As all the dead in Hades rise on Judgment Day, why is Luke 16:19-31 cited as proof of eternal torment?

[Alfred-Persson]

In Christ's prophecy/parable the Pharisees would not believe the risen Lazarus (John 12:9-11) and therefore, contrary to their belief Abraham would prevent them from descending into Hades, a child of Abraham is depicted as paying the penalty for his sin. The conversation he has with Abraham lasts only a minute. Nothing is said to be eternal. We know all in Hades come out on Judgment Day. So how is it believers cite this as proof for eternal torment? Rather, it fits the 1st century apostolic concept of hades as a place where souls can repent and live according to God (1 Pet. 4:6):

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev. 20:11-15 NKJ)


24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
25 "Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.
26 "For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself,
27 "and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.
28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. (Jn. 5:24-29 NKJ)


22 “So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.
23 “And being in torments (931 βάσανος basanos) in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 “Then he cried and said, `Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented (3600 ὀδυνάω odunao) in this flame (5395 φλόξ phlox).’
25 “But Abraham said, `Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted (3870 παρακαλέω parakaleo) and you are tormented (3600 ὀδυνάω odunao). (Lk. 16:22-25 NKJ)

The Rich Man does not act like someone who is irreedemably wicked and is suffering Eternal Torment. So how can Bible Believers cite this as proof of eternal torment?

1)His demeanor is not that of a wicked eternally condemned man, he does not blaspheme either Abraham, Lazarus or God even when he doesn’t get what he asked for.
2)Abraham calls him “son…child” displaying affection which implies the rich man is not irredeemably wicked.
3)Both Abraham and many redeemed with him WANT to cross over into Hades to lessen the torment of the rich man. That would be rebellion against God’s Judgment and therefore implies the rich man ultimately would be saved.
4)The symbolic language implies a “torment” with a goal beyond retributive justice:

If the “torment” (3600 ὀδυνάω odunao) is the classic idea of hell-fire, the Rich Man would ask for a lot more than a little water to cool his tongue. Odunao here refers to mental anguish (Luke 2:48; 16:25; Acts 20:38). Its antithesis is parakaleo ‘to be consoled for sorrow’ like Lazarus (Lk. 16:25).

Christ chose the word “torment” (931 βάσανος basanos) to describe the Torment in Hades:

Meaning: 1) a touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal 2) the rack or instrument of torture by which one is forced to divulge the truth.-Strong’s Concordance



This “torment” is the kind that brings truth to the surface, resulting in “anguish” and “sorrow” (3600 ὀδυνάω odunao cp. Acts 20:38) for sin. The imagery of purging from sin is common in the Old Testament (Zech. 13:9; Ps. 51:7; 66:10; Isa. 1:25; 4:4; 6:7; 48:10; Ezek. 24:13; Dan. 11:35):

2 “But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner’s fire And like launderer’s soap.
3 He will sit as a refiner and a purifier of silver; He will purify the sons of Levi, And purge them as gold and silver, That they may offer to the LORD An offering in righteousness. (Mal. 3:2-3 NKJ)

In Luke 16:24 the “flame” (5395 φλόξ phlox) causes the “agony” or “anguish” (3600 ὀδυνάω odunao). The Rich Man is being purged (Mal. 3:3; Job 23:10; Zech. 13:9 cp. 1 Pet. 1:7) by the “flame of God’s inspection”: “His eyes like a flame” (Rev. 1:14; 2:18; 19:12). The “flame” is the “visible aspect of a fire that springs upward and is usually orange”(Logos Bible Sense Lexicon). God is revealed in the “flame” (Ex. 3:2; Judges 13:20; Isa. 66:15 LXX; Acts 7:30; 2 Thess. 1:8).

From all this one could reasonably infer the “torments of Hades” are designed to bring the true person to the surface, liberate their free will from all bondage to sin and delusion. After suffering for their sins “judged according to men in the flesh”, if they choose to believe the gospel preached to them in Hades they will “live according to God in the Spirit” apart from any torment, eagerly waiting for the Second Coming of Christ when they will rise with the dead in Christ.

