SALVATION

[AbbaLove]

Romans 7 is about the conflicting natures between the Spirit and the flesh, not the law.

Paul is writing to his Jewish brethren about (22) the Law of God (e.g. Deuteronomy 6:5) in the inner man and (23) the law of sin in the members of his [former] body and unsaved Jewish brethren.

Paul is not trying to convert his unsaved Jewish brothers by talking down to them, but rather speaking in way to which they can relate that will prick their heart by being freed from struggling with sin by accepting Yeshua as Israel's Messiah and further as their Lord and Savior.

22 For I joyfully concur with the Law of God in the inner man, 23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the Law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.​

On the other hand when speaking to a Christian brother one may quote scrpture to rebuke an attitude of "from time to time" as nominal Christianity for putting up with sin. When instead Christians now abiding in Christ will flee from sin.

Don't you know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, who lives in you and who was given to you by God? You do not belong to yourselves but to God; He bought you for a price. So use your bodies for God's glory.​

In Romans 8 he talks about how we are no longer a slave to sin, he doesn’t say that we can’t sin or that he doesn’t sin.

Christians (including Pastors) tend to interpret scripture to satisfy the comfort zone of their congreagtion as well as their own comfort zone. Let's face it that more than a few Christians have one foot standing beside the Word of God and the other foot planted in the world as an example that others follow.

We can and do still grieve the Holy Spirit from time to time. (?Christian Bumper Sticker?)

And yet we're told not to grieve the Holy Spirit ... not even from "time to time."

Would you display such a bumper sticker on your car or truck when you pull into church parking lot tomorrow or at your work site? Is that the testimony of 21st century Christianity and why some refer to some Christians as hypocrites?

So God's Spirit in the heart of a new [born again] creation in Christ is stronger than the enemy and what was the sin nature of his former members with the result being a new life in Christ.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I have a hard time ignoring Romans 2:1-3's admonition to refrain from judging others' salvation.

Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things. But we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against those who practice such things. And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the judgment of God? (Ro 2:1–3)​

The message in Romans 2 isn’t about judging others it’s about being a hypocrite, just like what Jesus said in Matthew 7.

“I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people; I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world. But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler not even to eat with such a one. For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church? But those who are outside, God judges. Remove the wicked man from among yourselves.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭5‬:‭9‬-‭13‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

 

[BNR32FAN]

Paul is writing to his Jewish brethren about (22) the Law of God (e.g. Deuteronomy 6:5) in the inner man and (23) the law of sin in the members of his [former] body and unsaved Jewish brethren.

Paul is not trying to convert his unsaved Jewish brothers by talking down to them, but rather speaking in way to which they can relate that will prick their heart by being freed from struggling with sin by accepting Yeshua as Israel's Messiah and further as their Lord and Savior.

22 For I joyfully concur with the Law of God in the inner man, 23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the Law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.​

On the other hand when speaking to a Christian brother one may quote scrpture to rebuke an attitude of "from time to time" as nominal Christianity for putting up with sin. When instead Christians now abiding in Christ will flee from sin.

Don't you know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, who lives in you and who was given to you by God? You do not belong to yourselves but to God; He bought you for a price. So use your bodies for God's glory.​

Christians (including Pastors) tend to interpret scripture to satisfy the comfort zone of their congreagtion as well as their own comfort zone. Let's face it that more than a few Christians have one foot standing beside the Word of God and the other foot planted in the world as an example that others follow.

And yet we're told not to grieve the Holy Spirit ... not even from "time to time."

Would you display such a bumper sticker on your car or truck when you pull into church parking lot tomorrow or at your work site? Is that the testimony of 21st century Christianity and why some refer to some Christians as hypocrites?

So God's Spirit in the heart of a new [born again] creation in Christ is stronger than the enemy and what was the sin nature of his former members with the result being a new life in Christ.

Paul was speaking in the present tense in Romans 7. FOR WHAT I AM DOING is not speaking about something that he doesn’t do anymore.

“For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good. So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭7‬:‭14‬-‭20‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

There’s not a single past tense statement in that passage.

 

[fhansen]

"Faith" is neither the means nor the end of salvation. God's judgement is based on full knowledge of the thoughts and intents of the heart. And His decision to spare a person from His judgement is solely based on His full knowledge as to whether or not he has really and truly rested from his works and has put his full trust in Christ. His decisions and actions are the "means" to the end and "the end" is that we are spared from His wrath and obtain new life in Christ.

Really? Faith is the means God uses to get us there; faith justifies us, Now why, do you think, must a person be justified? And what does it mean to put trust in Christ, in God, anyway?

No, my point was that none of your (many) dogmas concerning God's forgiveness of sins includes forgiving others as a prerequisite.

Of course it does. I can sum it up for you in a church teaching, in fact:
"At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love."

Catholic teaching is all about, for one thing, showing the love and mercy to others that's been shown to us. And there are many teachings specific to this matter as well from the catechism, such as:

2842 This "as" is not unique in Jesus' teaching: "You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect"; "Be merciful, even as your Father is merciful"; "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another." It is impossible to keep the Lord's commandment by imitating the divine model from outside; there has to be a vital participation, coming from the depths of the heart, in the holiness and the mercy and the love of our God. Only the Spirit by whom we live can make "ours" the same mind that was in Christ Jesus. Then the unity of forgiveness becomes possible and we find ourselves "forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave" us.

I do not see how your statements here point to any sort of agreement with what I said (repeated below for easy reference).

It's all quite simple. Fallen man is given a new spirit and a new heart. We must be remade in the image of Christ, with our cooperation.

