Question to protestants about Faith Alone

[ARBITER01]

My age is hardly important to this conversation.

-CryptoLutheran

I think it is.

The Lord came to me when I was 20 years old. I refused. I thought that I was a good person, so why would I go to hell.

Then after 7 years went by and my life went into a shambles, He came to me again at 27, and this time, I was able to repent and receive the new birth. If I had not received Him at that point, I probably would have died and missed out on being born again. That was just the way my life was heading.

Which brings me to why I asked your age. Maybe The Lord has already tried to reach you a few times and you kept refusing.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I think it is.

The Lord came to me when I was 20 years old. I refused. I thought that I was a good person, so why would I go to hell.

Then after 7 years went by and my life went into a shambles, He came to me again at 27, and this time, I was able to repent and receive the new birth. If I had not received Him at that point, I probably would have died and missed out on being born again. That was just the way my life was heading.

Which brings me to why I asked your age. Maybe The Lord has already tried to reach you a few times and you kept refusing.

Let's assume that he is 900 years old and go from there

 

[Sunflower39]

Good. At least the UCC does not exist in the UK. I like your practices. Thank you for serving at the altar. You Anglican guys are the coolest denomination in my opinion.

I agree, we’re DEFINITELY the coolest and Catholics are the second coolest haha just messing

 

[Offline4Better.]

I agree, we’re DEFINITELY the coolest and Catholics are the second coolest haha just messing

Haha, we are equally cool. Cooler than the Methodists, that is for sure.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

Matthew 3:11 English Standard Version 2016 (ESV)“I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Was the thief on the cross water baptized?

Water baptism cannot be essential/required for salvation because “Jesus never baptized anyone (John 4:2). If baptism is essential for salvation, why didn't Jesus baptize anyone? Since he did not baptize anyone, how did he save anyone?”

Salvation is a free gift of God. We are saved by grace through faith. The Bible is very clear about how we are saved. Baptism symbolizes salvation but is not a way to earn salvation.

We can't earn salvation by doing anything ... salvation is a gift from God (through faith)

Abraham was not baptized by water ... is he saved? Yes ... by faith through the grace of God. He had faith in God and because of his faith he did offer his son

Being immersed in water does nothing but wash away dirt. What Peter is referring to is what baptism represents, which is what saves us (an appeal to God for a good conscience through the resurrection of Jesus Christ). In other words, Peter is simply connecting baptism with belief. It is not the getting wet part that saves but the “appeal to God for a clean conscience” which is signified/symbolized by baptism, that saves us. The appeal to God always comes first. First belief and repentance, then we are baptized to publicly identify ourselves with Christ.

1 Corinthians 1 (the apostle Paul)

16Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that I do not remember if I baptized anyone else. 17For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with words of wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

Was Paul being disobedient to a commandment by Jesus? No, or course not.

I will argue it in as far as water baptizing being a requirement to be saved as some might teach ... because it is just not so.

Then you are defying the word of God. Exceptions do not prove the rule. The thief on the cross was not baptized because he in no way had an opportunity. He would have asked for baptism had it been available. The thief accepted his fate as deserving for his sins.

He did not continue to mock Jesus and say if you are the son of God save yourself and us. He endured crucifixion willingly, and that is one of the most agonizing death one can endure and asked Jesus to remember him in the world to come. Would you be willing to endure the same agony?


As Christians, we are to live by the rule, and not the exceptions. Christ commands us to be baptized. “He who believes and is baptized will be saved”

One who is to be saved is filled with the love of God, and He says, if you love me, keep my commandments. Stop looking for exceptions to try and exempt yourself and just follow a simple command.

Baptism is a sign of obedience which is an act of faith. Defiance of baptism is a sign of disobedience and a lack of faith, despite the exceptions. How can one claim to be saved by Jesus, yet mock his simple commands? Is the Lord a joke? Does He speak in order to be over analyzed and discarded?

