SALVATION

[AbbaLove]

Speaking of disregarding scripture I asked you about these two verses twice already and you never replied.

Sola Scriptura ​

Are you going to address them this time or are you going to continue disregarding them again?

We agree with Sola Scriptura ... except if it upsets the comfort zone of a sinner that the enemy has convinced a nominal or backsliden believer should think that it's impossible to stop sinning. If so then how can one become sanctified (holy/righteous) ...

"No, Lord,” she said. And Jesus said, “Neither do I. Go and sin no more.”(John 8:11)​

Later Jesus found him at the temple and said to him, “See, you are well again. Stop sinning or something worse may happen to you.” (Jphn 5:14) ​

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But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. (1 Corinthians 6:11)​

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Sola Scriptura ​

 

[BNR32FAN]

Sola Scriptura ​

We agree with Sola Scriptura ... except if it upsets the comfort zone of a sinner that the enemy has convinced a nominal or backsliden believer should think that it's impossible to stop sinning. If so then how can one become sanctified (holy/righteous) ...

"No, Lord,” she said. And Jesus said, “Neither do I. Go and sin no more.”(John 8:11)​

Later Jesus found him at the temple and said to him, “See, you are well again. Stop sinning or something worse may happen to you.” (Jphn 5:14) ​

​

But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. (1 Corinthians 6:11)​

​

Sola Scriptura ​

You didn’t answer my question. Do you know anyone who has stopped sinning?

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

How does James 5:19-20 fit into that interpretation of those verses given in the last paragraph of your post my friend?

“My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.”
‭‭James‬ ‭5‬:‭19‬-‭20‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

I don't see James 5:19-20 as contradicting what I said. I have tried on many occasions to turn sinners who are among us from the error of their ways. On some occasions they appeared to turn and to be saved by God and on others they did not. Of course, as we have discussed, my opinion about which ones turned and were saved by God is not the final word on their salvation, since I cannot see into their hearts.

 

[AbbaLove]

You didn’t answer my question. Do you know anyone who has stopped sinning?

Have no remembrance (reason) to believe that my godly [prayful] mother ever sinned. Even if you know of no one it's still poor theology to justify your actions as why it's impossible for you to stop sinning. Instead of basing your theology on the sinful behavior of others ... instead trust in the Lord (Proverbs 3:5-8).

1 Timothy 1:15 reads: This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. THIS IS THE SCRIPTURE THAT THE CHRISTIANS WHO ARE ENSLAVED TO SIN LOVE TO QUOTE. The people who teach this don't understand the literary concept of the Historical Present tense (Which Paul employed in this passage). For everywhere else Paul commands us live holy and to be holy for God is holy. And to become as His indentured [bond] servants to His righteousness that glorifies God, rather than continuing to sin.​

With the Lord all things are possible when born again with the Holy Spirit's guidance. You need fellowship that believes in Sola Scriptura so as not to misinterpret scripture.

God Bless You and Yours as you reach out to Him and He to you

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

Sorry, the gutting has been done by novel gospels around 5 centuries old now. I've been quite clear, giving the fuller-orbed understanding of faith and its purpose. Faith means relationship with God, to come to know and to enter right relationship with Him, a relationship that was snubbed by Adam at the Fall, and which Jesus came to reconcile, a relationship which is the basis of justice for man-that which makes him just, while alienation from Him is the basis of fallen man's injustice. Jesus is the express image of God. Everything Jesus said and did is an expression of who God is; when we see Him we see God. When we believe in Him we believe in God. The following verses help on this:

"And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him." Heb 11:6​

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"He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake. Through Him you believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and glorified Him, and so your faith and hope are in God." 1 Pet 1:20-21​

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"Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." John 17:3​

You are not refuting my charge, you are proving that my charge is true. When we say, that God has chosen to save those who believe, we do not define "believe" as "to come to know and to enter right relationship with Him, a relationship that was snubbed by Adam at the Fall, and which Jesus came to reconcile...".

You're skirting the question. You say that all we must do is to believe in order for our sins to be forgiven. But Jesus says we must forgive others their sins in order for our sins to be forgiven. A change must occur in us, towards righteousness, towards love, to put it best. And if we fail at this righteousness then, yes, we can confess and be restored to it.

"If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness." 1 John 1:9​

I see you ignored my points and my challenge. So I will not give you the promised answer that was contingent on your response.