"You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; to be made new in the attitude of your minds; and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness." Eph 4:22-23

Catechism, again:
1473 The forgiveness of sin and restoration of communion with God entail the remission of the eternal punishment of sin, but temporal punishment of sin remains. While patiently bearing sufferings and trials of all kinds and, when the day comes, serenely facing death, the Christian must strive to accept this temporal punishment of sin as a grace. He should strive by works of mercy and charity, as well as by prayer and the various practices of penance, to put off completely the "old man" and to put on the "new man."85

How can you say, for instance, that the "old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts" (Eph 4:22) becomes less sinful over time or that "the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness" (Eph 4:24) becomes more righteous and holy over time? And how can you deny that any good that is in a person is due to oneness with Christ in the new man? And how can you live with the growing corruption of the old man not being forgiven at all times? And how can you deny that the lusts of the flesh can only be thwarted by walking in lock step with the Spirit? Don't all these things point to the same thing... namely that "And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness" (Ro 8:10)

It just points to the fact that you must truly overcome sin; yes, in lockstep with the Spirit, and 'through Christ who strengthens me', 'apart from Whom I can do nothing', but 'with Whom all things are possible', not that part of you might sin while the other does not.

 

[AbbaLove]

You need to take to heart chapter 8 and put chapter 7 behind you as does Paul ...

8:9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. 11 And if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of His Spirit who lives in you.​

Your error is not moving beyond sinning from "time to time," and instead taking to heart chapter 8. Too many nominal christians interpret chapter 7 that God actually tolerates sin from "time to time." Paul would be appalled by the vast number of so-called Christians that believe he was still a chief (worse) of sinners even after his conversion. More than a few immature Christians most liekly believe Jesus set the bar too high when He said, Go and sin no more and Stop sinning or something worse may happen. And remember that was before Shavuot (Pentecost) with the Baptism of the Holy Spirit empowering the Apostles with special Gifts.

8:12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.​

Those Christians that interpret chapter 7... that sin is still prevalent from "time to time" believe that was true with Paul after his conversion and so too they believe sin will still dog them from "time to time" (read chapter 8).

Matthew 17:20: “Truly I tell you, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you.”​

And you apparently want to believe that it's normal for a new [born again] creation in Christ to sin from "time to time" because He that is in you isn't as powerful as the enemy that has convinced you that it's normal to sin from "time to time.".

 

[Gregory Thompson]

You need to take to heart chapter 8 and put chapter 7 behind you as does Paul ...

8:9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. 11 And if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of His Spirit who lives in you.​

Your error is not moving beyond sinning from "time to time." by instead taking to heart chapter 8. Too many nominal christians interpret chapter 7 that God actually tolerates sin from "time to time." Paul would be appalled by the vast number of so-called Christians that believe he was still a chief (worse) of sinners even after his conversion. More than a few immature Christians most liekly believe Jesus set the bar too high when He said, Go and sin no more and Stop sinning or something worse may happen. And remember that was before Shavuot (Pentecost) with the Baptism of the Holy Spirit empowering the Apostles.

8:12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.​

Those Christians that interpret chapter 7... that sin is still prevalent from "time to time" believe that was true with Paul after his conversion and so too they believe sin will still dog them from "time to time" (read chapter 8).

Matthew 17:20: “Truly I tell you, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you.”​

And you apparently want to believe that it's normal for a new [born again] creation in Christ to sin from "time to time" because He that is in you isn't as powerful as the enemy that has convinced you that it's normal to sin from "time to time.".

I discern the sin of "coveting to control people" in this post, so I am inclined to believe Christians in general are prone to sin from time to time.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

The message in Romans 2 isn’t about judging others it’s about being a hypocrite, just like what Jesus said in Matthew 7.

“I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people; I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world. But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler not even to eat with such a one. For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church? But those who are outside, God judges. Remove the wicked man from among yourselves.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭5‬:‭9‬-‭13‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

That's not the way I read it.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

Really? Faith is the means God uses to get us there; faith justifies us, Now why, do you think, must a person be justified? And what does it mean to put trust in Christ, in God, anyway?

God justifies us. And He justifies only those who 1) have ceased from their works, and 2) have rested all their hope on Christ. If anyone has not done that yet, they should do it now.

Of course it does. I can sum it up for you in a church teaching, in fact:
"At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love."

Catholic teaching is all about, for one thing, showing the love and mercy to others that's been shown to us. And there are many teachings specific to this matter as well from the catechism, such as:

2842 This "as" is not unique in Jesus' teaching: "You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect"; "Be merciful, even as your Father is merciful"; "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another." It is impossible to keep the Lord's commandment by imitating the divine model from outside; there has to be a vital participation, coming from the depths of the heart, in the holiness and the mercy and the love of our God. Only the Spirit by whom we live can make "ours" the same mind that was in Christ Jesus. Then the unity of forgiveness becomes possible and we find ourselves "forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave" us.

I see you do not want to address forgiveness of others not being required for babtism to wash away past sins, for confession to wash away current grave sins, for venial sins to be forgiven, and for dead people to be prayed out of pergatory. Do all these things require a person to forgive every single tiny offense against him in order for God to forgive his sins?

It's all quite simple. Fallen man is given a new spirit and a new heart. We must be remade in the image of Christ, with our cooperation.