I pray that you reconsider your position

 

[ViaCrucis]

I think it is.

The Lord came to me when I was 20 years old. I refused. I thought that I was a good person, so why would I go to hell.

Then after 7 years went by and my life went into a shambles, He came to me again at 27, and this time, I was able to repent and receive the new birth. If I had not received Him at that point, I probably would have died and missed out on being born again. That was just the way my life was heading.

Which brings me to why I asked your age. Maybe The Lord has already tried to reach you a few times and you kept refusing.

Were you planning on responding to the post I made?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

Let's assume that he is 900 years old and go from there

I don't expect to get a serious response at this point.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[eleos1954]

Then you are defying the word of God. Exceptions do not prove the rule. The thief on the cross was not baptized because he in no way had an opportunity. He would have asked for baptism had it been available. The thief accepted his fate as deserving for his sins.

He did not continue to mock Jesus and say if you are the son of God save yourself and us. He endured crucifixion willingly, and that is one of the most agonizing death one can endure and asked Jesus to remember him in the world to come. Would you be willing to endure the same agony?


As Christians, we are to live by the rule, and not the exceptions. Christ commands us to be baptized. “He who believes and is baptized will be saved”

One who is to be saved is filled with the love of God, and He says, if you love me, keep my commandments. Stop looking for exceptions to try and exempt yourself and just follow a simple command.

Baptism is a sign of obedience which is an act of faith. Defiance of baptism is a sign of disobedience and a lack of faith, despite the exceptions. How can one claim to be saved by Jesus, yet mock his simple commands? Is the Lord a joke? Does He speak in order to be over analyzed and discarded?

I pray that you reconsider your position

Everything is in Jesus .... EVERYTHING.

Jesus was baptized to represent humanity and as a sacrifice in their place.

Baptism would identify Him with that sacrificial role and symbolize His coming death and resurrection. In this way, baptism would allow Jesus and John together to "fulfill all righteousness" by publicly foreshadowing the way all sin can be forgiven.

Righteousness that is only found in Christ.

Mark 16:16 – “Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.” Belief (faith in Jesus Christ) comes before baptism. The second part of the verse affirms this when it equates unbelief (and not lack of baptism) with condemnation.

Motivation ... faith

The thief on the cross was not baptized because he in no way had an opportunity.

Right ... many people don't have the opportunity ... so it can not be a requirement.

I believe the Bible is very clear in teaching that we are saved by faith, and baptism is something that we do after we are saved.

There are people out there who have been baptized but are not saved and people never baptized who are saved.

It is Jesus who saves .... nothing else ... only He knows a persons heart.

Christ has become our sacrifice and surety. He has become sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. Through faith in His name, He imputes unto us His righteousness, and it becomes a living principle in our life.

Baptism should take place when a person is old enough to understand the Bible's truths and make a conscious choice for Christ.

When we have accepted Christ by faith—and begun a new life with Him—our baptism is an expression of what we have already experienced (saving faith).

 

[ARBITER01]

Were you planning on responding to the post I made?

-CryptoLutheran

I think I did.

Rather than trying to seek understanding from me on your possible or improbably born again status, you should be asking The Lord Jesus, not me.

I doubt you will because you trust in a material thing called water.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

Everything is in Jesus .... EVERYTHING.

Jesus was baptized to represent humanity and as a sacrifice in their place.

Baptism would identify Him with that sacrificial role and symbolize His coming death and resurrection. In this way, baptism would allow Jesus and John together to "fulfill all righteousness" by publicly foreshadowing the way all sin can be forgiven.

Righteousness that is only found in Christ.

Mark 16:16 – “Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.” Belief (faith in Jesus Christ) comes before baptism. The second part of the verse affirms this when it equates unbelief (and not lack of baptism) with condemnation.

Motivation ... faith


Right ... many people don't have the opportunity ... so it can not be a requirement.

I believe the Bible is very clear in teaching that we are saved by faith, and baptism is something that we do after we are saved.