Alright, that's good, so righteousness isn't merely declared of or imputed to us-but given as a result of justification-we're changed in our nature and in our actions. So, keeping in mind that John isn't speaking of a merely forensically declared righteousness but of actual sinlessness, are you saying that a born again person never sins?

We are only one person, btw, and God isn't interested in pretending that we're righteous when we're not.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I do not think Catholicism distinguishes between "old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts" (Eph 4:22) and "the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness" (Eph 4:24). So, if I'm right, it would make sense that Catholics would be generally ingnorant of the existance of the old man and the new man and would not know what it means to "put off" the one or "put on" the other. And it would explain why they think the old man can be trained to be righteous while refusing to accept the true righteousness and holiness of the new man.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I don't see James 5:19-20 as contradicting what I said. I have tried on many occasions to turn sinners who are among us from the error of their ways. On some occasions they appeared to turn and to be saved by God and on others they did. Of course, as we have discussed, my opinion about which ones turned and were saved by God is not the final word on their salvation, since I cannot see into their hearts.

My apologies perhaps I misunderstood your post brother.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

My apologies perhaps I misunderstood your post brother.

You may have understood it correctly. I am defining "sinners who are among us" as lost people intermingled with the saved ones. This is to point out how a "lose your salvation" verse can hang on a tenuous thread.

 

[fhansen]

You are not refuting my charge, you are proving that my charge is true. When we say, that God has chosen to save those who believe, we do not define "believe" as "to come to know and to enter right relationship with Him, a relationship that was snubbed by Adam at the Fall, and which Jesus came to reconcile...".

Of course we do. That reconciled state of being is the whole purpose of the the new covenant-and therefore of our faith. It's the target, that which faith accomplishes.

I see you ignored my points and my challenge. So I will not give you the promised answer that was contingent on your response.

Or I'll translate. You'd prefer not to answer the question even though I addressed your challenge well enough.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I do not think Catholicism distinguishes between "old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts" (Eph 4:22) and "the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness" (Eph 4:24). So, if I'm right, it would make sense that Catholics would be generally ingnorant of the existance of the old man and the new man and would not know what it means to "put off" the one or "put on" the other. And it would explain why they think the old man can be trained to be righteous while refusing to accept the true righteousness and holiness of the new man.

No, the CC agrees with this in general, properly understood . It's just that there's only one you, who's either growing towards righteous or away from it. and you will be judged according to what you do, not as if one side of you is already perfected and God will look only at that while the other side and its actions will be disregarded.

 

[BNR32FAN]

You may have understood it correctly. I am defining "sinners who are among us" as lost people intermingled with the saved ones. This is to point out how a "lose your salvation" verse can hang on a tenuous thread.

Ok so I didn’t misunderstand you. So you’re saying that if someone turns away then they never actually believed?

 

[AbbaLove]

You didn’t answer my question. Do you know anyone who has stopped sinning?

See #844

It would be helpful for you to have fellowship with a born again (Titus 3:5) Christian that believes the Lord desires to help His children follow after Him with all their heart ....

5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;
6 in all your ways submit to Him,
and He will make your paths straight.
7 Do not be wise in your own eyes;
fear the Lord and shun evil.
8 This will bring health to your body
and nourishment to your bones.​

 

[BNR32FAN]

Have no remembrance (reason) to believe that my godly [prayful] mother ever sinned. Even if you know of no one it's still poor theology to justify your actions as why it's impossible for you to stop sinning. Instead of basing your theology on the sinful behavior of others ... instead trust in the Lord (Proverbs 3:5-8).

1 Timothy 1:15 reads: This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. THIS IS THE SCRIPTURE THAT THE CHRISTIANS WHO ARE ENSLAVED TO SIN LOVE TO QUOTE. The people who teach this don't understand the literary concept of the Historical Present tense (Which Paul employed in this passage). For everywhere else Paul commands us live holy and to be holy for God is holy. And to become as His indentured [bond] servants to His righteousness that glorifies God, rather than continuing to sin.​

With the Lord all things are possible when born again with the Holy Spirit's guidance. You need fellowship that believes in Sola Scriptura so as not to misinterpret scripture.

