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Theodicy, God creating Lucifer and allowing evil despite loving us? Any spiritual gift on this matter?

GoldenKingGaze

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I am thinking of theodicies, and why God created Lucifer knowing he would become so evil and curse so many. God loves us, and I tried describing that to a friend, but my explanation did not cut it with him. He is a free thinker, seems to have settled for pantheism, the universe is his god. Does anyone have a gift or a dream on this matter?
 

CoreyD

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I am thinking of theodicies, and why God created Lucifer knowing he would become so evil and curse so many. God loves us, and I tried describing that to a friend, but my explanation did not cut it with him. He is a free thinker, seems to have settled for pantheism, the universe is his god. Does anyone have a gift or a dream on this matter?
Yes. The spirit reveals from scripture, that God did not create Lucifer... Nor did God create Lucifer, knowing he would become so evil and curse so many.

I believe you are referring to the Devil, but the Devil is not Lucifer in the Bible. Perhaps in later teachings.
The words at Isaiah 14:9-20 do not apply to any spirit creature, but to the king of Babylon - a man.

However, rather than dwell on that, I will focus on your particular concern.
God has the ability to know everything, yet, the Bible tells us that God does not seek to know everything.
One reason for this, is that God allows creatures freedom of choice, and allows them to exercise that.

God's power, and justice, allows God to be selective in what he chooses to foreknow.
God is in control of that ability, and he is righteous, and so always acts morally right, allowing his subjects the freedom to exercise their moral right.
Hence, God allows intelligent creatures to choose what they will do, of their own free will.

A few examples showing where God has not exercised foreknowledge, is Genesis 18:20, 21; Genesis 22:11, 12
So, it would not be in keeping with scripture, to assume that God foreknew that the angel that sinned, would do so, and that the human couple, would likewise rebel.

God created and left the choice to his creation, to obey him, or not to.
It is however, God's desire that intelligent creatures make the right choice. Deuteronomy 30:19, 20

Why though, after Adam and Eve sinned, did God allow offspring to be born to them, knowing that they would suffer the consequences of disobedience? Romans 5:12
For a number of reasons.
  • God keeps his promises, and does not go back on his word. Isaiah 55:10, 11 It is God's purpose to have a human family serving him and finding joy in life, and that is what will be, because no one can thwart God's purpose. Isaiah 14:27
  • A challenge to God's sovereignty was made in the garden, and this had to be met, or settled, once and for all. Time was required to settle this issue. Please see this post, and subsequent posts, on this thread.
  • Time was also needed to undo the damage done by the rebels. Genesis 3:15; Genesis 22:18; Genesis 49:10
  • Time was needed too, for man to have a fair chance at life - everlasting life. 2 Peter 3:9
Therefore, "the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will, but because of the One who subjected it, in hope" Romans 8:20
God allowed suffering, on the basis of hope.

What answer did you give, may I ask?
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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Yes. The spirit reveals from scripture, that God did not create Lucifer... Nor did God create Lucifer, knowing he would become so evil and curse so many.

I believe you are referring to the Devil, but the Devil is not Lucifer in the Bible. Perhaps in later teachings.
The words at Isaiah 14:9-20 do not apply to any spirit creature, but to the king of Babylon - a man.

However, rather than dwell on that, I will focus on your particular concern.
God has the ability to know everything, yet, the Bible tells us that God does not seek to know everything.
One reason for this, is that God allows creatures freedom of choice, and allows them to exercise that.

God's power, and justice, allows God to be selective in what he chooses to foreknow.
God is in control of that ability, and he is righteous, and so always acts morally right, allowing his subjects the freedom to exercise their moral right.
Hence, God allows intelligent creatures to choose what they will do, of their own free will.

A few examples showing where God has not exercised foreknowledge, is Genesis 18:20, 21; Genesis 22:11, 12
So, it would not be in keeping with scripture, to assume that God foreknew that the angel that sinned, would do so, and that the human couple, would likewise rebel.

God created and left the choice to his creation, to obey him, or not to.
It is however, God's desire that intelligent creatures make the right choice. Deuteronomy 30:19, 20

Why though, after Adam and Eve sinned, did God allow offspring to be born to them, knowing that they would suffer the consequences of disobedience? Romans 5:12
For a number of reasons.
  • God keeps his promises, and does not go back on his word. Isaiah 55:10, 11 It is God's purpose to have a human family serving him and finding joy in life, and that is what will be, because no one can thwart God's purpose. Isaiah 14:27
  • A challenge to God's sovereignty was made in the garden, and this had to be met, or settled, once and for all. Time was required to settle this issue. Please see this post, and subsequent posts, on this thread.
  • Time was also needed to undo the damage done by the rebels. Genesis 3:15; Genesis 22:18; Genesis 49:10
  • Time was needed too, for man to have a fair chance at life - everlasting life. 2 Peter 3:9
Therefore, "the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will, but because of the One who subjected it, in hope" Romans 8:20
God allowed suffering, on the basis of hope.

What answer did you give, may I ask?
God in three persons being all good, all wise, all knowledgeable, and possessing perfect understanding. And this includes empathy. God who is all powerful, designer, creator and unchanging even under duress. God of infinite resources of Spirit and of infinite transcending and infilling presence, a relational being, three persons with faces, they thought and willed to have company. They designed the array of angels, sons and daughters.



In order to have conscious companions with genuine love, God had to create beings with free will, like Himself.



God did not intend on evil but foreknew it would come about in free will given time. They knew all the options for the unfolding of events, to an infinite degree. They knew all the potential angelic names, a near infinite array. There may have been angelic names and angelic roles that were left uncreated, and others that were given a higher priority and power, and angels with a healing prerogative needed to come into being.



It was essential for there to be among angels Heylel, a strong, awe inspired, deep loving and extremely wise worship leader, a musician, full of God’s Spirit. The role could not be left out. His interests turned into evil and he became Satan. God created the array as is, towards minimising evil and for maximum benevolence, grace, healing and reward.



Despite knowing love perfectly, Heylel’s deceit, pride, vanity and avarice with jealousy, in a vast knowledge of God’s beauty, wisdom, power, majesty to the far reaches, he chose to steal. And he went far beyond theft, gathering in a vast team. From his rebellion comes evil and suffering. At first for God and then probably also for the remaining holy angels.



Heylel invented murder and death. The rebellion contained the roots of thievery, fornication and adultery, speaking figuratively, with Heylel taking the angel’s worship for himself, stolen intimacy and glory and in addition, an attempt to stop and dismember God’s persons from their glory and power. That would have meant the befickling, deception of and enslaving and death of God. A fate like that of the weak king Theoden in LOTR. I estimate beginning by trying to make God, who is Truth lie, break His word, using angelic wit and force. If possible by the work of all the angels in unison.



