• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Creationists: how close is the Jewish Calandar to the age of the Earth?

Neostarwcc

We are saved purely by the work and grace of God.
Site Supporter
Dec 13, 2015
5,460
4,479
38
US
✟1,064,241.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
I apologize if a topic already exists on this subject somewhere I did a search for the subject and couldn't find a topic with the title that was recently created. My question is simple. According to Jewish history Adam and Eve and thus the universe were created 5,784 years ago. Modern Creation science dates the Earth somewhere between 6,000 and 10,000 years old, just how close is the Jewish Calandar to actual biblical truth?
 

AlexB23

Christian
CF Ambassadors
Site Supporter
Aug 11, 2023
11,388
7,696
25
WI
✟644,408.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Just how close is the Jewish Calandar to actual biblical truth?
Very far, cos I am an Old Earth Creationist who believes in day-age creationism and an earth that is 4.5 billion years old (and a universe that is 13.8 billion years old), where the Hebrew word "Yom" refers to an unspecified length of time that may vary. :) But hey, I will let my Young-Earth Creationist brethren join the thread, as I am curious if the Jewish calendar is related to Young-Earth Creationism in any way.
 
Upvote 0

Neostarwcc

We are saved purely by the work and grace of God.
Site Supporter
Dec 13, 2015
5,460
4,479
38
US
✟1,064,241.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Very far, cos I am an Old Earth Creationist who believes in day-age creationism and an earth that is 4.5 billion years old (and a universe that is 13.8 billion years old), where the Hebrew word "Yom" refers to an unspecified length of time that may vary. :) But hey, I will let my Young-Earth Creationist brethren join the thread, as I am curious if the Jewish calendar is related to Young-Earth Creationism in any way.

The Hebrew word Yom means a 24 hour period of time though but I'm not here to debate old earth Creationism and young earth creationism. I also am very curious as to the replies to this topic and to see the evidences that exist for defending the Jewish Calander.
 
Upvote 0

AlexB23

Christian
CF Ambassadors
Site Supporter
Aug 11, 2023
11,388
7,696
25
WI
✟644,408.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
The Hebrew word Yom means a 24 hour period of time though but I'm not here to debate old earth Creationism and young earth creationism. I also am very curious as to the replies to this topic and to see the evidences that exist for defending the Jewish Calander.
Same here, I am not here to debate Young-Earth Creationists (YEC), and hey, we both believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, and God as the Creator of the Universe, whether the Earth is a few billion years old as in my view, or a few thousand years old. Hebrew is a complex language, hence why it took many years to translate the Bible.

If I was a YEC, I would say that the Earth was made in 4004 BC, as that is what the timeline was stated by an Irish guy named Ussher, and is one of the most popular YEC dates for the age of the Earth and Universe:
 
Upvote 0

Friedrich Rubinstein

Well-Known Member
Aug 20, 2020
1,372
1,445
Europe
Visit site
✟225,498.00
Country
Germany
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
The Jewish calendar is based on the dates given in the Bible, but when there were no explicit dates given they simply left a gap. Some time ago the archeologist David Rohl found a stele in Egypt that allowed a better chronology and determined this "gap" to be 240 years. With his findings the excavations of Kathleen Kenyon at Jericho make perfect sense now (who determined that Jericho was destroyed almost 300 years before the Israelites crossed the Jordan, because she used the Jewish calendar and didn't yet know about Rohl's find). If this is true, then the Jewish calendar is off at least 240 years :)

There is also a German mathematician, Dr. Paul Gerhard Zint, who attempted to calculate the date of the Creation of the world by using every information the Bible provides. According to him, we're living now in the year 6257. His calculations are too complex for me to fully grasp, let alone explain.

I personally don't necessarily think that we can possibly know the exact date, but it's interesting nevertheless :)
 
  • Informative
Reactions: AlexB23
Upvote 0

David Lamb

Well-Known Member
May 30, 2024
2,915
1,529
76
Paignton
✟64,762.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Genesis describes ex materia creation, not ex nihilo. It describes an ancient near east cosmology. It has nothing to do with the age of the earth.
Genesis does not describe an ex materia creation. It describes God bring things into existence by saying, "Let there be .... and there was ....." Now, you may not believe it, but that is what it describes.
 
