presented as our proper approach to God imply an ‘emptiness’ of pride and boasting. All these words support John Calvin and his notion that man brings faith to the table of salvation and “faith, then, brings a man empty to God” (John Calvin).

Now, I am not on board with all of John Calvin's thoughts. However, in regard to his thoughts that both God and man have a part, found in his commentary of Ephesians 2:8-9. I am in agreement. If man brings only faith, it does not imply any form of work based salvation. On the contrary, it means that man’s part is to bring faith, which “brings a man empty to God”. Therefore, man has a part and that part does not suggest works. But it does suggest that mankind is responsible for this “coming to God empty”, i.e., in submission and lowliness.

What do you think? Is faith also works? And should we focus on free-will or faith?

Keep seeking God’s truth as if it were hidden treasure

If we have faith ... we will have works. Faith comes from Jesus

The Bible tells us that faith has a source, and it isn't us. Hebrews 12 says that Jesus is the author of our faith. In 2 Peter 1:1 we read, “To those who have been allotted faith equally precious as ours in the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ.” We are allotted faith in Jesus. It is given to us by God.

When one truly accepts Jesus as their Lord and savior ... they are to willingly surrender their free will to Him ... that is ... His will becomes our will ... but it is not forced by Him.

Surrender involves trusting God: It involves trusting that God's way is better than your way and that His plans are better than anything you could come up with.

We are to willingly surrender to Christ daily ... but it's not a forced thing.

God loves us supremely so there isn't a problem with one surrendering to His magnificent love .. how can surrendering to the one who truly and supremely loves you be a bad thing? Love can not be forced ... neither can surrendering to Him in love. Free will stays in tact always ... true Love requires it.

 

[Paleouss]

Is natural man, according to Eph 2 and Rom 8, capable of that faith, or does God have to change him first?

Hi Mark, many blessing to you.

I'd like to emphasize that the main objectives of the OP is the question: Is faith considered works. To be more clear, I'm not asking if faith in conjunction with the Spirit leads to "good works" (or what I call fruitful works). But is the concept of 'faith' within the Scriptures considered works based, as in does it include merit and boasting? John Calvin seems to consider faith free of merit and boasting.

Peace be with you my brother

 

[Paleouss]

Faith is not also works, it is a gift of God (Php 1:29, 2 Pe 1:1, Ac 13:48, 18:27, Ro 12:3),

Hi Clare, hope your week has started out well.

You wrote, "Faith is not also works". Thank you for your response.

You then say faith is "a gift of God". Of course one could mean a verity of things here. So unpacking it would be needed for an in depth discussion. Which might stray too far from the OP. I am interested in what you think about what John Calvin wrote regarding Eph 2:8-9, below.

And here we must advert to a very common error in the interpretation of this passage. Many persons restrict the word gift to faith alone. But Paul is only repeating in other words the former sentiment. His meaning is, not that faith is the gift of God, but that salvation is given to us by God, or, that we obtain it by the gift of God. -- John Calvin Commentaries, Eph 2:8-9

I'm assuming you disagree with John Calvin when he says it is a mistake to read that Eph 2:8-9 is saying that "faith is the gift of God". Or, maybe you agree with Calvin because I don't see Eph in the proof text in your above quote.

Regarding your proof text that you give that faith's part in salvation is a gift of God. I accept 2Pet 1:1 as a good proof text, for me. The others are questionable, imo. Rom 12:3 is speaking to only Christians, post salvation faith, regarding spiritual gifts. Acts 13:48, is saying that those appointed to eternal life are those that believed. The gap between 'appointed to eternal life' (which can be associated with a gift) and then 'are those that believed' is to far to properly address that faith (belief) is then a gift (at least for me). Phil 1:29 doesn't seem to speak to faith being given either. It could just as well mean that grace has allowed one to be able to believe or not. Not many believe faith comes before grace. Although I grant some might.

Peace be with you my brother

 

[Paleouss]

If we have faith ... we will have works. Faith comes from Jesus

Greetings eleos,

In my OP, I was inquiring into whether the concept of "faith" within scripture should be equated with the concept of "works." That is, does the concept of "faith" carry with it the concepts of "merit" and "boasting".

I am not asking about whether "good works" follow from an "active faith".

Hebrews 12 says that Jesus is the author of our faith.

So are you saying faith is not works, it is given by God? And could you please provide a little more pinpoint of where in Heb 12 it says Jesus is the author of our faith. Thank you.


Peace to you my brother

 

[Clare73]

Hi Clare, hope your week has started out well.
You wrote, "Faith is not also works". Thank you for your response.

You then say faith is "a gift of God". Of course one could mean a verity of things here. So unpacking it would be needed for an in depth discussion. Which might stray too far from the OP. I am interested in what you think about what John Calvin wrote regarding Eph 2:8-9, below.
I'm assuming you disagree with John Calvin when he says it is a mistake to read that Eph 2:8-9 is saying that "faith is the gift of God". Or, maybe you agree with Calvin because I don't see Eph in the proof text in your above quote.

In Eph 2:8-9, it is salvation that is the gift of God, and
in Php 1:29, etc. it is faith that is the gift of God,
keeping in mind that salvation is a gift of God because it is by faith, which is likewise a gift of God.