"You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; to be made new in the attitude of your minds; and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness." Eph 4:22-23

Catechism, again:
1473 The forgiveness of sin and restoration of communion with God entail the remission of the eternal punishment of sin, but temporal punishment of sin remains. While patiently bearing sufferings and trials of all kinds and, when the day comes, serenely facing death, the Christian must strive to accept this temporal punishment of sin as a grace. He should strive by works of mercy and charity, as well as by prayer and the various practices of penance, to put off completely the "old man" and to put on the "new man."85

It seems like you embrace the new man being perfect and the old man bein corrupt. And it appears you identify the new man as the "new spirit and new heart" that remakes us in the image of Christ. It aslo seems like 1473 embraces living out the new life we have in Christ in the new man instead of living according to the deceitful lusts of the old man. And it does appear that "the remission of the eternal punishment of sin" is not dependent on putting off the old man and putting on the new man, but comes with being restored upon receiving a new spirit and a new heart. So, what are we arguing about?

It just points to the fact that you must truly overcome sin; yes, in lockstep with the Spirit, and 'through Christ who strengthens me', 'apart from Whom I can do nothing', but 'with Whom all things are possible', not that part of you might sin while the other does not.

Now I'm confused again about your doctrine. I have been given a new spirit and a new heart which restored my communion with God that original sin destroyed. I still have the old man with me, but I live in Christ in the new man, not in the flesh. The old man is corrupt and remains sinful, but the new man is joined to the Lord and is one spirit with Him. I may choose to put on the new man and live out the new life I have in Christ and enjoy the fruits of the Spirit. But if I do not put off the old man on occasion and fulfill its desires, I experience the bad fruits that walking in the flesh produces. Is there ever a point in time that the corruption that may occasionally come forth out of me is from something other than the old man? And is there ever a point in time that the goodness that may come forth from me is from something other than the new man (which is at one with Christ)? The answer to both questions is, "No".

The question isn't about one part of us sinning while the other part of us does not. It is about the body being dead because of it's sin and the spirit being alive because of it's righteousness. All the lenghty NT passages that call us to godly living are calls for us to put off the old man and put on the new man. They do not ask us to overcome sin by being good people. They ask us to accept the reality that in the new man God has separated us from the sinful flesh and made us one spirit with Him. They ask us to live out the truly righteous and holy lives that the new man gives us by walking in lock step with His Spirit so that we may not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.

Whenever we do not fulfill this high calling, God corrects us. He excercises patience and longsuffering in His correction, but He never stops until we turn. He deals with us as with children, which we are. We do not unbecome children when we fail to be corrected immediately. But we finally enjoy the fruits of righteousness when His training is successful.

 

[fhansen]

God justifies us. And He justifies only those who 1) have ceased from their works, and 2) have rested all their hope on Christ. If anyone has not done that yet, they should do it now.

Yes, God makes us just, we cannot do it on our own. We need Him, who gives His righteousness to us based on faith, not the law (Phil 3:9). Then we're finally able to be obedient and the following verses then make perfect sense. He does not take away our freedom to rebel, to harden our hearts all over again, however, which means we can compromise our state of justice, our fellowship with Him, IOW, by persistently living unjustly, returning to the flesh and thereby mocking the sacrifice of Christ. These testify to how we can and should live once justified, once restored to unity with God through His Son:

“If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.” Matt 19:17

“To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.” Rom 2:7

“For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.” Rom 2:13

“Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.” Heb 12:14

“You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.” James 2:24

And he SAID TO ALL , "If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. -Luke 9:23

"See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end. As has just been said:
“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion.” Heb: 3:12-15

I see you do not want to address forgiveness of others not being required for babtism to wash away past sins, for confession to wash away current grave sins, for venial sins to be forgiven, and for dead people to be prayed out of pergatory. Do all these things require a person to forgive every single tiny offense against him in order for God to forgive his sins?

All of those things bring us to or keep us in communion with God through Whom righteousness flows. In any case, a person who is united with God will forgive as He forgives us. Otherwise, we need to question very seriously our relationship with Him: if sin is not being overcome, if love is not blossoming, IOW. Our righteousness and therefore our salvation is defined by that communion and that love. Venial sins do not need to be confessed, BTW.

It seems like you embrace the new man being perfect and the old man bein corrupt. And it appears you identify the new man as the "new spirit and new heart" that remakes us in the image of Christ. It aslo seems like 1473 embraces living out the new life we have in Christ in the new man instead of living according to the deceitful lusts of the old man. And it does appear that "the remission of the eternal punishment of sin" is not dependent on putting off the old man and putting on the new man, but comes with being restored upon receiving a new spirit and a new heart. So, what are we arguing about?

IDK. You brought it up, saying the CC doesn't teach it. The CC teaches that we must make effort to perfect the new man, however, not that he's perfect already in some ethereal or pretend sense-and never distinguishes between the two as if the old man's actions don't count. Again, there will only be one of you standing before God at the end, giving account for all your actions-and it won't be in regard to some rewards or prizes but to your eternal destiny. And we won't be pointing to the "old man" saying, "He made me do it".

Now I'm confused again about your doctrine. I have been given a new spirit and a new heart which restored my communion with God that original sin destroyed. I still have the old man with me, but I live in Christ in the new man, not in the flesh. The old man is corrupt and remains sinful, but the new man is joined to the Lord and is one spirit with Him. I may choose to put on the new man and live out the new life I have in Christ and enjoy the fruits of the Spirit. But if I do not put off the old man on occasion and fulfill its desires, I experience the bad fruits that walking in the flesh produces. Is there ever a point in time that the corruption that may occasionally come forth out of me is from something other than the old man? And is there ever a point in time that the goodness that may come forth from me is from something other than the new man (which is at one with Christ)? The answer to both questions is, "No".

This is a new age theology, new for Christianity, anyway, as of the last 5 centuries only. The old man is the same man that was in rebellion against God. If he continues in that rebellion or returns to it, then you are no better off than before, maybe worse. We can harden our hearts all over again, we can be unfruitful soil where the seed is planted but soon withers and dies.