Under God’s command the rebellion was crushed, the holy angels held the fallen angels as God judged them and could find no place for their way of jealousy, theft and murder in Heaven. The fallen angels went through poverty. To make the most of the new, evil natured angels, they were put in a new place, we call Hell, in which they were tormented by fire, to bring out the best in them.



Jealous of God’s glory, the angels of death hate our future in Heaven with God and seek to stop us with accusation of malevolence towards others and temptation, deception, disease, threat with no alternative using fear of death, grumbling… so that we share a place with them in damnation, the fiery end. From this jealous hate applied to Eve our ancestor, sin and curse came into our race. The result on Earth being universal spiritual blindness, Earth dominion being taken from us then to be held by Satan. We have since been under slavery to sin, bad will, life blocking curses and times of much suffering. Also death and later Hell below, the exacting of jealousy.



God set our race in the Garden of Eden, Eden means pleasure. If Adam with his wife would have always obeyed the one command, not to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, we today would have inherited a perfect just nature in our flesh and blood, like the angels of light.



Suffering would be kept at bay. The whole Earth would be a paradise. No one would die.



But the couple needed to use limited resources to ingrain a just nature in response to temptation. They could have overcome, but did not. They could have been given a visit from a wise holy angel to help them, but they did not ask and so they did not have it. Or all of us would always need those same inputs from generation to generation at life’s start.



The holy angels that stood firm in yes to God and no to Heylel overcame and it is part of their perfect nature. Simultaneously they are completely free, they cannot be tempted, and never get sick or die.



God by making the full componency of Heylel, Satan, He created a greater holiness based on the immense wisdom and then after, fallen wisdom of Satan, with his far reaches of evil thought, intent, action and taking of opportunities. Holy angels already obtained this. For us, a holiness through Christ and His powerful blood, and in the power that worked the resurrection, surpassing Satan’s full wisdom and force, enables vast powers of thought and perceiving tempting suggestion without a single missed step or fumble into sin.



This overcoming nature and power was created and is kept in Jesus. His blood is a presence and power that gives us His nature when applied together with the power of the resurrection, that was made real with the Father of Jesus using Christ’s blood that great Sunday morning.



Satan’s evil is complete and can never to be added to, his defeat is complete, and this power over evil character and sin, is in the flesh and blood of Christ. We have a perfect ever enduring good character and sinlessness in the bread of life and sacred blood of Jesus and His loving holiness that comes from accepting these blessings.



The Son, the father of eternity, knew the array of angels would contain one He would later combat on the cross and immediately after, suffering a great deal, all the while scorning the shame. From the very beginning, He did not want to have to perform such a task. Nor did the Father or the Spirit. They did not want their Heylel to grow so extremely proud or for Adam to fall into sin come to hardship, shame, to toil and lose Abel… They did not plan on creating Hell for pleasure or for company.



God’s infinite sight and strategy however, shows He can use what He did not choose and is supreme and in control even in the chaos. They knew all Heylel’s future from before he came to exist. God set limits.



They chose an array of angels with a limit on losses to rebellion. The rebellion of the one third in it’s fullness led to a conclusive victory over them and their sin nature and power.



Satan and his team are in vast debt to God for their sin works. They can never repay. No sacrifice was made for them to pay for them, most likely it is known that they would never repent and take it anyway. But we have Christ’s sacrifice. It is complete grace to us. By it we can pass from judgement.



The situations people are born in can make finding justice and mercy, truth and grace near impossible, but God is most interested. Bringing these lost souls to grace is the work of evangelists with the holy angels. Those that were in Hell at the time Christ died received a new grace and new life.



God in the future will judge all souls. He wants us to hear of mercy and grace and repent, everyone from slanderers to terrorists. Some people are in Hell because they never heard the truth. God still wants them, and all the rest of us.



Events take place that make us suffer. We can be deceived, slandered and it can go so far as being terrorised by the violent. And as Jesus said, “they do not know what they are doing.” There is grace for them. And there are graces for thieves, rapists and also nice people who have idols.



One brave missionary went into rebel soldier heartlands to preach to them. God’s grace was present, and it reached their hearts, they dropped their weapons knelt down and repented. It is when everyone has an opportunity to repent that Christ Jesus returns bringing His universal ruling which ends all injustice and suffering on Earth.



People who have experienced suffering have a greater appreciation of the joys of paradise and Heaven. Apart from that, evil and suffering can be completely useless and vile, even causing rebellion and the loss of people from eternal life. It is like a severe viral illness, it may not serve any purpose at all. Also the pleasures of sin like adultery, after the pleasures it can be totally useless and vile, a source of sorrow and remorse. Or bait that leads to the loss of good friends and possibly of one’s own life.



Sickness causes suffering, as do unclean intents, like murder, adultery, fornication, robbery and false witness. Fear torments people. These things were devised towards I AM, they are now applied to and through us, we the world of souls. Satan’s unrelenting pride and jealousy drives continuing evil and suffering. As he deceives people, he causes sin, injustices great and small that severely hurt people. Sometimes plans and actions. Sometimes people stand aside and do nothing about evils. Take Satan away and there is calm and order.



The name of Jesus and the power of His precious blood are much stronger than Satan in our midst. More than conquering power. Death itself will come to a conclusion because of the Christ’s resurrection.



From God in response to deliberate adversity, can come revenge on the sinners and their children, and regarding God’s own, some hardships, that after a time render justification and wholeness, a refilling of well being.



God leaves a time before answered prayer to draw out and enlarge faith and confidence in Him and to cause patience with faith. This may involve what seems like a long time of suffering. It tests motives and refines them to integrity, for such as why and when we show kindness. So we are kind whether it hurts or enriches our happiness. God can use evil and suffering to grow patient unselfishness and patient kindness.



An insight into the Son in the beginning, from paragraphs one two and three.

Consider the wonderful counsellor, and prince of peace, God as Father of time and eternity, above time, seeing perfectly and completely into whatever has been in the past, with perfect depth and detail and also into the present and into all the future, His own actions, the cosmic events, the creatures’ thoughts, feelings, actions and interactions, and His interventions with the complex results… all births, with perfect empathy… Possessing infinite insight, foresight and hindsight with infinite love and empathy. Allowing constant free will, while never causing sin.



It was like this with Him in the beginning, as He saw us and His death and resurrection, and the reward of us with Him in paradise that would follow. Seeing it from above and afar, before He founded the Earth as He committed to outworking the cross event. I believe this grand vision and compassion was a gift to Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane, as His passion was just about to need His best and bravest action. In prayer He saw the Father and was under the power ministry of His guardian angel. He saw, knew and loved each one of us with the grand insight. By such strong love and seeing the reward ahead, He was readied.



Despite free will, everything was planned out and what was intended for our harm He unwinds, turns around and uses for the good of those once hurt, for those who love and or reverence Him and to give people a chance! God has the wisdom to heal us, He overcame sickness, sin and death by the cross and resurrection. He is glorious in Heaven, and he can heal, and desires to heal all hurts. This brings Him much glory.