Upvote 0

Job 33:6

Well-Known Member
Jun 15, 2017
9,158
3,086
Hartford, Connecticut
✟349,690.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Genesis does not describe an ex materia creation. It describes God bring things into existence by saying, "Let there be .... and there was ....." Now, you may not believe it, but that is what it describes.
That's an incorrect understanding of the text. Genesis indeed does describe creation ex materia, not ex nihilo. Sorry if this upsets you.

1 In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters. 3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.

God doesn't say "Let there be" until verse 3. But prior to verse 3, the deep was already present, along with the formless earth before God began creating with the spoken word.

Additionally, consider passages such as verse 9:
9 And God said, “Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear.” And it was so. 10 God called the dry land Earth,[d] and the waters that were gathered together he called Seas. And God saw that it was good.

God said, and yet, look at what actually happens. Waters were gathered. They did not appear out of nothing.

Or verse 6:
6 And God said, “Let there be an expanse[a] in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.” 7 And God made[b] the expanse and separated the waters that were under the expanse from the waters that were above the expanse. And it was so. 8 And God called the expanse Heaven.[c] And there was evening and there was morning, the second day.

God said Let there be an expanse. But an expanse isn't actually a thing. Its just empty space.

Or verse 11:
11 And God said, “Let the earth sprout vegetation, plants[e] yielding seed, and fruit trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind, on the earth.” And it was so. 12 The earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed according to their own kinds, and trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening and there was morning, the third day.

God said, let the earth sprout vegetation. Well, then the text says :the earth brought forth vegetation. It didn't appear out of nothing, rather the earth brought it forth.

The text is in fact describing ex materia creation. And that's why some Bible translations such as the NRSV, NRSVue, and CEB say "When God created the heavens and the earth" or "In the beginning when God created the heavens and the earth"

In the beginning when God created the heavens and the earth, the earth was a formless void and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters. Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light. NRSV

1 When God began to create[a] the heavens and the earth, 2 the earth was c
omplete chaos, and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God[b] swept over the face of the waters. 3 Then God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. NRSVue

1When God began to create the heavens and the earth— 2the earth was without shape or form, it was dark over the deep sea, and God’s wind swept over the waters— 3God said, “Let there be light.” And so light appeared. CEB



Also, Genesis chapter 1 begins with the same literary introduction as Genesis chapter 2, which is also ex materia.

Genesis 1:
verse 1: introduction
verse 2: background conditions
verse 3: God begins creating ex materia

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.

Chapter 2:
verse 4: introduction
verse 5-6: background conditions
verse 7: God begins creating ex materia.

4 This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, when the Lord God made the earth and the heavens.
5 Now no shrub had yet appeared on the earth[a] and no plant had yet sprung up, for the Lord God had not sent rain on the earth and there was no one to work the ground, 6 but streams[b] came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground. 7 Then the Lord God formed a man[c] from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

And this is a common 3 step literary introduction of ancient Isrealite texts. We see it in extrabiblical texts as well.

And there are other ways that we know that it is ex materia as well. The text of Genesis closely follows the same creation order of the Egyptian memphite theology which is also ex materia. It also closely follows parallels of Enuma Elish and the Baal Cycle which are both also ex materia creation events, the Baal Cycle is also 7 days.


In Genesis 1 God creates with the spoken word. That doesn't occur until verse 3.

If you do a simple word study of "Bara" in the old testament, you can see very clear examples of the text referring to ex materia creation, but never clearly identifying any ex nihilo creation events.

And if you look at Genesis 1 closely, you'll find numerous examples, such as those noted above, in which God speaks and creates, but in reality nothing is actually coming into existance ex materia. Such as when God creates the earth:

9And God said, “Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear.” And it was so. 10 God called the dry ground “land,” and the gathered waters he called “seas.” And God saw that it was good.

God created here in verse 9 and 10, and yet we know that the earth was already there beforehand. God simply gathered the waters to reveal the earth, and that is the creative act of day 3.

Among other things.

Genesis 1 also follows the same syntax of Jeremiah 26:1 and 27:1 among others. Which define the beginning of God's reign, not so much the beginning of material existence.

