Question to protestants about Faith Alone

[BobRyan]

Ezekiel prophesied of the New Covenant Church

Ezekiel 37

22- And I will make them one nation in the land on the mountains of Israel,

Jer 31:31-34 states the New Covenant explicitly -- no inference need be read into it.

31 “Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers on the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the Lord. 33 “For this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord:
A - “I will put My law within them and write it on their heart;
B - and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
C - 34 They will not teach again, each one his neighbor and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the Lord,
D - “for I will forgive their wrongdoing, and their sin I will no longer remember.”


A - the NEW birth - new heart, Law of God on the heart
B - Adoption into the family of God
C - God HIMSELF as our teacher
D - forgiveness of sins.


That is the one and only Gospel covenant and it is quoted verbatim, unchanged in the New Testament in Heb 8. So it is not just Old Testament.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

Jer 31:31-34 states the New Covenant explicitly -- no inference need be read into it.

31 “Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers on the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the Lord. 33 “For this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord:
A - “I will put My law within them and write it on their heart;
B - and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
C - 34 They will not teach again, each one his neighbor and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the Lord,
D - “for I will forgive their wrongdoing, and their sin I will no longer remember.”


A - the NEW birth - new heart, Law of God on the heart
B - Adoption into the family of God
C - God HIMSELF as our teacher
D - forgiveness of sins.


That is the one and only Gospel covenant and it is quoted verbatim, unchanged in the New Testament in Heb 8. So it is not just Old Testament.

What you say is true and not denied

God Himself is our teacher, when we submit to authority. If we presume to know better, we open our hearts to deceiving spirits that will manipulate our pride and assure us we are right.

Proverbs tells us that there is a way that seems right to a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.


We are also warned to be alert, because Satan prowls about like a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour.

Bob, I recognize your reliance on scripture and have no desire to mock or gloat over your flesh.
It does not please God for one to exalt himself over another.


As an outside observer that is presented with the SDA faith and sola scriptura, I have an honest question.

I reading the Bible and the words of Our Lord, it seems to me that the SDA faith was prophesied in the Bible, but not the way you think.

Matthew 24:5 speaks of all adventists, not just SDA. It says many will come in my name saying I am Christ and will deceive many. We know this as Jehovah’s witnesses were originally called the millennial dawn. There are other groups that speak of the “rapture” and the soon return of Christ. They also speak of Daniel the prophet. I do believe that you think those groups are deceived. If not let me know

Later in Matthew 24, Jesus tells us how to stay free from deception. One of those warnings is if they say, behold he is in the desert go not out, or behold he is in the closet (some say secret chambers) believe it not.

The SDA claim to know the prophesy of Daniel and say that Christ returned in 1843, but He came to cleanse the heavenly sanctuary, so we can’t see Him.
How is that different from the secret chambers that Our Lord specifically warned us about?
From what I see of sola scriptura, I am precluded to give SDS any credibility because Jesus said believe it not.

For me that is a huge obstacle to overcome. If I ignore that, then I open myself to deception, as I would be ignoring a direct command of Christ.


From what I see, you love the scripture and want to rest in its truth. For me to also be true to conscience and reading of scripture, I am compelled by my Lord to ignore any other arguments you make, as He told me to “believe it not”

Do you see the problem ?


Peace be with you, may the love of God bless you and keep you as we all battle in our journey through this fallen world

 

[boughtwithaprice]

On the contrary - scripture clearly teaches we are the church, we are the body of Christ, the house of God​

​

1 Peter 4:17 For it is time for judgment to begin at the household of God; and if it begins with us, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God? ​

1 Pet 2:5 You yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

Heb 3:5 Now Moses was faithful in all God’s house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken later; 6 but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house—whose house we are, if we hold firmly to our confidence and the boast of our hope.

1 Thess 1:1 Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace.
Eph 1:22-23 And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all.

1 Cor 1:2 To the church of God which is in Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours:
1 Cor 12:27 Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it.

Acts 15: 4 And when they had come to Jerusalem, they were received by the church and the apostles and the elders; and they reported all things that God had done with them.

​

Acts 17:11 "they studied the scriptures daily TO SEE IF those things spoken by the APOSTLE Paul - were SO" --

Clearly scripture teaches that we can read scripture and then test Apostolic teaching against what we read in scripture "TO SEE IF" those things the apostles teach - are true or not.

