Harris campaign now says VP ‘does not support’ electric vehicle mandate in latest flip-flop

[essentialsaltes]

It was known, and is now common knowledge, that vaccination does not stop the spread of COVID.

Known by whom? Certainly not people privy to the evidence.

 

[SimplyMe]

I disagree. People will buy EVs when it is beneficial for them to do so. When range anxiety, charging times, and cold-weather performance (along with any other consumer-driven objection) are no longer concerns

The issue I see with EVs (that most US auto manufacturers are experiencing) is that the early-adopter EV market is pretty saturated. Those who WANT EVs have them. Anytime new tech hits the scene, there are always those early-adopters and those on the bleeding edge that will buy in. But that market has pretty much dried up. Now you've got to convince the masses that EVs are beneficial to them, and that's going to be a hard sell.

The problem with this argument is that sales of EVs continue to increase. Sales of EVs, in the US, in 2024 are well ahead of what were sold per month in 2023. It is true that the rate of increase in the number of EVs sold per year is slowing (instead of 25% more EVs being sold than the previous year it is only 10% more) but that is far different than the market being "dried up."

To wit, an anecdote.

And that is all this is, a rather poor antidote.

Last month, my brother-in-law came to town. He has a Chevy Bolt that he just loves. We live about 90 minutes from Pittsburgh, and he wanted to take his parents (my in-laws) to go sight-seeing, and he wanted to take his car. When he got to Pittsburgh, he realized he needed to recharge. Thus begins my mother-in-law's tale of why she'll never even consider buying an EV. They spent 20 minutes to drive out of their way to the EV charging station that was in the right charging network (because he had credits) and when they got there, the chargers were all occupied except for one.

This is about like a person with a gas vehicle deciding they don't want to pay the high gas prices in the city but instead go to Costco, which is 20 minutes out of the way. Or, they have T-Mobile and get a discount for Shell and the closest Shell station is 20 minutes away. They get there just after Costco closes, or the Shell station has an issue with their Internet connection and so won't give the discount, and they end up having wasted all that time.

They quickly discovered why; that charger didn't work. So then they had to drive another 15 minutes to another location.

So they go to a Sam's Club 15 minutes away and can get gas but have to wait in a 30 minute line before they can fuel. The key point was your BIL wanting to get a discount on his "fuel" and not checking to make sure the place is open (Costco is closed) or whatever -- and yes, there are apps that can make it easy to see if a particular charging station is working (Plugshare being the main one, though likely the app of the company -- which he needed to have to use his credits -- would have reported the station was out of service; more than what the Shell app will do if they have a station offline).

And then sat there for about 40 minutes to charge before they could even begin their day of sight-seeing. For those of you keeping score, that's over an hour of (frustrating) inconvenience that was added to that trip because they took an EV. Had they taken my in-law's ICE car (like they wanted to), they wouldn't have even had to stop for gas.

Yes, he had a car that uses old technology and "fast charges" so slowly that it isn't even manufactured anymore. Current EVs sold would have charged in half that time, or even faster.

"But that's just one anecdote". I can promise you there are many, many more just like it. And until these things are sufficiently addressed, the masses are not going to buy in to EVs. Once upon a time you had to be put on a waiting list to get an EV. Now they're taking up precious space on auto lots and dealers are struggling to sell them.

While you spent the summer vacationing and traveling, many electric vehicles sat idle on dealer lots. At the end of July, it took dealers an average of 81 days — nearly three months — to sell the EVs that arrived in their showrooms, according to days-to-turn data from Edmunds.​

​

That's up 75% from the same month a year ago, and a much longer stay on dealer lots compared to the industry average of 57 days before being sold.​

​

It's a good time to get a deal on an EV as they sit around on dealer lots - Autoblog

The longer EVs sit around on dealer lots, the cheaper they get for customers.

www.autoblog.com

​

Which merely states that many automakers had planned on EV sales continuing to grow at the previous rates, rather than slowing down. The article you linked even stated as much, "While electric vehicle sales overall are still on the rise, the growth rate has slowed considerably, and automakers are still adjusting their production cadences to this change in demand." But just to give some perspective to that 81 day average, the worst selling cars are largely gas cars and, if we remove the luxury cars (such as the Maserati, the Lincoln, the Land Rover, etc); you end up with the Dodge Hornet at 428 days; the Jeep Grand Wagoner at 428 days; the Mini Hardtop at 355 days; the Jeep Grand Wagoneer L at 354 days; etc.

