If the Resurrection and Rapture are seen as a harvest.. then.. the 7th year...

[Jamdoc]

So this video goes into the idea of the Resurrection and Rapture being seen as a harvest, which in Jesus' parables it is portrayed that way, and in some of Paul's Epistles it's termed as a harvest as well. Using this idea, by Mosaic law, the Resurrection and Rapture cannot happen at the beginning or the end of the 70th week, given that the 70th week acts as a shabuim. This would basically make the "Post-trib rapture" that places it at the end of the 70th week as illegal, and also limits a pre-trib rapture as not being able to happen in the year prior to the beginning of the 70th week (it'd have to happen more than a year before the beginning of the 70th week)

Now there are counterarguments such as not being under the Mosaic law, and that people are kind of stretching to apply harvest laws to the resurrection to begin with (though the same language IS used, even in Revelation 14 Jesus reaps the Earth, but that is not definitive since it is used as an analogy).

But this idea, were it to be true, limits the pretribulation rapture to a degree forcing it to be further away from the beginning of the 70th week, completely rules out the "post-trib" rapture that is really more of a post wrath rapture, and allows for mid trib, pre-wrath, or Doug's "any time before the abomination of desolation" rapture.

an interesting idea at least, and they do have scripture to back up the idea.

 

[tranquil]

So this video goes into the idea of the Resurrection and Rapture being seen as a harvest, which in Jesus' parables it is portrayed that way, and in some of Paul's Epistles it's termed as a harvest as well. Using this idea, by Mosaic law, the Resurrection and Rapture cannot happen at the beginning or the end of the 70th week, given that the 70th week acts as a shabuim. This would basically make the "Post-trib rapture" that places it at the end of the 70th week as illegal, and also limits a pre-trib rapture as not being able to happen in the year prior to the beginning of the 70th week (it'd have to happen more than a year before the beginning of the 70th week)

Now there are counterarguments such as not being under the Mosaic law, and that people are kind of stretching to apply harvest laws to the resurrection to begin with (though the same language IS used, even in Revelation 14 Jesus reaps the Earth, but that is not definitive since it is used as an analogy).

But this idea, were it to be true, limits the pretribulation rapture to a degree forcing it to be further away from the beginning of the 70th week, completely rules out the "post-trib" rapture that is really more of a post wrath rapture, and allows for mid trib, pre-wrath, or Doug's "any time before the abomination of desolation" rapture.

an interesting idea at least, and they do have scripture to back up the idea.

1. The gathering is a harvest. Yes
2. The gathering is not a rapture. The harvest is not a rapture.
3. 2032 is not a Jubilee year. It seems to be fairly established, not disputed, that Israelites entered the land in 1406 BC. 70 Jubilee cycles completes on Nisan 10, 2025. 70 x 49 = 3430 years. 1406BC + 3430 = 2025 AD. This is simple math.
4. 2028 completes 80 years (Psalm 90:10) and looks to be the 'harvest at the end of the age'. Literally.
5. The notions of pre-trib, pre-wrath, and post-trib are meaningless. The term '70th week' means nothing. There is no 7 year tribulation as it is cut short for the sake of the elect.

 

[Jamdoc]

1. The gathering is a harvest. Yes
2. The gathering is not a rapture. The harvest is not a rapture.
3. 2032 is not a Jubilee year. It seems to be fairly established, not disputed, that Israelites entered the land in 1406 BC. 70 Jubilee cycles completes on Nisan 10, 2025. 70 x 49 = 3430 years. 1406BC + 3430 = 2025 AD. This is simple math.
4. 2028 completes 80 years (Psalm 90:10) and looks to be the 'harvest at the end of the age'. Literally.
5. The notions of pre-trib, pre-wrath, and post-trib are meaningless. The term '70th week' means nothing. There is no 7 year tribulation as it is cut short for the sake of the elect.

Yeah I DEFINITELY discard the numbered years they use, they're basing it on some Messiah 2030 video that was floating around Youtube and claiming that the UN summit for the future is the covenant with the many. But the bible spells out how that comes to pass and there's several things that have to happen that lead to the arise of the little horn first.
but at the same time I also discard your dated years for the same reason.
But the concept of the Resurrection and Rapture being like a harvest and thus would obey harvest laws and sabbath years is intriguing.

 

[tranquil]

Yeah I DEFINITELY discard the numbered years they use, they're basing it on some Messiah 2030 video that was floating around Youtube and claiming that the UN summit for the future is the covenant with the many. But the bible spells out how that comes to pass and there's several things that have to happen that lead to the arise of the little horn first.
but at the same time I also discard your dated years for the same reason.
But the concept of the Resurrection and Rapture being like a harvest and thus would obey harvest laws and sabbath years is intriguing.

what is wrong with 2028?

 

[Jamdoc]

what is wrong with 2028?