That is a key feature of the New Covenant of Jer 31:31-34 and Heb 8


Mark 7:7-13 demonstrates the method of slam hammering established supposedly infallible church tradition "sola scriptura"

No scripture says "The savior came from Mary" -- rather it says He came from the Father. See John 17 for details.

Matt 16 says Peter is the "pebble" and that the foundation stone "Petra" is Christ the rock (see 1 Cor 3)

In Matt 16 Christ said to Peter "get thee behind Me Satan", so clearly was having a bit of a fumble just then - in that chapter you are referencing.

It says the way we treat Jesus "the child" from heaven shows the thoughts of the heart

seems like a direct contradiction of the text you just quoted.

Someone tried that idea out with Jesus in the gospels in Luke 11. Jesus' response was "on the contrary..."

27 While Jesus was saying these things, one of the women in the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that carried You, and the breasts at which You nursed!” 28 But He said, “On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and follow it.”

On the contrary is not the correct translation
It is “yeah, rather”. This refers back to the Gospel of Luke where Mary says behold the handmaid of the Lord, be it done to me according to your word

Simeon was speaking to Mary when he said a sword will pierce your soul also so that thoughts of many hearts may be revealed

There is no contradiction

 

[KevinT]

...

The SDA claim to know the prophesy of Daniel and say that Christ returned in 1843, but He came to cleanse the heavenly sanctuary, so we can’t see Him.
How is that different from the secret chambers that Our Lord specifically warned us about?
From what I see of sola scriptura, I am precluded to give SDS any credibility because Jesus said believe it not.

I know @boughtwithaprice was not speaking to me, but I hope I can jump in. As a background, I am SDA, but am not willing to say something is true just because some organization says it is true.

The prophecies of Daniel about 2300 days seems to point to a time in the 1840's. I think the exact timing is less important. There were many (see about Miller, a Baptist minister, in Wikipedia here) who thought that something important was going to happen at that time. And specifically they thought that it was to be the 2nd coming of Christ. Around this time, EG White, reported having visions which caused many to believe that God was speaking through her. The visions did not say that Christ was going to return in the 1840's but were more of a supportive nature. But she certainly believed this, incorrectly.

After the predicted date came and went, the Millerite movement went through the Great Disappointment. Many went back through all their calculations from the book of Daniel and they concluded that SOMETHING must have happened at that time. The prophecy says, "And then shall the sanctuary be cleansed." Whereas the Millerites had thought that the "cleansing of the sanctuary" was referring to the cleansing of the earth, and thus the return of Christ. Others, who ended up founding the SDA church, decided to go back and learn more about the sanctuary, as describe in the writings of Moses and also in Revelation. And from this learned that there was an annual cycle with the OT sanctuary and that there were different times of the year that the priest did different things. The sanctuary was cleansed every year, and the sins that had been transferred from the people to the altar were ultimately transferred to the scapegoat.

I attended SDA schools and took many religious classes. And in them, I have never had anyone tell me that they felt that Christ had returned in 1843. Instead, I have been told that Christ entered into a new phase of His work in heaven, just as the high priest from the OT sanctuary would go into different parts of the sanctuary when the proper time came. I agree with @boughtwithaprice that if SDA tought that Christ had returned to earth, but just that people couldn't see him, that this would be strange indeed.

I personally feel that the SDA doctrine of the investigative premellinial judgment doesn't ring true to what I read in the Bible. But that is what is great about different points of view. When different people work on a problem and we can compare what they come up with, often we can figure out what God was trying to say. This is similar to theoretical physics and interpretations of quantum mechanics. Not everyone agrees, and there should be vigorous debate.

Best wishes,

Kevin

 

[boughtwithaprice]

I know @boughtwithaprice was not speaking to me, but I hope I can jump in. As a background, I am SDA, but am not willing to say something is true just because some organization says it is true.

The prophecies of Daniel about 2300 days seems to point to a time in the 1840's. I think the exact timing is less important. There were many (see about Miller, a Baptist minister, in Wikipedia here) who thought that something important was going to happen at that time. And specifically they thought that it was to be the 2nd coming of Christ. Around this time, EG White, reported having visions which caused many to believe that God was speaking through her. The visions did not say that Christ was going to return in the 1840's but were more of a supportive nature. But she certainly believed this, incorrectly.

