Can We Sin in Heaven?

[David Lamb]

I am curious of your position. Many Christians would argue that God gives us free will, and that without free will, we would be mindless robots, and that is not a true expression of love.

So when we go to eternal Heaven, here on the new Earth, after the battle of Armageddon and after the great throne judgement, will we have the free will to sin or do evil?

This question seems absurd, but I have heard only two answers.

1) We will not want to sin, because we will have renewed bodies free of our fleshly desires.
Not wanting to sin, doesn't mean we won't be able to sin.... does it?

2) There will be no choice to sin, like a buffet of good things to eat, but no bad things.
This seems odd, as we know that before Adam sinned in the Garden, Lucifer had already sinned against God in Heaven.

What are your thoughts?

To answer the question posed by the thread title, no, we cannot sin in heaven, because the bible tells us:

“But there shall by no means enter it (heaven) anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.” (Re 21:27 NKJV)

 

[KevinT]

Interesting thoughts, but it seems to me, if we have free will but just choose a better way, then the thought of the bad way would still be there for consideration, just not acted upon. Then we go back to the Bible, where Jesus tells us if we look on a woman with lustful thoughts, we have already committed adultery. So it appears, even the thought of doing wrong, even if we choose to do right every time, is still problematic.

One thing we do know, there is no plan for dealing with sin after the great throne of judgement.... at least no plan that has been revealed to us.

If, as a child, I were in a candy store perhaps a thought might come to my mind that I could just steal the candy, and not have to pay for it. But if may parents have helped me internalize the concept that stealing is wrong, then I could put that thought out of my head. In my mind, that was not sinful. To the contrary, it is exactly what God wants us to do.

On the other hand, if adult me wants to rob a bank and I think about it all day long, devising scheme after scheme, just waiting for the right opportunity -- then I would say that in God's judgement, I have as good as already done the deed. There is nothing internal holding me back -- only external circumstances.

So I interpret Jesus' teaching to not mean those lustful ideas that pop into our brains spontaneously and are quickly put aside, but rather is warning us that if we don't change our ways, bad things will follow. For example, David was "just looking" at Bathsheeba from the rooftop as she was bathing. And look at all the grief and heartache that followed naturally thereafter.

I thought of another way of thinking about your original questions. In heaven, will we have the ability to pick up a hammer and hit ourselves on the head with it? We sure will have that ability -- but who ever would want to do so?

Best wishes,
KT

 

[com7fy8]

I am curious of your position. Many Christians would argue that God gives us free will, and that without free will, we would be mindless robots, and that is not a true expression of love.

Well, if you love someone, you will not force him or her to do what you want.

So when we go to eternal Heaven, here on the new Earth, after the battle of Armageddon and after the great throne judgement, will we have the free will to sin or do evil?

I would say Jesus is free from the ability to do evil, and He loves just fine. God's love has character incapable of doing evil; it would be good, then, to have this character of God's love.

We would not be mindless, but we would have the mind of Christ.

But there are people who worship control and free will; they, then, can invent ways to automatically accuse God if He were to have the control which He has. Satan is jealous that God has all the real control. And human free will can not please God; but only Jesus can truly please our Father; and so we need how God changes us into the character of Christ so now we share with Jesus in us in how He is pleasing to our Father.

Also, if we trust in Jesus, don't we give up our wills so He can do all He is able to do with us? Why would we want to hold on to our human wills with our limited ability to choose?

"for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13)

To God is the glory for all genuine obedience, then, thanks to how He has worked in our willing.

This question seems absurd, but I have heard only two answers.

1) We will not want to sin, because we will have renewed bodies free of our fleshly desires.
Not wanting to sin, doesn't mean we won't be able to sin.... does it?

If we have the character of Jesus, Jesus is God with full inability to do evil. And Jesus in union with us in His love shares with us how He is and how He loves.

In God's character of love we do not want to and we can not sin. So, 1. is incorrect, in my opinion.

2) There will be no choice to sin, like a buffet of good things to eat, but no bad things.
This seems odd, as we know that before Adam sinned in the Garden, Lucifer had already sinned against God in Heaven.

Even while Jesus was in the presence of opportunities to sin, He did not sin. And in us Jesus more and more is sharing His character with us.

Therefore, it is not the circumstances that help us not to sin in Heaven, but the character of Jesus has us so succeeding.

So, I would say 2. is also incorrect.