God Bless You and Yours as you reach out to Him and He to you

I never try to justify my sin. You act as if I don’t try to stop sinning and you don’t even know what my sins are. My sins are usually worry and doubt. Worrying about paying my bills and providing for my family and sometimes forgetting that God has always provided for us because times of tribulation eventually come to everyone. Sometimes God does allow His children to fall into hard times. Sometimes I get overwhelmed by anger like when someone on the freeway does something stupid that almost causes me to get into an accident. My sins aren’t voluntary they’re involuntary. The way you talk in this post suggests that you think I willfully sin and use my inability to stop as an excuse to indulge in sin and that’s not the case I’m dealing with. Paul made it clear in Romans 7 that even he still struggled with sin. He even rebuked Peter for being a hypocrite in Galatians 2. The scriptures show us that even the apostles weren’t perfect. No matter how hard we try we will still always fail eventually.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

Ok so I didn’t misunderstand you. So you’re saying that if someone turns away then they never actually believed?

I'm saying that there are people among us who self-identify as Christians, but whose ideas about what is true and not true about God are far enough afield to raise doubts about the genuineness of their salvation. It is incumbent on us who are near to them to try to help them over the line without judging them.

One of the issues on this and other Christian forums that raises red flags to me is the common belief that salvation is gained or maintained by being a good person. It doesn't mean that a person who believes this is necessarily lost, but it is far enough away from the truth to raise questions. So, I generally try to help them understand that their goodness is tainted by their sins, pointing them to their need for God's grace, so that they may learn to rest their hope in Him and not in themselves. This is good for them even if they are saved and not lost.

 

[AbbaLove]

Paul made it clear in Romans 7 that even he still struggled with sin. He even rebuked Peter for being a hypocrite in Galatians 2. The scriptures show us that even the apostles weren’t perfect. No matter how hard we try we will still always fail eventually.

Again (as in 6) Paul is referring to the constant inner conflict obeying the Ten Commandments besides the other 603 of the 613 laws before his new birth. Compared to his new life in Christ he is dead to sin, no longer a slave to fleshly desires, rather a bond servant to his Lord and Savior.

Instead of stopping at Romans 7 (to excuse sin) ... mediate instead on Romans 8 ...

And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love Him, who have been called according to His purpose. For those God foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 Moreover whom He did predestinate, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified. (Romans 8:28-30).​

But as He which hath called you is Holy, so be ye Holy in all manner of conversation;
Because it is written, Be ye Holy; for I Am Holy. (1 Peter 1:15-16)

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

Of course we do. That reconciled state of being is the whole purpose of the the new covenant-and therefore of our faith. It's the target, that which faith accomplishes.

"Faith" is neither the means nor the end of salvation. God's judgement is based on full knowledge of the thoughts and intents of the heart. And His decision to spare a person from His judgement is solely based on His full knowledge as to whether or not he has really and truly rested from his works and has put his full trust in Christ. His decisions and actions are the "means" to the end and "the end" is that we are spared from His wrath and obtain new life in Christ.

Or I'll translate. You'd prefer not to answer the question even though I addressed your challenge well enough.

No, my point was that none of your (many) dogmas concerning God's forgiveness of sins includes forgiving others as a prerequisite.

No, the CC agrees with this in general, properly understood . It's just that there's only one you, who's either growing towards righteous or away from it. and you will be judged according to what you do, not as if one side of you is already perfected and God will look only at that while the other side and its actions will be disregarded.

I do not see how your statements here point to any sort of agreement with what I said (repeated below for easy reference).

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I do not think Catholicism distinguishes between "old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts" (Eph 4:22) and "the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness" (Eph 4:24). So, if I'm right, it would make sense that Catholics would be generally ingnorant of the existance of the old man and the new man and would not know what it means to "put off" the one or "put on" the other. And it would explain why they think the old man can be trained to be righteous while refusing to accept the true righteousness and holiness of the new man.

How can you say, for instance, that the "old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts" (Eph 4:22) becomes less sinful over time or that "the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness" (Eph 4:24) becomes more righteous and holy over time? And how can you deny that any good that is in a person is due to oneness with Christ in the new man? And how can you live with the growing corruption of the old man not being forgiven at all times? And how can you deny that the lusts of the flesh can only be thwarted by walking in lock step with the Spirit? Don't all these things point to the same thing... namely that "And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness" (Ro 8:10)

 

[BNR32FAN]

I'm saying that there are people among us who self-identify as Christians, but whose ideas about what is true and not true about God are far enough afield to raise doubts about the genuineness of their salvation. It is incumbent on us who are near to them to try to help them over the line without judging them.