After the predicted date came and went, the Millerite movement went through the Great Disappointment. Many went back through all their calculations from the book of Daniel and they concluded that SOMETHING must have happened at that time. The prophecy says, "And then shall the sanctuary be cleansed." Whereas the Millerites had thought that the "cleansing of the sanctuary" was referring to the cleansing of the earth, and thus the return of Christ. Others, who ended up founding the SDA church, decided to go back and learn more about the sanctuary, as describe in the writings of Moses and also in Revelation. And from this learned that there was an annual cycle with the OT sanctuary and that there were different times of the year that the priest did different things. The sanctuary was cleansed every year, and the sins that had been transferred from the people to the altar were ultimately transferred to the scapegoat.

I attended SDA schools and took many religious classes. And in them, I have never had anyone tell me that they felt that Christ had returned in 1843. Instead, I have been told that Christ entered into a new phase of His work in heaven, just as the high priest from the OT sanctuary would go into different parts of the sanctuary when the proper time came. I agree with @boughtwithaprice that if SDA tought that Christ had returned to earth, but just that people couldn't see him, that this would be strange indeed.

I personally feel that the SDA doctrine of the investigative premellinial judgment doesn't ring true to what I read in the Bible. But that is what is great about different points of view. When different people work on a problem and we can compare what they come up with, often we can figure out what God was trying to say. This is similar to theoretical physics and interpretations of quantum mechanics. Not everyone agrees, and there should be vigorous debate.

Best wishes,

Kevin

I appreciate your sentiments and do not object to your entering the conversation. The mention of theoretical physics is intriguing. We have an example of many learned men, they have many ideas, but they still cannot admit that they do not know what they are talking about.
Most everything we hear from them is their inferences, not the observational data. Data is dry and boring, we need a story man. That would be fine if it were admitted that it was a story from the imaginations of men, but it’s not. It is proclaimed as scientific fact.

I am not claiming that I know everything or can explain it all. Theoretical physicists can’t, Genesis can, but we are told not to believe they because it is just poetry and myth, not science.
I say Oh Really?

Genesis tells us that in the beginning there was water and there was a light separate from the sun that shown on those waters. Ok, what do we find? Well we have found water on the Sun, and there is water in other places in our solar system.
Why is it there? Kind of hard to explain from a big bang singularity, but makes perfect sense if the only thing that existed in the beginning was water. We have also used computers to subtract all of the light from bright objects in the universe, and guess what? There is still a background glow that cannot be explained. Difficult to explain from a big bang singularity but makes perfect sense to be remnants of light from the first day.

Oh those that call themselves science cannot admit Genesis had any validity, as they are ever learning, but never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. They loved not the truth, so they are given a lie to believe, and good luck convincing them of the flaws in their narrative. They cannot admit that Genesis may be scientifically valid. They need it to to be fable so it can be dismissed as they want the God who spoke the words to also be dismissed

Wow did I go off on a tangent, sorry about that.
We were taking SDA. They are generally pleasant people. I am Catholic, but my wife is non-practicing SDA. I do not say former l, as she does not believe SDA to be wrong, but she is non-practicing due to corruption in the local assembly.

I practice my Catholic faith, and she had no interest in joining me, but she tolerates me. Ironically, her former marriage was found to be possibly valid, and I had to convince her to go through a Catholic annulment process, so that I could take communion. What a trip that was. She laughed at me a little because the result of all my work was to have our marriage blessed by the Bishop in what is known as a radical sanation, or declaration of purity “to the root”. This means that I can never get an annulment, even by the Pope. I am stuck with her, till death do us part.
I used to want to try and convert her, but that was futile. My tongue is stayed to follow God’s command to love her and give myself for her

I don’t understand her logic, but it is not worth fighting about. I put her in God’s hands. She does not see things my way, nor do most SDA
It’s just when I read the Apostolic teaching from the second century, I can’t see how it lines up with modern SDA. I am still studying

Peace be with you

 

[BobRyan]

On the contrary - scripture clearly teaches we are the church, we are the body of Christ, the house of God​

​

1 Peter 4:17 For it is time for judgment to begin at the household of God; and if it begins with us, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God? ​

1 Pet 2:5 You yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

Heb 3:5 Now Moses was faithful in all God’s house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken later; 6 but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house—whose house we are, if we hold firmly to our confidence and the boast of our hope.

1 Thess 1:1 Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace.
Eph 1:22-23 And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all.

1 Cor 1:2 To the church of God which is in Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours:
1 Cor 12:27 Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it.

Acts 15: 4 And when they had come to Jerusalem, they were received by the church and the apostles and the elders; and they reported all things that God had done with them.