Regarding your proof text that you give that faith's part in salvation is a gift of God. I accept 2Pet 1:1 as a good proof text, for me. The others are questionable, imo. Rom 12:3 is speaking to only Christians, post salvation faith, regarding spiritual gifts. Acts 13:48, is saying that those appointed to eternal life are those that believed. The gap between 'appointed to eternal life' (which can be associated with a gift) and then 'are those that believed' is to far to properly address that faith (belief) is then a gift (at least for me). Phil 1:29 doesn't seem to speak to faith being given either. It could just as well mean that grace has allowed one to be able to believe or not. Not many believe faith comes before grace. Although I grant some might.
Peace be with you my brother

2 Pe 1:1 being a good proof text establishes the fact, thereby making the meaning of all the other texts clear.

 

[eleos1954]

Greetings eleos,

In my OP, I was inquiring into whether the concept of "faith" within scripture should be equated with the concept of "works." That is, does the concept of "faith" carry with it the concepts of "merit" and "boasting".

I am not asking about whether "good works" follow from an "active faith".

So are you saying faith is not works, it is given by God? And could you please provide a little more pinpoint of where in Heb 12 it says Jesus is the author of our faith. Thank you.


Peace to you my brother

Faith is not a work.

Faith is the avenue or the instrument God uses to bring salvation to His people. God gives faith (as a gift) because of His grace and mercy, because He loves us (Ephesians 4—5). Faith comes from God in the form of a gift (Ephesians 2:8).

A gift is not earned by some good deed or kind word, and it is not given because the giver expects a gift in return—under any of those conditions, a gift would not be a gift. The Bible emphasizes that faith is a gift because God deserves all of the glory for our salvation. If the receiver of faith could do anything whatsoever to deserve or earn the gift, that person would have every right to boast (Ephesians 2:9). But all such boasting is excluded (Romans 3:27).

God wants Christians to understand they have done nothing to earn faith, it’s only because of what Christ did on the cross that God gives anyone faith (Ephesians 2:5, 16). Receiving faith is a non-work

Jesus is a gift from God, and that his sacrifice made salvation possible:

John 3:16, which says, "For God so loved the world that He gave (a gift) His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life".

Ephesians 2:8-10 (clearly states faith is NOT a work)

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Hebrews 12:2

New King James Version
2 looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

God gives gifts ... one either accepts those gifts or not ... accepting a gift is not a work.

Faith is an integral part of the gift His grace bestowed on us. Scripture consistently teaches that faith is not conjured up by the human will but is a sovereignly granted gift of God. Jesus said, “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him” (John 6:44).​

 

[bling]

We sometimes throughout the Biblical definition of "work" and use modern physics' definitions. Work was what you could not do on a Sabbath, but that does not mean you could not do a lot of stuff which is not work. Faith is not a work.

 

[Clare73]

We sometimes throughout the Biblical definition of "work" and use modern physics' definitions. Work was what you could not do on a Sabbath, but that does not mean you could not do a lot of stuff which is not work. Faith is not a work.

Biblically, work is the physical effort of man.
Prayer is not work, faith is not work, worship is not work.
Some work was allowed on the Sabbath.

 

[bling]

Biblically, work is the physical effort of man.
Prayer is not work, faith is not work, worship is not work.
Some work was allowed on the Sabbath.

There was a lot of "Physical efforts done by man on the Sabbath, but worship is not "work" as you say. So what is worship in scripture?

 

[Mark Quayle]

Hi Mark, many blessing to you.

I'd like to emphasize that the main objectives of the OP is the question: Is faith considered works. To be more clear, I'm not asking if faith in conjunction with the Spirit leads to "good works" (or what I call fruitful works). But is the concept of 'faith' within the Scriptures considered works based, as in does it include merit and boasting? John Calvin seems to consider faith free of merit and boasting.

Peace be with you my brother

I understand that. My post was intended to lead to the conclusion that salvific faith is not a [human] creature's work, because it is not of human derivation. It is God-made —that is to say: It is generated by the Spirit of God within the person.

 

[Clare73]

There was a lot of "Physical efforts done by man on the Sabbath, but worship is not "work" as you say. So what is worship in scripture?

You tell me. . .

 

[Mark Quayle]

There was a lot of "Physical efforts done by man on the Sabbath, but worship is not "work" as you say. So what is worship in scripture?

Spiritual Service

 

[Paleouss]

In Eph 2:8-9, it is salvation that is the gift of God, and
in Php 1:29, etc. it is faith that is the gift of God,
keeping in mind that salvation is a gift of God because it is by faith, which is likewise a gift of God.

Thank you for your last post. I decided to focus on your quote above. Just saying I'm not trying to ignore your other comments.

I also think John Calvin is correct on his commentary of Eph 2:8-9. Although, I understand that there are even some Calvinists that disagree with Calvin's analysis of Eph 2:8-9.

I wanted to focus on the formulation of...

(1) Salvation is a gift (Eph 2:8-9)
(2) Salvation comes by grace, blood, and faith
(3) Therefore grace, blood, and faith is a gift.