Well I discard the view that Daniel 8 and 11 are about historical events, namely because there is no logical break in the narrative to say "well this part is about Alexander and Antiochus Epiphanes but this part is about the end of the age", and Gabriel said in Daniel 8 that the vision was an end times vision, all of it.

and so things that are in Daniel 8 and 11 have to happen first. Persia (Iran) has to lash out in all directions when they reach their 4th "king" (we're still on #2), "Javan" (which gets translated to Greece but isn't the actual word in the Hebrew, it's Javan one of the descendants of Japheth in Genesis 10, identifying a people group that settled around Istanbul which was Greek in History but is Turkey now) conquers them, then that first king of Javan is killed, it's divided into 4 regions.

Antichrist rises up from the Northern Region of those 4.

None of those things is in play right now, and so we're not within 7 years yet. nor are we on the eve of the covenant being confirmed by the Little Horn either.
It's all years away, and so.. I think we should be watching for Iran to have a 3rd, and then 4th "King" the 4th being more powerful than the 3 preceding (the 12th Imam?), now that could happen shortly. Khamenei is old and has had his prostate cancer return so he's on borrowed time. He'll be succeeded by the 3rd supreme leader. How long that leader's reign could last it could be short. If a 4th leader is more powerful than any of the previous 3 it could be sweeping and quick. If anything I think 2028 or 2030 is more likely to be the start than the end.

 

[tranquil]

Well I discard the view that Daniel 8 and 11 are about historical events, namely because there is no logical break in the narrative to say "well this part is about Alexander and Antiochus Epiphanes but this part is about the end of the age", and Gabriel said in Daniel 8 that the vision was an end times vision, all of it.

and so things that are in Daniel 8 and 11 have to happen first. Persia (Iran) has to lash out in all directions when they reach their 4th "king" (we're still on #2), "Javan" (which gets translated to Greece but isn't the actual word in the Hebrew, it's Javan one of the descendants of Japheth in Genesis 10, identifying a people group that settled around Istanbul which was Greek in History but is Turkey now) conquers them, then that first king of Javan is killed, it's divided into 4 regions.

Antichrist rises up from the Northern Region of those 4.

None of those things is in play right now, and so we're not within 7 years yet. nor are we on the eve of the covenant being confirmed by the Little Horn either.
It's all years away, and so.. I think we should be watching for Iran to have a 3rd, and then 4th "King" the 4th being more powerful than the 3 preceding (the 12th Imam?), now that could happen shortly. Khamenei is old and has had his prostate cancer return so he's on borrowed time. He'll be succeeded by the 3rd supreme leader. How long that leader's reign could last it could be short. If a 4th leader is more powerful than any of the previous 3 it could be sweeping and quick. If anything I think 2028 or 2030 is more likely to be the start than the end.

I agree that Dan 8 & 11 are end times.

Dan 8's 2300 days is easily explained in terms of Revelation:

the 5 months of the 1st woe (Rev 9:5) + the hour, day, month, year (Rev 9:15) + 1260 days (Rev 11:3 + 3.5 days (Rev 11:11) = 1809.75 days + 70 weeks (Dan 9:24's to finish the transgression, after the 1290 days transgression) = 2299.75 days

150 + 1 hour +1 + 30 + 365.25 + 1260 + 3.5 = 1809.75 days + 1 hour + 490 days = 2299.75 days + 1 hour = 2300 days

As to Daniel's fourth vision (Dan 10-12), the only timeframes we are given are: time, times, and half a time; 1290 days; 1335 days.

The 'man in linen' of Daniel 10 is the angel of Daniel 12 and is the mighty angel of Revelation 10.

Dan 10:4 On the twenty-fourth day of the first month, as I was standing on the bank of the great river, the Tigris, 5 I lifted up my eyes, and behold, there was a certain man dressed in linen, with a belt of fine gold from Uphaz around his waist. 6 His body was like beryl, his face like the brilliance of lightning, his eyes like flaming torches, his arms and legs like the gleam of polished bronze, and his voice like the sound of a multitude.​

​

Dan 12:7 And the man dressed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, raised his right hand and his left hand toward heaven, and I heard him swear by Him who lives forever, saying, “It will be for a time, and times, and half a time. When the power of the holy people has finally been shattered, all these things will be completed.”​

​

is​

​

Rev 10:1 Then I saw another mighty angel coming down from heaven, wrapped in a cloud, with a rainbow above his head. His face was like the sun, and his legs were like pillars of fire. 2 He held in his hand a small scroll, which lay open. He placed his right foot on the sea and his left foot on the land. 3 Then he cried out in a loud voice like the roar of a lion. And when he cried out, the seven thunders sounded their voices.​

4 When the seven thunders had spoken, I was about to put it in writing. But I heard a voice from heaven saying, “Seal up what the seven thunders have said, and do not write it down.”​

​

5 Then the angel I had seen standing on the sea and on the land lifted up his right hand to heaven. 6 And he swore by Him who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and everything in it, the earth and everything in it, and the sea and everything in it: “There will be no more delay! 7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be fulfilled, just as He proclaimed to His servants the prophets.”​

​

The 'time, times, and a half time' that follows the angel swearing an oath to heaven is when the power of the holy people is shattered and then the vision is over. This is the same time period where the mighty angel swears an oath and says things will be finished at the 7th Trumpet - the 7th Trumpet will occur 1260 days later (same 1260 days as the 2 witnesses that follow in Rev 11. The two witnesses are the 'holy people' who are being shattered.