Now, I'll agree that significant work still needs to be done to increase charging stations and that will slow EV growth, until adequate charging growth has occurred. Elon, maybe intentionally, really hurt that by laying off almost all of Tesla's Supercharging team, which seems to have prevented other car manufacturers (other than Ford and Rivian, that were just approved prior to the team being fired) from using Tesla's charging network; as well as significantly crippling the build out of new Supercharger locations.

At the same time, we are off topic as this has nothing to do with any alleged EV "Mandate" that is or isn't supported by the VP.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Employer doesn't want employees spreading disease in the workplace and interfering with the normal course of business.

Then why not a flu vaccine mandate, etc?? In the end, the Feds dropped it and went to working remotely.

 

[probinson]

Known by whom? Certainly not people privy to the evidence.

How many shots have you had? How many times have you had COVID?

Ask these 2 questions to just about anyone and you'll quickly discover that COVID shots don't (and never did) prevent infections regardless of what "people privy to the evidence" (and largely funded by Pfizer) say. And if they do, they do so for all of about 35 minutes after administration. Maybe. Which is why we're now on dose... checks notes... 9, is it, after just 4 years?

 

[probinson]

Then why not a flu vaccine mandate, etc?? In the end, the Feds dropped it and went to working remotely.

Probably because...

Injected influenza vaccines probably have a small protective effect against influenza and ILI (moderate-certainty evidence), as 71 people would need to be vaccinated to avoid one influenza case, and 29 would need to be vaccinated to avoid one case of ILI. Vaccination may have little or no appreciable effect on hospitalisations (low-certainty evidence) or number of working days lost.​

​

Vaccines to prevent influenza in healthy adults | Cochrane

www.cochrane.org

​

 

[Hans Blaster]

Then why not a flu vaccine mandate, etc?? In the end, the Feds dropped it and went to working remotely.

Influenza has low impact on working age adults. Many of them also have children and prefer to get vaccinated anyway so as to not get infected by their children or the other way around. (Many [most?] schools do require employees to get flu vaccines as do old-folks homes, hospitals, etc.)

 

[SimplyMe]

How many shots have you had? How many times have you had COVID?

Ask these 2 questions to just about anyone and you'll quickly discover that COVID shots don't (and never did) prevent infections regardless of what "people privy to the evidence" (and largely funded by Pfizer) say. And if they do, they do so for all of about 35 minutes after administration. Maybe. Which is why we're now on dose... checks notes... 9, is it, after just 4 years?

I've had the vaccine multiple times, maybe seven? I've not had COVID. My husband has probably had a couple more and has also not had COVID.

 

[probinson]

The problem with this argument is that sales of EVs continue to increase. Sales of EVs, in the US, in 2024 are well ahead of what were sold per month in 2023. It is true that the rate of increase in the number of EVs sold per year is slowing (instead of 25% more EVs being sold than the previous year it is only 10% more) but that is far different than the market being "dried up."

The early-adopter market has dried up. Now they have to convince the mainstream. It's a much harder sell. That's why the sales rate is slowing.

And that is all this is, a rather poor antidote.

I've noticed how when I share an anecdote that doesn't fit your narrative, you minimize it. Here you call it "poor" for no other reason than it shows why people are hesitant to buy EVs. Odd.

This is about like a person with a gas vehicle deciding they don't want to pay the high gas prices in the city but instead go to Costco, which is 20 minutes out of the way.

It is absolutely nothing like that. You're literally just making things up. When you say silly things like this, I have to wonder if you've ever put gas in a car at all or if you're blissfully ignorant of the fact that gas stations are ubiquitous, on nearly every corner of every major street in even the smallest of towns. Seriously. Can you cite one real-life instance where someone chose to drive 20 minutes out of their way just to get gas at a Costco? I sure can't.

In the anecdote I shared (which actually happened just a few weeks ago, by the way), my BIL could charge for free (if he found a functional charger on his network) or he could pay $0.40-$0.50/kWh. There is nothing analogous with that about a gas vehicle. With a 65kWh battery, he was likely looking at a difference of $20-$30. He was wiling to be inconvenienced to save that money.

OTOH, I don't care how many loyalty points you have with Costco. Even if you save $0.20/gallon (which is being VERY generous), at best you're going to save $2.80 if you fill up a 14-gallon tank. Most logical, rational people aren't going to drive 20 minutes out of their way and wait 30 minutes once they get there to "save" less than three bucks.

Or, they have T-Mobile and get a discount for Shell and the closest Shell station is 20 minutes away. They get there just after Costco closes, or the Shell station has an issue with their Internet connection and so won't give the discount, and they end up having wasted all that time.