"It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8 But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned." Heb 6:4-8

"If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.” 2 Pet 2:220-22

“The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.” Gal 5:19-21

“Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.” Gal 6:7-8

“Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.” Rom 8:12-14

The question isn't about one part of us sinning while the other part of us does not. It is about the body being dead because of it's sin and the spirit being alive because of it's righteousness. All the lenghty NT passages that call us to godly living are calls for us to put off the old man and put on the new man. They do not ask us to overcome sin by being good people.

What does this even mean? Good people do good things, while sinners sin. Only God can make us good people. The heart is the seed of all kinds of evil. God changes us from the inside out, giving us new hearts, writing His law on them. And we can resist, so we must make effort, we must strive, struggle, be vigilant, do good, cooperate, "invest our talents", persevere, all with the help of grace. That’s what this is all about.

Whenever we do not fulfill this high calling, God corrects us. He excercises patience and longsuffering in His correction, but He never stops until we turn. He deals with us as with children, which we are. We do not unbecome children when we fail to be corrected immediately. But we finally enjoy the fruits of righteousness when His training is successful.

And yet God doesn’t save all even though He wants none to perish. It’s not lack of faith that separates you from God first of all- its sin! Even as unbelief, itself, is a most basic sin. So faith is the means back to authentic righteousness as it’s the means back to Him, the Source of all truth, righteousness, the Source of love. And, BTW, He did not create you to sin. But only God can make you good, just, holy, righteous, whatever. That’s the point. “Apart from Me you can do nothing.” We must remain in Him-and sinning is not remaining in Him. He’s always on our side, striving to bring us into the fold and keep us there. But we’re the wildcard-we may or may not want Him at the end of the day; we may prefer to remain in our pride and our sin. Otherwise there’d be no reason for hell, which is essentially the absence of God.

Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister. 1 John 3:7-10

God cannot be mocked. We reap what we sow. A mere profession of faith is worthless on its own. Talk is cheap. Living in obedience, living righteously, is not returning to the law, it's returning to God.

“If we turn away from evil out of fear of punishment, we are in the position of slaves. If we pursue the enticement of wages, . . . we resemble mercenaries. Finally if we obey for the sake of the good itself and out of love for him who commands . . . we are in the position of children.” Basil of Caesarea, 4th century bishop

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

Yes, God makes us just, we cannot do it on our own. We need Him, who gives His righteousness to us based on faith, not the law (Phil 3:9). Then we're finally able to be obedient

Why then, after you have been given the righteousness of God (and there is no greater righteousness than that) are you not completely obedient?

and the following verses then make perfect sense. He does not take away our freedom to rebel, to harden our hearts all over again,

Why then do you rebel over and over again?

however, which means we can compromise our state of justice, our fellowship with Him, IOW, by persistently living unjustly, returning to the flesh and thereby mocking the sacrifice of Christ.

Then your only hope is to again obtain His mercy, right? How many chances does He give you to prove yourself worthy of His restoration?

These testify to how we can and should live once justified, once restored to unity with God through His Son:

“If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.” Matt 19:17

“To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.” Rom 2:7

“For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.” Rom 2:13

“Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.” Heb 12:14

“You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.” James 2:24

And he SAID TO ALL , "If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. -Luke 9:23

"See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end. As has just been said:
“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion.” Heb: 3:12-15

All of those things bring us to or keep us in communion with God through Whom righteousness flows...

Venial sins do not need to be confessed, BTW.

It's just too bad, isn't it, that sin always finds its way out of the flesh to destroy our record of perfect righteousness. One sin, and the record is ruined. If your church didn't recognize this fact, then it wouldn't have created confession, pennance, and the designation of "venial sins" that make it easy to dismiss one's sinfulness.

In any case, a person who is united with God will forgive as He forgives us.

I see... A forgiven person always forgives. If he ever fails to forgive, it is proof that he never forgave like he should have. In other words, one failure to forgive (even a tiny debt as in Jesus' story) makes you lose all His forgiveness. I guess the punishment is being cast into prison until you pay the mountain of debts that had been forgiven you.

Otherwise, we need to question very seriously our relationship with Him: if sin is not being overcome, if love is not blossoming, IOW. Our righteousness and therefore our salvation is defined by that communion and that love.

Hmmm... What should cause a sinner (i.e., everyone in the room) to question his salvation? That's a good question. Knowing that whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved, my approach here is to point sinners to the forgiveness of their sins that is available only from Christ. Consistent with that approach, I would think that if a person looks into his heart and finds that he does not have full confidence in Christ, that should be a warning sign to him.

IDK. You brought it up, saying the CC doesn't teach it. The CC teaches that we must make effort to perfect the new man, however, not that he's perfect already in some ethereal or pretend sense-and never distinguishes between the two as if the old man's actions don't count. Again, there will only be one of you standing before God at the end, giving account for all your actions-and it won't be in regard to some rewards or prizes but to your eternal destiny. And we won't be pointing to the "old man" saying, "He made me do it".

As is true with many other spiritual things, we diverge on the old man vs new man teachings of the NT. If you can't see that the old man grows corrupt and that the new man is created according to God in true righteousness and holiness, then you may never understand where your sins come from or where your righteousness comes from. And you may never understand why there is now no condemnation for the sinfulness of your flesh or why you delight in the things of God in the inner man. And you may never understand where the groanings to be free of the sinfulness of the flesh or the sure hope that one day we will be free of it comes from. Your lack of understanding does not necessarily mean you are lost, it just means you don't understand.