We don't really know when the 4 kings are to rise in Persia and what time-frame it ends. Presumably, the last king of Persia (the 4th one) is when God places His throne in Elam (Jer 49:37-39). When the 4th king arrives he wages war against the Greeks (possibly to Israel's benefit as the Greeks are oppressing them). We don't know what entity this king of Greece/ Javan is.

Is Greece/ Javan the leopard of Dan 7 that splits into 4 heads?

Does the king of the North even refer to the four winds splitting of the Leopard (Javan) into the kings of the N, S, E, W?

Is the King of the North referring to northern 10 tribes Israel? Would this make it the Daniel 7 4th Beast?

Daniel 11 is just a mess. The many wars here seem to be the Dan 9:26's 'until the end there will be war'.

It is entirely possible that the entire vision (Dan 10-12) is encapsulated within the 1290 or 1335 days.

 

[Jamdoc]

I agree that Dan 8 & 11 are end times.

Good

Dan 8's 2300 days is easily explained in terms of Revelation:

the 5 months of the 1st woe (Rev 9:5) + the hour, day, month, year (Rev 9:15) + 1260 days (Rev 11:3 + 3.5 days (Rev 11:11) = 1809.75 days + 70 weeks (Dan 9:24's to finish the transgression, after the 1290 days transgression) = 2299.75 days

150 + 1 hour +1 + 30 + 365.25 + 1260 + 3.5 = 1809.75 days + 1 hour + 490 days = 2299.75 days + 1 hour = 2300 days

As to Daniel's fourth vision (Dan 10-12), the only timeframes we are given are: time, times, and half a time; 1290 days; 1335 days.

The 'man in linen' of Daniel 10 is the angel of Daniel 12 and is the mighty angel of Revelation 10.

I thought the man in linen was Jesus, as the man in linen COMMANDS the angels to reveal things to Daniel.

Dan 10:4 On the twenty-fourth day of the first month, as I was standing on the bank of the great river, the Tigris, 5 I lifted up my eyes, and behold, there was a certain man dressed in linen, with a belt of fine gold from Uphaz around his waist. 6 His body was like beryl, his face like the brilliance of lightning, his eyes like flaming torches, his arms and legs like the gleam of polished bronze, and his voice like the sound of a multitude.​

​

Dan 12:7 And the man dressed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, raised his right hand and his left hand toward heaven, and I heard him swear by Him who lives forever, saying, “It will be for a time, and times, and half a time. When the power of the holy people has finally been shattered, all these things will be completed.”​

​

is​

​

Rev 10:1 Then I saw another mighty angel coming down from heaven, wrapped in a cloud, with a rainbow above his head. His face was like the sun, and his legs were like pillars of fire. 2 He held in his hand a small scroll, which lay open. He placed his right foot on the sea and his left foot on the land. 3 Then he cried out in a loud voice like the roar of a lion. And when he cried out, the seven thunders sounded their voices.​

4 When the seven thunders had spoken, I was about to put it in writing. But I heard a voice from heaven saying, “Seal up what the seven thunders have said, and do not write it down.”​

​

5 Then the angel I had seen standing on the sea and on the land lifted up his right hand to heaven. 6 And he swore by Him who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and everything in it, the earth and everything in it, and the sea and everything in it: “There will be no more delay! 7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be fulfilled, just as He proclaimed to His servants the prophets.”​

​

The 'time, times, and a half time' that follows the angel swearing an oath to heaven is when the power of the holy people is shattered and then the vision is over. This is the same time period where the mighty angel swears an oath and says things will be finished at the 7th Trumpet - the 7th Trumpet will occur 1260 days later (same 1260 days as the 2 witnesses that follow in Rev 11. The two witnesses are the 'holy people' who are being shattered.

We don't really know when the 4 kings are to rise in Persia and what time-frame it ends. Presumably, the last king of Persia (the 4th one) is when God places His throne in Elam (Jer 49:37-39). When the 4th king arrives he wages war against the Greeks (possibly to Israel's benefit as the Greeks are oppressing them). We don't know what entity this king of Greece/ Javan is.

I think the 4th King in Persia is not God, that comes after, but my understanding of that is that that 4th King goes against Javan, Javan conquers Persia, and is then itself broken up into 4 different kingdoms, by what appears to be an outside force (the Kingdom shall be broken, not ... the King dies of a fever and then his generals divide up the spoils between themselves) as they divide up the kingdoms not according to the first king's Dominion, IE they're not people he'd appoint.

Turkey, which occupies the lands that were referred to as Javan biblically these days, is Sunni, Iran (Persia) is Shi'a. Both have their own version of the Mahdi. If Iran announces they have the 12th Imam (which could be their 4th more powerful king), it'd anger the entire Sunni world, who have their own version of the Mahdi.

