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Iconoclast heresy

The Liturgist

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Please quote the actual quotes. I will look them up.

I’ve got to go to the drugstore as I am having a problem with my foot where I fell last month, and I may need to go to the hospital - please pray for me, and I will be back later this evening, and in the interim my friend @Prodromos is also aware of the Patristic quotes we are discussing and may be able to assist you.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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Show me one ECF who affirmed icon veneration before the sixth century.

Not Christian art. Not the catacombs. Icon veneration, meaning, bowing down before, praying through, and kissing the icon.
Why?
 
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All Becomes New

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Nicea II states that this goes back to the Apostles. It doesn't. And there are anathemas attached to not venerating icons in Nicea II. Kinda a big deal if Nicea II is factually incorrect and there are anathemas attached to not venerating icons.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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Nicea II states that this goes back to the Apostles. It doesn't. And there are anathemas attached to not venerating icons in Nicea II. Kinda a big deal if Nicea II is factually incorrect and there are anathemas attached to not venerating icons.
I know, I know, "show me Scripture" My automobile does not exist either because it is not in Scripture.

Nice article here, take it or leave it; I don't care. What I do know is that Iconoclasm was condemned... as real as my car.

 
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All Becomes New

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I know, I know, "show me Scripture" My automobile does not exist either because it is not in Scripture.

Nice article here, take it or leave it; I don't care. What I do know is that Iconoclasm was condemned... as real as my car.


Paintings ≠ Icon

I have no problem with Christian art, as I have said before. I love Christian Metal, which is Christian art. I even love Orthodox Christian Metal.

However, Christian art is WAY different than an Icon. And Icon is something you guys say that I must bow down before and kiss and pray through with the threat of anathema if I do not. And that is NOT a practice that goes back to the apostles. I asked someone else, but I would really like someone to quote someone from the ECF who affirmed Icon Veneration before the sixth century. That is, bowing down before, kissing, and praying through an Icon. I have yet to see a single reference to an ECF saying something like this before the sixth century.
 
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The Liturgist

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love Christian Metal, which is Christian art

Well I suppose there’s no accounting for individual stylistic preferences in music, after all, I have a vast collection of Soviet military music, including the entire body of work of the great Ukrainian composer Symeon Tchernetsky, as well as other classics by Agapkin, Alexandrov, et al, and what is more I have it committed to memory. For obvious reasons this could cause an offense to many of my Orthodox co-religionists who actually had to endure living under the Sovietsky Soyuza; a recurring nightmare of mine involves me walking around one of the ROCOR or the more ethnically Russian OCA parishes, including my own local cathedral of the Holy Virgin Mary, or one of our monasteries such as that of St. John of Shanghai and San Francisco or the Vashon Island monastery, and to find myself accidentally humming The March of Stalin’s Air Force or The Red Army’s Entry Into Budapest.

I even love Orthodox Christian Metal.

Which you will never hear in an Orthodox church, I am pleased to say. Even the use of organs is extremely controversial (I myself support their use in Greek Orthodox cathedrals and parish churches where their use is traditional, for example, in Western Europe, North America, and in the Ionian Islands, but only for the performance of settings of the liturgy by composers such as Tikey Zes who wrote for the organ, and not with Byzantine Chant (and also the restoration of the organ that once stood in the narthex of the Hagia Sophia when we retake Constantinople from the Turks) but oppose their use in musical rites where they are not traditional, and also oppose their use by the Syriac Orthodox, where the encyclical allowing organs is frequently abused to allow encyclicals, and where the traditional Syriac chant really sounds much better without it). I am happy to report that the average age of our hymns is in my estimation roughly 900 years, and that’s with the average being weighted in favor of more recent years by troparia, kontakia and akathist hymns composed for newer saints.

By the way, to be clear, this entire reply is intended as good-natured ribbing and as edutainment, since obviously there are many Orthodox who enjoy metal music, excluding obviously, myself, although I know of people who would regard my enjoyment of Soviet, Belgian, Swedish and British military music, among other nationaltiies I am aware of, as itself being “metal” although I myself don’t really understand this adjective, or why it is applied to certain genres of music, or certain behaviors, because I prefer to surround myself with art and music from the late Classical (Byzantine), Baroque, Rococco, Romantic/Victorian, and Art Nouveaux / Beaux Arts / Arts and Crafts and Art Deco / Streamline Moderne / early Modernist styles. Indeed the only popular form of music I have any real interest in, which I would deny constitutes at present anything like popular music, is jazz (including the swing music of the 1930s-50s).

This is of course because I am, simply put, an eccentric and a man who enjoys cultural pursuits.
 
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The Liturgist

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@All Becomes New - I am writing a reply specific that addresses your objections and requests for information, but before I can complete as helpful a reply as possible, , I need to know the extent to which you might open to reconsidering any of your conclusions about the nature of icons, iconography, and iconodulia, in the face of evidence that contradicts your position.
 
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All Becomes New

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@All Becomes New - I am writing a reply specific that addresses your objections and requests for information, but before I can complete as helpful a reply as possible, , I need to know the extent to which you might open to reconsidering any of your conclusions about the nature of icons, iconography, and iconodulia, in the face of evidence that contradicts your position.