This is a new age theology, new for Christianity, anyway, as of the last 5 centuries only.

Nope, lot's older than that. It was fortold by the prophets that did not understand what what they were talking about, but was revealed to us first by Jesus, then by Him to everyone else after He comes to live in their hearts. Can't take that away from anyone who trusts His testimony.

The old man is the same man that was in rebellion against God.

True

If he continues in that rebellion or returns to it, then you are no better off than before, maybe worse.

He does continue in it. I can quote many verses that say this. There is not one verse that says the old man can be trained to be good. The opposite is true... the flesh lusts in adversarial oppposition to the Spirit of God (Ga 5:17). Not one verse says the opposite.

We can harden our hearts all over again, we can be unfruitful soil where the seed is planted but soon withers and dies.

This doctrine is like the person who told me many years ago that salvation is like us driving a car with God in the back seat telling us how to drive and it is up to us to not drive the car into the ditch. His screen name was Swordmaster.

"It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8 But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned." Heb 6:4-8

"If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.” 2 Pet 2:220-22

“The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.” Gal 5:19-21

“Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.” Gal 6:7-8

“Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.” Rom 8:12-14

What does this even mean? Good people do good things, while sinners sin.

So don't sin, and you're good. But it won't work for you if you sin (even a little sin... like eating an apple when told not to)

Only God can make us good people. The heart is the seed of all kinds of evil. God changes us from the inside out, giving us new hearts, writing His law on them. And we can resist, so we must make effort, we must strive, struggle, be vigilant, do good, cooperate, "invest our talents", persevere, all with the help of grace. That’s what this is all about.

Good luck with that. Don't let Him down. Your future is in your own hands.

And yet God doesn’t save all even though He wants none to perish. It’s not lack of faith that separates you from God first of all- its sin! Even as unbelief, itself, is a most basic sin. So faith is the means back to authentic righteousness as it’s the means back to Him, the Source of all truth, righteousness, the Source of love. And, BTW, He did not create you to sin. But only God can make you good, just, holy, righteous, whatever. That’s the point. “Apart from Me you can do nothing.” We must remain in Him-and sinning is not remaining in Him.

So don't sin even a little sin, or else you are not in Him.

He’s always on our side, striving to bring us into the fold and keep us there. But we’re the wildcard-we may or may not want Him at the end of the day; we may prefer to remain in our pride and our sin. Otherwise there’d be no reason for hell, which is essentially the absence of God.

Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister. 1 John 3:7-10

God cannot be mocked. We reap what we sow. A mere profession of faith is worthless on its own. Talk is cheap. Living in obedience, living righteously, is not returning to the law, it's returning to God.

“If we turn away from evil out of fear of punishment, we are in the position of slaves. If we pursue the enticement of wages, . . . we resemble mercenaries. Finally if we obey for the sake of the good itself and out of love for him who commands . . . we are in the position of children.” Basil of Caesarea, 4th century bishop

All this comes from the same theological position, which I reject. None of our goodness is good enough. We won't prove our worthiness of salvation even if God doesn't hold our little sins against us. That's what the Bible says, that's what the Spirit says, and that is what I say. It's not new, it's old. Very old.

 

[fhansen]

Why then, after you have been given the righteousness of God (and there is no greater righteousness than that) are you not completely obedient?

Because from beginning to end the human will remains as part of the equation, according to God's wisdom and His purposes for us. The draw to autonomy from God that Adam gave into, the draw to the offerings and values of the world, the draw of concupiscence, still remain for us to battle against. And within that battle as we're tested and as we struggle, we define and confirm and strengthen our choice-or not.
"Nevertheless, many of the leaders believed in Him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess Him, for fear that they would be put out of the synagogue. For they loved praise from men more than praise from God." John 12:42-43

Faith is a gift. But it has competition. The righteousness of God is His seed planted within us. It must be valued, it must be nourished, it must be cultivated and grown.

Why then do you rebel over and over again?

Again, because the human will remains involved. And scripture makes it clear with warnings and admonitions to believers that we must do our part in cooperating with grace. The Parable of the Talents in Matt 25 sheds light on this. Grace is given. Whether or not we "invest" it, whether or not we accept and act upon it throughout whatever time we have, is another story. Apparently some turn back away from God, failing to persevere, proving to be poor soil where His seed was planted, takes root, but later withers and dies.

As is true with many other spiritual things, we diverge on the old man vs new man teachings of the NT. If you can't see that the old man grows corrupt and that the new man is created according to God in true righteousness and holiness, then you may never understand where your sins come from or where your righteousness comes from. And you may never understand why there is now no condemnation for the sinfulness of your flesh or why you delight in the things of God in the inner man. And you may never understand where the groanings to be free of the sinfulness of the flesh or the sure hope that one day we will be free of it comes from. Your lack of understanding does not necessarily mean you are lost, it just means you don't understand.

Or that you don't understand. Sin earns death. And the way that condemnation is overcome through Christ is that he gives us not only the forgiveness of past sins but the model and the grace for overcoming sin. We are to follow Him. Turning to God is a turning away from sin. At the end of the day, again, there is only one you and faith, alone, will not excuse you from the penalty of future sin. Faith is actually the foundation for overcoming sin, by our being with God now rather than apart from Him as we were before our reconciliation took place.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people." Jer 31:33

Then your only hope is to again obtain His mercy, right? How many chances does He give you to prove yourself worthy of His restoration

How many times did Jesus say for us to forgive our neighbor? God's mercy is ever-present, for all. Whether or not we even care is a different story. If we're persistently engaged in gross and grave sin, we've already turned away from Him and His love and we're destroying love in ourselves, the opposite of the path of Jesus. The gospel isn't only about forgiveness of sin but about real change in us.