So that's my understanding of it/speculation on it, that there's an war between Turkey and Iran over their differing sects of Islam and the claim to the Mahdi.

Is Greece/ Javan the leopard of Dan 7 that splits into 4 heads?

Javan, yes, as to whether that's the EU Greece, or Tureky I lean towards Turkey but I'll keep the term Javan to not impose my speculation into the text. Something I believe translators should have done rather than translate it as Greece because they believed it was about Alexander the Great, the 23rd King of Macedonia, who was titled Alexander III.. not the first king.

Does the king of the North even refer to the four winds splitting of the Leopard (Javan) into the kings of the N, S, E, W?

I believe so, as that's what context in Daniel 11 would suggest, it gives us the breaking up of Javan into 4 kingdoms nsew, and then talks about the king of the North and King of the South.

Is the King of the North referring to northern 10 tribes Israel? Would this make it the Daniel 7 4th Beast?

There's a theory about this because of the way the beast has 10 horns so 10 lost tribes of the Northern Kingdom, and the False Prophet has 2 horns, so the 2 Southern Tribes but I don't really hold to it, as 2 of the 10 tribes were lost, like, Revelation 7 has no tribe of Ephraim or Dan, they're cut off forever.

Daniel 11 is just a mess. The many wars here seem to be the Dan 9:26's 'until the end there will be war'.

It is entirely possible that the entire vision (Dan 10-12) is encapsulated within the 1290 or 1335 days.

I dunno, I see the "mess" as taking several years. That's part of why I discard notions of 2028 or 2030 being the return of Jesus and more think that maybe by then we'll have the covenant of the many get confirmed in like 2030, making Jesus' return be several years after that (but I do believe Jesus returns before the 7th year, and this harvest law thing kind of points to that, that Jesus would return in the 6th year and the 7th year would be a Sabbath for the righteous but the wrath of God for the unrighteous)

Isaiah 63

4 For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.

 

[tranquil]

Good

I thought the man in linen was Jesus, as the man in linen COMMANDS the angels to reveal things to Daniel.



I think the 4th King in Persia is not God, that comes after, but my understanding of that is that that 4th King goes against Javan, Javan conquers Persia, and is then itself broken up into 4 different kingdoms, by what appears to be an outside force (the Kingdom shall be broken, not ... the King dies of a fever and then his generals divide up the spoils between themselves) as they divide up the kingdoms not according to the first king's Dominion, IE they're not people he'd appoint.

Turkey, which occupies the lands that were referred to as Javan biblically these days, is Sunni, Iran (Persia) is Shi'a. Both have their own version of the Mahdi. If Iran announces they have the 12th Imam (which could be their 4th more powerful king), it'd anger the entire Sunni world, who have their own version of the Mahdi.

So that's my understanding of it/speculation on it, that there's an war between Turkey and Iran over their differing sects of Islam and the claim to the Mahdi.

Javan, yes, as to whether that's the EU Greece, or Tureky I lean towards Turkey but I'll keep the term Javan to not impose my speculation into the text. Something I believe translators should have done rather than translate it as Greece because they believed it was about Alexander the Great, the 23rd King of Macedonia, who was titled Alexander III.. not the first king.

I believe so, as that's what context in Daniel 11 would suggest, it gives us the breaking up of Javan into 4 kingdoms nsew, and then talks about the king of the North and King of the South.

There's a theory about this because of the way the beast has 10 horns so 10 lost tribes of the Northern Kingdom, and the False Prophet has 2 horns, so the 2 Southern Tribes but I don't really hold to it, as 2 of the 10 tribes were lost, like, Revelation 7 has no tribe of Ephraim or Dan, they're cut off forever.

I dunno, I see the "mess" as taking several years. That's part of why I discard notions of 2028 or 2030 being the return of Jesus and more think that maybe by then we'll have the covenant of the many get confirmed in like 2030, making Jesus' return be several years after that (but I do believe Jesus returns before the 7th year, and this harvest law thing kind of points to that, that Jesus would return in the 6th year and the 7th year would be a Sabbath for the righteous but the wrath of God for the unrighteous)

Isaiah 63

I thought the man in linen was Jesus, as the man in linen COMMANDS the angels to reveal things to Daniel.

I'm not sure where this is that you are talking about. Are you talking about this?

Dan 12:5Then I, Daniel, looked and saw two others standing there, one on this bank of the river and one on the opposite bank. 6One of them said to the man dressed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, “How long until the fulfillment of these wonders?”​

These are 2 other angels who are 2 witnesses of sorts to the man in linen (angel) making an oath to heaven. It is possible that these 2 witness angels + the angel of Persia + the angel of Greece are the 4 angels of the Euphrates in the 6th Trumpet (Rev 9:14).

Or Michael, the man in linen, Persia's angel, and Greece's angel are the 4 angels of the Euphrates. But then the Rev 10 angel does not seem to be part of these 4 angels in Rev 9:14.