And many passages throughout the old testament describe God's creation as ex materia, such as Proverbs 8 and Job 38


 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Job 33:6

Well-Known Member
Jun 15, 2017
9,158
3,086
Hartford, Connecticut
✟349,690.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Genesis 1:1-3 NRSV
[1] In the beginning when God created the heavens and the earth, [2] the earth was a formless void and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters. [3] Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.

Do you find something funny about what the Bible says? Read it closely. "The earth was a formless void".

The earth was already there. Formless. So what did God do on day 3 of creation?

Genesis 1:9-10 NRSV
[9] And God said, “Let the waters under the sky be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear.” And it was so. [10] God called the dry land Earth, and the waters that were gathered together he called Seas. And God saw that it was good.

God spoke "And God said". And God created the earth. He called the dry land earth.

And what actually happened? "The waters that were gathered, let the water be gathered"

It says, not that the earth appeared out of nothing. Rather, the waters were gathered to reveal the dry land.

That's creation. How it happened. Plainly stated.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Platte

Well-Known Member
Jul 14, 2020
1,343
251
56
Virginia
✟59,827.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Genesis 1:1-3 NRSV
[1] In the beginning when God created the heavens and the earth, [2] the earth was a formless void and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters. [3] Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.

Do you find something funny about what the Bible says? Read it closely. "The earth was a formless void".

The earth was already there. Formless. So what did God do on day 3 of creation?

Genesis 1:9-10 NRSV
[9] And God said, “Let the waters under the sky be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear.” And it was so. [10] God called the dry land Earth, and the waters that were gathered together he called Seas. And God saw that it was good.

God spoke "And God said". And God created the earth. He called the dry land earth.

And what actually happened? "The waters that were gathered, let the water be gathered"

It says, not that the earth appeared out of nothing. Rather, the waters were gathered to reveal the dry land.

That's creation. How it happened. Plainly stated.
I found what you said funny. I thought you were joking sorry. All of Creation took God 6 days. That’s it - 6.
When God created the Earth it had nothing. No animals, no plants, nothing. The Earth completely empty - it was Void.
The Earth was also without form - it had no topography. No hills, no valleys, just a flat surface. Which as we know, if the Earth was without form, the earth would be completely covered with water about 2 miles deep.
The Earth was without form and void. God then gathered the water together - that happens when you add topography to the Earth. Create deep topography and the water gathers there - when enough water gathers together, dry land appears. What I’m saying isn’t complicated.
The Earth and ALL of creation took 6 days. That’s it. Stop with the nonsense.

These are the direct words from God. Nothing ambiguous in what He said.
“For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭20‬:‭11‬
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: coffee4u
Upvote 0

Job 33:6

Well-Known Member
Jun 15, 2017
9,158
3,086
Hartford, Connecticut
✟349,690.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I found what you said funny. I thought you were joking sorry. All of Creation took God 6 days. That’s it - 6.
When God created the Earth it had nothing. No animals, no plants, nothing. The Earth completely empty - it was Void.
The Earth was also without form - it had no topography. No hills, no valleys, just a flat surface. Which as we know, if the Earth was without form, the earth would be completely covered with water about 2 miles deep.
The Earth was without form and void. God then gathered the water together - that happens when you add topography to the Earth. Create deep topography and the water gathers there - when enough water gathers together, dry land appears. What I’m saying isn’t complicated.
The Earth and ALL of creation took 6 days. That’s it. Stop with the nonsense.

These are the direct words from God. Nothing ambiguous in what He said.
“For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭20‬:‭11‬
The point here is that the Earth was formless and void and present before God began creating it by giving it form.

And the text is pretty plain about this, and I agree that it is simple, but a lot of people have a hard time with accepting this.

Yes the creation did unfold over 6 days, with God taking up the throne on the 7th day. God's resting place is on the throne, that's what it means when he rests, see Isaiah 66:1-2 and Psalm 132.

Isaiah 66:1-2 NIV
[1] This is what the Lord says: “Heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool. Where is the house you will build for me? Where will my resting place be? [2] Has not my hand made all these things, and so they came into being?” declares the Lord.

Psalms 132:7-8, 13-14 NIV
[7] “Let us go to his dwelling place, let us worship at his footstool, saying, [8] ‘Arise, Lord, and come to your resting place, you and the ark of your might.
[13] For the Lord has chosen Zion, he has desired it for his dwelling, saying, [14] “This is my resting place for ever and ever; here I will sit enthroned, for I have desired it.