Being in Heaven is like being in God's love now. God's love has almighty power to have us desiring to love. You can't have desire to love and to sin, at the same time!

And God's character is almighty with inability to do evil. And we share in this with God while He has us loving.

So, even in this life while we are loving, we are sampling how in Heaven we can not want to sin and we are unable to sin, because of our almighty union with Jesus >

"But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him." (1 Corinthians 6:17)

"Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world." (1 John 4:17)

 

[Diamond72]

We will not want to sin

If we live long enough to suffer the consequences of sin I to not think we will want to sin after that.

 

[HarleyER]

I am curious of your position. Many Christians would argue that God gives us free will, and that without free will, we would be mindless robots, and that is not a true expression of love.

So when we go to eternal Heaven, here on the new Earth, after the battle of Armageddon and after the great throne judgement, will we have the free will to sin or do evil?

This question seems absurd, but I have heard only two answers.

1) We will not want to sin, because we will have renewed bodies free of our fleshly desires.
Not wanting to sin, doesn't mean we won't be able to sin.... does it?

2) There will be no choice to sin, like a buffet of good things to eat, but no bad things.
This seems odd, as we know that before Adam sinned in the Garden, Lucifer had already sinned against God in Heaven.

What are your thoughts?

I've heard the argument of "mindless robots" many times before. I wish I was a mindless robot, totally led by the Spirit of Christ. Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way. Next time ask someone who wants free will if they don't wish to walk by the Spirit.

When we get to heaven, like Christ, every decision we will make will be a perfect decision. We simply will no longer have any desire to choose not to follow God's will. In our present case, our wills are bent towards rebellion against God. The Spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.

 

[Francis 1928]

I am curious of your position. Many Christians would argue that God gives us free will, and that without free will, we would be mindless robots, and that is not a true expression of love.

So when we go to eternal Heaven, here on the new Earth, after the battle of Armageddon and after the great throne judgement, will we have the free will to sin or do evil?

This question seems absurd, but I have heard only two answers.

1) We will not want to sin, because we will have renewed bodies free of our fleshly desires.
Not wanting to sin, doesn't mean we won't be able to sin.... does it?

2) There will be no choice to sin, like a buffet of good things to eat, but no bad things.
This seems odd, as we know that before Adam sinned in the Garden, Lucifer had already sinned against God in Heaven.

What are your thoughts?

Our souls are purified once in heaven .In my opinion there would be absolutely no desire to sin. So the whether we have the free will to choose to sin or not is null and void.

 

[PastorKeith]

Our souls are purified once in heaven .In my opinion there would be absolutely no desire to sin. So the whether we have the free will to choose to sin or not is null and void.

What do you make of the Angel's rebellion in Heaven? They certainly chose to sin.

 

[Francis 1928]

What do you make of the Angel's rebellion in Heaven? They certainly chose to sin.

That is obvious of course.Angels are not humans . That was a one time battle .Those angels are in hell.

 

[PastorKeith]

That is obvious of course.Angels are not humans . That was a one time battle .Those angels are in hell.

Those Angels are all around us, we call them demons.

 

[Neogaia777]

I am curious of your position. Many Christians would argue that God gives us free will, and that without free will, we would be mindless robots, and that is not a true expression of love.

So when we go to eternal Heaven, here on the new Earth, after the battle of Armageddon and after the great throne judgement, will we have the free will to sin or do evil?

This question seems absurd, but I have heard only two answers.

1) We will not want to sin, because we will have renewed bodies free of our fleshly desires.
Not wanting to sin, doesn't mean we won't be able to sin.... does it?

2) There will be no choice to sin, like a buffet of good things to eat, but no bad things.
This seems odd, as we know that before Adam sinned in the Garden, Lucifer had already sinned against God in Heaven.

What are your thoughts?

The whole/sole purpose for all of this temporary evil here right now, for both us and a fully omniscient God who made it, etc, is so that those getting to go to Heaven after this will be sufficiently trained by it, etc. Or, i.e. won't sin the kinds of sins that will still be possible there again after that anymore, etc.

God Bless.

 

[armchairscholar]

I am curious of your position. Many Christians would argue that God gives us free will, and that without free will, we would be mindless robots, and that is not a true expression of love.

So when we go to eternal Heaven, here on the new Earth, after the battle of Armageddon and after the great throne judgement, will we have the free will to sin or do evil?