23 It was necessary therefore that the copies of the things in the heavens should be cleansed with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
24 For Christ hasn't entered into holy places made with hands, which are representations of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;
25 nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest enters into the holy place year by year with blood not his own,
26 or else he must have suffered often since the foundation of the world. But now once at the end of the ages, he has been revealed to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
27 Inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once, and after this, judgment,
28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, without sin, to those who are eagerly waiting for him for salvation. (Heb. 9:23-28 RPTE)

 

[Offline4Better.]

In Christ's prophecy/parable the Pharisees would not believe the risen Lazarus (John 12:9-11) and therefore, contrary to their belief Abraham would prevent them from descending into Hades, a child of Abraham is depicted as paying the penalty for his sin. The conversation he has with Abraham lasts only a minute. Nothing is said to be eternal. We know all in Hades come out on Judgment Day. So how is it believers cite this as proof for eternal torment? Rather, it fits the 1st century apostolic concept of hades as a place where souls can repent and live according to God (1 Pet. 4:6):

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev. 20:11-15 NKJ)


24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
25 "Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.
26 "For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself,
27 "and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.
28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. (Jn. 5:24-29 NKJ)


22 “So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.
23 “And being in torments (931 βάσανος basanos) in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 “Then he cried and said, `Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented (3600 ὀδυνάω odunao) in this flame (5395 φλόξ phlox).’
25 “But Abraham said, `Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted (3870 παρακαλέω parakaleo) and you are tormented (3600 ὀδυνάω odunao). (Lk. 16:22-25 NKJ)

The Rich Man does not act like someone who is irreedemably wicked and is suffering Eternal Torment. So how can Bible Believers cite this as proof of eternal torment?

1)His demeanor is not that of a wicked eternally condemned man, he does not blaspheme either Abraham, Lazarus or God even when he doesn’t get what he asked for.
2)Abraham calls him “son…child” displaying affection which implies the rich man is not irredeemably wicked.
3)Both Abraham and many redeemed with him WANT to cross over into Hades to lessen the torment of the rich man. That would be rebellion against God’s Judgment and therefore implies the rich man ultimately would be saved.
4)The symbolic language implies a “torment” with a goal beyond retributive justice:

If the “torment” (3600 ὀδυνάω odunao) is the classic idea of hell-fire, the Rich Man would ask for a lot more than a little water to cool his tongue. Odunao here refers to mental anguish (Luke 2:48; 16:25; Acts 20:38). Its antithesis is parakaleo ‘to be consoled for sorrow’ like Lazarus (Lk. 16:25).

Christ chose the word “torment” (931 βάσανος basanos) to describe the Torment in Hades:

Meaning: 1) a touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal 2) the rack or instrument of torture by which one is forced to divulge the truth.-Strong’s Concordance



This “torment” is the kind that brings truth to the surface, resulting in “anguish” and “sorrow” (3600 ὀδυνάω odunao cp. Acts 20:38) for sin. The imagery of purging from sin is common in the Old Testament (Zech. 13:9; Ps. 51:7; 66:10; Isa. 1:25; 4:4; 6:7; 48:10; Ezek. 24:13; Dan. 11:35):

2 “But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner’s fire And like launderer’s soap.
3 He will sit as a refiner and a purifier of silver; He will purify the sons of Levi, And purge them as gold and silver, That they may offer to the LORD An offering in righteousness. (Mal. 3:2-3 NKJ)

In Luke 16:24 the “flame” (5395 φλόξ phlox) causes the “agony” or “anguish” (3600 ὀδυνάω odunao). The Rich Man is being purged (Mal. 3:3; Job 23:10; Zech. 13:9 cp. 1 Pet. 1:7) by the “flame of God’s inspection”: “His eyes like a flame” (Rev. 1:14; 2:18; 19:12). The “flame” is the “visible aspect of a fire that springs upward and is usually orange”(Logos Bible Sense Lexicon). God is revealed in the “flame” (Ex. 3:2; Judges 13:20; Isa. 66:15 LXX; Acts 7:30; 2 Thess. 1:8).