There are people out there who have been baptized but are not saved and people never baptized who are saved.

It is Jesus who saves .... nothing else ... only He knows a persons heart.

Christ has become our sacrifice and surety. He has become sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. Through faith in His name, He imputes unto us His righteousness, and it becomes a living principle in our life.

Baptism should take place when a person is old enough to understand the Bible's truths and make a conscious choice for Christ.

When we have accepted Christ by faith—and begun a new life with Him—our baptism is an expression of what we have already experienced (saving faith).

You make a biblical error. We are not saved by faith. We are saved By grace, through faith, and that not of ourselves, it is the gift of God. Read Paul’s letter to the Ephesians

Without grace, there is no faith, as faith is one of the theological virtues that come from God alone. We are not saved by faith alone.

A born again soul receives three theological virtues at justification, Faith, Hope and Charity, but the greatest of these is Charity

Charity is defined as divine love. When one has it, he loves God with his whole heart, whole mind and whole soul. We show our love for God by studying and keeping His commandments, not by marching around and saying we have faith, yet do nothing.

1Cor13 says faith by itself without charity is nothing, we are not saved by nothing, we are saved by grace.
Those with charity obey God and get baptized. Baptism took the place of circumcision, so it is not necessary to wait until older. The Eucharist and Confirmation are graces bestowed after the age of reason

 

[ViaCrucis]

I think I did.

You didn't.

Rather than trying to seek understanding from me on your possible or improbably born again status, you should be asking The Lord Jesus, not me.

My regeneration wasn't even remotely involved in the question posed to you.

I doubt you will because you trust in a material thing called water.

You'd be wrong about that.

If you can't answer what I asked, or if you simply don't want to, that's fine.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[BobRyan]

... he speaks about the 7 sacraments, purgatory, and just how faith alone is just biblically true and tries to bully random catholics about it.
...
So my question is this. If protestants believe that strongly about faith alone, then why do they care so much to the point that they feel the need to throw out condemnation, judgment, and demonizing at us for how we practice and worship God? Us doing the wrong thing like the sacraments, praying to saints, and whatever wouldn't mean much anyway since it's all about faith alone, right?

Rom 3 has the essence of "by faith alone" teaching in it.

Rom 3:
19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as an (Atoning sacrifice) by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

In other words - we earn no merit by works. One cannot earn salvation by some sort of works.


==========================================


Acts 17:11 "they studied the scriptures daily TO SEE IF those things spoken by the Apostle Paul -- WERE SO"

A clear statement about how apostolic teaching is to be tested.

This is where Protestants get the idea that making stuff up is not a reliable practice.

 

[Paleouss]

So my question is this. If protestants believe that strongly about faith alone, then why do they care so much to the point that they feel the need to throw out condemnation, judgment, and demonizing at us for how we practice and worship God? Us doing the wrong thing like the sacraments, praying to saints, and whatever wouldn't mean much anyway since it's all about faith alone, right?

I'll give my 2 cents to the OP.

I would agree with your implication that some Christians use more salt than they should when speaking with those in which they disagree. I think sometimes they do it unknowingly. It's how they have learned to "engage", I suppose. I particularly think that some of the character assassinations that go on are not a fruit of the Spirit.

As a Protestant, I will give you my experience with Catholics who have converted to Protestantism. In my experience, somewhat of a small sample, every story had one common theme. That theme was, "I didn't really understand the significance of God's grace while in the Catholic Church".

Now how does this experience of mine give an answer to your question? It may be that the Protestants in which you are referring not only disagree with the practices you listed, but also see them as getting in the way of the proper understanding of grace and faith. Which in their minds should be the focus. The proper formula for a Protestant is... GRACE -> blood -> faith -> unto good works (emphasis on grace). Many Protestants think that the Catholic church focuses on unto-good-works to much (some may even think you don't even hold to grace and blood). In their minds, this distraction from grace along with what they see as religiosity, deemphasis what they perceive as the most important part.