This question seems absurd, but I have heard only two answers.

1) We will not want to sin, because we will have renewed bodies free of our fleshly desires.
Not wanting to sin, doesn't mean we won't be able to sin.... does it?

2) There will be no choice to sin, like a buffet of good things to eat, but no bad things.
This seems odd, as we know that before Adam sinned in the Garden, Lucifer had already sinned against God in Heaven.

What are your thoughts?

What a fascinating and thought-provoking question! I've grappled with this conundrum myself. While there's no definitive answer, I'd like to offer a nuanced perspective.

I agree that the notion of free will is essential to our human experience and our relationship with God. Without it, our choices and actions would be robotic, lacking the authenticity and depth that comes with making decisions that reflect our values and desires.

Regarding the two answers you've encountered, I think there's merit in both, but also some limitations. The first response suggests that our renewed bodies in heaven will be free from fleshly desires, which might imply that our capacity for sin will be diminished. But as you astutely pointed out, not wanting to sin doesn't necessarily mean we won't be able to sin. This perspective seems to overlook the complexity of human nature and the multifaceted nature of sin.

The second response, proposing a "buffet of good things" without any bad options, raises interesting questions about the nature of choice and moral agency. If we're only presented with good options, do we truly have free will? Doesn't the absence of bad choices undermine the concept of free will itself? as you noted, the presence of sin in heaven prior to Adam's fall (i.e., Lucifer's rebellion) challenges this idea.

My own thoughts on this matter lead me to consider the possibility that our understanding of free will and sin might need to be redefined in the context of heaven. Perhaps, in our glorified state, we'll possess a transformed capacity for choice that's no longer bound by the same limitations and temptations we experience in this life. Maybe our renewed nature will be characterized by an inherent alignment with God's will, not because we're deprived of choices, but because our very essence has been transformed to reflect His love and righteousness.

In this sense, our "free will" in heaven might be more akin to a "freedom to love" – an unencumbered capacity to choose and act in ways that honor God, without the burdens of sin and rebellion that currently plague us. This perspective would suggest that our choices in heaven will be guided by a deepened intimacy with God, rather than the influences of sin and self-interest.

While this is purely speculative, I believe it's essential to acknowledge the mystery surrounding this question. As we grapple with the nature of free will and sin in heaven, we must remain humble and open to the possibility that our understanding will be refined and transformed as we continue to explore the depths of God's love and redemption.

What are your thoughts on this? How do you envision the relationship between free will and sin in heaven? I'd love to continue this conversation!

 

[Neogaia777]

What are your thoughts on this? How do you envision the relationship between free will and sin in heaven? I'd love to continue this conversation!

Whether we started out choosing it or not, hopefully we have seen and experienced enough of it, and have also seen/experienced enough of it to see how very, very confounding/confusing it can get when left unchecked, that those of us going to Heaven after this will never ever freely choose a much more simplified version of it that is not grey yet (which also causes us to sin) ever again, etc.

I think it's the whole reason right now for this, etc.

God Bless.

 

[KevinT]

Whether we started out choosing it or not, hopefully we have seen and experienced enough of it, and have also seen/experienced enough of it to see how very, very confounding/confusing it can get when left unchecked, that those of us going to Heaven after this will never ever freely choose a much more simplified version of it that is not grey yet (which also causes us to sin) ever again, etc.

I think it's the whole reason right now for this, etc.

God Bless.

I agree with you.

Reading through the replies, I see some that answer with the pattern of, "God will change us so that we can not sin." Others, such as my answer and yours, are in the pattern of, "God will have taught us, so that won't want to sin." And when I look at the big picture, I think we are both saying the same thing.

Best wishes,

KT

 

[PastorKeith]

My own thoughts on this matter lead me to consider the possibility that our understanding of free will and sin might need to be redefined in the context of heaven. Perhaps, in our glorified state, we'll possess a transformed capacity for choice that's no longer bound by the same limitations and temptations we experience in this life. Maybe our renewed nature will be characterized by an inherent alignment with God's will, not because we're deprived of choices, but because our very essence has been transformed to reflect His love and righteousness.

In this sense, our "free will" in heaven might be more akin to a "freedom to love" – an unencumbered capacity to choose and act in ways that honor God, without the burdens of sin and rebellion that currently plague us. This perspective would suggest that our choices in heaven will be guided by a deepened intimacy with God, rather than the influences of sin and self-interest.