From all this one could reasonably infer the “torments of Hades” are designed to bring the true person to the surface, liberate their free will from all bondage to sin and delusion. After suffering for their sins “judged according to men in the flesh”, if they choose to believe the gospel preached to them in Hades they will “live according to God in the Spirit” apart from any torment, eagerly waiting for the Second Coming of Christ when they will rise with the dead in Christ.

23 It was necessary therefore that the copies of the things in the heavens should be cleansed with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
24 For Christ hasn't entered into holy places made with hands, which are representations of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;
25 nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest enters into the holy place year by year with blood not his own,
26 or else he must have suffered often since the foundation of the world. But now once at the end of the ages, he has been revealed to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
27 Inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once, and after this, judgment,
28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, without sin, to those who are eagerly waiting for him for salvation. (Heb. 9:23-28 RPTE)

Just gonna say this: The Catholics have purgatory, a temporary place of torment to burn off the rest of our sins. Which denomination are you? It does not matter, but the Catholics and maybe a few other denominations believe in purgatory.

 

[Alfred-Persson]

Just gonna say this: The Catholics have purgatory, a temporary place of torment to burn off the rest of our sins. Which denomination are you? It does not matter, but the Catholics and maybe a few other denominations believe in purgatory.

Purgatory evolved from the NT concept of Hades. Unlike Hades in the Bible where all the dead go, purgatory is only for dues paying Catholics in good standing.

Over time, as Israeli Jews who knew what Jesus taught vanished from the Gentile Church, it became confused about Hades and it morphed into purgatory for Catholics. Everyone else was doomed.

The NT concept of Hades is like a "purgatory for all who died unsaved but did not commit eternal sins". The "torments" are designed not just to punish for sin, but to purge the soul of all delusion and slavery to sin.

For example, Christ said all in the grave will hear His voice. Is there anyone in Hades whose body isn't in the grave? Of course not. So Christ says all in Hades will hear His voice, and those who "obediently hear" (John 5:24) will live:

25 "Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.
...

28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. (Jn. 5:28-29 NKJ)

 

[Offline4Better.]

Purgatory evolved from the NT concept of Hades. Unlike Hades in the Bible where all the dead go, purgatory is only for dues paying Catholics in good standing.

Over time, as Israeli Jews who knew what Jesus taught vanished from the Gentile Church, it became confused about Hades and it morphed into purgatory for Catholics. Everyone else was doomed.

The NT concept of Hades is like a "purgatory for all who died unsaved but did not commit eternal sins". The "torments" are designed not just to punish for sin, but to purge the soul of all delusion and slavery to sin.

For example, Christ said all in the grave will hear His voice. Is there anyone in Hades whose body isn't in the grave? Of course not. So Christ says all in Hades will hear His voice, and those who "obediently hear" (John 5:24) will live:

25 "Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.
...

28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. (Jn. 5:28-29 NKJ)

Whew, this stuff is complex. All I know is that I trust in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, so as a Christian, we go to heaven. Whether purgatory exists is irrelevant to me. Even as a Catholic, I do not see if purgatory is truly a thing or not. Would this post be considered Eschatology, as it discusses where people will be raised from the dead during the End Times? If so, Eschatology is my weakest point when it comes to Christian theology.

 

[Alfred-Persson]

Whew, this stuff is complex. All I know is that I trust in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, so as a Christian, we go to heaven. Whether purgatory exists is irrelevant to me. Even as a Catholic, I do not see if purgatory is truly a thing or not. Would this post be considered Eschatology, as it discusses where people will be raised from the dead during the End Times? If so, Eschatology is my weakest point when it comes to Christian theology.