​

Acts 17:11 "they studied the scriptures daily TO SEE IF those things spoken by the APOSTLE Paul - were SO" --

Clearly scripture teaches that we can read scripture and then test Apostolic teaching against what we read in scripture "TO SEE IF" those things the apostles teach - are true or not.

That is a key feature of the New Covenant of Jer 31:31-34 and Heb 8


Mark 7:7-13 demonstrates the method of slam hammering established supposedly infallible church tradition "sola scriptura"

No scripture says "The savior came from Mary" -- rather it says He came from the Father. See John 17 for details.

Matt 16 says Peter is the "pebble" and that the foundation stone "Petra" is Christ the rock (see 1 Cor 3)

In Matt 16 Christ said to Peter "get thee behind Me Satan", so clearly was having a bit of a fumble just then - in that chapter you are referencing.

It says the way we treat Jesus "the child" from heaven shows the thoughts of the heart

seems like a direct contradiction of the text you just quoted.

Someone tried that idea out with Jesus in the gospels in Luke 11. Jesus' response was "on the contrary..."

27 While Jesus was saying these things, one of the women in the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that carried You, and the breasts at which You nursed!” 28 But He said, “On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and follow it.” NASB

"On the contrary" is not the correct translation
It is “yeah, rather”.

your statement looks like a distinction without a difference to me.

This refers back to the Gospel of Luke where Mary says behold the handmaid of the Lord, be it done to me according to your word

Not even in the same chapter. You ripped that right out of the Luke 11 context where we find Christ's statement

Simeon was speaking to Mary when he said a sword will pierce your soul

No doubt.

But that is an entirely different chapter/scenario.

Is it your claim that Luke 11 should be deleted?

 

[BobRyan]

As an outside observer that is presented with the SDA faith and sola scriptura, I have an honest question.

I reading the Bible and the words of Our Lord, it seems to me that the SDA faith was prophesied in the Bible, but not the way you think.

Matthew 24:5 speaks of all adventists, not just SDA. It says many will come in my name saying I am Christ and will deceive many. We know this as Jehovah’s witnesses were originally called the millennial dawn. There are other groups that speak of the “rapture” and the soon return of Christ. They also speak of Daniel the prophet. I do believe that you think those groups are deceived.

true.

(Though we do believe in a post-trib rapture)

Later in Matthew 24, Jesus tells us how to stay free from deception. One of those warnings is if they say, behold he is in the desert go not out, or behold he is in the closet (some say secret chambers) believe it not.

agreed.

The SDA claim to know the prophesy of Daniel and say that Christ returned in 1843,

We don't claim Christ has returned. We say His appearing, the second coming etc - all of it -- is still future and at an unknown date.

but He came to cleanse the heavenly sanctuary, so we can’t see Him.

No text about the appearing of Christ, the return of Christ, the "I will come again" statement of John 14 - is applicable to the Dan 7 statement about the movement of Christ from one area in heaven to the courtroom of Dan 7:9-10 and I don't know of anyone who claims that is the coming of Christ to Earth.

How is that different from the secret chambers that Our Lord specifically warned us about?

The Mat 24 statement of Christ is specifically about someone claiming that Christ has come - the second coming has happened - Christ has come to Earth. IT is not at all about Dan 7.

From what I see, you love the scripture and want to rest in its truth. For me to also be true to conscience and reading of scripture, I am compelled by my Lord to ignore any other arguments you make

You have free will of course and can choose anything you wish.

I don't mind having this or that person differ with my POV - but I thinks it helps if they actually know what it is while doing it.

To your point - if we were claiming that the NT teaching about Christ's second coming, or his appearing -- had already taken place - then that would be a big problem and would not pass the sola scriptura test.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

that would be a big problem and would not pass the sola scriptura test.

Matthew 24:9-14 RSV-CE "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation, and put you to death; and you will be hated by all nations for my name's sake. (10) And then many will fall away, and betray one another, and hate one another. (11) And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. (12) And because wickedness is multiplied, most men's love will grow cold. (13) But he who endures to the end will be saved. (14) And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached throughout the whole world, as a testimony to all nations; and then the end will come.​

What do you take "this gospel of the kingdom" to be? Does it relate to "faith alone"?