Thank you for the very thought-out response. Now I have a third view to add to my list, and a view that holds great merit.

As I believe was stated earlier in this thread, the last judgement is where God deals with sin for good. Jesus has no intention of laying down on the cross again, so any future experience after the great throne judgement has to be sin-free, however that looks.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I am curious of your position. Many Christians would argue that God gives us free will, and that without free will, we would be mindless robots, and that is not a true expression of love.

So when we go to eternal Heaven, here on the new Earth, after the battle of Armageddon and after the great throne judgement, will we have the free will to sin or do evil?

This question seems absurd, but I have heard only two answers.

1) We will not want to sin, because we will have renewed bodies free of our fleshly desires.
Not wanting to sin, doesn't mean we won't be able to sin.... does it?

2) There will be no choice to sin, like a buffet of good things to eat, but no bad things.
This seems odd, as we know that before Adam sinned in the Garden, Lucifer had already sinned against God in Heaven.

What are your thoughts?

The question of "free will" is complicated and messy. People tend to mean different things, and disagree what exactly "free" in "free will" even means.

Here's an absurd example: Do I have the free will to spontaneously sprout wings from my back and fly like a bird? The answer, of course, is no--I can't do that, and it doesn't matter how "free" or how much I might will that to happen, it can't happen. So we could, perhaps, agree that we aren't free to do anything, we are limited in some way, by nature.

So that is where I'd start: There are limits, there are things we cannot do.

So, then, how about this: Can human beings be righteous before God? Can we, by our own power, or freedom of our will, be righteous before God?

The answer which the Bible gives us to that question is no. For "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23)

This question is also one which the ancient Church had to contend with in the Pelagian Controversy. Pelagius was a devout Christian monk from what was, at the time, Roman occupied Britain. Pelagius believed very strongly in being moral, in devoting oneself to living righteously as a Christian. At the time St. Augustine of Hippo was a fairly prolific writer, he also had his own story of his conversion. Augustine grew up in North Africa, the son of a devout Christian mother named Monica, and a Pagan father named Patricius. Augustine's story is the story of a mother's love, a rebellious son, and a gracious Savior. For centuries Christians around the world fondly remember Augustine by the affectionate title "Doctor of Grace" where "doctor" means "teacher" here--so potent, so deep, and so profound was his emphasis on God's grace in saving us, in the love of God in Christ who suffered and died for us, that Augustine became the theologian against whom every other theologian in the Christian West was measured against. Only St. Paul the Apostle himself could stand over Augustine. But it is here, where Pelagius and Augustine had their confrontation: Pelagius on the one side, a devout man who believed in Christian committment to good works; and Augustine, a redeemed sinner and devout preacher of God's mercy. Pelagius would argue that, because God gave human beings free will, they could freely do good works and be righteous--that being righteous and unrighteous was purely an act of free will, given by God to everyone. Augustine, on the other hand, argued that because we are Adam's children, we--like Adam--are fallen, sinful, we have been made captive to our own sinful passions. We can't stand on our own two feet, we need profound intervention of God's grace--we can't do it, but God can. We can't be righteous, but God can give us righteousness.

This controversy, thankfully, has a good ending: Pelagius' teachings were condemned. Because, ultimately, though Pelagius himself would never have said it, what Pelagius was saying amounted to saying that Jesus was unnecessary. If we can, purely as an act of free will, be righteous before God, then we don't need a Savior to save us from our sin. Augustine recognized that, which is why he was so emphatic in his condemnation of Pelagius, and other bishops and church leaders at the time, agreed: We must preach the Gospel.

In this, then, we must confess that the will of fallen human beings--without regeneration, without grace, without the Holy Spirit--is incapable (is not free) to be righteous. The will is, in that sense, un-free; the will is in some way held captive to sin.

This is important because talk about "free will" in a theological sense, in the sense of the will being free (by its own power) to be righteous before God is something entirely different than a more casual use of "free will". I am, of course, free to do X or do Y, I can choose what I eat for breakfast, what I wear. When I go out of my house and engage other human beings, I can choose to be nice, be mean, I can be polite, I can go out of my way to do a good deed, or I can be an evil menace. So there is a freedom to act; but as it pertains to being righteous before God, the will simply isn't free. The will is held in bondage. Even when I choose to do good, sin is still there in the mix. Think about what the Lord says, "Don't let your one hand know what the other hand is doing", He doesn't condemn the Pharisees for doing good deeds, but He condemns them for doing it for show. That's sin, and it's right there when you give a hungry person food and then think "I've done a really good deed, and people should praise me for it"--even in the good that we do there is evil in our hearts. The disciples said to Jesus, "How then can a man be saved?" and Jesus answered them, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible". We can't do it, we can't save ourselves, we can't be righteous.