Paul said something similar, but from a different perspective. He knew the complex, yet its the simple that is the power of God and if that's all you know, you know everything powerful:

2 For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified.
3 I was with you in weakness, in fear, and in much trembling.
4 And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,
5 that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God. (1 Cor. 2:2-5 NKJ)

 

[Offline4Better.]

Paul said something similar, but from a different perspective. He knew the complex, yet its the simple that is the power of God and if that's all you know, you know everything powerful:

2 For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified.
3 I was with you in weakness, in fear, and in much trembling.
4 And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,
5 that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God. (1 Cor. 2:2-5 NKJ)

I remember that Paul said we must not put our faith in men, but in God instead. That is why I put no faith in any Pope or leader. Only in Christ alone. And yes, as a Catholic Christian, I just said that. The pope means almost nothing to me.

 

[Alfred-Persson]

I remember that Paul said we must not put our faith in men, but in God instead. That is why I put no faith in any Pope or leader. Only in Christ alone. And yes, as a Catholic Christian, I just said that. The pope means almost nothing to me.

I consider myself a primitive Catholic; Orthodox Nicene Trinitarian; A Free Will Reformed Baptist cause both are somewhat right; Born again Christian. When I was in the Middle East, I was in the same proverbial foxhole as Catholics, and I noticed our petty differences vanished in the power of God, the risen Jesus Christ.

Lots of great excellent Christians, are Catholics.

 

[Offline4Better.]

I consider myself a primitive Catholic; Orthodox Nicene Trinitarian; A Free Will Reformed Baptist cause both are somewhat right; Born again Christian. When I was in the Middle East, I was in the same proverbial foxhole as Catholics, and I noticed our petty differences vanished in the power of God, the risen Jesus Christ.

Lots of great excellent Christians, are Catholics.

It is cool that we are both Catholic, but are both fed up with authority. Do you believe in transubstantiation? What were you doing in the Middle East? Were you serving in the military? If so, thank you for your service.

By the way, you might like the Anglicans or Greek Orthodox. They are basically Catholic minus the Pope.

 

[Alfred-Persson]

It is cool that we are both Catholic, but are both fed up with authority. Do you believe in transubstantiation? What were you doing in the Middle East? Were you serving in the military? If so, thank you for your service.

By the way, you might like the Anglicans or Greek Orthodox. They are basically Catholic minus the Pope.

By primitive Catholic I mean before all the additions that came, after Nicea. Transubstantiation, Icon verneration aren't in my set of beliefs. And I have tried to go back to 1st century eschatology, which is controversial today because the NT concept of Hades was different than today in Christendom.

I don't think any denomination is 100% right, that is why Elijah must come to restore all things, bring Christians throughout Christendom back to God their Father and His Holy Word the Bible.

I am more Protestant than Catholic, beliving in sola scriptura. But don't get me wrong, all who obey Jesus Christ, who confess Him as LORD, are in the body of Christ, which spans every denomination. In every church one always sees a group of believers who really believe (the Wheat), and those who pretend to believe (the Tares):

24 Another parable He put forth to them, saying: "The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field;
25 "but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way.
26 "But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared.
27 "So the servants of the owner came and said to him,`Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?'
28 "He said to them,`An enemy has done this.' The servants said to him,`Do you want us then to go and gather them up?'
29 "But he said,`No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them.
30 `Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn."'" (Matt. 13:24-30 NKJ)

 

[Alfred-Persson]

It is cool that we are both Catholic, but are both fed up with authority. Do you believe in transubstantiation? What were you doing in the Middle East? Were you serving in the military? If so, thank you for your service.

By the way, you might like the Anglicans or Greek Orthodox. They are basically Catholic minus the Pope.