Or they represent the 2 witnesses of Rev 11 who are witnesses to the oath/ covenant in Rev 10.

Anyway, it is the other angels who are talking to the man in linen, who I surmise is 'Lucifer' 'Morning Star' the king of Babylon in Isaiah 14.

The man in linen is not Gabriel because Daniel knows what Gabriel looks like from Dan 8 & 9.

I dunno, I see the "mess" as taking several years. That's part of why I discard notions of 2028 or 2030 being the return of Jesus and more think that maybe by then we'll have the covenant of the many get confirmed in like 2030, making Jesus' return be several years after that (but I do believe Jesus returns before the 7th year, and this harvest law thing kind of points to that, that Jesus would return in the 6th year and the 7th year would be a Sabbath for the righteous but the wrath of God for the unrighteous)

But you have nothing to really hang your hat on. You think it could take several years. When would it have started? The text doesn't say anything taking years. It only mentions the time, times, half time, 1290 days, and 1335 days.

There have been many kings of Iran. How would a 4th Supreme Ayatollah even be applied to anything in Dan 11?

 

[Jamdoc]

I'm not sure where this is that you are talking about. Are you talking about this?

Dan 12:5Then I, Daniel, looked and saw two others standing there, one on this bank of the river and one on the opposite bank. 6One of them said to the man dressed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, “How long until the fulfillment of these wonders?”​

These are 2 other angels who are 2 witnesses of sorts to the man in linen (angel) making an oath to heaven. It is possible that these 2 witness angels + the angel of Persia + the angel of Greece are the 4 angels of the Euphrates in the 6th Trumpet (Rev 9:14).

Or Michael, the man in linen, Persia's angel, and Greece's angel are the 4 angels of the Euphrates. But then the Rev 10 angel does not seem to be part of these 4 angels in Rev 9:14.

Or they represent the 2 witnesses of Rev 11 who are witnesses to the oath/ covenant in Rev 10.

Anyway, it is the other angels who are talking to the man in linen, who I surmise is 'Lucifer' 'Morning Star' the king of Babylon in Isaiah 14.

The man in linen is not Gabriel because Daniel knows what Gabriel looks like from Dan 8 & 9.

So there are 2 "saints" one of them being the Angel Gabriel that are talking, but there's another person who is not one of those 2 who speaks

Daniel 8:

16 And I heard a man's voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision.

That's who I mean where I believe that to be Jesus. But I guess that's not the man in linen in Daniel 10-12, that does appear to be the mighty angel from Revelation 10.

But you have nothing to really hang your hat on. You think it could take several years. When would it have started? The text doesn't say anything taking years. It only mentions the time, times, half time, 1290 days, and 1335 days.

There have been many kings of Iran. How would a 4th Supreme Ayatollah even be applied to anything in Dan 11?

Because this would be specifically about the leaders since the Islamic Revolution. Not any leaders before that.
There's been Ayatollah Khomeini, and Ayatollah Khamenei
2 supreme leaders, which if this were to happen in our times would mean, 2 more.we'd need to go through 2 more leaders, a war between Persia and Javan that Javan wins (and in this case it'd have to be modern day Turkiye led by Erdogan), then that revived Ottoman Empire broken up, the Kingdom of the North and South to have political ties and a marriage between them but then go to war, the King of the North dying, being replaced by a raiser of taxes, who is then replaced by a vile man, that vile man would THEN be in position of leadership where he could confirm a covenant.

Until the vile man can confirm the covenant, starting out as a nobody who does not have the right to rule, we don't even enter any 7 year window, much less a 3.5 year window.

 

[Matt5]

Isaiah 17 - The obliteration of Damascus
Isaiah 17:5
It shall be as when the harvester gathers the grain,
And reaps the heads with his arm;
It shall be as he who gathers heads of grain
In the Valley of Rephaim.

IDK, that particular harvest doesn't sound like a nice little gathering to me. The video might be stretching a bit.

 

[Jamdoc]

Isaiah 17 - The obliteration of Damascus
Isaiah 17:5
It shall be as when the harvester gathers the grain,
And reaps the heads with his arm;
It shall be as he who gathers heads of grain
In the Valley of Rephaim.

IDK, that particular harvest doesn't sound like a nice little gathering to me. The video might be stretching a bit.

There's 2 "harvests"
the wheat goes into the "barn", IE taken from the fields and stored somewhere else
and the tares are gathered up and burned.

Revelation 14 has 2 reapings.
the first reaping is done by the Son of Man on the clouds, it is not put into the winepress.
the second reaping is done by angels, and they are put through the winepress of God's wrath.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

So this video goes into the idea of the Resurrection and Rapture being seen as a harvest, which in Jesus' parables it is portrayed that way, and in some of Paul's Epistles it's termed as a harvest as well. Using this idea, by Mosaic law, the Resurrection and Rapture cannot happen at the beginning or the end of the 70th week, given that the 70th week acts as a shabuim. This would basically make the "Post-trib rapture" that places it at the end of the 70th week as illegal, and also limits a pre-trib rapture as not being able to happen in the year prior to the beginning of the 70th week (it'd have to happen more than a year before the beginning of the 70th week)

Now there are counterarguments such as not being under the Mosaic law, and that people are kind of stretching to apply harvest laws to the resurrection to begin with (though the same language IS used, even in Revelation 14 Jesus reaps the Earth, but that is not definitive since it is used as an analogy).