Peace be with you brother

 

[boughtwithaprice]

Rom 3 has the essence of "by faith alone" teaching in it.

Rom 3:
19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as an (Atoning sacrifice) by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

In other words - we earn no merit by works. One cannot earn salvation by some sort of works.


==========================================


Acts 17:11 "they studied the scriptures daily TO SEE IF those things spoken by the Apostle Paul -- WERE SO"

A clear statement about how apostolic teaching is to be tested.

This is where Protestants get the idea that making stuff up is not a reliable practice.

You are correct, Bob, no one earns justification. It is a gift of God. That then begs the question, unto what are we saved?
The Bible says we are saved unto good works, and by those works, we will be judged.

In justification, God has given us a gift of infinite value. Do we respond in love and gratitude, thereby following His command to deny ourselves, take up our cross and follow Him? Do we mortify the deeds of our flesh, go against human nature and follow the commands that lead to life? Do we take the narrow path and enter by the straight gate?
Do we really love Him?
Or do we love our own flesh, fail to mortify our desires, basically ignore His promises and commands, yet expect Him to save us anyway?
Do we stay sinful and say God’s commands are burdensome? Do we make a show of self righteousness and issue commands He has not to exalt ourselves above other Christians?

Justification is free, and we will be judged how we use it. That is what scripture says. Other people say things that sound pious but are not.
If we have only the Bible, how do we know?

The Bible says God gave us the Church that He built. The gates of hell will not prevail against it. He did not give the same promise to individual believers. He says we are like sheep and we all go astray if left on our own. We need a shepherd and He gave us the Church by His own words

Who are we to lift our hands against God’s anointed ?

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Rom 3 has the essence of "by faith alone" teaching in it.

It doesn't though, does it. Romans chapter three has faith and being made righteous and acknowledgement that obedience to the law will not work, it is too hard, too strenuous and demanding. Living a perfect life of obedience is beyond the capacity of nearly every human being that ever lived.

Romans 3:1 Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the value of circumcision? 2 Much in every way. To begin with, the Jews are entrusted with the oracles of God. 3 What if some were unfaithful? Does their faithlessness nullify the faithfulness of God? 4 By no means! Let God be true though every man be false, as it is written, "That you may be justified in your words, and prevail when you are judged." 5 But if our wickedness serves to show the justice of God, what shall we say? That God is unjust to inflict wrath on us? (I speak in a human way.) 6 By no means! For then how could God judge the world? 7 But if through my falsehood God's truthfulness abounds to his glory, why am I still being condemned as a sinner? 8 And why not do evil that good may come? --as some people slanderously charge us with saying. Their condemnation is just.

9 What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all; for I have already charged that all men, both Jews and Greeks, are under the power of sin, 10 as it is written:

"None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands, no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside, together they have gone wrong;
no one does good, not even one."
13 "Their throat is an open grave,
they use their tongues to deceive."
"The venom of asps is under their lips."
14 "Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness."
15 "Their feet are swift to shed blood,
16 in their paths are ruin and misery,
17 and the way of peace they do not know."
18 "There is no fear of God before their eyes."​

19 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 20 For no human being will be justified in his sight by works of the law, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

We are saved by God's grace and faith is the means by which we receive and accept God's gift. Faith does not save, it is not the effective means of salvation, it is our act of receiving what God gives.

 

[BobRyan]

You are correct, Bob, no one earns justification. It is a gift of God. That then begs the question, unto what are we saved?
The Bible says we are saved unto good works, and by those works, we will be judged.

agreed.

Matt 7 - by their fruits you shall know them

In justification, God has given us a gift of infinite value. Do we respond in love and gratitude, thereby following His command to deny ourselves, take up our cross and follow Him? Do we mortify the deeds of our flesh, go against human nature and follow the commands that lead to life? Do we take the narrow path and enter by the straight gate?

agreed... -- the fruit of the good tree in Matt 7 - is the Gal 5 fruits of the Spirit.