I've been to the Middle East as a sailor in the US Merchant Marine, which is civilian not military. It was a proverbial foxhole, not real. At one time all Christians appealed to what the "universal worldwide =Catholic" church believed, as hersies arose. Logically, heresies would appear only in a isolated section of Christianity, while apostolic truth was believed world wide. "Thus saith the Catholic Church" had nothing to do with the papacy in the first few centuries. In fact, Roman Christians were hiding in the Catacombs while Orthodox Christianity was in charge. You called them Greek Orthodox. But I am an iconoclast, sola scripturist....so fit neither Orhodox or Roman Catholic constructs.

In other words, I believe Arminius, Calvin and the Catholic Luis de Molina (1535–1600) Spanish Jesuit theologian were all partly right. They all had some of the pieces of the puzzle correct, but missed seeing the entire picture. So if you think eschatology is complicated, predestination is something else you might want to avoid:

Predestination and Free Will paradox solved – End Time News

I am non-denominational, but I agree with you very much. Christ risen from the dead is the power of God onto salvation, and that is all we really need to know. Peace.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

The Rich Man does not act like someone who is irreedemably wicked and is suffering Eternal Torment. So how can Bible Believers cite this as proof of eternal torment?

We can probably cut right to the point on what you are trying to do. And hopefully, you'll enjoy seeing your position fail:

I have no issues whatsoever with the devil and his messengers going to the infamous LoF at the end of this wicked age. Forever and ever. For eternity. I may even consider it an antiHeaven for antiChrist spirits.

So where is this entity class in your analysis?

Strangely missing for some reason.

If you are promoting Satanic salvation we should get it out in the open for all to see

 

[Alfred-Persson]

We can probably cut right to the point on what you are trying to do. And hopefully, you'll enjoy seeing your position fail:

I have no issues whatsoever with the devil and his messengers going to the infamous LoF at the end of this wicked age. Forever and ever. For eternity. I may even consider it an antiHeaven for antiChrist spirits.

So where is this entity class in your analysis?

Strangely missing for some reason.

If you are promoting Satanic salvation we should get it out in the open for all to see

I never did that. Satan and demons, False prophet and Beast will be tormented eternally in the Lake of Fire. Using the Rich Man parable to teach eternal torment, when that contradicts the Resurrection on Judgment Day, is eisegesis.

I proved by the Scripture only the wicked get cast into the lake of fire, not the righteous. That is controversial, incredibly enough:

Jesus Saves Also in the After Life: Hope for your unsaved loved ones – End Time News

endtimenews.net

 

[Offline4Better.]

I've been to the Middle East as a sailor in the US Merchant Marine, which is civilian not military. It was a proverbial foxhole, not real. At one time all Christians appealed to what the "universal worldwide =Catholic" church believed, as hersies arose. Logically, heresies would appear only in a isolated section of Christianity, while apostolic truth was believed world wide. "Thus saith the Catholic Church" had nothing to do with the papacy in the first few centuries. In fact, Roman Christians were hiding in the Catacombs while Orthodox Christianity was in charge. You called them Greek Orthodox. But I am an iconoclast, sola scripturist....so fit neither Orhodox or Roman Catholic constructs.

In other words, I believe Arminius, Calvin and the Catholic Luis de Molina (1535–1600) Spanish Jesuit theologian were all partly right. They all had some of the pieces of the puzzle correct, but missed seeing the entire picture. So if you think eschatology is complicated, predestination is something else you might want to avoid:

Predestination and Free Will paradox solved – End Time News

I am non-denominational, but I agree with you very much. Christ risen from the dead is the power of God onto salvation, and that is all we really need to know. Peace.

Thank you for your service as a US Merchant Marine. Also, in other words, we can just say that you are Christian. We do not need all these boxes to fit into. Yeah, I will stay away from End Times study, unless it is absolutely necessary. Hey thank you, I will download Arminius and Luis de Molina into my theology documents which I can run through a locally-run artificial intelligence program.

As long as we both believe these things, we should be okay:

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

I never did that. Satan and demons, False prophet and Beast will be tormented eternally in the Lake of Fire.

