Kansas votes 62% to retain the right to access an abortion in its constitution.

[Belk]

Like how much later on?

After viability is when it strikes me as a reasonable cut off.

I think thats very much true.

 

[DaisyDay]

Are you a lawyer? I'm not and I'm a doctor or a psychiatrist or a anybody who can present anything the way you want it presented. In fact, I'd bet my life's savings you can't even present the case for abortion the way you want me to present the case against abortion. You are an obstinate person is all you are. My arguments against abortion are done with you because you have nothing to offer to it. You are an angry stubborn person who listens to no one but his/her self.

Total ad hom. Attacking the person is a terrible argument guaranteed to lose.

 

[rjs330]

After viability is when it strikes me as a reasonable cut off.

When is that? How many weeks?

 

[Tinker Grey]

Total ad hom. Attacking the person is a terrible argument guaranteed to lose.

"Guaranteed to lose"? Has already lost.

 

[Nithavela]

When is that? How many weeks?

After about the 23rd week.

I'd say make it 20 to be on the safe side.

 

[Belk]

When is that? How many weeks?

With current medical technology I believe it is somewhere between 22 to 24 weeks.

 

[Tinker Grey]

With current medical technology I believe it is somewhere between 22 to 24 weeks.

I believe fetuses don't have the brain structures to support consciousness until after the 26th or 27th week. I'd compromise around 24 weeks.

 

[Nithavela]

With current medical technology I believe it is somewhere between 22 to 24 weeks.

I believe fetuses don't have the brain structures to support consciousness until after the 26th or 27th week. I'd compromise around 24 weeks.

The problem is that pro-life people, even those who would be willing to compromise on early abortion on principal, would rather side with the people arguing for a total ban than being seen supporting the pro-choice side.

 

[childeye 2]

The problem is that pro-life people, even those who would be willing to compromise on early abortion on principal, would rather side with the people arguing for a total ban than being seen supporting the pro-choice side.

Not exactly, it depends on how one qualifies pro-life. "Pro-choice" is pretty well-defined with a true opposite "anti-choice". Speaking for myself and those who share the same conviction, I believe that if a woman carries her baby to term, she will eventually be glad she had the child rather than the abortion, but even if she didn't, MY being pro-life doesn't equate to HER being anti-life. This of course would not be applicable to an abortion in the context of a life/death medical necessity, and I admit it's simplistic reasoning around a complex issue.

 

[Belk]

The problem is that pro-life people, even those who would be willing to compromise on early abortion on principal, would rather side with the people arguing for a total ban than being seen supporting the pro-choice side.

Then they will continue to lose support. People have seen the devastation total bans can cause.

 

[Hvizsgyak]

From what I've see you are presenting it in two ways. One, it's morally wrong - and this is generally a religious argument (although there are religions that do allow abortion). And two, it's an emotional argument.

It seems the first is irrelevant when it comes to making a personal decision. From here: Catholics are just as likely to get an abortion as other U.S. women. Why?.

'According to the latest numbers from the Guttmacher Institute, 24 percent of women who procure abortions identify as Catholic, almost the same as 22 percent of all U.S. women who called themselves Catholic'.

So even those who are followers of a religion which specifically condones abortion, when they get pregnant and they don't want it to continue...

As regards the second, you have to ask yourself why a woman considers what she is carrying very early in her pregnancy to be different to that which she is carrying late in the same pregnancy. She might be disappointed in discovering that a pregnancy didn't proceed one week after conception. But she'd be absolutely devasted if she lost the pregnancy one week before birth.

Do you understand that her emotional attachment is completely different?

Very good point on the second reason. I can understand that the pregnant woman probably isn't as emotionally attached to the one month old unborn child. I would argue though it is because she doesn't fully understand what that one month old unborn child truly is in her body. Planned parenthood will show her a picture and say, "right now it's just a bunch of cells". And the pregnant woman won't think twice about aborting the child. At one month though:

The first trimester: your baby's growth and development in early pregnancy

The first three months of your pregnancy are the most critical. WebMD tells you how your baby's growing.

www.webmd.com

Now if a honest medical person were showing the one month old unborn child they would be explaining all about how far the unborn child has developed.

As for your first reason, a moral issue which is generally a religious issue, you are absolutely wrong. This is a socially moral issue as is killing, stealing, lying, raping, molesting...!!!