But this idea, were it to be true, limits the pretribulation rapture to a degree forcing it to be further away from the beginning of the 70th week, completely rules out the "post-trib" rapture that is really more of a post wrath rapture, and allows for mid trib, pre-wrath, or Doug's "any time before the abomination of desolation" rapture.

an interesting idea at least, and they do have scripture to back up the idea.

There are a few very powerful ways to prove the pre-Trib rapture. First, Jesus promised it, though indirectly, in Rev 3:10 (ESV): Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.

Jesus said, "I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, ..." That can only mean that all believers are kept from entering Daniel's 70th week. We are kept from it, hence, we are raptured to Heaven.

The rapture to Heaven is assured by Rev 4:1 because that verse will only occur in the future. Lots of folks like to claim that Rev 4:1 was merely for transporting Apostle John to Heaven concerning the writing of Revelation. The problem with that theory is that Apostle John provably never left the island of Patmos during the entire time he was receiving his vision of Revelation. The verse that best proves that is Rev 22:8 (ESV): I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me,

John was shown all he heard and saw regarding Revelation, by one very capable angel. Therefore, Rev 4:1 truly is a future event, the pre-Trib rapture of the Church (all living and resurrected believers at the time of 1 Th 4:16-17).

 

[Jamdoc]

There are a few very powerful ways to prove the pre-Trib rapture. First, Jesus promised it, though indirectly, in Rev 3:10 (ESV): Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.

Jesus said, "I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, ..." That can only mean that all believers are kept from entering Daniel's 70th week. We are kept from it, hence, we are raptured to Heaven.

The rapture to Heaven is assured by Rev 4:1 because that verse will only occur in the future. Lots of folks like to claim that Rev 4:1 was merely for transporting Apostle John to Heaven concerning the writing of Revelation. The problem with that theory is that Apostle John provably never left the island of Patmos during the entire time he was receiving his vision of Revelation. The verse that best proves that is Rev 22:8 (ESV): I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me,

John was shown all he heard and saw regarding Revelation, by one very capable angel. Therefore, Rev 4:1 truly is a future event, the pre-Trib rapture of the Church (all living and resurrected believers at the time of 1 Th 4:16-17).

There's no proofs of a pre-trib rapture, there's proofs of a rapture.
Not that it's pre trib.
"Tribulation" is not wrath.
Revelation 4:1 was John, not a massive body of believers.
That massive body of believers is in Revelation 7, after the 6th seal.

 

[Douggg]

But this idea, were it to be true, limits the pretribulation rapture to a degree forcing it to be further away from the beginning of the 70th week, completely rules out the "post-trib" rapture that is really more of a post wrath rapture, and allows for mid trib, pre-wrath, or Doug's "any time before the abomination of desolation" rapture.

slight correction - "Doug's "any time before the transgression of desolation" rapture.

 

[Douggg]

The distinction between the transgression of desolation and the abomination of desolation....


The little horn (as the Antichrist) will commit the transgression of desolation act of Daniel 8:13 in 2Thesslaonians2:4, revealing himself to be the man of sin.

The act angers God and in Ezekiel 28:1-10, God has the person assassinated.

The person's soul with then go to hell in Isaiah 14, and mocked there. After a few days, God returns the person's soul back to his body, as part of the mystery of God to bring an end to Satan's evil agenda and to execute judgment on the fallen angels, their powers, and principalities.

Come back to life, the person becomes the beast-king (the mortally wound-but healed head) of Revelation 13. Of whom, the false prophet will have the statue image made of the beast-king and sets it up on the temple mount as the abomination of desolation.

In essence the transgession of desolation and the abomination of desolation are two different things. But the transgression of desolation brings about the abomination of desolation.

the transgression of desolation act >>>>>>>>>months later leads to>>>>>>>>>>> the abomination of desolation statue image.

 

[Douggg]

There are a few very powerful ways to prove the pre-Trib rapture. First, Jesus promised it, though indirectly, in Rev 3:10 (ESV): Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.

Jeffrey, I don't disagree with the possibility of a pre-70th week rapture. But it may not happen until after the 70th week starts - as much of the first half of the 70th week is not tribulation, but the world actually saying peace and safety as it will think it has entered the messianic age.

But it will be a false messianic age, the delusion ending when the Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation act.

The rapture could thus happen any time between right now and then (the transgression of desolation act).

 

[Jamdoc]

Jeffrey, I don't disagree with the possibility of a pre-70th week rapture. But it may not happen until after the 70th week starts - as much of the first half of the 70th week is not tribulation, but the world actually saying peace and safety as it will think it has entered the messianic age.