This gospel ... shall be preached in the whole world, to serve as a testimony to all nations, of the solicitude of heaven in having the doctrine of salvation announced to them. This then is a fifth sign, and not till then shall the consummation come. ---​

​

And then shall the consummation come. The end of the world says St. Jerome. The destruction of Jerusalem says St. John Chrysostom and others. (Witham) ---​

​

If the final destruction of Jerusalem be here meant, the gospel had been preached throughout the major part of the then known world. See Romans 10. and Col 1:6; Col 1:23. If the end of the world, there is the greatest probability that the true faith will have been announced to every part of the globe, before that period.​

---

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world - The evidence that this was done is to be chiefly derived from the New Testament, and there it is clear. Thus Paul declares that it was preached to every creature under heaven Col 1:6, Col 1:23; that the faith of the Romans was spoken of throughout the whole world Rom 1:8; that he preached in Arabia Gal 1:17, and at Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum Rom 15:19. We know also that He traveled through Asia Minor, Greece, and Crete; that he was in Italy, and probably in Spain and Gaul, Rom 15:24-28. At the same time, the other apostles were not idle; and there is full proof that within thirty years after this prophecy was spoken, churches were established in all these regions.​

For a witness unto all nations - This preaching the gospel indiscriminately to “all” the Gentiles shall be a proof to them, or a witness, that the division between the Jews and Gentiles was about to be broken down. Hitherto the blessings of revelation had been confined to the Jews. They were the special people of God. His messages had been sent to them only. When, therefore, God sent the gospel to all other people, it was proof, or “a witness unto them,” that the special Jewish economy was at an end.​

Then shall the end come - The end of the Jewish economy; the destruction of the temple and city.​

 

[boughtwithaprice]

your statement looks like a distinction without a difference to me.


Not even in the same chapter. You ripped that right out of the Luke 11 context where we find Christ's statement

No doubt.

But that is an entirely different chapter/scenario.

Is it your claim that Luke 11 should be deleted?

Luke 11 need not be deleted, but properly understood. To say “on the contrary” when some one is blessing your mother would be an insult, and would violate the command to honor our mother and father. Since Christ never sinned, we know the translation could not be “on the contrary”

I believe Mary was there when those words were spoken. The primary virtue of Christianity is humility. For Mary to maintain perfect virtue, she could not accept the praise of another human, while Jesus, the creator, the author and finisher of our faith, was teaching. It’s just not right
I could imagine that Mary heard those words and looked at Jesus in a motherly way as if to say, help me out here. Jesus deflected the statement in Luke 11 to show the crowd what is really important, which is hearing the word of God and doing it, and he did it in a way that did not break one of the Ten Commandments by insulting His mother. He said, “yeah, rather”, the modern equivalent is “yes, but”

My reference to Luke 1 is my own understanding, but is still valid, as Jesus praised those that hear the word of God and do it. Luke 1 says that Mary already did that. She sacrificed her whole life to God, by allowing Him to impregnate her. At that moment, she was no longer her own. She was completely His.

God asks us to deny ourselves and take up our cross, in other words, give up everything to follow Him. Do you follow Mary’s example and allow God to have all aspects of your life?

 

[boughtwithaprice]

true.

(Though we do believe in a post-trib rapture)

agreed.

We don't claim Christ has returned. We say His appearing, the second coming etc - all of it -- is still future and at an unknown date.

No text about the appearing of Christ, the return of Christ, the "I will come again" statement of John 14 - is applicable to the Dan 7 statement about the movement of Christ from one area in heaven to the courtroom of Dan 7:9-10 and I don't know of anyone who claims that is the coming of Christ to Earth.

The Mat 24 statement of Christ is specifically about someone claiming that Christ has come - the second coming has happened - Christ has come to Earth. IT is not at all about Dan 7.

You have free will of course and can choose anything you wish.

I don't mind having this or that person differ with my POV - but I thinks it helps if they actually know what it is while doing it.

To your point - if we were claiming that the NT teaching about Christ's second coming, or his appearing -- had already taken place - then that would be a big problem and would not pass the sola scriptura test.

Yes I would like to know what you teach. In the context of scriptures that warn of future adventists (those that claim the soon return of Christ, not necessarily SDA), why would you want to associate your group with a failed prophesy?
Then claim the prophesy did not fail, it happened but was just misunderstood, when there is no way of verifying that your interpretation is correct? That sounds like it has a high risk of deception, as it wishes to dismiss my rational doubt and get me to believe you and your group.

Scriptural prophesy is never meant to do that. Scriptural prophesy calls us to God. If I am in sin, it leads to repentance. If we are righteous, it cheers our hearts in anticipation of meeting Our Lord. It is not to convince us to join one group or another. Groups are judged by how they follow the commandments, as Jesus said that is the mark of those that love Him, not prophesy, whether failed, misunderstood or reinterpreted .