When we stand and look at the Law of God it condemns us, it shows us just how much we have fallen, just how much we come up short. The Law demands gold and silver and we come with dirt and straw. The Law cannot make us righteous. No amount of trying, no amount of works will ever make us righteous before God--we are condemned sinners. Evil.

So I mention all this for a reason: The will that we have in the Age to Come, is it free? Indeed, it will be the most free it ever has been. So no, we cannot sin in heaven. Not because we are deprived of freedom, but because we will be entirely free.

A person that is free does not wear chains.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

I am curious of your position. Many Christians would argue that God gives us free will, and that without free will, we would be mindless robots, and that is not a true expression of love.

So when we go to eternal Heaven, here on the new Earth, after the battle of Armageddon and after the great throne judgement, will we have the free will to sin or do evil?

This question seems absurd, but I have heard only two answers.

1) We will not want to sin, because we will have renewed bodies free of our fleshly desires.
Not wanting to sin, doesn't mean we won't be able to sin.... does it?

2) There will be no choice to sin, like a buffet of good things to eat, but no bad things.
This seems odd, as we know that before Adam sinned in the Garden, Lucifer had already sinned against God in Heaven.

What are your thoughts?

That is the magic of Satan and Christ Jesus. Jesus fully overcame a complete evil. All types represented in Satan's nature and perfectly instilled in us. Jesus overcame growing up, on the cross, and in the resurrection, and He can impart this to us, in salvation, through all sanctification and eventually glorification. 1 Peter 1:5 speaks of shielding power. There is the fruit of the Spirit, refining fire, Jesus' powerful blood, resurrection power. Just being in the light and not deceived... We will know exactly what sin will give us and like the holy angels, we will be beyond temptation. Evil leads to a fuller holiness and glory. We will see and be like God, He turns the the lie into a blessing for those who love and fear Him.

 

[Armchair Apologist]

I am curious of your position. Many Christians would argue that God gives us free will, and that without free will, we would be mindless robots, and that is not a true expression of love.

So when we go to eternal Heaven, here on the new Earth, after the battle of Armageddon and after the great throne judgement, will we have the free will to sin or do evil?

This question seems absurd, but I have heard only two answers.

1) We will not want to sin, because we will have renewed bodies free of our fleshly desires.
Not wanting to sin, doesn't mean we won't be able to sin.... does it?

2) There will be no choice to sin, like a buffet of good things to eat, but no bad things.
This seems odd, as we know that before Adam sinned in the Garden, Lucifer had already sinned against God in Heaven.

What are your thoughts?

How about if we attack this from the other end of the argument...

In this life, do we have the ability to not sin?

Seems like a QED here, doesn't it? Man's free will is always limited to the bounds of his ability!

With Adam, you had "Posse Pecarre" and "Posse Non-Pecarre" (the ability to sin and the ability not to sin).​

With the fall, mankind became "Non-Posse, Non-Pecarre" (the inability to not sin).​

When we are raised with Christ in our glorified state, we will be "Non-Posse Pecarre" (unable to sin, just like God)!​

Which segues to the ultimate question regarding "Free Will!" No one has a perfect free will, not even God!

That's right folks! There are things that even God cannot do!

God is eternal with no beginning or end. Therefore God has no age and cannot get any older. God cannot change, cannot be taught, cannot be wrong, cannot sin, cannot lie, cannot die. and cannot cease from being God!​

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

In this life, we must take decades in God's power and presence to become able to not sin, and even stare death in the face and not fear.

 

[Francis 1928]

Those Angels are all around us, we call them demons.

That goes without saying .They are everywhere not just down under.

 

[Armchair Apologist]

In this life, we must take decades in God's power and presence to become able to not sin, and even stare death in the face and not fear.

Sanctification takes place in the life of a believer conforming one to the image of Christ but under no circumstance does anyone ever attain "Sinless Perfection" whereby they can live this present life without sinning.