A look at some relevant words.

Justice
, is God’s nature, in it is a sense of debt to each other. Not to step on someone else, not to deceive and rob them, to give them what is theirs. To care for their interests within reason. To have regard for their lives. It keeps count of debts, and requires repayment. It involves weighing up worth and responsibility. With God this is not superficial regard, but goes very far.



Mercy. Being shown mercy means we do not have to pay indebtedness but it is put aside, and with God, mercy lasts forever. It is not automatic, we need to ask for mercy. Although there is sovereign mercy from Jesus the Messiah. Mercy can be shown because of a lack of knowledge, meaning degrees of not knowing that we are doing something wrong, ranging to knowing well.



Grace. There are small and great things we can have, a lot of knowledge, wisdom, strength, love, fortune, pedigree, inheritance, beautiful land, air, a spouse, children, honour, the Tree of Life, eternal youth and many other things on Earth and in Heaven. We normally do not deserve them. Being given good things we didn’t earn and don’t deserve is grace.



Reverence. This is awe like a fearless, yet cautious view of a lightening storm. Appreciation of the size and impressive nature of the spectacle. Awesome huge dark clouds high up, bolts of lightening, thunder, showers. It is a kind of fear nevertheless. It can be emotional. It is again in regards to something great. Like vast mountain ranges, huge granite mountains, snow peaks, with pristinity. Still more, of the awesome Sun, considering it’s size, mass, gravity, light, and age… moving onto the galaxy, and even the holy angels, like Gabriel and Michael… and of course God in His glory on His throne, sitting at thirty metres high. Shining brighter than the Sun times many thousands, emitting bolts of lightening, creating, ordering… Reverence is to be in awe, and to respect the responsibility since power can also hurt.



Love. There is the God kind of love called agape. Unconditional love, not only for those who give what they owe. It is benevolent, healing, all self giving. Giving mercy and grace to the debtors. It is unselfish, faithful. Love shows kindness, with good manners, it can forgive debts and not remember the wrongs and tends not to see faults in the beloved. Although with God, He sees far and deeply in, but then is looking for an opportunity to heal the persons.



Christ. Means anointed one, officiated by a portion of God’s presence and power being rubbed into Him like oil. Running down the head, the beard, the chest… It means Messiah. One empowered to function in a service role... Jesus is, the, Christ, the one who would bring just rule and restore Israel according to prophecy.



Empathy is to be able to feel and understand how another person feels, and thinks. To understand their pain and joy, their hopes, or even despair. If followed with care it is compassion.



Heylel. Means the shining one, referring to the anointed cherub, the archangel that led worship who became vain and sought equality with God independently. Also called Morning Star, Lucifer and Satan.



Sin. It literally means to miss the target, by falling short. It means falling short of full love, not going as far as is needed. It is injustice, stealing another person’s possession. Maybe something they need. Stealing their praise. Imperfect balances in regards to knowing and responsibility, and worth regarding debts… Not acting justly or showing no mercy can be sin.
 
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CoreyD

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God in three persons being all good, all wise, all knowledgeable, and possessing perfect understanding. And this includes empathy. God who is all powerful, designer, creator and unchanging even under duress. God of infinite resources of Spirit and of infinite transcending and infilling presence, a relational being, three persons with faces, they thought and willed to have company. They designed the array of angels, sons and daughters.
In order to have conscious companions with genuine love, God had to create beings with free will, like Himself.
You said God had to, but did God have to do anything... especially if he has free will?

God did not intend on evil but foreknew it would come about in free will given time. They knew all the options for the unfolding of events, to an infinite degree. They knew all the potential angelic names, a near infinite array. There may have been angelic names and angelic roles that were left uncreated, and others that were given a higher priority and power, and angels with a healing prerogative needed to come into being.
If God has free will, can he excercise it, in what he knows and does not know?
Is God in control of what he will or will not do?

It was essential for there to be among angels Heylel, a strong, awe inspired, deep loving and extremely wise worship leader, a musician, full of God’s Spirit. The role could not be left out. His interests turned into evil and he became Satan. God created the array as is, towards minimising evil and for maximum benevolence, grace, healing and reward.
Why do you believe this?
Is there a scripture that says this?
The one that was in the beginning with God... Is that one not a strong, awe inspired, deep loving and extremely wise leader, full of God’s Spirit?
Why a musician though?

Where in the Bible do you find support for this idea?

Despite knowing love perfectly, Heylel’s deceit, pride, vanity and avarice with jealousy, in a vast knowledge of God’s beauty, wisdom, power, majesty to the far reaches, he chose to steal. And he went far beyond theft, gathering in a vast team. From his rebellion comes evil and suffering. At first for God and then probably also for the remaining holy angels.
This sounds like the angel that rebelled - the one called Devil and Satan.

Heylel invented murder and death. The rebellion contained the roots of thievery, fornication and adultery, speaking figuratively, with Heylel taking the angel’s worship for himself, stolen intimacy and glory and in addition, an attempt to stop and dismember God’s persons from their glory and power. That would have meant the befickling, deception of and enslaving and death of God. A fate like that of the weak king Theoden in LOTR. I estimate beginning by trying to make God, who is Truth lie, break His word, using angelic wit and force. If possible by the work of all the angels in unison.
Under God’s command the rebellion was crushed, the holy angels held the fallen angels as God judged them and could find no place for their way of jealousy, theft and murder in Heaven. The fallen angels went through poverty. To make the most of the new, evil natured angels, they were put in a new place, we call Hell, in which they were tormented by fire, to bring out the best in them.
I can tell from this, you are not using the Bible as your source.
What book are you referring.

Jealous of God’s glory, the angels of death hate our future in Heaven with God and seek to stop us with accusation of malevolence towards others and temptation, deception, disease, threat with no alternative using fear of death, grumbling… so that we share a place with them in damnation, the fiery end. From this jealous hate applied to Eve our ancestor, sin and curse came into our race. The result on Earth being universal spiritual blindness, Earth dominion being taken from us then to be held by Satan. We have since been under slavery to sin, bad will, life blocking curses and times of much suffering. Also death and later Hell below, the exacting of jealousy.
God set our race in the Garden of Eden, Eden means pleasure. If Adam with his wife would have always obeyed the one command, not to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, we today would have inherited a perfect just nature in our flesh and blood, like the angels of light.



Suffering would be kept at bay. The whole Earth would be a paradise. No one would die.
I agree with this.
How wonderful that would have been... No one would get sick; grow old; or die.
Which means, no doctors, hospitals, morgues, undertakers... No dentists. :grin: ...and no synthetic drugs that kill us. :tonguewink:

But the couple needed to use limited resources to ingrain a just nature in response to temptation. They could have overcome, but did not. They could have been given a visit from a wise holy angel to help them, but they did not ask and so they did not have it. Or all of us would always need those same inputs from generation to generation at life’s start.