According to the scriptures you have quoted me, it says no one will teach his neighbor, “know the Lord”, as God Himself enters the heart of a believer and is lead into all truth. Why would I need SDA prophesy to know who God is?

Jesus says no one knows the day or hour except the Father only, and when asked about the prophesy by the Apostles, Jesus said it is not for you to know the times or the seasons which the Father has fixed by his own authority (other translations say times or moments which the Father has put in his own power)

Why have your group associated with something that God told us no one knows, yet your group says it does. Then when it fails, try to show that there is a way it really didn’t fail, even though the prophesy concerning 1843 could still be wrong, as there is no way to verify whether it is right or wrong?

How can I believe someone when I can never tell whether they are telling the truth or not? That is the definition of “blind faith”, and Jesus said when the blind lead the blind, both fall into a pit. God does not call us to blind faith

The resurrection of Christ is an historical fact. Groups have denied it or ignored it, but they can’t say it was made up and didn’t happen. The Church does not ask for blind faith either. The existence of the Apostolic Church is written in history and a serious student can research and verify that history.

Why should SDA demand blind faith?

It’s not meant to insult you, these are questions that anyone should have before joining you or any other group that wants to convince another to believe

 

[KevinT]

Wow did I go off on a tangent, sorry about that.

Tangents are the best!

I don’t understand her logic, but it is not worth fighting about. I put her in God’s hands. She does not see things my way, nor do most SDA
It’s just when I read the Apostolic teaching from the second century, I can’t see how it lines up with modern SDA. I am still studying

Peace be with you

I agree with putting ourselves in God's hands. I just glad that the two of you have been able to form a family and get along together!

Thanks for your feedback and God Bless.

KT

 

[BobRyan]

Yes I would like to know what you teach. In the context of scriptures that warn of future adventists (those that claim the soon return of Christ, not necessarily SDA), why would you want to associate your group with a failed prophesy?

The Millerites were a "movement" not a church or denomination. That movement was within a lot of Christian denomination particularly in the U.S. The only thing they had in common was -
1. The day-for-year Reformation principle in Dan 9, Dan 8, Dan 7.
2. The start date for the 2300 years in Dan 8
3. The end date (in 1844) for those 2300 years
4. The belief that Jesus would come to Earth in 1844

So the only reason we point to them is that we agree with the day-for-year model and we agree that the 2300 years started in 457 BC.

We also hold to the sola-scriptura rule for testing all doctrine, tradition etc.

Then claim the prophesy did not fail, it happened but was just misunderstood,

The Dan 7 and 8 prophecy did not fail - but the Millerites totally got the event it pointed to - wrong.
They had the Millennium wrong
They had the events associated with the 2nd coming wrong.
And none of them would be a candidate for SDA membership today - holding the same doctrines that they held at that time.

when there is no way of verifying that your interpretation is correct?

Any time the event predicted is the one in Dan 7 where heaven's court room is doing something -- will by definition - have no independent news agencies stationed in heaven to see the event happen. But we do have what the Bible tells us about it, as basis for our faith.

Scriptural prophesy is never meant to do that. Scriptural prophesy calls us to God.

Dan 7 prophecy exists all the same. So also Romans 2.

According to the scriptures you have quoted me, it says no one will teach his neighbor, “know the Lord”, as God Himself enters the heart of a believer and is lead into all truth. Why would I need SDA prophesy to know who God is?

A bible will do just fine.

Jesus says no one knows the day or hour except the Father only

That is where we all agree when it comes to the 2nd coming of Jesus

, and when asked about the prophesy by the Apostles, Jesus said it is not for you to know the times or the seasons which the Father has fixed by his own authority (other translations say times or moments which the Father has put in his own power)

Why have your group associated with something that God told us no one knows, yet your group says it does.

We don't say anyone knows the day and hour of Christ's return. That is not changing.

Then when it fails, try to show that there is a way it really didn’t fail

Indeed in Luke 24 the disciples state that their belief in who Christ was and what was supposed to happen to Him as warrior king...failed.

Yet as Christians we can (and do) say that His mission was a success.

, even though the prophesy concerning 1843 could still be wrong, as there is no way to verify whether it is right or wrong?

How can I believe someone when I can never tell whether they are telling the truth or not?

In Heb 8:1-5 Paul says Jesus is seated at the right hand of the Father as our High Priest. But where the the independent news media camera in heaven to show us that ? IT is not there. But we believe it anyway.