But it will be a false messianic age, the delusion ending when the Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation act.

The rapture could thus happen any time between right now and then (the transgression of desolation act).

The only way it could happen before the 70th week is years before, which doesn't line up with statements like Luke 17:

26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

Like Jesus is saying that for the wicked, it'll be like normal times every day activities, planning for the future, and then Jesus returns so no it's not Revelation 19 after the global wrath of God (nobody's planning weddings and building things for the future during the wrath of God being poured out), but then JUST AFTER He returns it'll be the wrath of God.
So while that could fit with a pre-trib where this harvest and sabbath year consideration was not an issue, where you'd have the rapture and immediately on the same day, the 70th week begins (since Pretrib consider the entire 70th week the wrath of God)
once you have a consideration of God honoring his own laws regarding timing of harvests and sabbath years, now you have to have a gap, and it no longer fits Luke 17 and kind of makes pretrib tricky.

For pre-wrath it continues to fit. Since the harvest is not during a sabbath year on either end, but sometime during the back half, and you would then have the wrath of God start the same day as the rapture, as the rapture is Jesus coming from heaven, fitting the 6th seal, the Revelation 7 gathering of the elect, and declaration of the wrath of God is come just after the 6th seal, and on the same day the first trumpet is blown, the wrath of God begins.

For traditional post trib you're kind of ruled out by it being a sabbath year, no sowing and reaping, AND you have a lot of uphill battle in explaining the Luke 17 passage of people living normal lives during the trumpets and bowls.

I suppose that's the statement I kind of challenge you with Doug, how does Luke 17 fit into your model Revelation 19 does not fit it people aren't living normal lives during the trumpets and bowls. It'd have to be kind of a false peace situation, but immediately after it happens everyone's lives would have to dramatically go into the wrath of God.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

There's no proofs of a pre-trib rapture, there's proofs of a rapture.
Not that it's pre trib.
"Tribulation" is not wrath.
Revelation 4:1 was John, not a massive body of believers.
That massive body of believers is in Revelation 7, after the 6th seal.

God's wrath needs to be defined to properly understand what is wrath and what isn't wrath. Exceptional guidance is available from Ezekiel 14:21 (NLT): “Now this is what the Sovereign Lord says: How terrible it will be when all four of these dreadful punishments fall upon Jerusalem—war, famine, wild animals, and disease—destroying all her people and animals.

Rev 6:4 (NLT): Then another horse appeared, a red one. Its rider was given a mighty sword and the authority to take peace from the earth. And there was war and slaughter everywhere.

Rev 6:8 (NLT): I looked up and saw a horse whose color was pale green. Its rider was named Death, and his companion was the Grave. These two were given authority over one-fourth of the earth, to kill with the sword and famine and disease and wild animals.

The two verses immediately above are part of the 2nd and 4th seals. Those two seals are chock-full of certified forms of God's wrath.

Pre-wrath rapture believers are mistaken about where wrath begins in the Trib. When you know what God's wrath is, you can then see it in the 2nd and 4th seals. God said so in Ezekiel 14:21.

Apostle John never left the island of Patmos during the whole time he received his vision of Revelation. One very capable angel showed John everything he heard and saw. The proof of this is in John's own words in Rev 22:8 (ESV): I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me,

Therefore, Rev 4:1 is entirely a future event. It is the pre-Trib rapture of the Church, straight to Heaven.

The greatest evidence that believers do not enter the Trib is Rev 6:15-16. In verse 15, "everyone" on Earth is gathered, and they seek to hide. In verse 16, everyone on Earth is reacting in terror to an alleged sighting of Jesus. All are reacting only as unbelievers would do. If believers were present, we would run to Jesus in complete joy to praise and thank Him! This is solid proof that no believers are on Earth as of the 6th seal.

Earlier evidence of no believers entering the Trib is in Rev 6:4. The 2nd seal is about simultaneous wars breaking out all over Earth. Wars, in the Trib, are a certified form of God's wrath per Ezekiel 14:21 (NLT). The behavior of the folks in the 2nd seal includes barbaric killing of each other. God would not require this murderous activity of believers for it would violate the 6th commandment. We believers are not on Earth, as of the 2nd seal.

Rev 9:4 is another such verse. The only folks at that time with the seal of God on their foreheads are the “144k” (Rev 7:3-4). Rev 9:4 is more proof that there are no believers on Earth.

 

[Jamdoc]

God's wrath needs to be defined to properly understand what is wrath and what isn't wrath. Exceptional guidance is available from Ezekiel 14:21 (NLT): “Now this is what the Sovereign Lord says: How terrible it will be when all four of these dreadful punishments fall upon Jerusalem—war, famine, wild animals, and disease—destroying all her people and animals.

Rev 6:4 (NLT): Then another horse appeared, a red one. Its rider was given a mighty sword and the authority to take peace from the earth. And there was war and slaughter everywhere.

Rev 6:8 (NLT): I looked up and saw a horse whose color was pale green. Its rider was named Death, and his companion was the Grave. These two were given authority over one-fourth of the earth, to kill with the sword and famine and disease and wild animals.