But before God began creating, the earth was formless and void, it was there.

And it's the same thing in chapter two if you read it closely, the story starts out with land without vegetation and without water, and when God creates Adam, he doesn't just snap his fingers and Adam appears, rather God takes the material that is present and forms Adam out of it.


And that's what it means to be ex-materia, as opposed to ex nihilo.

And this is an important detail that I think a lot of people miss.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Platte

Well-Known Member
Jul 14, 2020
1,343
251
56
Virginia
✟59,827.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
The point here is that the Earth was formless and void and present before God began creating it by giving it form.

And the text is pretty plain about this, and I agree that it is simple, but a lot of people have a hard time with accepting this.

Yes the creation did unfold over 6 days, with God taking up the throne on the 7th day. God's resting place is on the throne, that's what it means when he rests, see Isaiah 66:1-2 and Psalm 132.

Isaiah 66:1-2 NIV
[1] This is what the Lord says: “Heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool. Where is the house you will build for me? Where will my resting place be? [2] Has not my hand made all these things, and so they came into being?” declares the Lord.

Psalms 132:7-8, 13-14 NIV
[7] “Let us go to his dwelling place, let us worship at his footstool, saying, [8] ‘Arise, Lord, and come to your resting place, you and the ark of your might.
[13] For the Lord has chosen Zion, he has desired it for his dwelling, saying, [14] “This is my resting place for ever and ever; here I will sit enthroned, for I have desired it.


But before God began creating, the earth was formless and void, it was there.

And it's the same thing in chapter two if you read it closely, the story starts out with land without vegetation and without water, and when God creates Adam, he doesn't just snap his fingers and Adam appears, rather God takes the material that is present and forms Adam out of it.


And that's what it means to be ex-materia, as opposed to ex nihilo.

And this is an important detail that I think a lot of people miss.
Lol
 
Upvote 0

David Lamb

Well-Known Member
May 30, 2024
2,915
1,529
76
Paignton
✟64,762.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
That's an incorrect understanding of the text. Genesis indeed does describe creation ex materia, not ex nihilo. Sorry if this upsets you.

1 In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters. 3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.

God doesn't say "Let there be" until verse 3. But prior to verse 3, the deep was already present, along with the formless earth before God began creating with the spoken word.

Additionally, consider passages such as verse 9:
9 And God said, “Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear.” And it was so. 10 God called the dry land Earth,[d] and the waters that were gathered together he called Seas. And God saw that it was good.

God said, and yet, look at what actually happens. Waters were gathered. They did not appear out of nothing.

Or verse 6:
6 And God said, “Let there be an expanse[a] in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.” 7 And God made[b] the expanse and separated the waters that were under the expanse from the waters that were above the expanse. And it was so. 8 And God called the expanse Heaven.[c] And there was evening and there was morning, the second day.

God said Let there be an expanse. But an expanse isn't actually a thing. Its just empty space.

Or verse 11:
11 And God said, “Let the earth sprout vegetation, plants[e] yielding seed, and fruit trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind, on the earth.” And it was so. 12 The earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed according to their own kinds, and trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening and there was morning, the third day.

God said, let the earth sprout vegetation. Well, then the text says :the earth brought forth vegetation. It didn't appear out of nothing, rather the earth brought it forth.

The text is in fact describing ex materia creation. And that's why some Bible translations such as the NRSV, NRSVue, and CEB say "When God created the heavens and the earth" or "In the beginning when God created the heavens and the earth"

In the beginning when God created the heavens and the earth, the earth was a formless void and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters. Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light. NRSV

1 When God began to create[a] the heavens and the earth, 2 the earth was c
omplete chaos, and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God[b] swept over the face of the waters. 3 Then God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. NRSVue

1When God began to create the heavens and the earth— 2the earth was without shape or form, it was dark over the deep sea, and God’s wind swept over the waters— 3God said, “Let there be light.” And so light appeared. CEB



Also, Genesis chapter 1 begins with the same literary introduction as Genesis chapter 2, which is also ex materia.

Genesis 1:
verse 1: introduction
verse 2: background conditions
verse 3: God begins creating ex materia

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.

Chapter 2:
verse 4: introduction
verse 5-6: background conditions
verse 7: God begins creating ex materia.

