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If Trump Loses, Elites Will Rule Unchallenged For Decades

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rjs330

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That's how taxes have operated for most of modern history. And it's not a Marxist idea, progressive taxes pre-date Marx by about 600 years.

If you look at the history monetary systems in Western Europe, taxes were initially applied to a small, wealthy minority - predominately the nobility, landowners and certain types of merchants/traders. Hard numbers are difficult to come by, but this was probably no more than 15% to 20% of the population until the mid 1500s (with the exceptions of some Italian city states and the Spanish).

The tax base broadened as time progressed, but even then it was always the top earners who payed the most taxes, while the low earners paid less or zero.

The English poll taxes of the 1300s are a good example - the tax for richest in society was 1600 pence. This was graduated down to 160 pence for the nobility, clergy and certain individuals. Commoners paid MUCH less, somewhere between 1 and 4 pence. Those with no wealth ("actual beggars") paid no poll tax.

Income taxes in the modern sense were only applied at the start of the 1800s (about 20 years before Marx was born). The first English income taxes were progressive from the beginning, and were deliberately structured to pull much more heavily from the rich than they did from the commons. The poorest paid under 1% of their annual income, the richest paid about 10%.

The same is true in the US - the first income tax was only applicable to a wealthy minority (about 5-10% of the population)



You might want to do a little more research on that phrase before attributing it to Marx.

33 And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.
34 Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,
35 And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.
I honestly don't know why people continue to use those verses to support taking from some and giving to others. It's a total lie. It's apostate doctrine. Why people use it for support of taking is beyond me. Lying about what the scripture says is a terrible thing to do.

Yes all taxes are Marxist in the way they are used. When taken from some according to their ability and given to others according to their need.

Now I'm not saying by any stretch if the imagination that we should never do that. I'm perfectly happy to participate in the Marxist system to a point.
 
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Pommer

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Yes all taxes are Marxist in the way they are used. When taken from some according to their ability and given to others according to their need.
Were taxes “Marxist” before 1848?
 
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stevil

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That's how taxes have operated for most of modern history. And it's not a Marxist idea, progressive taxes pre-date Marx by about 600 years.
It's a right wing fear tactic to try and scare voters away from the Democratic Party.
Try and label as Marxists or Socialists or communists. It's a very tired and disingenuous tactic, but that what they keep doing because they got very little else.
 
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stevil

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Yes all taxes are Marxist in the way they are used. When taken from some according to their ability and given to others according to their need.

Now I'm not saying by any stretch if the imagination that we should never do that. I'm perfectly happy to participate in the Marxist system to a point.
What is the point of your argument then?
 
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rjs330

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Were taxes “Marxist” before 1848?
Yup if they were taken from those according to their ability and given to those who had need.

Like I said I'm okay with some of that. Marx just put words to it. If memory serves most taxes were taken from from everyone and then just given and hoarded by the governing powers to be used as they saw fit. Often nit given to those in need but given as favors or to build armies, or pet projects etc. Most of the time the poor got little to nothing despite the fact they still paid.

Marx idea was a bit different and in today's society we see much more of that philosophy in our tax systems and how they are used.

Tge US didn't even have federal income tax until the Civil War and it was revealed in 1872. It wasn't until 1913 that it was reinstated with the 16th ammendment.
 
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rjs330

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What is the point of your argument then?
If you've been on the boards a while people know I'm a constitutional conservative and not communist, Marxist or socialist. When I said I favored a flat tax or even a graduated one they said I was supporting a Marxist system. I merely pointed out that all taxes today are Marxist and then the debate started as to whether they are or aren't. Hope that helps. Taxes in the US have a Marxist bent today and progressives want more of it.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Yup if they were taken from those according to their ability and given to those who had need.

It's a bit weird calling God a Marxist.

"At the end of every three years you shall bring out all the tithe of your produce in the same year and lay it up within your towns. And the Levite, because he has no portion or inheritance with you, and the foreigner, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your towns, shall come and eat and be filled, that the LORD your God may bless you in all the work of your hands that you do." - Deuteronomy 14:28-19

-CryptoLutheran
 
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CRAZY_CAT_WOMAN

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He doesn't consider himself to be an elitist. However, even if he did, the vast majority of people in power who do oppose Donald Trump are indeed elitists in my opinion.
Trump and is rich friends are elites. And not in a good way. He cares about the rich. And he will take care of the rich.
 
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stevil

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If you've been on the boards a while people know I'm a constitutional conservative and not communist, Marxist or socialist. When I said I favored a flat tax or even a graduated one they said I was supporting a Marxist system. I merely pointed out that all taxes today are Marxist and then the debate started as to whether they are or aren't. Hope that helps. Taxes in the US have a Marxist bent today and progressives want more of it.
OK, you were defending yourself from a claim someone made against you. got it.

As far as I can tell, no one on this forum is a Marxist, a communist or a socialist.
Well, there ,might be some Russians posting propaganda, but I have no proof of that.

When did Marxism first start?
When did taxes first start?

I'm pretty sure taxes predate Marxism.
 
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Richard T

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No. Flat rate tax has person A paying a thousand, and person B paying a million. Thats not fair. In fact its straight up Marxist - "from each according to his ability".

Whats fair is a flat figure tax. Everybody pays the same amount. Say $30k, or whatever is needed. No one pays more than others.
So when someone can't pay do you put them in jail? Besides God's tithe was a a specific amount but rather a flat percentage.
 
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rjs330

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It's a bit weird calling God a Marxist.

"At the end of every three years you shall bring out all the tithe of your produce in the same year and lay it up within your towns. And the Levite, because he has no portion or inheritance with you, and the foreigner, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your towns, shall come and eat and be filled, that the LORD your God may bless you in all the work of your hands that you do." - Deuteronomy 14:28-19

-CryptoLutheran
You forget that Israel gave 10% every year. It was only every three years the t
10% was given to those. It wasn't every year all the time. So it fit really fit the tax method of today and doesn't fit the Marxist ideology.
 
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ViaCrucis

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You forget that Israel gave 10% every year. It was only every three years the t
10% was given to those. It wasn't every year all the time. So it fit really fit the tax method of today and doesn't fit the Marxist ideology.

You just got done saying taxation is Marxist.
And why does how often it happened change anything? Is it less Marxist because it was done every three years rather than some other time frame?

I'm getting the impression that "Marxist" just means "I don't like that", and has no consistent application.

Either taxes are Marxist, or they aren't.
Either wealth redistribution is wrong, or it isn't.

I didn't forget anything.
But this kind of moral relativism and relativism in regard to truth is impossible to keep up with.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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SimplyMe

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So when someone can't pay do you put them in jail? Besides God's tithe was a a specific amount but rather a flat percentage.

OTOH, God always had "programs" for the poor, as well. Two key ideas were the idea of Jubilee and the fact that farmers were ordered not to harvest from the edges of their fields or to pick up anything they harvested that dropped -- with the idea that the poor would come and be able to get what they needed.
 
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