That is the definition of “blind faith”, and Jesus said when the blind lead the blind, both fall into a pit. God does not call us to blind faith

Then that is an area where we differ as to what that term means.

The resurrection of Christ is an historical fact.

No videos. But we believe it all the same.

 

[BobRyan]

I personally feel that the SDA doctrine of the investigative premellinial judgment doesn't ring true to what I read in the Bible. But that is what is great about different points of view. When different people work on a problem and we can compare what they come up with, often we can figure out what God was trying to say.

You might enjoy the first 8 posts here --

Daniel 7 Pre-advent, Investigated out of books, Judgment affirmed by Adventist

This thread will show that the pre-advent Investigative judgment teaching - comes right out of Dan 7. Daniel 7 alone tells us some key facts for those paying attention to the details in Dan chapter 7. 1. Judgment happens before the 2nd coming. (Pre-Advent) and when Judgment ends we have 2nd...

www.christianforums.com

 

[KevinT]

You might enjoy the first 8 posts here --

Daniel 7 Pre-advent, Investigated out of books, Judgment affirmed by Adventist

This thread will show that the pre-advent Investigative judgment teaching - comes right out of Dan 7. Daniel 7 alone tells us some key facts for those paying attention to the details in Dan chapter 7. 1. Judgment happens before the 2nd coming. (Pre-Advent) and when Judgment ends we have 2nd...

www.christianforums.com

Noooooo. Don't make me think about this again.... Just kidding. I'll check it out.

Thanks
KT

 

[BobRyan]

Matthew 24:9-14 RSV-CE "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation, and put you to death; and you will be hated by all nations for my name's sake. (10) And then many will fall away, and betray one another, and hate one another. (11) And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. (12) And because wickedness is multiplied, most men's love will grow cold. (13) But he who endures to the end will be saved. (14) And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached throughout the whole world, as a testimony to all nations; and then the end will come.​

What do you take "this gospel of the kingdom" to be? Does it relate to "faith alone"?

Eph 2:8-9 - saved by grace through faith, not of works lest anyone boast - created unto good works which God has prepared before hand that we should walk in them.

This gospel ... shall be preached in the whole world, to serve as a testimony to all nations, of the solicitude of heaven in having the doctrine of salvation announced to them. This then is a fifth sign, and not till then shall the consummation come. ---​

​

And then shall the consummation come. The end of the world says St. Jerome.​

all true

The destruction of Jerusalem​

is 70 A.D. and only scratch a small portion of what we find in Matt 24.

says St. John Chrysostom and others. (Witham) ---​

​

If the final destruction of Jerusalem be here meant, the gospel had been preached throughout the major part of the then known world. See Romans 10. and Col 1:6; Col 1:23. If the end of the world, there is the greatest probability that the true faith will have been announced to every part of the globe, before that period.​

---

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world - The evidence that this was done is to be chiefly derived from the New Testament, and there it is clear. Thus Paul declares that it was preached to every creature under heaven Col 1:6, Col 1:23; that the faith of the Romans was spoken of throughout the whole world Rom 1:8; that he preached in Arabia Gal 1:17, and at Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum Rom 15:19. We know also that He traveled through Asia Minor, Greece, and Crete; that he was in Italy, and probably in Spain and Gaul, Rom 15:24-28. At the same time, the other apostles were not idle; and there is full proof that within thirty years after this prophecy was spoken, churches were established in all these regions.​

Paul says it error to teach that the resurrection has already taken place.
18 men who have gone astray from the truth, claiming that the resurrection has already taken place; and they are jeopardizing the faith of some.

Matt 24 makes it very clear that it is predicting events far beyond 70 A.D.

Matt 24
29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet blast, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

None of that happened in 70 A.D. or at any time before it.

2 Thess 2:
Now we ask you, brothers and sisters, regarding the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit, or a message, or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 No one is to deceive you in any way! For it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God. 5 Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things? 6 And you know what restrains him now, so that he will be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is removed. 8 Then that lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will eliminate with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;

None of that (much less all of it) had happened by 70 A.D.

2 Thess 1:
6 For after all it is only right for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted, along with us, when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels 8 in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God, and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 These people will pay the penalty of eternal destruction,

none of that happened by 70 A.D.

1 Peter 1:13
13 Therefore, prepare your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, set your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

The entire focus of all NT writers was the rapture event described in those verses, in 1 Thess 4:13-18, in Matt 24, in John 14:1-3

 

[BobRyan]

Noooooo. Don't make me think about this again.... Just kidding. I'll check it out.