The holy angels that stood firm in yes to God and no to Heylel overcame and it is part of their perfect nature. Simultaneously they are completely free, they cannot be tempted, and never get sick or die.
This is true.
You made an excellent point here - the angels are not like fleshly beings.
Satan could only try to cause Jesus to sin against God, when Jesus was in the flesh.

God by making the full componency of Heylel, Satan, He created a greater holiness based on the immense wisdom and then after, fallen wisdom of Satan, with his far reaches of evil thought, intent, action and taking of opportunities. Holy angels already obtained this. For us, a holiness through Christ and His powerful blood, and in the power that worked the resurrection, surpassing Satan’s full wisdom and force, enables vast powers of thought and perceiving tempting suggestion without a single missed step or fumble into sin.
This overcoming nature and power was created and is kept in Jesus. His blood is a presence and power that gives us His nature when applied together with the power of the resurrection, that was made real with the Father of Jesus using Christ’s blood that great Sunday morning.
Satan’s evil is complete and can never to be added to, his defeat is complete, and this power over evil character and sin, is in the flesh and blood of Christ. We have a perfect ever enduring good character and sinlessness in the bread of life and sacred blood of Jesus and His loving holiness that comes from accepting these blessings.
The Son, the father of eternity, knew the array of angels would contain one He would later combat on the cross and immediately after, suffering a great deal, all the while scorning the shame. From the very beginning, He did not want to have to perform such a task. Nor did the Father or the Spirit. They did not want their Heylel to grow so extremely proud or for Adam to fall into sin come to hardship, shame, to toil and lose Abel… They did not plan on creating Hell for pleasure or for company.
I understand you are saying this - not from scripture, but your own thinking.
Isn't that dangerous, and might that not put you odds with the father, by stating thing you cannot be sure of, since they are not written down for us?

You are saying that before God made a family in heaven, he knew that there would be a rebellious son.
Why do you think God did not deal with any rebellious "child" in his heavenly realm, before bringing forth earthly children... especially knowing that bad apples tend to corrupt good ones?

God’s infinite sight and strategy however, shows He can use what He did not choose and is supreme and in control even in the chaos. They knew all Heylel’s future from before he came to exist. God set limits.
They chose an array of angels with a limit on losses to rebellion. The rebellion of the one third in it’s fullness led to a conclusive victory over them and their sin nature and power.

Satan and his team are in vast debt to God for their sin works. They can never repay. No sacrifice was made for them to pay for them, most likely it is known that they would never repent and take it anyway. But we have Christ’s sacrifice. It is complete grace to us. By it we can pass from judgement.
I would agree.

The situations people are born in can make finding justice and mercy, truth and grace near impossible, but God is most interested. Bringing these lost souls to grace is the work of evangelists with the holy angels. Those that were in Hell at the time Christ died received a new grace and new life.

God in the future will judge all souls. He wants us to hear of mercy and grace and repent, everyone from slanderers to terrorists. Some people are in Hell because they never heard the truth. God still wants them, and all the rest of us.
Some people are in Hell?
Can you meet me in this thread, and answer the question there. Thanks.

Events take place that make us suffer. We can be deceived, slandered and it can go so far as being terrorised by the violent. And as Jesus said, “they do not know what they are doing.” There is grace for them. And there are graces for thieves, rapists and also nice people who have idols.
It's a sad state, indeed.
This world is a dangerous place for everyone, and children do not escape. :frowning:

One brave missionary went into rebel soldier heartlands to preach to them. God’s grace was present, and it reached their hearts, they dropped their weapons knelt down and repented. It is when everyone has an opportunity to repent that Christ Jesus returns bringing His universal ruling which ends all injustice and suffering on Earth.
People who have experienced suffering have a greater appreciation of the joys of paradise and Heaven. Apart from that, evil and suffering can be completely useless and vile, even causing rebellion and the loss of people from eternal life. It is like a severe viral illness, it may not serve any purpose at all. Also the pleasures of sin like adultery, after the pleasures it can be totally useless and vile, a source of sorrow and remorse. Or bait that leads to the loss of good friends and possibly of one’s own life.
Sickness causes suffering, as do unclean intents, like murder, adultery, fornication, robbery and false witness. Fear torments people. These things were devised towards I AM, they are now applied to and through us, we the world of souls. Satan’s unrelenting pride and jealousy drives continuing evil and suffering. As he deceives people, he causes sin, injustices great and small that severely hurt people. Sometimes plans and actions. Sometimes people stand aside and do nothing about evils. Take Satan away and there is calm and order.
The name of Jesus and the power of His precious blood are much stronger than Satan in our midst. More than conquering power. Death itself will come to a conclusion because of the Christ’s resurrection.
From God in response to deliberate adversity, can come revenge on the sinners and their children, and regarding God’s own, some hardships, that after a time render justification and wholeness, a refilling of well being.
God leaves a time before answered prayer to draw out and enlarge faith and confidence in Him and to cause patience with faith. This may involve what seems like a long time of suffering. It tests motives and refines them to integrity, for such as why and when we show kindness. So we are kind whether it hurts or enriches our happiness. God can use evil and suffering to grow patient unselfishness and patient kindness.
An insight into the Son in the beginning, from paragraphs one two and three.

Consider the wonderful counsellor, and prince of peace, God as Father of time and eternity, above time, seeing perfectly and completely into whatever has been in the past, with perfect depth and detail and also into the present and into all the future, His own actions, the cosmic events, the creatures’ thoughts, feelings, actions and interactions, and His interventions with the complex results… all births, with perfect empathy… Possessing infinite insight, foresight and hindsight with infinite love and empathy. Allowing constant free will, while never causing sin.



It was like this with Him in the beginning, as He saw us and His death and resurrection, and the reward of us with Him in paradise that would follow. Seeing it from above and afar, before He founded the Earth as He committed to outworking the cross event. I believe this grand vision and compassion was a gift to Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane, as His passion was just about to need His best and bravest action. In prayer He saw the Father and was under the power ministry of His guardian angel. He saw, knew and loved each one of us with the grand insight. By such strong love and seeing the reward ahead, He was readied.



Despite free will, everything was planned out and what was intended for our harm He unwinds, turns around and uses for the good of those once hurt, for those who love and or reverence Him and to give people a chance! God has the wisdom to heal us, He overcame sickness, sin and death by the cross and resurrection. He is glorious in Heaven, and he can heal, and desires to heal all hurts. This brings Him much glory.



A look at some relevant words.

...
I'm glad I took the time to read your post.
It was long, but I see you put a lot of thought into it.
Though I agree with some things, there are other things I disagree with.
However, anything outside the topic of this thread can be discussed another time, I suppose.

Thank you.
 