Do these things actually happen to people? I mean, you make it sound like some arduous process to fill a car with gas. Seriously, have you ever driven a gas vehicle and filled it with fuel? The entire process from start to finish takes no more than 5 minutes. It's exceedingly rare, even in Pittsburgh on a busy Friday night, to have to wait for a pump to free up to get gas. And while some people might choose to wait in line to save a buck or two because they have loyalty points or a club membership, that's hardly the same thing as finding a "free" charger, which is nowhere near as readily available as a gas pump.

So they go to a Sam's Club 15 minutes away and can get gas but have to wait in a 30 minute line before they can fuel.

Again, where does this actually happen? I've been to a lot of Sam's Clubs where I've gotten gas many times, and I have never waited any more than 5 minutes for a free pump. Usually I don't have to wait at all.

The key point was your BIL wanting to get a discount on his "fuel" and not checking to make sure the place is open (Costco is closed) or whatever -- and yes, there are apps that can make it easy to see if a particular charging station is working (Plugshare being the main one, though likely the app of the company -- which he needed to have to use his credits -- would have reported the station was out of service; more than what the Shell app will do if they have a station offline).

Right. Because the apps are always 100% accurate and up-to-date. Sure they are.

Yes, he had a car that uses old technology and "fast charges" so slowly that it isn't even manufactured anymore. Current EVs sold would have charged in half that time, or even faster.

"Current" EVs? His car is less than 2 years old. He was on a waiting list to get that car for over a year. C'mon. Do you expect everyone to buy a new EV every other year to keep up with technological advances so they can have what you deem a "current" EV? I think most objective people would call a 2022 vehicle a "current" vehicle.

Which merely states that many automakers had planned on EV sales continuing to grow at the previous rates, rather than slowing down. The article you linked even stated as much, "While electric vehicle sales overall are still on the rise, the growth rate has slowed considerably, and automakers are still adjusting their production cadences to this change in demand." But just to give some perspective to that 81 day average, the worst selling cars are largely gas cars and, if we remove the luxury cars (such as the Maserati, the Lincoln, the Land Rover, etc); you end up with the Dodge Hornet at 428 days; the Jeep Grand Wagoner at 428 days; the Mini Hardtop at 355 days; the Jeep Grand Wagoneer L at 354 days; etc.

Nope. Sorry. If we're going to use averages, you don't get to arbitrarily pull out the data points that don't fit your narrative.

Also, you know there are just more gas cars than EVs, right? So naturally it would follow that any worst-selling cars list would contain more gas vehicles than EVs, because there are more of them to begin with. ALWAYS check your denominator (if you want to avoid being lied to with data).

Now, I'll agree that significant work still needs to be done to increase charging stations and that will slow EV growth, until adequate charging growth has occurred. Elon, maybe intentionally, really hurt that by laying off almost all of Tesla's Supercharging team, which seems to have prevented other car manufacturers (other than Ford and Rivian, that were just approved prior to the team being fired) from using Tesla's charging network; as well as significantly crippling the build out of new Supercharger locations.

But you just told me a few months ago that all my problems for taking a long trip in an EV from PA to FL would be solved by Tesla opening up their network. Now that's not going to happen. It sounds like the EV market in general is incredibly volatile and unpredictable, unlike the much more established ICE market, which is another reason people are hesitant to make the switch.

Will batteries even win out in the long run for emission-free vehicles, or will something better come along?

At the same time, we are off topic as this has nothing to do with any alleged EV "Mandate" that is or isn't supported by the VP.

It's not "alleged". It's very real. You can read all about the concern US dealerships have about it here. The current Biden administration has "pumped the brakes", but only temporarily. And yes, the dealerships are referring to this as a "mandate" because that's exactly what it is.

It's also not off-topic. It's discussing the very real concerns people have with such a "mandate".

 

[probinson]

I've had the vaccine multiple times, maybe seven? I've not had COVID. My husband has probably had a couple more and has also not had COVID.

That's remarkable. I don't know anyone in my real life that hasn't had COVID regardless of their vaccination status.

I've had COVID one time. In September 2021, I was sick for about a week and a half. That's the only confirmed case of COVID I've had. I've had miscellaneous colds and sniffles and sore throats (no more or less than before the pandemic) which may or may not have been COVID, but I don't run around testing for every sniffle like some people do, so it's hard for me to say.

 

[probinson]

(Many [most?] schools do require employees to get flu vaccines

I suppose, if you think 4 states and NYC classifies as "most" (or even "many").

Source: State Vaccine-Specific Requirements

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Influenza has low impact on working age adults. Many of them also have children and prefer to get vaccinated anyway so as to not get infected by their children or the other way around. (Many [most?] schools do require employees to get flu vaccines as do old-folks homes, hospitals, etc.)