Thanks
KT

I put it in "General Theology" section so that everyone could participate in it -- to comment as they wish..

 

[BobRyan]

When there is a disagreement on a theological matter, it is advisable to acknowledge the disagreement and calmly explain one's own perspective. However, it is not beneficial to assume knowledge of the other person's intentions or to impose one's own opinions about their beliefs. Additionally, hurling accusations of idolatry is likely to be counterproductive.

So I have a question for you --

Leos Trese's book "The Faith Explained" appears (to me) to be a well written Catholic explanation of the Catholic faith and doctrine.
IT has an imprimatur from the Bishop of Fort Wayne Indiana.

My proposal to you is that it is not too far fetched to expect that some statements made in this book are affirmed by both Catholics and non-Catholic readers. Would you agree? OR do you consider everything in it to be unique to the Catholic POV and non-Catholics would not be expected to agree??

 

[boughtwithaprice]

No videos. But we believe it all the same.

Well, we did not have cameras in the first century, but we do have the testimony of the Apostles who were eye witnesses, and eleven of them willingly died for that testimony, making it sealed in blood.

A man in the mafia that converted to Christianity stated that if Jesus wasn’t real and those twelve guys wanted to trick the world into a new religion, they would not have willingly died. One of them would have cracked and admitted the ruse. I believe John was the only one to die a natural death.
Then we have the Apostolic tradition that spans about 2000 years now. History was recorded and we can study what took place. There are also many saints of the Church that have lead lives of virtue. We can study them
We have Marian apparitions that have been investigated by the Church. We are not under obligation to believe them, but they are able to be investigated. The most famous one is from Fatima, Portugal in 1917. The secular papers at the time even describe the event known as the miracle of the Sun. Again, not required to believe but it can be investigated.

There is the shroud of Turin which is being investigated. The image of Our Lady of Guadalupe from Juan Diego in the 1500s is investigated. There are Eucharistic miracles where the host is turned into flesh and blood that can be investigated
Granted not all apparitions are authentic, as Satan would have a vested interest in deceiving people to keep them from heaven, but that does not mean others are not real. We trust the Church authorities that have the promise of Christ that the gates of hell would not prevail against His Church to tell us of any are worthy of belief

The information is there, you can investigate also . There is no way to prove if the heavenly sanctuary of was cleansed or even needed to be cleansed. I mean it’s heaven, and we believe God who says nothing unclean is in heaven.

The question remains, what other evidence do you have? Anything that can be investigated?

 

[BobRyan]

Well, we did not have cameras in the first century, but we do have the testimony of the Apostles

That is true - we have those who spoke of the resurrection and we have others who say the same thing. And we have the ability to read the Bible and see that it is predicted.

That is the case with the scenario about the 2300 years of Dan 8 and the events in Dan 7 as well.

What we all can't see with our eyes - is Christ at the right hand of the Father as our High Priest. A point that Paul makes clearly in Heb 8 - but we have no camera in heaven to film it for us.

A man in the mafia that converted to Christianity stated that if Jesus wasn’t real and those twelve guys wanted to trick the world into a new religion, they would not have willingly died.

Agreed -- many people who have not actually seen Jesus in heaven at the right hand of the Father - as High Priest - have died for their faith as well.

We have Marian apparitions that have been investigated by the Church. We are not under obligation to believe them, but they are able to be investigated.

Indeed and in 1 Sam 28 we have an apparition of the prophet Samuel presented by the witch and her demon (familiar spirit) to king Saul.

The question remains, what other evidence do you have? Anything that can be investigated?

Investigated from scripture as is the case for Heb 8 statement that Christ is seated at the right hand of the Father in the heavenly Sanctuary as stated in Heb 8.

 

[The Liturgist]

Investigated from scripture as is the case for Heb 8 statement that Christ is seated at the right hand of the Father in the heavenly Sanctuary as stated in Heb 8.

There is no evidence in Scripture to support that, but substantial evidence against it. For example, Scripture attests that God is unchanging, and eternal, and omniscient, and these things make the idea of the Investigative Judgement, which requires God to change, and exist in linear time, and which seems to contradict His omniscience, in that what is there to investigate? Since God already knows everything, including who will be saved and who will refuse Him ultimately, the concept of the Investigative Judgement is not consistent with a plain reading of Scripture.

On the other hand, there is actual physical evidence which supports the Holy Tradition of the early church, in the form of relics. And scriptural verses which support our interpretation.