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Rxlx

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I'm glad I took the time to read your post.
It was long, but I see you put a lot of thought into it.
Though I agree with some things, there are other things I disagree with.
However, anything outside the topic of this thread can be discussed another time, I suppose.

Thank you.
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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You said God had to, but did God have to do anything... especially if he has free will?
God had to create free will if He wanted love that was not robotic.
If God has free will, can he excercise it, in what he knows and does not know?
Is God in control of what he will or will not do?
God knows the words that people will speak on Earth at the time the Sun becomes a red giant and well beyond. He knows the future plots of Heylel, He can see his heart and future into eternity. Heylel is translated Lucifer from Hebrew.
Why do you believe this?
Is there a scripture that says this?
The one that was in the beginning with God... Is that one not a strong, awe inspired, deep loving and extremely wise leader, full of God’s Spirit?
Why a musician though?

Where in the Bible do you find support for this idea?
Heylel is the Hebrew for Lucifer the Son of the Morning. God needed an angel to lead worship, and this made him particularly great in light, Heylel means the Shining One. Of angels of light, he had the most light. To praise God, he knew him intimately best for a long time. Other angels following him. In the Bible it is written that his body was made to worship using the word "timbrels".

Isaiah 14:12-15,Ezekiel 28:11-19

This sounds like the angel that rebelled - the one called Devil and Satan.
That's right.
I can tell from this, you are not using the Bible as your source.
What book are you referring.
Revelations 12:7-9
I agree with this.
How wonderful that would have been... No one would get sick; grow old; or die.
Which means, no doctors, hospitals, morgues, undertakers... No dentists. :grin: ...and no synthetic drugs that kill us. :tonguewink:


This is true.
You made an excellent point here - the angels are not like fleshly beings.
Satan could only try to cause Jesus to sin against God, when Jesus was in the flesh.





I understand you are saying this - not from scripture, but your own thinking.
Isn't that dangerous, and might that not put you odds with the father, by stating thing you cannot be sure of, since they are not written down for us?

You are saying that before God made a family in heaven, he knew that there would be a rebellious son.
Why do you think God did not deal with any rebellious "child" in his heavenly realm, before bringing forth earthly children... especially knowing that bad apples tend to corrupt good ones?
Heylel was the angel who invented rebellion. Satan. God did not push him to rebel, it was Satan who chose and suggested rebellion to the other angels. Satan invented sin and death.

Matthew 25:41 Hell was originally made for angels. This in response to their intense rebellion. It was not to God's liking.
I would agree.




Some people are in Hell?
Can you meet me in this thread, and answer the question there. Thanks.
OK, briefly, I believe when people die in sin, they go to Hell, gloomy dungeons, fire, sulfer, demonic entities, various realms below as described in NDEs. 2 Peter 2:4
It's a sad state, indeed.
This world is a dangerous place for everyone, and children do not escape. :frowning:
Children are vulnerable, but escape Hell if they die. They are saved.
I'm glad I took the time to read your post.
It was long, but I see you put a lot of thought into it.
Though I agree with some things, there are other things I disagree with.
However, anything outside the topic of this thread can be discussed another time, I suppose.

Thank you.
Thanks
 
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Bob Crowley

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I don't have a "gift" or "dream" on this matter. It's really a matter of insight. I don't have the full answer especially in the light of Auschwitz and the modern day mass murder laughter of the unborn innocents, which is a process being pused by women in the main.

I once asked my past Presbyterian pastor why God created the devil.

He thought for a moment, shrugged a bit and said "Oh, he's got a job to do I suppose".

Obviously God planned that evil would be allowed in the sense He would have foreseen it, and yet still went ahead.

The only other option was to stay eternally wrapped up in a cosy trinitarian cocoon, take no risk and do nothing.

As soon as He created beings with "free will" He took the risk of allowing evil.. If He was going to allow the creatures to make their own decisions, then He woulld have foreseen the most evil of human actions, as well as the evil perpetuated by the demonic.

On the business of angels being tempted, Fr. Jose Fortea had this to say in his book "Interview with an Exorcist".

7. Why did God put the demons to the test?

The real question is, Why did God not grant all the angels the Beatific Vision from the first moment of their creation?...

Firs, God had to give each rational being a degree of happiness. Everyone in heaven sees God, but no one can enjoy him to an infinite degree; this is impossible for an infinite being. Each finite creature enjoys to the fullest degree possible without wanting more....

God, in His wisdom, decided that each angel would determine its degree of glory for eternity by its response to a divine test... A spirit can grow in its faith and its generosity toward God before it sees Him. But once admitted to the Beatific Vision, no further growth is possible - there can no longer be growth in faith where there is vision ...

Offering a being the possibility of faith also supposes the risk that in this same being evil may flourish instead of faith. ... The gift of freedom allows for a Hiter as well as a blessed Teresa of Calcutta (Mother Teresa). Once the gift of freedom has been given, consequences - good and evil - flow from every act of the will ...

... The same God who can create the cosmos with only an act of His will cannot create the love that is born and proven in the suffering of the faith. The love of God is not created; it must be freely given by a created being.

Compare the love shown by St. Maximilan Kolbe who gave up his life for another man in the starvation chamber to that of the evil perpetuated by the SS guards who ran the place. He chose faith and love - they chose evil.

While we're on our earthly sojourn and tests of faith, we are moving either towards love with a consequent invitation to finally see the Beatific Vision. How much we will enjoy that vision - how full will our spiritual glass be - will depend on our choices now.

Or we can move in the opposite direction and head towards Hell, by our own choice.

In this personal battle the devil is a catalyst (or enzyme in biological reactions if you like). He greatly speeds up the process by encouraging the human race to move towards his kingdom, and helps discern those who favour God over those who favour evil.
 
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Bob Crowley

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There is another take on the issue here. Note the comment that Satan fell because he "rebelled at the idea of being subjected to someone."

The "someone" I assume would be the human race. Maybe God put him in charge of the development of the human race, and Satan thought this was way below his dignity. If so, then he will hate the human race as he will blame us for his fall.


God created the angels as extremely intelligent beings, with knowledge immensely superior to man’s; and He predestined them to paradise, to eternal beatitude. Paradise, then, is not a passive and static contemplation of God. God Himself created everything in movement, both visible things — for example, the stars — and invisible things.

A great number of the angels fell because they rebelled against God. We recall that before admitting the angels to paradise, God subjected them to a trial of obedience and humility, of which we know the nature but not the specifics. The sin of the fallen angels was one of pride and disobedience. Satan, the most beautiful of all the angels, being aware of his extreme intelligence, rebelled at the idea of being subjected to someone. He forgot that he was a creature made by God. Many angels followed him in his folly of omnipotence and never turned back from their choice.
Nor can they repent of their decision, and they probably don't want to.