What is the difference?

 

[Ana the Ist]

So which Mr. Trump do you recommend

So's Law....

It's not as widespread as poe's law or godwin's law.

It basically states: If someone quotes another poster and then paraphrases up their point starting with the word "so", he almost certainly creates a strawman in the process.

I'd argue that a better explanation of So's Law would be...

Whenever someone responds to your post with that begins with the word "So" and ends in a question mark....the words between have nothing to do with your post.

 

[Nithavela]

So's Law....



I'd argue that a better explanation of So's Law would be...

Whenever someone responds to your post with that begins with the word "So" and ends in a question mark....the words between have nothing to do with your post.

Really? You quote an 8 year old post from me just to dunk on it?

 

[Ana the Ist]

Really? You quote an 8 year old post from me just to dunk on it?

I'm sorry?

I didn't remember who came up with So's Law and I tried to find the best explanation I could.

You were the winner. Best explanation I could find.

If you're so insulted by my personal modification I'll remove it....just say so.

 

[Nithavela]

I'm sorry?

I didn't remember who came up with So's Law[...]

USincognito

 

[christian-surfer]

Is this article inaccurate? It seems like it fits with many other things I have heard

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/biden-pledges-end-gas-powered-federal-vehicle-purchases-by-2035-2021-12-08/

I don’t trust people like Kamala who seem to just go along with whatever she is told to say. It was Obama who spoke out against George W Bush’s war in the Middle East but when Obama was elected, nothing changed. I think trump has had a better record of trying to do what he says even if he isn’t a smooth talking lawyer type from Harvard

 

[Hans Blaster]

What is the difference?

Of what?

 

[KCfromNC]

How many shots have you had? How many times have you had COVID?

Ask these 2 questions to just about anyone and you'll quickly discover that COVID shots don't (and never did) prevent infections regardless of what "people privy to the evidence" (and largely funded by Pfizer) say.

Yeah, who needs actual scientific studies when we can just collect anecdotes from random people?

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Of what?

Covid vaccine and flu vaccine...

 

[rjs330]

"EVS or otherwise emissions-free by 2040"
- note "otherwise emissions-free" Not EV only

The article is written by Nick Pope who is not unbiased.

Here is a summary of the bill written by the Congressional Research Service.

https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/house-bill/2764

Shown Here:​

Introduced in House (05/15/2019)​

Zero-Emission Vehicles Act of 2019​

​

This bill requires the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) to establish a zero-emission passenger vehicle standard. Specifically, the bill sets a schedule for increasing the percentage of zero-emission vehicles a vehicle manufacturer delivers for sale, culminating in a requirement to sell only zero-emission vehicles from 2040 on. The bill also requires the EPA to establish a zero-emission vehicle credit program that approves one zero-emission vehicle credit for each zero-emission vehicle delivered for sale in the United States and partial credits for qualified electric vehicles based on the estimated proportion of the mileage driven on the battery.​

​

Manufacturers that fail to meet the minimum required percentage of zero-emission vehicle sales must submit to the EPA a quantity of zero-emission vehicle credits sufficient to offset the excess.​

​

Credits may also be sold, transferred, exchanged, or retired in certain circumstances.​

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The bill imposes civil penalties for the failure to comply with zero-emission vehicle credit standards, with collected penalties being deposited into the Highway Trust Fund. After 2040, the EPA may issue injunctions on the manufacture of passenger vehicles other than zero-emission vehicles.​

The bill is about the EPA setting standards. Not a mandate.

Regardless, most intelligent folks evolve or learn and adjust their view of what is possible or practical to do.

Honestly, this is making a mountain out of a molehill.

Setting those standards is the same thing as a mandate. This is how government forces you to do what they want. It's the same thing.

Instead of coming out with a law that says you must have an EV they create standards of 0 emissions. Making it so you have to have an EV. Injunctions against manufacturers, civil penalties etc is all the same exact thing as forcing people into an EV. It's a mandate. Instead of forcing tge consumer to buy one they force the manufacturers to make only make them so the customers don't really have a choice but to buy them.

"Welcome to our dealership"
"I would like to buy a cat"
"Great we have a lot full of EVs"
"i want a gas car"
"We don't have any"
"Why not"
"Government regulations forced us to go 0 emissions. The only way to do that is to have only EVs."
"But i was told i was not mandated to have to buy one"
"You aren't"
"Well i want a gas car"
"We dont have any to buy no one does"
The i have choice but to buy one?
Yup, but it's not a mandate. You just don't have any choice because the government made so we can't make any gas cars.

Don't urinate on our heads and tell us it's raining.