They do not make us born-again saved saints - rather they show if we are one - show if we are a good tree. No matter how old the tree - it should still have the fruit of that kind of tree it is - either good or bad.

The Bible says God gave us the Church that He built.

It does not say that. IT says we ARE the church

We need a shepherd and He gave us the Church by His own words

No text says we have been given the church as our shepherd
No text says we have been given the church -- rather we are the church.

 

[BobRyan]

Rom 3 has the essence of "by faith alone" teaching in it.

Rom 3:
19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as an (Atoning sacrifice) by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

In other words - we earn not merit by works. One cannot earn salvation by some sort of works.

It doesn't though, does it.

it says

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

Romans chapter three has faith and being made righteous and acknowledgement that obedience to the law will not work, it is too hard, too strenuous and demanding.

it says "All have sinned" Rom 3:23

Rom 8:6-9 says it is only those without the Holy Spirit who "do not submit to the Law of God - neither indeed can they"

We are saved by God's grace and faith is the means by which we receive and accept God's gift.

agreed

Faith does not save, it is not the effective means of salvation, it is our act of receiving what God gives.

true. "Saved by grace through faith" Eph 2:8-9

 

[BobRyan]

Back to the OP regarding the "added things" like Purgatory , indulgences, prayers to the dead (ie "Communion with the dead" as stated in the Catechism) , indulgences, sacraments with powers to mark the soul if a priest with such powers administers them, confecting the body, blood, soul and divinity of Christ..

Those teachings appear to be in conflict with "saved by grace through faith" and don't pass the Acts 17:11 test.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

agreed.

Matt 7 - by their fruits you shall know them

agreed... -- the fruit of the good tree in Matt 7 - is the Gal 5 fruits of the Spirit.

They do not make us born-again saved saints - rather they show if we are one - show if we are a good tree. No matter how hold the tree - it should still have the fruit of that kind of tree it is - either good or bad.

It does not say that. IT says we ARE the church

No text says we have been given the church as our shepherd
No text says we have been given the church -- rather we are the church.

If it said we are the Church, then the Bible would be self contradictory. The primary virtue of Christianity is humility. Christ says the greatest among you shall be your servant.

This is demonstrated by The epistle to the Philippians chapter 2

6 Who being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men, and in habit found as a man. 8 He humbled himself, becoming obedient unto death, even to the death of the cross.

God also says I desire obedience rather than sacrifice.
1Sam15:22
Jeremiah 7:21-23


It God did not want us to obey, but to interpret the Bible for ourselves, therefore subjecting the word of God to the imaginations of men, what meaning do the commands to obey have?
Seems like if I interpret for myself, I don’t have to obey anyone. I can claim to know God for myself and then make God subject to my understanding. If God then is subject to my understanding, how then can He be God? Would not I put myself in His place?

Jesus also tell us that we are not to become our own Pope, create our own churches and proclaim our own gospel based on our own biblical understanding. He does not tell us to do that. He says we are to be as children and accept the teaching of our elders. Matthew 18:3

When we go back to the beginning of the Church, we see our Blessed Mother Mary, from whom came the savior and Peter, the rock on whom Christ built His Church. Most Protestants have discarded both. They say we know better
Good did not really mean what He said, He means what we say.
I know that is not your intention, but it is how you come across and how most everyone that claims sola scriptura sounds

What did scripture prophesy about Mary?

34- And Simeon blessed them, and said to Mary his mother: Behold this child is set for the fall, and for the resurrection of many in Israel, and for a sign which shall be contradicted [Luke 2:34] 35 And thy own soul a sword shall pierce, that, out of many hearts, thoughts may be revealed.

Why would it say that? It is how we treat Mary, that reveals the thoughts of our heart.