Regarding Eph 2:8-9, Calvin says about Paul,

"First, he asserts, that the salvation of the Ephesians was entirely the work, the gracious work of God. But then they had obtained this grace by faith". -- John Calvin

Calvin says that Eph 2:8-9 starts out saying 'salvation' was entirely the gracious work of God. However, Calvin then writes... "But then...". This sounds like a turn of thought by Calvin. Calvin appears to say, Paul is saying, salvation is a gift of God, "but then" (the turn of thought) he suggests, there is man's part.

Now, I think that it is clear that Calvin would never suggest that any part of salvation included the merit or works of the sinner. For there can be no boasting by man in his salvation. However, it does seem to be the case that John Calvin thinks that man has a part. At least according to his reading of Paul. For he goes on to right...

"On one side, we must look at God; and, on the other, at man." -- John Calvin

Calvin clearly is saying there are two sides of this salvation conversation within Eph 2:8-9. Those two "sides" are "God" and "man". One might instantly think, what? Man can play no part, for salvation is a gift and not a work. If man plays any part, someone might say, then it is not all from God. Therefore, one might claim that saying man plays a part would immediately suggest that faith is works based salvation.

I don't think we have to provide support on the notion that Calvin thinks salvation is a gift from God. But in regard a statement like, "God gives salvation faith" , I think this can be misleading to many, imo. Especially for those that don't have a grasp on traditional theology. To the casual person, this seems to imply that man has no part. Something Calvin, here in Eph 2:8-9, seems to disagree with, that is that man plays no part.

The next question is, in what way do men receive that salvation which is offered to them by the hand of God? The answer is, by faith; and hence he concludes that nothing connected with it is our own. If, on the part of God, it is grace alone, and if we bring nothing but faith, which strips us of all commendation, it follows that salvation does not come from us. -- John Calvin

Calvin writes, above, that "if we bring" (man's part) "nothing but faith" it then follows that "salvation does not come from us". Now wait a minute, one might say, if 'we' bring faith (man having a part) then how is salvation not a works based theology? It would seem that one might claim, how can it be all God if man has any part to "bring" anything?

But Calvin goes on to explain that if we look at man and he brings only faith then that is not works based theology. Therefore there is no merit or boasting.

"When, on the part of man, the act of receiving salvation is made to consist in faith alone, all other means, on which men are accustomed to rely, are discarded. Faith, then, brings a man empty to God"

Now here is where it ties into my OP. What exactly is faith, if it brings one "empty to God"? Providing an answer, "Faith is a gift from God", would seem to miss the mark when looking at man (as Calvin does in Eph 2:8-9). Although one can unpack this statement "faith is a gift from God" to mean that salvation includes no meritorious works or boasting from the sinner, yet, it is a gift from God and the sinner is still free to choose that which he desires and brings only faith. Which most certainly is true. But the casual person doesn't know to unpack it this way. So, what is this faith thing, that man brings that makes him "empty"?

So when I am witnessing and someone says to me, "what is this faith"? Do we just say, "it is a gift from God"? Or do we, as Calvin does, say "On one side, we must look at God; and, on the other, at man"?

If, on the part of God, it is grace alone, and if we bring nothing but faith, which strips us of all commendation, it follows that salvation does not come from us. -- John Calvin

So faith is coming before God, "empty". And what approach to God does this faith look like? Scripture tells us that the proper approach to God is to submit (Jam 4:7) and deny yourself (Luke 9:23), be humbled (Isa 66:2), lowly of spirit (Pro 16:19, Pro 29:23), contrite of heart (Psa 51:17,Psa 34:18), and not puffed up (Hab 2:4).

Thank you for your time
Keep seeking God's truth as if it were hidden treasure

 

[Paleouss]

Faith is the avenue or the instrument God uses to bring salvation to His people. God gives faith (as a gift) because of His grace and mercy, because He loves us (Ephesians 4—5). Faith comes from God in the form of a gift (Ephesians 2:8).

Greetings eleos, peace be to you and yours. Thank you for your words and Heb verse.

I do have one question. In your use of Ephesians 2:8 as text for faith being a gift from God. Do you disagree with John Calvin in his Eph 2:8-9 commentary?

And here we must advert to a very common error in the interpretation of this passage. Many persons restrict the word gift to faith alone. But Paul is only repeating in other words the former sentiment. His meaning is, not that faith is the gift of God, but that salvation is given to us by God, or, that we obtain it by the gift of God. -- John Calvin Commentaries, Eph 2:8-9

Thanks again
Christ has risen

 

[eleos1954]

Greetings eleos, peace be to you and yours. Thank you for your words and Heb verse.

I do have one question. In your use of Ephesians 2:8 as text for faith being a gift from God. Do you disagree with John Calvin in his Eph 2:8-9 commentary?


Thanks again
Christ has risen

You would need to post the actual commentary for me to respond.

 

[bling]

You tell me. . .

Van worship is offering up to God obedience to the commandments of man. From the OT and NT examples I would say: Worship is offering up to God obedience to His commands. I see Jesus, worshipping 24/7 and we could do the same.