Hmmm... What should cause a sinner (i.e., everyone in the room) to question his salvation?

By their fruits you will know them, any profession of faith not withstanding. What was the criteria for separating the sheep from the goats in Matt 25? Answer: what they did, for "the least of these". Again, we'll be judged on our love, without which we are nothing (1 Cor 13:2). Faith is the ticket to that love but all three virtues, faith, hope, and love, of which love is the greatest, are all gifts, and human choices to accept and act upon them.

And you may never understand why there is now no condemnation for the sinfulness of your flesh

Rom 7 tells us that the law is good, right, holy, spiritual, but that we are not. What is the answer to this dilemma? Jesus Christ! Because through Him, who strengthens me, I can overcome the flesh.
"The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God." Gal 5:19-21

There's no pretense at righteousness, no split personality, We either move towards becoming the people we were created to be-or we don't.

Nope, lot's older than that. It was fortold by the prophets that did not understand what what they were talking about, but was revealed to us first by Jesus, then by Him to everyone else after He comes to live in their hearts. Can't take that away from anyone who trusts His testimony.

Nonsense, none of the churches, east and west, or the ECFs, believe as you do here. For a better understanding of this matter, check out post #669 here to see how the early church dealt with this: SALVATION

He does continue in it. I can quote many verses that say this. There is not one verse that says the old man can be trained to be good. The opposite is true... the flesh lusts in adversarial oppposition to the Spirit of God (Ga 5:17). Not one verse says the opposite.

Man didn't become something new, as if a new nature was added, at the Fall. Rather, he lost something in his prideful bid for autonomy; he lost God, connection to the Vine without which man is dead, no life in him. That alienation from the Source of our existence defines the state sometimes known as "original sin".

od in the back seat telling us how to drive and it is up to us to not drive the car into the ditch. His screen name was Swordmaster.

Wouldn't know about him but my description is sure and true in any case.

So don't sin, and you're good. But it won't work for you if you sin (even a little sin... like eating an apple when told not to)

No, we're not under the law. And realize that you are excusing sin, making the new covenant an excuse to remain in our sins, just as we prefer anyway. That's satan's job, not God's, as if any and all behavior can now be justified by pointing to the old man and saying, "He made me do it!" Putting off the old man isn't a sidenote; it's necessary for salvation. Unless we ignore a lot of Scripture.

Good luck with that. Don't let Him down. Your future is in your own hands.

Good luck-in ignoring His Word. That's what Adam did.

So don't sin even a little sin, or else you are not in Him.

The church has worked all this out centuries ago. It takes an amount of courage to research it, though.

All this comes from the same theological position, which I reject. None of our goodness is good enough. We won't prove our worthiness of salvation even if God doesn't hold our little sins against us. That's what the Bible says, that's what the Spirit says, and that is what I say. It's not new, it's old. Very old.

The basis of the New Covenant: "Apart from Me you can do nothing", John 15:5, while "With God all things are possible", Matt 19:26. You give God too little credit.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

I say hermeneutics are worthless if they present the Bible as speaking untruth.

Hermeneutics deals with how we interpret. We interpret all that time, not only scripture but also our lived experience.
I think what you think is worthless is anything that challenges your own interpretation of the Bible.

 

[Clare73]

Or if the intention of the author is misunderstood and misinterpreted

John's words and meaning in 1 Jn 5:13-20 are very clear.

You get to believe him or not.

I do.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

Because from beginning to end the human will remains as part of the equation, according to God's wisdom and His purposes for us. The draw to autonomy from God that Adam gave into, the draw to the offerings and values of the world, the draw of concupiscence, still remain for us to battle against. And within that battle as we're tested and as we struggle, we define and confirm and strengthen our choice-or not.
"Nevertheless, many of the leaders believed in Him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess Him, for fear that they would be put out of the synagogue. For they loved praise from men more than praise from God." John 12:42-43

Faith is a gift. But it has competition. The righteousness of God is His seed planted within us. It must be valued, it must be nourished, it must be cultivated and grown.

Again, because the human will remains involved. And scripture makes it clear with warnings and admonitions to believers that we must do our part in cooperating with grace. The Parable of the Talents in Matt 25 sheds light on this. Grace is given. Whether or not we "invest" it, whether or not we accept and act upon it throughout whatever time we have, is another story. Apparently some turn back away from God, failing to persevere, proving to be poor soil where His seed was planted, takes root, but later withers and dies.

Or that you don't understand. Sin earns death. And the way that condemnation is overcome through Christ is that he gives us not only the forgiveness of past sins but the model and the grace for overcoming sin. We are to follow Him. Turning to God is a turning away from sin. At the end of the day, again, there is only one you and faith, alone, will not excuse you from the penalty of future sin. Faith is actually the foundation for overcoming sin, by our being with God now rather than apart from Him as we were before our reconciliation took place.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people." Jer 31:33

How many times did Jesus say for us to forgive our neighbor? God's mercy is ever-present, for all. Whether or not we even care is a different story. If we're persistently engaged in gross and grave sin, we've already turned away from Him and His love and we're destroying love in ourselves, the opposite of the path of Jesus. The gospel isn't only about forgiveness of sin but about real change in us.

By their fruits you will know them, any profession of faith not withstanding. What was the criteria for separating the sheep from the goats in Matt 25? Answer: what they did, for "the least of these". Again, we'll be judged on our love, without which we are nothing (1 Cor 13:2). Faith is the ticket to that love but all three virtues, faith, hope, and love, of which love is the greatest, are all gifts, and human choices to accept and act upon them.