Yes, I am familiar with the number of Catholics who have abortions. That number doesn't surprise me. One-third of the Catholics don't believe in the Real Presence of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist and that is one of the main beliefs to be held by a faithful Catholic. So, there are Catholics who haven't truly tried to know their faith. Same goes with the issue of abortion.

 

[Hvizsgyak]

From what I've see you are presenting it in two ways. One, it's morally wrong - and this is generally a religious argument (although there are religions that do allow abortion). And two, it's an emotional argument.

It seems the first is irrelevant when it comes to making a personal decision. From here: Catholics are just as likely to get an abortion as other U.S. women. Why?.

'According to the latest numbers from the Guttmacher Institute, 24 percent of women who procure abortions identify as Catholic, almost the same as 22 percent of all U.S. women who called themselves Catholic'.

So even those who are followers of a religion which specifically condones abortion, when they get pregnant and they don't want it to continue...

As regards the second, you have to ask yourself why a woman considers what she is carrying very early in her pregnancy to be different to that which she is carrying late in the same pregnancy. She might be disappointed in discovering that a pregnancy didn't proceed one week after conception. But she'd be absolutely devasted if she lost the pregnancy one week before birth.

Do you understand that her emotional attachment is completely different?

Also, in my quote, I meant to say, "I'm not a doctor or psychiatrist". I was a programmer/analyst for 7 years and a postal letter carrier for 30 years. Now, I'm just tired (and retired thank goodness ).

 

[Hvizsgyak]

View attachment 354612

Yes, I was and still am tired of listening to nonsensical arguments (in my opinion).

 

[rjs330]

With current medical technology I believe it is somewhere between 22 to 24 weeks.

That is too late. The baby's heart is fully developed at about 10 weeks. I don't think we should be killing any human with a heart beat and a functioning heart.

 

[Nithavela]

That is too late. The baby's heart is fully developed at about 10 weeks. I don't think we should be killing any human with a heart beat and a functioning heart.

What's so special about the heart, compared to, say, a functioning liver? A human can live with an artificial heart, but there is no artificial liver.

 

[Belk]

That is too late. The baby's heart is fully developed at about 10 weeks. I don't think we should be killing any human with a heart beat and a functioning heart.

Why not? What makes the heart a determining factor?

 

[rjs330]

What's so special about the heart, compared to, say, a functioning liver? A human can live with an artificial heart, but there is no artificial liver.

Okay, how about brain then? The brain begins to function around 8 weeks. We could use that instead. Since we don't really have artificial brains yet.

Is that really your judgement call? Whether or not we have artificial organs or body parts? That has something to do with whether something is alive or not?

At week 12 all rhe organs are rhere and function with the liver producing bile. Should we say week 12 then? Since the liver seems to be more important than the heart to you?

 

[rjs330]

Why not? What makes the heart a determining factor?

See 457. The heart is critical to life. We all know that the body pretty much dies immediately if the heart stops. It's always been known as the center of life for the body. But let's say it's the brain then. Thats about 8 weeks. Or we could go with 12 since that's when the rest of the organs are working. You know just to avoid any arguments over which organ is more important to life.

 

[Nithavela]

Okay, how about brain then? The brain begins to function around 8 weeks. We could use that instead. Since we don't really have artificial brains yet.

Is that really your judgement call? Whether or not we have artificial organs or body parts? That has something to do with whether something is alive or not?

At week 12 all rhe organs are rhere and function with the liver producing bile. Should we say week 12 then? Since the liver seems to be more important than the heart to you?

I think that three months is an acceptable timeframe when it comes to compromise between pro-choice and pro-life proponents. It allows the mother to realise that she is pregnant and make an informed choice, but prevents unneccessary suffering on the part of the fetus.

I also think that there should be exceptions for fetal defects, rape and other extenuating circumstances, but as many people in this thread have mentioned, this is a minority of cases that shouldn't inform general policy except for those exceptions.

Sadly, I'm afraid that there is no possibility for compromise. Many pro-life proponents are of the "no fetus left behind" mindset, while many pro-choice proponents fear a slippery slope. A huge part of both sides then follow the arguments of those proponents, and you're left with an argumentativ deadlock where a lot of energy is expended on not achieving anything at all.

 

[DaisyDay]

See 457. The heart is critical to life. We all know that the body pretty much dies immediately if the heart stops. It's always been known as the center of life for the body. But let's say it's the brain then. Thats about 8 weeks. Or we could go with 12 since that's when the rest of the organs are working. You know just to avoid any arguments over which organ is more important to life.

Lungs?