If you understood parables you'd understand the rich man is represented as the devil and/or his messengers. So I again would have no issues with the eternal torment aspect of the parable.

For reference see Mark 4:13-15 on how to understand every parable and identify the critical parties, God, people and the devil or his demons-these are all the same

 

[Alfred-Persson]

If you understood parables you'd understand the rich man is represented as the devil and/or his messengers. So I again would have no issues with the eternal torment aspect of the parable.

For reference see Mark 4:13-15 on how to understand every parable and identify the critical parties, God, people and the devil or his demons-these are all the same

Context proves the Rich Man was the Pharisees who mocked Jesus:

14 Now the Pharisees, who were lovers of money, also heard all these things, and they derided Him.
15 And He said to them, "You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is highly esteemed among men is an abomination in the sight of God.
16 "The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it.
17 "And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one tittle of the law to fail.
18 "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced from her husband commits adultery.
19 "There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day.
20 "But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate,
21 "desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 "So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.
23 "And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 "Then he cried and said,`Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.'
25 "But Abraham said,`Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented.
26 `And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.'
27 "Then he said,`I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house,
28 `for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.'
29 "Abraham said to him,`They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.'
30 "And he said,`No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.'
31 "But he said to him,`If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.'"

(Lk. 16:14-31 NKJ)

The Law and the Prophets were until John, Now the New Covenent in Christ begins and those who love God with all their might are seizing the opportunity with gusto.

It is easier for heaven and earth to pass than all the curses in Deuteronomy 28:15ff not to occur because you reject me.

You have committed adultery with the God of Mammon, this is your certificate of divorce.

You won't believe what I say even after I send the risen Lazarus to you.

Contrary to your belief, Abraham will not stop you from entering Hades where you will pay for your sins and be purged of all delusion and slavery to mammon.

 

[Alfred-Persson]

Thank you for your service as a US Merchant Marine. Also, in other words, we can just say that you are Christian. We do not need all these boxes to fit into. Yeah, I will stay away from End Times study, unless it is absolutely necessary. Hey thank you, I will download Arminius and Luis de Molina into my theology documents which I can run through a locally-run artificial intelligence program.

As long as we both believe these things, we should be okay:

View attachment 354785

Merchant Marines in times of peace go to sea to make money, not "serve". During WWII more Merchant Mariners died than any branch of the service, they were heros. Not me. I was a kid looking for glory:

About Me – End Time News

End Time News from Bible Prophecy. Events are listed in the likely order they will occur. Also original Bible commentary about Chancellor Adonikam who morphs into the 666 Beast. Also an expose of the Nephilim who return disguised as mankind's' Elohim Designers during the apocalypse. And a little...

endtimenews.net

 

[Alfred-Persson]

If you understood parables you'd understand the rich man is represented as the devil and/or his messengers. So I again would have no issues with the eternal torment aspect of the parable.

For reference see Mark 4:13-15 on how to understand every parable and identify the critical parties, God, people and the devil or his demons-these are all the same

The Rich Man is definitely representing the Pharisees and scribes who refused Christ's authority. Confirming this, Christ tailored the parable specifically to refute them. The Pharisees believed Abraham would not permit a circumcised Israelite to enter Hades, they believed being a son of Abraham spared them from God's punishments:

'In the Hereafter Abraham will sit at the entrance of Gehinnom and will not allow any circumcised Israelite to descend into it.-Abraham Cohen, Everyman's Talmud, (Schocken Books, NY, 1995), pp. 381.


John the Baptist also warned Abraham would not save them, and they needed to repent and believe the coming Messiah Jesus Christ:

7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, "Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 "Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance,
9 "and do not think to say to yourselves,`We have Abraham as our father.' For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones.
10 "And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
11 "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
12 "His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire." (Matt. 3:7-12 NKJ)

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

Context proves the Rich Man was

I just finished citing you that it has to be the devil, and provided the scripture set for it

In Mark 4:13-15 Jesus tells us that in order to understand all parables we must understand only 1 parable. And in that parable there are 3 main characters, God, people and the devil

Guess which character nearly everyone fails to account for?