One of the issues on this and other Christian forums that raises red flags to me is the common belief that salvation is gained or maintained by being a good person. It doesn't mean that a person who believes this is necessarily lost, but it is far enough away from the truth to raise questions. So, I generally try to help them understand that their goodness is tainted by their sins, pointing them to their need for God's grace, so that they may learn to rest their hope in Him and not in themselves. This is good for them even if they are saved and not lost.

When we talk about whether a person who sins is saved or not there’s a lot that has to be taken into consideration, mainly the level of the offense, the nature of the offense, and the person’s reaction to their offense. I don’t think we can smash it all into one category and reach a conclusion one way or the other. I do however believe that there are cases where we can determine whether a person is not saved according to their actions. Like the Uvalde elementary school shooter. He killed 19 elementary school kids, it’s pretty safe to say that the guy wasn’t saved when he did that.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Again (as in 6) Paul is referring to the constant inner conflict obeying the Ten Commandments besides the other 603 of the 613 laws before his new birth. Compared to his new life in Christ he is dead to sin, no longer a slave to fleshly desires, rather a bond servant to his Lord and Savior.

Instead of stopping at Romans 7 (to excuse sin) ... mediate instead on Romans 8 ...

And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love Him, who have been called according to His purpose. For those God foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 Moreover whom He did predestinate, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified. (Romans 8:28-30).​

But as He which hath called you is Holy, so be ye Holy in all manner of conversation;
Because it is written, Be ye Holy; for I Am Holy. (1 Peter 1:15-16)

Look at the tense he’s using in Romans 7. None of it is past tense. And please stop accusing me of making excuses for sin.

 

[AbbaLove]

Look at the tense he’s using in Romans 7. None of it is past tense.

Does this sound like Paul’s own description of a believer empowered by the Holy Spirit? To say that Paul describes a Christian in Romans 7 and in Romans 8 borders on contradiction. Paul’s description of a believer in Romans 8 is contrasted, not correlated, with the description of the pre-converted Jew trying to find deliverance and salvation through the Mosaic Law in Romans 7.

And please stop accusing me of making excuses for sin.

When a new born again Christian learns of a fellow Christian caught in sin it must be disappointing and hurtful. Then later he/she may be told by a Priest, Pastor, elder and/or by Christian friends that it's not possible to srop sinning and our future sins are forgiven. Does a Christian need a better excuse to think that sinning is just part of the Christian life, also based in part on misinterpreting scripture?

More than a few noted Christians have been referred to as hypocrites by the unsaved.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Does this sound like Paul’s own description of a believer empowered by the Holy Spirit? To say that Paul describes a Christian in Romans 7 and in Romans 8 borders on contradiction. Paul’s description of a believer in Romans 8 is contrasted, not correlated, with the description of the pre-converted Jew trying to find deliverance and salvation through the Mosaic Law in Romans 7.

When a new born again Christian learns of a fellow Christian caught in sin it must be disappointing and hurtful. Then later he/she may be told by a Priest, Pastor, elder and/or by Christian friends that it's not possible to srop sinning and our future sins are forgiven. Does a Christian need a better excuse to think that sinning is just part of the Christian life, also based in part on misinterpreting scripture?

More than a few noted Christians have been referred to as hypocrites by the unsaved.

Romans 7 is about the conflicting natures between the Spirit and the flesh, not the law. In Romans 8 he talks about how we are no longer a slave to sin, he doesn’t say that we can’t sin or that he doesn’t sin. We can and do still grieve the Holy Spirit from time to time.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

When we talk about whether a person who sins is saved or not there’s a lot that has to be taken into consideration, mainly the level of the offense, the nature of the offense, and the person’s reaction to their offense. I don’t think we can smash it all into one category and reach a conclusion one way or the other. I do however believe that there are cases where we can determine whether a person is not saved according to their actions. Like the Uvalde elementary school shooter. He killed 19 elementary school kids, it’s pretty safe to say that the guy wasn’t saved when he did that.

I have a hard time ignoring Romans 2:1-3's admonition to refrain from judging others' salvation.

Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things. But we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against those who practice such things. And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the judgment of God? (Ro 2:1–3)​

 

[Mark Quayle]

You didn’t answer my question. Do you know anyone who has stopped sinning?

Define what you mean by both words —"stopped" and "sinning".

According to scripture, all the redeemed stop sinning. So be consistent in your use of the terms. (Not saying you aren't consistent, but trying to forestall the multiple dimensions of your answer.)