As you can see, the Church clearly teaches that fallen angels, demons, are definitively separated from God; they cannot repent from their sin, as we can. Why is this? It has to do with their spiritual nature. In our human nature, our intelligence and will (the spiritual powers of our soul) operate through the mediations of our senses and our emotions, of time and space, of the material universe. Those limitations create room, so to speak, for us to change our minds. We often make decisions without having full knowledge or awareness of all the factors involved, and without having full freedom from emotional biases. This is not the case with angels. They are pure spirits. They are not limited by time and space, by material mediations, as we are. And so, an angel’s rebellion against God is definitive, a clear and unequivocal rejection of God’s sovereignty and goodness. There is no going back from that decision, and they would never want to go back from it.

I think the fact we can repent is one of the reasons God created the material universe as well as the spiritual universe. In the spiritual universe decisions are cut and dried - in this universe we have some room to maneuvre. Nor could God fully demonstrate His love in the form of Christ's sacrifice in a purely spiritual universe. That required a material universe. God made it for a reason, even if it does add up to nothing, which indicates this universe is a temporary tool in His hands, which He will discard when it has served its purpose.

 
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Daniel Marsh

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I am thinking of theodicies, and why God created Lucifer knowing he would become so evil and curse so many. God loves us, and I tried describing that to a friend, but my explanation did not cut it with him. He is a free thinker, seems to have settled for pantheism, the universe is his god. Does anyone have a gift or a dream on this matter?
discernment and wisdom to know the truth of Jesus and rule of faith
 
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Apple Sky

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Yes. The spirit reveals from scripture, that God did not create Lucifer...

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! Isaiah 14:12

Lucifer (“son of the morning”) became Satan (“accuser”) when he fell to the earth. Jesus, speaking of this event, said, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from Heaven” (Luke 10:18 NKJV).
 
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CoreyD

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I once asked my past Presbyterian pastor why God created the devil.

He thought for a moment, shrugged a bit and said "Oh, he's got a job to do I suppose".
Your past Presbyterian pastor did what 99% pastors have done since the second century - fail to let the scriptures be the authority on what God says.
This is very sad, because they claim that Jesus is Lord, and fail to follow the example set by the Lord, who on occasion after occasion said in response to persons... “It is written...", or “What is written in the Law?... How do you read it?"

Jesus' followers imitated his example of using the scriptures as the authority.
It truly saddens me that people are so spiritually starved, because rather than God's word being fed to the people, philosophies of men are instead promoted as God's word. :frowning:

The quality of humility, is certainly needed in order to imitate Christ.

The only other option was to stay eternally wrapped up in a cosy trinitarian cocoon, take no risk and do nothing.

As soon as He created beings with "free will" He took the risk of allowing evil.. If He was going to allow the creatures to make their own decisions, then He woulld have foreseen the most evil of human actions, as well as the evil perpetuated by the demonic.
I like that you used the word allowed.
God certainly allowed the evil that we see today.
The Bible says... "For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will, but because of the One who subjected it, in hope". Romans 8:20

God provided the hope, at the very beginning of the fall of man. Genesis 3:15; Genesis 22:18; Galatians 3:16, 29; Revelation 12:1-12

This highlights the quality of Wisdom.
 
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CoreyD

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According to Jesus, the Devil is not working for God, but rather, the Devil is working against God.
John 8:44
You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.​

Notice that the Devil carries out "his own desires", and this is because he chose not to "stand in the truth".
In other words, the Devil wanted out. He quit the job God wanted him to do, and went rouge.

It's like a man that, decides he does not want to do what his boss orders him to do, and so, he says, "Look. I am not doing that. This is not what I came here for. I quit".
Then off he goes, and does what he wants. He may even become a thief; a drug pusher; an arms dealer...

He was not born a thief, drug pusher, or arms dealer, but he became such.
The Devil was not created, or made by God. The angel that was created by God, made himself the Devil, by opposing God (Devil - Greek diabolos, means accuser or slanderer).
The angel that rebelled against God, acquired the name... or became Satan the Devil, because he opposed, and slandered God.

Satanas: Satan
Usage: In the New Testament, "Satanas" refers to Satan, the chief adversary of God and humanity. He is depicted as a personal being who opposes God's purposes and seeks to lead people away from the truth.


Isaiah 14:3, 4, 14
3 It shall come to pass in the day the Lord gives you rest from your sorrow, and from your fear and the hard bondage in which you were made to serve, 4 that you will take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say:​
...​
9 “Hell from beneath is excited about you, To meet you at your coming; It stirs up the dead for you, All the chief ones of the earth; It has raised up from their thrones All the kings of the nations.
10 They all shall speak and say to you: ‘Have you also become as weak as we? Have you become like us?
11 Your pomp is brought down to Sheol, And the sound of your stringed instruments; The maggot is spread under you, And worms cover you.’
12 “How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, You who weakened the nations!
13 For you have said in your heart: ‘I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will also sit on the mount of the congregation On the farthest sides of the north;
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High.’
15 Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol, To the lowest depths of the Pit.
16 “Those who see you will gaze at you, And consider you, saying: ‘Is this the man who made the earth tremble, Who shook kingdoms,
17 Who made the world as a wilderness And destroyed its cities, Who did not open the house of his prisoners?’
18 “All the kings of the nations, All of them, sleep in glory, Everyone in his own house;
19 But you are cast out of your grave Like an abominable branch, Like the garment of those who are slain, Thrust through with a sword, Who go down to the stones of the pit, Like a corpse trodden underfoot.
20 You will not be joined with them in burial, Because you have destroyed your land And slain your people. The brood of evildoers shall never be named.
21 Prepare slaughter for his children Because of the iniquity of their fathers, Lest they rise up and possess the land, And fill the face of the world with cities.”​

The Bible here says, this is a message against the king of Babylon, who will be brought low, from his high position. So low that he will be less honored than all the kings slain before him.

At Luke 10:18 Jesus said. I theóreó: to behold, to observe, to look at, to perceive Satan piptó: To fall, to descend, to perish, to fail from heaven, because Jesus saw that the prince of this world will be cast out. John 12:31
“Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world shall be cast out.​

Jesus knew that the ruler of this world was coming.
John 14:30
I will not speak much more with you, for the ruler of the world is coming, and he has nothing in regard to Me,​

This occurs when Jesus begins to rule, and casts the Devil and his angels down to the earth.
Revelation 12:7-12
7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. 9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.​
10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.”​

Many people do not realize that Satan was in heaven, even when Jesus walked the earth, and was not cast to the earth, prior to Jesus' ascension.
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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According to Jesus, the Devil is not working for God, but rather, the Devil is working against God.
John 8:44
You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.​

Notice that the Devil carries out "his own desires", and this is because he chose not to "stand in the truth".
In other words, the Devil wanted out. He quit the job God wanted him to do, and went rouge.