What would you say if you heard of a woman in whom grew the creator of the universe bodily? The same creator sucked at her breast and was obedient to her for thirty years. God the creator subjected himself to that woman. God even held back His saving ministry until she asked Him to reveal Himself. Woman, what had this to do with me and thee, my hour has not yet come? Then she said do whatever He tells you.
She was His mother and had Him all to herself for 30 years, but she knew He was the lamb of God to take away the sin of the world. She knew it was time to end her sole relationship and give Jesus to the world. What would you say about that woman?

Scripture says that what you say about her reveals the thoughts of your heart. I would choose my words carefully. Especially before I elevated another woman that claimed to have visions of heaven above her.

Did Mary exalt herself or take the path of humility? What does scripture say?

41 And it came to pass, that when Elizabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the infant leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost: 42 And she cried out with a loud voice, and said: Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. 43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44 For behold as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in my ears, the infant in my womb leaped for joy. 45 And blessed art thou that hast believed, because those things shall be accomplished that were spoken to thee by the Lord.

46 And Mary said: My soul doth magnify the Lord. 47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. 48 Because he hath regarded the humility of his handmaid; for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. 49 Because he that is mighty, hath done great things to me; and holy is his name. 50 And his mercy is from generation unto generations, to them that fear him


We note that it was at the sound of Mary’s voice that John lept in the womb of Elizabeth. Calling God her savior does not imply sin, nor does immaculate conception elevate her to divinity. There are two ways to be saved. We can be saved from falling, or we can be rescued and once we have fallen. Both require a savior, and it does not imply sin in Mary.

Would we rejoice at Mary’s voice and begin to dance as David danced before the Ark of the Lord, or do we discard her as the same level as us who have fallen or even think that Jesus loves us more than her? Scripture is true when it says that thoughts of many hearts will be revealed. It did to me, and I was crushed with shame and repented. I pray that for others also.

Ezekiel prophesied of the New Covenant Church

Ezekiel 37

22- And I will make them one nation in the land on the mountains of Israel, and one king shall be king over them all: and they shall no more be two nations, neither shall they be divided any more into two kingdoms [Ezechiel (Ezeckiel) 37:22] 23 Nor shall they be defiled any more with their idols, nor with their abominations, nor with all their iniquities: and I will save them out of all the places in which they have sinned, and I will cleanse them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God. 24 And my servant David shall be king over them, and they shall have one shepherd: they shall walk in my judgments, and shall keep my commandments, and shall do them.


There is only one shepherd, not 38,000. In the Gospel of Matthew, Jesus tells us who it is

17 And Jesus answering, said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven. 18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hellshall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.


When Jesus spoke Aramaic, as He said this, there was no Petra and petros, only rock. The use of gendered words is a Greek translation not contained in the original. He also did not say to the twelve, you are my council and on this council, I will build my Church

Jesus breathed on the Apostles and gave them the power to forgive sins, not to each individual reader of the Bible.

John 20

[21] He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. [22] When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. [23] Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained


The tongues of fire landed on the Apostles, not all readers of the Bible. 2 Peter1 confirms that interpretation of scripture is given to the Apostles.

16 For we have not by following artificial fables, made known to you the power, and presence of our Lord Jesus Christ; but we were eyewitnesses of his greatness. 17 For he received from God the Father, honour and glory: this voice coming down to him from the excellent glory: This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him. 18 And this voice we heard brought from heaven, when we were with him in the holy mount. 19 And we have the more firm prophetical word: whereunto you do well to attend, as to a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 20 Understanding this first, that no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation.
21 For prophecy came not by the will of man at any time: but the holy men of God spoke, inspired by the Holy Ghost.

How can scripture say that everyone has to read the Bible on their own and come to their own conclusions when it says it is of no private interpretation? That is not reasonable. We conclude, as the little children Christ tells us to be, that we need to listen to Apostolic teaching

The Apostolic teaching was demonstrated by Iraneus in the second century. Why have private interpretation and not follow the Apostles?

If you say the Church apostatized so early in her formation, then you make Christ a liar, as the gates of hell would have prevailed against His Church. If you say that there was evil in the Church and believers had to leave, you ignore the teaching on the wheat and the tares.