The two verses immediately above are part of the 2nd and 4th seals. Those two seals are chock-full of certified forms of God's wrath.

Pre-wrath rapture believers are mistaken about where wrath begins in the Trib. When you know what God's wrath is, you can then see it in the 2nd and 4th seals. God said so in Ezekiel 14:21.

Apostle John never left the island of Patmos during the whole time he received his vision of Revelation. One very capable angel showed John everything he heard and saw. The proof of this is in John's own words in Rev 22:8 (ESV): I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me,

Therefore, Rev 4:1 is entirely a future event. It is the pre-Trib rapture of the Church, straight to Heaven.

The greatest evidence that believers do not enter the Trib is Rev 6:15-16. In verse 15, "everyone" on Earth is gathered, and they seek to hide. In verse 16, everyone on Earth is reacting in terror to an alleged sighting of Jesus. All are reacting only as unbelievers would do. If believers were present, we would run to Jesus in complete joy to praise and thank Him! This is solid proof that no believers are on Earth as of the 6th seal.

Earlier evidence of no believers entering the Trib is in Rev 6:4. The 2nd seal is about simultaneous wars breaking out all over Earth. Wars, in the Trib, are a certified form of God's wrath per Ezekiel 14:21 (NLT). The behavior of the folks in the 2nd seal includes barbaric killing of each other. God would not require this murderous activity of believers for it would violate the 6th commandment. We believers are not on Earth, as of the 2nd seal.

Rev 9:4 is another such verse. The only folks at that time with the seal of God on their foreheads are the “144k” (Rev 7:3-4). Rev 9:4 is more proof that there are no believers on Earth.

TL;DR
the wrath of God begins when the bible says it begins.

Revelation 6

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

now if you're going to be stubborn about this and claim that it was already happening, then go back to the 5th seal

9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

The martyrs are asking how long until God judges the Earth, that is, God has not been judging the Earth up until this time, it's not the wrath of God up to this point. God has allowed wicked men to persecute and kill them sovereignly, but has not dealt out Judgement Himself yet. Note that they are told to wait, not that the judgement was already happening.

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

and if you FURTHER DOUBT and still cling to "the 7 year tribulation (a phrase NEVER used in the bible) is the wrath of God", then go to Revelation 7, which is, right after the 6th seal, but before the 7th.

Revelation 7

9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

and if you want to call this a flash forward and not see that the 6th seal is the End of the tribulation of those days... go back to Matthew 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

What happens at the 6th seal? Those signs, Revelation 7 shows the gathering of the elect.
Great Tribulation is definitively over at this point. The Wrath of God begins next.

Tribulation is not the Wrath of God. The Wrath of God is God's response, God's judgement, God's vengeance FOR Great Tribulation on His people.
The Day of the Lord is rescue for the faithful, vengeance for the martyred, and judgement for the wicked.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

TL;DR
the wrath of God begins when the bible says it begins.

Revelation 6


now if you're going to be stubborn about this and claim that it was already happening, then go back to the 5th seal

The martyrs are asking how long until God judges the Earth, that is, God has not been judging the Earth up until this time, it's not the wrath of God up to this point. God has allowed wicked men to persecute and kill them sovereignly, but has not dealt out Judgement Himself yet. Note that they are told to wait, not that the judgement was already happening.



and if you FURTHER DOUBT and still cling to "the 7 year tribulation (a phrase NEVER used in the bible) is the wrath of God", then go to Revelation 7, which is, right after the 6th seal, but before the 7th.

Revelation 7


and if you want to call this a flash forward and not see that the 6th seal is the End of the tribulation of those days... go back to Matthew 24


What happens at the 6th seal? Those signs, Revelation 7 shows the gathering of the elect.
Great Tribulation is definitively over at this point. The Wrath of God begins next.

Tribulation is not the Wrath of God. The Wrath of God is God's response, God's judgement, God's vengeance FOR Great Tribulation on His people.
The Day of the Lord is rescue for the faithful, vengeance for the martyred, and judgement for the wicked.

Sir, I supplied Ezekiel 14:21 to prove to you what exactly God's wrath is. You won't find any of it in the 6th seal. You haven't yet recognized who's making the claim of "God's wrath" in the 6th seal. It's a lying unbeliever. Everyone there is behaving as only unbelievers behave. They are all in terror of an alleged sighting of Jesus. They are all running in terror to hide from Jesus. Sir, you've got to realize all those folks are unbelievers. What they claimed about God's wrath is false. There isn't any of God's wrath in the 6th seal. You can't prove any is there. It's a lie from an unbeliever. Everyone on Earth is there, and all prove they are unbelievers. Sir, no believers enter the Trib. You can't find one believer in the 6th seal. Again, you can't find any certified wrath in the 6th seal. I proved to you what God's wrath is. It is in the 2nd and 4th seals. It is not in the 6th seal. It's a lie from an unbeliever that God's wrath has come.