Yeah

Since "people" would be as in all people, it can not be the pharisee's or the saducees as the rich man

In any case all of Israel are taught to be God's children, so no harm no foul there on their part

 

[Alfred-Persson]

I just finished citing you that it has to be the devil, and provided the scripture set for it

In Mark 4:13-15 Jesus tells us that in order to understand all parables we must understand only 1 parable. And in that parable there are 3 main characters, God, people and the devil

Guess which character nearly everyone fails to account for?

Yeah

Since "people" would be as in all people, it can not be the pharisee's or the saducees as the rich man

In any case all of Israel are taught to be God's children, so no harm no foul there on their part

Incorrect. That is an irrelevant verse cited only to veil what is actually said....

Satan doesn't appear anywhere in that context. To see him there requires a 'willful suspension of reality,' imagination that blots out what really is going on.

If Perry Mason were on the case, disputing a claim by the plaintiff...he would say:

"Satan is irrelevant, immaterial to the context and any conclusion he exists in that context is incompetent."

 

[Alfred-Persson]

I just finished citing you that it has to be the devil, and provided the scripture set for it

In Mark 4:13-15 Jesus tells us that in order to understand all parables we must understand only 1 parable. And in that parable there are 3 main characters, God, people and the devil

Guess which character nearly everyone fails to account for?

Yeah

Since "people" would be as in all people, it can not be the pharisee's or the saducees as the rich man

In any case all of Israel are taught to be God's children, so no harm no foul there on their part

The 3 minute window to edit is why I respond again. The clock had run out.

When we look at Mark 4:213-15 its clear you took that out of context also. Those verses are not the "key to understanding all parables", its part of an explanation of what Christ just said. Christ wonders how they could undertand any of His parables, the obvious being so unseen by them:

1 And again He began to teach by the sea. And a great multitude was gathered to Him, so that He got into a boat and sat in it on the sea; and the whole multitude was on the land facing the sea.
2 Then He taught them many things by parables, and said to them in His teaching:
3 "Listen! Behold, a sower went out to sow.
4 "And it happened, as he sowed, that some seed fell by the wayside; and the birds of the air came and devoured it.
5 "Some fell on stony ground, where it did not have much earth; and immediately it sprang up because it had no depth of earth.
6 "But when the sun was up it was scorched, and because it had no root it withered away.
7 "And some seed fell among thorns; and the thorns grew up and choked it, and it yielded no crop.
8 "But other seed fell on good ground and yielded a crop that sprang up, increased and produced: some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some a hundred."
9 And He said to them, "He who has ears to hear, let him hear!"
10 But when He was alone, those around Him with the twelve asked Him about the parable.
11 And He said to them, "To you it has been given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God; but to those who are outside, all things come in parables,
12 "so that`Seeing they may see and not perceive, And hearing they may hear and not understand; Lest they should turn, And their sins be forgiven them.'"
13 And He said to them, "Do you not understand this parable? How then will you understand all the parables?
14 "The sower sows the word.
15 "And these are the ones by the wayside where the word is sown. When they hear, Satan comes immediately and takes away the word that was sown in their hearts.
16 "These likewise are the ones sown on stony ground who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with gladness;
17 "and they have no root in themselves, and so endure only for a time. Afterward, when tribulation or persecution arises for the word's sake, immediately they stumble.
18 "Now these are the ones sown among thorns; they are the ones who hear the word,
19 "and the cares of this world, the deceitfulness of riches, and the desires for other things entering in choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful.
20 "But these are the ones sown on good ground, those who hear the word, accept it, and bear fruit: some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some a hundred." (Mk. 4:1-20 NKJ)