Of course Satan would send in tares in an attempt to destroy God’s Church, but He never gave us the authority to leave and build a new one. If you believe in the Sabbath, you know God creates and then He rests. He built his Church, and then He rested. We were not authorized to use the will of men to build a new one

Scripture says, unless God builds the house, they labor in vain that build it. Psalm 127 (126 Douay-Rheims)

Why would I abandon Apostolic teaching to follow the imaginations of men? Do they claim to have heard the voice coming from heaven as the Apostles did? Have they been baptized with tongues of fire in the Holy Spirit? I know the Apostles were, but modern men that claim to be teachers of the Word, yet abandon the Apostles leave me wondering


Bob, I know you to be a sincere man that tries to rely on Scripture, and I have shown you the reasoning of the Apostolic teaching. The Apostles do not discard or contradict scripture. What would make your interpretation of it superior to theirs? It can’t be sola scriptura as they have used only scripture to reveal the truth of the Gospel. What makes your reading of scripture more correct?

 

[BobRyan]

If it said we are the Church, then the Bible would be self contradictory.

On the contrary - scripture clearly teaches we are the church, we are the body of Christ, the house of God​

​

1 Peter 4:17 For it is time for judgment to begin at the household of God; and if it begins with us, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God? ​

1 Pet 2:5 You yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

Heb 3:5 Now Moses was faithful in all God’s house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken later; 6 but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house—whose house we are, if we hold firmly to our confidence and the boast of our hope.

1 Thess 1:1 Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace.
Eph 1:22-23 And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all.

1 Cor 1:2 To the church of God which is in Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours:
1 Cor 12:27 Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it.

Acts 15: 4 And when they had come to Jerusalem, they were received by the church and the apostles and the elders; and they reported all things that God had done with them.

​

It God did not want us to obey, but to interpret the Bible for ourselves, therefore subjecting the word of God to the imaginations of men, what meaning do the commands to obey have?

Acts 17:11 "they studied the scriptures daily TO SEE IF those things spoken by the APOSTLE Paul - were SO" --

Clearly scripture teaches that we can read scripture and then test Apostolic teaching against what we read in scripture "TO SEE IF" those things the apostles teach - are true or not.

That is a key feature of the New Covenant of Jer 31:31-34 and Heb 8

Jesus also tell us that we are not to become our own Pope

Mark 7:7-13 demonstrates the method of slam hammering established supposedly infallible church tradition "sola scriptura"

When we go back to the beginning of the Church, we see our Blessed Mother Mary, from whom came the savior

No scripture says "The savior came from Mary" -- rather it says He came from the Father. See John 17 for details.

and Peter, the rock on whom Christ built His Church.

Matt 16 says Peter is the "pebble" and that the foundation stone "Petra" is Christ the rock (see 1 Cor 3)

In Matt 16 Christ said to Peter "get thee behind Me Satan", so clearly was having a bit of a fumble just then - in that chapter you are referencing.

What did scripture prophesy about Mary?

34- And Simeon blessed them, and said to Mary his mother: Behold this child is set for the fall, and for the resurrection of many in Israel, and for a sign which shall be contradicted [Luke 2:34] 35 And thy own soul a sword shall pierce, that, out of many hearts, thoughts may be revealed.

Why would it say that?

It says the way we treat Jesus "the child" from heaven shows the thoughts of the heart

It is how we treat Mary, that reveals the thoughts of our heart.

seems like a direct contradiction of the text you just quoted.

What would you say if you heard of a woman in whom grew the creator of the universe bodily? The same creator sucked at her breast and was obedient to her for thirty years.

Someone tried that idea out with Jesus in the gospels in Luke 11. Jesus' response was "on the contrary..."

27 While Jesus was saying these things, one of the women in the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that carried You, and the breasts at which You nursed!” 28 But He said, “On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and follow it.”