Rom 7 tells us that the law is good, right, holy, spiritual, but that we are not. What is the answer to this dilemma? Jesus Christ! Because through Him, who strengthens me, I can overcome the flesh.
"The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God." Gal 5:19-21

There's no pretense at righteousness, no split personality, We either move towards becoming the people we were created to be-or we don't.

Nonsense, none of the churches, east and west, or the ECFs, believe as you do here. For a better understanding of this matter, check out post #669 here to see how the early church dealt with this: SALVATION

Man didn't become something new, as if a new nature was added, at the Fall. Rather, he lost something in his prideful bid for autonomy; he lost God, connection to the Vine without which man is dead, no life in him. That alienation from the Source of our existence defines the state sometimes known as "original sin".

Wouldn't know about him but my description is sure and true in any case.

No, we're not under the law. And realize that you are excusing sin, making the new covenant an excuse to remain in our sins, just as we prefer anyway. That's satan's job, not God's, as if any and all behavior can now be justified by pointing to the old man and saying, "He made me do it!" Putting off the old man isn't a sidenote; it's necessary for salvation. Unless we ignore a lot of Scripture.

Good luck-in ignoring His Word. That's what Adam did.

The church has worked all this out centuries ago. It takes an amount of courage to research it, though.

The basis of the New Covenant: "Apart from Me you can do nothing", John 15:5, while "With God all things are possible", Matt 19:26. You give God too little credit.

You give man too much credit.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

There are many who view salvation as being in man's hand, to gain or maintain by godly living. Most, if not all that I have encountered, say this is possible only with God's "help". But this caviat does not support their argument because any failures to live as God wants will never be God's fault. It only adds to the condemnation that is heaped upon the person who fails to take advantage of God's help.

Whenever I come across these people, I try to help them understand that they still have the flesh which they inherited from their parents through physical procreation. Their flesh is corrupt and lusts in adversarial opposition to God. It never gets better, or clean, or holy. I try to help them understand that their sinfulness which comes from their flesh is their responsibility. And when they are tempted, it is becasue their lusts are aroused. And when they give in to temptation, they refuse to take the way out that God always provides. At no time, whether they resist temptation or give in to it, are they excused for having desires in the flesh which draw them away from God to sin.

My point in bringing this up is to teach them that their rightness with God is not because they do what is required of them. If they are right with God at all, it is because all their sins and sinfulness is forgiven and as a result they are not under God's condemnation, and it is because He created in them a new man that is "truly righteous and holy" and who has been joined to the Lord. This is what separated them from sin and made them one spirit with Him.

The only way to live a successful Christian life is to 1) understand that all your sins and sinfulness have been forgiven, 2) that you have new life in Christ Jesus by virtue of His presence in your heart that made you a new creature, and 3) with this midset that you have been joind to the Lord, serve Him in the newness of the Spirit. If you walk as the Spirit leads you from the depths of your own heart, then and only then will you thwart the desires of your flesh.

Why is there so little understanding of this? It would be easy to blame bad teachers or doctrinal inertia. But the blame lies with the individual who refuses to believe Him when He teaches them what He has done for them when He came to live in their hearts. This points to the only way back to a vibrant Christ-centered Christian community -- Trust Jesus as He leads, guides, teaches, directs, corrects, and comforts us from the depths of our own hearts.

 

[fhansen]

The only way to live a successful Christian life is to 1) understand that all your sins and sinfulness have been forgiven, 2) that you have new life in Christ Jesus by virtue of His presence in your heart that made you a new creature, and 3) with this midset that you have been joind to the Lord, serve Him in the newness of the Spirit. If you walk as the Spirit leads you from the depths of your own heart, then and only then will you thwart the desires of your flesh.

If by "all your sins and sinfulness have been forgiven" means all sins are forgiven, past, present and future, without regard to whether or not one is now overcoming sin, then you're not grasping the full picture of Christianity.

"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God." Rom 8:12-14

Other than that your paragraph above is good. It just leaves out the fact that believers can and must live as God's family should, by virtue of being a member of that family, united with Him. That makes us a slave to righteousness that results in eternal life rather than a slave to sin that leads to death (Rom 6:20-22). If we're living like children of hell then were not even His regardless of some novel concepts we've arrived at by private interpretations of selected Scriptural verses.

This separating of the old man from the new in such a way that it effectively allows us to remain in our sins is a doctrine of satan, not of God. God's very patient, but not a fool. He wants the best for and from us and that ultimately means to become who He created us to be. The old man isn't a separate self; he's just us in our weakened, alienated, fallen state, still in rebellion against God, still living outside of the truth of who He created us to be. It's a process, this drawing near to Him, a journey, a struggle, and a very, very good and worthwhile one- incomparably so. It's the reason we were created to begin with.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

If by "all your sins and sinfulness have been forgiven" means all sins are forgiven, past, present and future, without regard to whether or not one is now overcoming sin, then you're not grasping the full picture of Christianity.

"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God." Rom 8:12-14

Other than that your paragraph above is good. It just leaves out the fact that believers can and must live as God's family should, by virtue of being a member of that family, united with Him. That makes us a slave to righteousness that results in eternal life rather than a slave to sin that leads to death (Rom 6:20-22). If we're living like children of hell then were not even His regardless of some novel concepts we've arrived at by private interpretations of selected Scriptural verses.

This separating of the old man from the new in such a way that it effectively allows us to remain in our sins is a doctrine of satan, not of God. God's very patient, but not a fool. He wants the best for and from us and that ultimately means to become who He created us to be. The old man isn't a separate self; he's just us in our weakened, alienated, fallen state, still in rebellion against God, still living outside of the truth of who He created us to be. It's a process, this drawing near to Him, a journey, a struggle, and a very, very good and worthwhile one- incomparably so. It's the reason we were created to begin with.