It's like a man that, decides he does not want to do what his boss orders him to do, and so, he says, "Look. I am not doing that. This is not what I came here for. I quit".
Then off he goes, and does what he wants. He may even become a thief; a drug pusher; an arms dealer...

He was not born a thief, drug pusher, or arms dealer, but he became such.
The Devil was not created, or made by God. The angel that was created by God, made himself the Devil, by opposing God (Devil - Greek diabolos, means accuser or slanderer).
The angel that rebelled against God, acquired the name... or became Satan the Devil, because he opposed, and slandered God.

Satanas: Satan
Usage: In the New Testament, "Satanas" refers to Satan, the chief adversary of God and humanity. He is depicted as a personal being who opposes God's purposes and seeks to lead people away from the truth.


Isaiah 14:3, 4, 14
3 It shall come to pass in the day the Lord gives you rest from your sorrow, and from your fear and the hard bondage in which you were made to serve, 4 that you will take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say:​
...​
9 “Hell from beneath is excited about you, To meet you at your coming; It stirs up the dead for you, All the chief ones of the earth; It has raised up from their thrones All the kings of the nations.
10 They all shall speak and say to you: ‘Have you also become as weak as we? Have you become like us?
11 Your pomp is brought down to Sheol, And the sound of your stringed instruments; The maggot is spread under you, And worms cover you.’
12 “How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, You who weakened the nations!
13 For you have said in your heart: ‘I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will also sit on the mount of the congregation On the farthest sides of the north;
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High.’
15 Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol, To the lowest depths of the Pit.
16 “Those who see you will gaze at you, And consider you, saying: ‘Is this the man who made the earth tremble, Who shook kingdoms,
17 Who made the world as a wilderness And destroyed its cities, Who did not open the house of his prisoners?’
18 “All the kings of the nations, All of them, sleep in glory, Everyone in his own house;
19 But you are cast out of your grave Like an abominable branch, Like the garment of those who are slain, Thrust through with a sword, Who go down to the stones of the pit, Like a corpse trodden underfoot.
20 You will not be joined with them in burial, Because you have destroyed your land And slain your people. The brood of evildoers shall never be named.
21 Prepare slaughter for his children Because of the iniquity of their fathers, Lest they rise up and possess the land, And fill the face of the world with cities.”​

The Bible here says, this is a message against the king of Babylon, who will be brought low, from his high position. So low that he will be less honored than all the kings slain before him.

At Luke 10:18 Jesus said. I theóreó: to behold, to observe, to look at, to perceive Satan piptó: To fall, to descend, to perish, to fail from heaven, because Jesus saw that the prince of this world will be cast out. John 12:31
“Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world shall be cast out.​

Jesus knew that the ruler of this world was coming.
John 14:30
I will not speak much more with you, for the ruler of the world is coming, and he has nothing in regard to Me,​

This occurs when Jesus begins to rule, and casts the Devil and his angels down to the earth.
Revelation 12:7-12
7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. 9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.​
10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.”​

Many people do not realize that Satan was in heaven, even when Jesus walked the earth, and was not cast to the earth, prior to Jesus' ascension.
I'd say Satan and is angels were cast out of Heaven after they fell. Jesus saw Satan fall like lightening. Hell fire was created. Satan in Jesus' times on Earth was with him at a distance aiming to obtain the goal of overcoming Jesus, for example, he tempted Jesus to worship him in Luke 4, and then tried to hold Him in death.
 
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CoreyD

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I'd say Satan and is angels were cast out of Heaven after they fell. Jesus saw Satan fall like lightening. Hell fire was created. Satan in Jesus' times on Earth was with him at a distance aiming to obtain the goal of overcoming Jesus, for example, he tempted Jesus to worship him in Luke 4, and then tried to hold Him in death.
Many people say this.
However, what the Bible says is important to us, isn't it, because while what the Bible says is the truth from God, what many believe is usually flawed, isn't it.
John received a Revelation from the Lord Jesus, who is in heaven, on "the things which must soon take place". Revelation 1:1

The revelation was not on the things that had happened already.
John was told, "Do not seal the words of the prophecy of this book; for the time is near." Revelation 22:10
This prophetic book, was to be understood as future events unfolded. It is the final Chapter before the Lord's coming. Revelation 22:18-20

That direct statement in Revelation 1:1, is just one of many scriptures that does not support the idea people have of Satan's ousting from heaven.
The war in heaven could not have occurred, before, the angels sinned in the days of Noah Genesis 6:1-5, and were punished.
The Bible says, these angels "left their proper dwelling". Jude 1:6

There is also the account in Job 1, of Satan wrecking havoc on Job and what is his, and then going to heaven to brag before God's face, in the midst of his brothers. Job 1:6-12; Job 2:1-7
If Satan has been ousted from heaven, prior to this, the book of Job could not contain that information.

Jesus prophesied Satan's ousting from heaven. John 14:30 Also his casting out. John 12:31

Finally, we have Revelation 12:7-12, which says...
7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. 9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.

Notice how many points in those verses refutes the idea of an early ousting of the Devil, and the wicked angels.
  1. Satan had no place in heaven, and there was rejoicing because he was gone.
  2. Satan is referred to as the old serpent, which could only be the case, if this happens well after the Garden of Eden.
  3. The Kingdom was not yet come, prior to the Messiah, and his receiving power and authority, which could not have happened prior to Jesus ministry, and his preaching that the kingdom of God was near.
  4. The brothers of Christ were not yet born, and Satan was not put under their feet, before the blood of the lamb was shed.
  5. When cast out, the Devil is given only a short time, to vent his anger, before his time is up. That was not following the Garden incident.
So, really, there is no scriptural backing for the idea that Satan was cast out of heaven prior to the Messiah's ascension and receiving kingdom authority.
I'm actually looking closely at the Revelation by Jesus' angel, in the thread on Angels, where the significance of this message, is the focus.
 
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Beth77

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I think that God consigned the devil to torment us here on Earth as a part of our development. I don't think that an angel of God would, on their own accord, "rebell" against God. I think the devil is doing exactly what God created him to do. And in the end I believe that God will fix the devil along with other "fallen" angels.
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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Many people say this.
However, what the Bible says is important to us, isn't it, because while what the Bible says is the truth from God, what many believe is usually flawed, isn't it.
John received a Revelation from the Lord Jesus, who is in heaven, on "the things which must soon take place". Revelation 1:1

The revelation was not on the things that had happened already.
John was told, "Do not seal the words of the prophecy of this book; for the time is near." Revelation 22:10
This prophetic book, was to be understood as future events unfolded. It is the final Chapter before the Lord's coming. Revelation 22:18-20

That direct statement in Revelation 1:1, is just one of many scriptures that does not support the idea people have of Satan's ousting from heaven.
The war in heaven could not have occurred, before, the angels sinned in the days of Noah Genesis 6:1-5, and were punished.
The Bible says, these angels "left their proper dwelling". Jude 1:6

There is also the account in Job 1, of Satan wrecking havoc on Job and what is his, and then going to heaven to brag before God's face, in the midst of his brothers. Job 1:6-12; Job 2:1-7
If Satan has been ousted from heaven, prior to this, the book of Job could not contain that information.