Let me put it this way: I would be absolutely shocked if you could find a clear passage from the ECF that says directly that they affirmed icon veneration. I would have to reevaluate because based on what I know, there is no evidence like this.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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Paintings ≠ Icon

I have no problem with Christian art, as I have said before. I love Christian Metal, which is Christian art. I even love Orthodox Christian Metal.

However, Christian art is WAY different than an Icon. And Icon is something you guys say that I must bow down before and kiss and pray through with the threat of anathema if I do not. And that is NOT a practice that goes back to the apostles. I asked someone else, but I would really like someone to quote someone from the ECF who affirmed Icon Veneration before the sixth century. That is, bowing down before, kissing, and praying through an Icon. I have yet to see a single reference to an ECF saying something like this before the sixth century.
One persons art is another's Icon I guess. Pretty much the answer I expected.
 
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The Liturgist

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Let me put it this way: I would be absolutely shocked if you could find a clear passage from the ECF that says directly that they affirmed icon veneration. I would have to reevaluate because based on what I know, there is no evidence like this.

Do you understand that there are multiple forms of icon veneration that exist in different churches and liturgical rites?
 
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All Becomes New

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Do you understand that there are multiple forms of icon veneration that exist in different churches and liturgical rites?

I'm just going based on Nicea II.
 
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The Liturgist

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I'm just going based on Nicea II.

Nicaea II doesn’t specify the form the veneration should take place, only that it should happen.

At any rate, since the statements of the Church Fathers have been readily available this entire time, I presume/hope you’ve found them on your own?
 
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All Becomes New

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Nicaea II doesn’t specify the form the veneration should take place, only that it should happen.

False.

The reason for using the word is, that it has a two-fold signification. For κυνεῖν in the old Greek tongue signifies both "to salute" and "to kiss." And the preposition προς gives to it the additional idea of strong desire towards the subject; as for example, we have φέρω and προσφέρω, κυρῶ and προσκυρῶ, and so also we have κυνέω and προσκυνέω. Which last word implies salutation and strong love; for that which one loves he also reverences (προσκυνεῖ) and what he reverences that he greatly loves, as the everyday custom, which we observe towards those we love, bears witness, and in which both ideas are practically illustrated when two friends meet together. The word is not only made use of by us, but we also find it set down in the Divine Scriptures by the ancients. For it is written in the histories of the Kings, "And David rose up and fell upon his face and did reverence to (προσεκυνήσε) Jonathan three times and kissed him" 1 Kings 20:41.

At any rate, since the statements of the Church Fathers have been readily available this entire time, I presume/hope you’ve found them on your own?

What I would need to be convinced that kissing icons go back to the Apostles is to read about this being done explicitly in the third century or before by three different orthodox ECF.
 
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The Liturgist

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Paintings ≠ Icon

This may be true, but all icons discussed by the Seventh Ecumenical Council are paintings (as recorded, along with the Rudder of St. Nicodemus the Hagiorite).
 
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The Liturgist

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What I would need to be convinced that kissing icons go back to the Apostles is to read about this being done explicitly in the third century or before by three different orthodox ECF.

You’re raising the goalposts yet again, since first you asked:

Show me one ECF who affirmed icon veneration before the sixth century.

Not Christian art. Not the catacombs. Icon veneration, meaning, bowing down before, praying through, and kissing the icon.

To which I replied.

St. Gregory the Theologian, St. Basil the Great, St. Gregory of Nyssa, St. John Chryosostom, and St. Methodius of Olympus, to use five of the more obvious examples.

Then you demanded quotes, which you could easily have found over the Internet, which I suspect you did find, since now you want to see three pre-third century ECFs.

This raising of the bar, where someone says they want evidence X, and when it is supplied, then says they want Y, and then Z, demonstrates a lack of objectivity.

I am curious however that you want third century, meaning ante-Nicene Fathers, since usually the only people who demand that are those who reject the Council of Nicaea or the Nicene Creed.
 
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All Becomes New

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Then you demanded quotes, which you could easily have found over the Internet, which I suspect you did find, since now you want to see three pre-third century ECFs.

I did not look up any references. I simply thought about it more. That is what would convince me icon veneration goes back to the Apostles.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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I did not look up any references. I simply thought about it more. That is what would convince me icon veneration goes back to the Apostles.
If you don't venerate icons, then why do you want so much conversation about it?
 
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If you don't venerate icons, then why do you want so much conversation about it?

One reason is that the Orthodox and Catholic churches make it obligatory to do with anathemas attached if you don't.
 
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The Liturgist

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I did not look up any references. I simply thought about it more. That is what would convince me icon veneration goes back to the Apostles.

And I find it strange you are unwilling to trust Fourth and Fifth Century fathers like St. Basil the Great on the matter - it indicates you might have a negative view on the Nicene Creed or the first three ecumenical synods.
 
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All Becomes New

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And I find it strange you are unwilling to trust Fourth and Fifth Century fathers like St. Basil the Great on the matter - it indicates you might have a negative view on the Nicene Creed or the first three ecumenical synods.

That quote is either not authentic or taken out of context. So that is why I don't trust the quote from Basil.
 
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