Your POV requires you to not take responsibility for the sinfulness of your own sinful flesh.

 

[fhansen]

Your POV requires you to not take responsibility for the sinfulness of your own sinful flesh.

What does that mean? For all practical purposes your POV requires you to take no responsibility at all for sin whereas with my POV I know that my sin can cause my death. Think about it: Jesus says we must forgive others their sins in order for us to be forgiven but you apparently say no. He says we must obey the commandments to enter eternal life but you deny this. Paul says we must do good and also overcome sin/deeds of the flesh in order to gain eternal life but you deny this as well. At the end of the day sin doesn't even seem to matter in your theology.

 

[ladodgers6]

He says we must obey the commandments to enter eternal life but you deny this.

Didn't the rich young ruler boast to Christ that he kept all the commandments? What did Jesus say to him? But to be clear here, you are absolutely correct one must completely keep all that is written in the Law to enter heaven without a single blemish of sin. Meaning this person has to be perfectly righteous and holy. So, please tell me who has ever done that after the Fall? Besides Jesus a course.

What you are missing here fhansen, is that no one is good, all have fallen short of the glory of God. All have sinned and are under the curse of the Law. Why? Under the curse of the Law, because the Law brings knowledge of sin, which then brings God judgement and wrath against it. This is Law preaching to expose our sinful condition before a Holy God and the need for Mercy, which is the only place for a sinner! And sinners need a Redeemer, not exhortation (directions or DIY project to save yourself). No sinner can ever save himself through his/hers activity (works), of any kind.

Look here at what Paul says in Romans 10:

1 Brothers, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for them is that they may be saved. 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For, being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

So, here you have Jews who have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. What is Paul saying here? These Jews think they don't need the Gospel, because the Gospel is for sinners, not righteous men. They seek to establish their own righteousness and do not submit to God's righteousness. What does Paul mean by this? Well, instead of having Faith in the Gospel promise and receive the Righteousness of God, they refuse to submit and accept this. Why? because it is a stumbling block for the Jews. They refuse to submit that Free Righteousness could be given Freely through the Proclamation of the Gospel Promise. For Christ is the end of the Law for Righteousness to everyone who believes. Meaning Christ merited the Righteousness by fulfilling the Law by His Active/Passive Obedience which is given or imputed to those who Believe in Christ and what he has done.​

 

[setst777]

Define what you mean by both words —"stopped" and "sinning".

According to scripture, all the redeemed stop sinning. So be consistent in your use of the terms. (Not saying you aren't consistent, but trying to forestall the multiple dimensions of your answer.)

Stop means stop. The word "sinning" or "sins" is a present and continuous action, meaning: "one who practices sin, or is living in one or more sins," as the Bible defines sin - a slaving to fulfill the any desires of the flesh as part of this world in any number of ways, which is contrary to serving or following Lord Jesus into a sanctified life of righteousness and love. Lord Jesus said we can only have one Master. Either you serve (practice) one or the other. So, choose this day whom you will serve.

1 John 2:15-17 (NIV) John is addressing and admonishing born-again Christians 15 Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, love for the Father is not in them. 16 For everything in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life - comes not from the Father but from the world. 17 The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever.

The Born-Again Christian cannot keep on sinning, but that does not mean he never commits any sin; for Christians will, because of the weakness in our flesh, commit sin in thought, word or deed, although that is not our desire, and we commit to not sin, following Christ into a sanctified life.

But the born-again Christian who says he never commits any sins is making Christ a liar, according to John (1 John 1:10).

1 John 1:5-10 (WEB) John is addressing and admonishing born-again Christians 5 This is the message which we [Christians] have heard from him and announce to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6 If we [Christians] say that we [Christians] have fellowship with him and walk in the darkness, we lie, and don’t tell the truth. 7 But if we [Christians] walk in the light, as he is in the light, we [Christians] have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ, his Son, cleanses us [Christians] from all sin. 8 If we [Christians] say that we [Christians] have no sin, we [Christians] deceive ourselves [Christians], and the truth is not in us [Christians]. 9 If we [Christians] confess our [Christians] sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us [Christians] the sins, and to cleanse us [Christians] from all unrighteousness. 10 If we [Christians] say that we haven’t sinned, we [Christians] make him a liar, and his word is not in us [Christians].

Why do you think we pray the Lord's Prayer? "Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us."

Although a born-again Christian cannot anymore live in sin, that is only true if the born-gain Christian remains to remain in "the faith."

A born-again Christian (having both the Father and the Son), must remain in Christ by faith to remain in the Son and the Father.

1 John 2:24 (WEB) John is addressing and admonishing born-again Christians Therefore, as for you, let that remain in you which you heard from the beginning. If that which you heard from the beginning remains in you, you also will remain in the Son, and in the Father.

1 John 2:28 (WEB) Now, little children [born-again Christians], remain in him, that when he appears, we [Christians] may have boldness, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

If the Christain remains in Christ by keeping his commandments, then God also will remain in us by His Spirit.

John 3:24 (WEB) He who keeps his commandments remains in him, and he in him. By this we know that he remains in us, by the Spirit which he gave us.

As we (born-again Christians) love (continuous) one another, God remains in us.
We must continue to love one another for God to remain in us.

1 John 4:12 (WEB) If we love one another, God remains in us, and his love has been perfected in us.

1 John 4:16 (WEB) God is love, and he who remains in love remains in God, and God remains in him.