Jesus prophesied Satan's ousting from heaven. John 14:30 Also his casting out. John 12:31

Finally, we have Revelation 12:7-12, which says...
7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. 9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.

Notice how many points in those verses refutes the idea of an early ousting of the Devil, and the wicked angels.
  1. Satan had no place in heaven, and there was rejoicing because he was gone.
  2. Satan is referred to as the old serpent, which could only be the case, if this happens well after the Garden of Eden.
  3. The Kingdom was not yet come, prior to the Messiah, and his receiving power and authority, which could not have happened prior to Jesus ministry, and his preaching that the kingdom of God was near.
  4. The brothers of Christ were not yet born, and Satan was not put under their feet, before the blood of the lamb was shed.
  5. When cast out, the Devil is given only a short time, to vent his anger, before his time is up. That was not following the Garden incident.
So, really, there is no scriptural backing for the idea that Satan was cast out of heaven prior to the Messiah's ascension and receiving kingdom authority.
I'm actually looking closely at the Revelation by Jesus' angel, in the thread on Angels, where the significance of this message, is the focus.
I'd say that Satan and his cohorts move around as from Job, walking up and down the Earth, and then high above in the assembly of sons of God. He is with Jesus in Luke 4 in the wilderness, tempting Jesus, and by tradition Satan is by the cross of Jesus, and his power is broken in Hell. In Revelation it seems he is back in Heaven. Perhaps it was 1990 and he was thrust out, reckoning being that since then, there has been multiplied world disasters.
 
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Bob Crowley

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I think that God consigned the devil to torment us here on Earth as a part of our development. I don't think that an angel of God would, on their own accord, "rebell" against God. I think the devil is doing exactly what God created him to do. And in the end I believe that God will fix the devil along with other "fallen" angels.
The closest answer I can find to this is outlined in Fr. Jose Fortea's book "Interview with an Exorist". Since he had a lot of experience in spiritual matters, I think he'd know what he was talking about.

7. Why did God put the demons to the test?

The real question is, Why did God not grant all the angels the Beatific Vision from the first moment of their creation? Why did He take the chance that some of them would rebel against Him and become demons? ...

First God had to give to each rational being a degree of happiness. Everyone in heaven sees God, but no one can enjoy Him to an infinite degree; this is impossible for a finite being. Each finite creature enjoys to the fullest degree possible without wanting more ...

God, in his wisdom decided that each angel would determine its degree of glory for eternity by its response to a divine test. ... A spirit can grow in its faith and in its generosity toward God before it sees Him. But once admitted to the Beatific Vision, no further growth is possible - there can no longer be growth in faith where there is vision ..

Offering a being the possibility of faith also supposes the risk that in this same being evil may flourish instead of faith.... a saint is not created: one becomes a saint through the action of grace. The gift of freedom allows for a Hitler as well as a (Mother Teresa). Once the gift of freedom has been given, consequences - good or evil - flow from every act of the will. ... The possibility of evil was already part of the divine plan before the creation of thinking beings .. "

God put the angels to the test since once they were admitted to the Beatific Vision there was no possibility of further growth. Some used that test to rebel against God, and they are forever excluded from the Beatific Vision.

Likewise we are being "tested" but in a different environment. Each of us will one day be admitted to, or excluded from, the Beatific Vision.

We see the results of our choices for good or evil every day in this world.
 
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CoreyD

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I think that God consigned the devil to torment us here on Earth as a part of our development. I don't think that an angel of God would, on their own accord, "rebell" against God. I think the devil is doing exactly what God created him to do. And in the end I believe that God will fix the devil along with other "fallen" angels.
I'm so glad that's what you think, and there is no scriptural support for it, because atheists would be the first to present that as clear evidence against a God of love, and they would be right.
I believe atheist love to hear the thoughts of most who identify as Christian.

The first argument I can anticipate is this:
If angels do not rebel on their own accord, that means God made about a third of his angels rebellious, so that they did gross things, and then on top of that, God, turned around and punished them.
It sounds like something Satan would want us to say, to sully God's good reputation.

That's why I love that God preserved his word, so that Jesus and his apostles could use it, and his followers today can imitate them, in using it.
That way, many people, including atheists come to know the truth of God.

According to Jesus, the angel that became Devil, and Satan, did not stand firm in the truth.
Clearly, as one of God's sons, that was God's will for him - to stand firm in the truth, that is, and all his children, and that is what God is working toward. Ephesians 1:10

The Bible says "God is not a God of disorder, but of peace". 1 Corinthians 14:33
To say that God created angels to do these wicked things against him and his children, is the same thing as saying God created disorder, and the total opposite of peace, which is contrary to the truth about God.

The Bible says, "Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds." 2 Corinthians 11:14, 15
What the Devil would have us believe, is that there is no truth to the Bible...or God.
 
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Beth77

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To say that God created angels to do these wicked things against him and his children, is the same thing as saying God created disorder, and the total opposite of peace, which is contrary to the truth about God.

Please remember that Satan needed and received God's permission to do horrible things to Job in order to test Job.

In a sense we are all Job. Satan's job is to torment (test) all of us, as God planned.

God is always in control. Nobody fooled God. Whatever is happening is all according to God's plan and, yes, in the end God will restore the "fallen" angels back to their original, perfect, holy, condition.
 
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CoreyD

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Please remember that Satan needed and received God's permission to do horrible things to Job in order to test Job.
Why Satan needed permission is not stated in the Bible.
What Satan said, is that God was protecting and blessing Job, and God said Job was an blameless man, fearing God.
Job 1:8-10
8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?​
9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?​
10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.​

So, one can glean why Satan needed permission, to go as far as he went... which was
  • to take all of Job's livestock, and servants. Job 1:14-17
  • to kill Job's children. Job 1:18, 19
  • to plague Job with a disease. Job 2:7
Yes, this allowed Job's integrity to be tested.

In a sense we are all Job. Satan's job is to torment (test) all of us, as God planned.

God is always in control. Nobody fooled God. Whatever is happening is all according to God's plan and, yes, in the end God will restore the "fallen" angels back to their original, perfect, holy, condition.
All of this is what you think, but it is not in the Bible, but goes contrary, according to just two scriptures I mentioned.
Because a wicked person is allowed to do something, that does not mean God created the person wicked, and it does not mean that God planned for the person to do those things.
That is your thinking. Not God's... and you will not find your thinking in the Bible, as you well know.

If you believe God is in control, why would you think he has to (A) create a virus to kill, and then fix it, rather than (B) allow a virus that developed, to run it's course until he fixes it?
 
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