4 This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, when the Lord God made the earth and the heavens.
5 Now no shrub had yet appeared on the earth[a] and no plant had yet sprung up, for the Lord God had not sent rain on the earth and there was no one to work the ground, 6 but streams[b] came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground. 7 Then the Lord God formed a man[c] from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

And this is a common 3 step literary introduction of ancient Isrealite texts. We see it in extrabiblical texts as well.

And there are other ways that we know that it is ex materia as well. The text of Genesis closely follows the same creation order of the Egyptian memphite theology which is also ex materia. It also closely follows parallels of Enuma Elish and the Baal Cycle which are both also ex materia creation events, the Baal Cycle is also 7 days.


In Genesis 1 God creates with the spoken word. That doesn't occur until verse 3.

If you do a simple word study of "Bara" in the old testament, you can see very clear examples of the text referring to ex materia creation, but never clearly identifying any ex nihilo creation events.

And if you look at Genesis 1 closely, you'll find numerous examples, such as those noted above, in which God speaks and creates, but in reality nothing is actually coming into existance ex materia. Such as when God creates the earth:

9And God said, “Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear.” And it was so. 10 God called the dry ground “land,” and the gathered waters he called “seas.” And God saw that it was good.

God created here in verse 9 and 10, and yet we know that the earth was already there beforehand. God simply gathered the waters to reveal the earth, and that is the creative act of day 3.

Among other things.

Genesis 1 also follows the same syntax of Jeremiah 26:1 and 27:1 among others. Which define the beginning of God's reign, not so much the beginning of material existence.

And many passages throughout the old testament describe God's creation as ex materia, such as Proverbs 8 and Job 38


So when the New Testament says:

“1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.” (Joh 1:1-3 NKJV)

do you believe that means, "All things apart from the heavens and the earth were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made, except for the heavens and the earth"?
 
Upvote 0

Platte

Well-Known Member
Jul 14, 2020
1,343
251
56
Virginia
✟59,827.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
The point here is that the Earth was formless and void and present before God began creating it by giving it form.

But before God began creating, the earth was formless and void, it was there.
Day 1 starts like this.
In the beginning God created the earth - an earth without form (no topography) and void (empty). The Bible clearly says the earth was created here - in the beginning. Creation began with the earth (an earth that was without form and void).
What is your motivation for not accepting that? Be straight up. Why are you doing all you can to find an angle to not accept that everything was created approx 6000 years ago and took 6 days to complete?
Please answer that question.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Job 33:6

Well-Known Member
Jun 15, 2017
9,158
3,086
Hartford, Connecticut
✟349,690.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
So when the New Testament says:

“1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.” (Joh 1:1-3 NKJV)

do you believe that means, "All things apart from the heavens and the earth were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made, except for the heavens and the earth"?

A. "Made" isn't clarified in the passage as ex materia or ex nihilo.

But more importantly,
B. The book of John isn't the book of Genesis.

The book of John was written many centuries after Genesis. Hundreds of years. By a different author. In a different place. A different time. A different cultural context.

Similar to how Satan in the book of Mathew is not "the satan" in the book of Job. These are different concepts from different books, written by different authors, that present different information.

Have you ever noticed that? That "the satan" in the book of Job is never associated with the serpent of Genesis? The satan (not to be confused with the proper name Satan) is even among the sons of God in Job as well, in heaven with the Father.

It's similar to how Paul in Ephesians 4 quotes Psalm 68 but isn't actually saying the same thing.

Ephesians 4:8 NIV
[8] This is why it says: “When he ascended on high, he took many captives and gave gifts to his people.”

Psalms 68:18 NIV
[18] When you ascended on high, you took many captives; you received gifts from people, even from the rebellious— that you, Lord God, might dwell there.

These passages may sound alike. And the new testament authors sometimes harken back to the old testament, but the two should not be confused with one another. Just because a new testament author references the old testament, does not mean that he is retelling the story as Moses would have originally understood it.

Lastly,

Ex materia and ex nihilo creation are not mutually exclusive. God creating ex materia does not contradict John. Just as me creating a painting or a sculpture ex materia is also not a contradiction of prior ex nihilo creation. God can do both.

Rather the question really is a matter of What the author of Genesis intended to say. In its original context, as it was originally understood by its original audience and author.

It's not a question of subjective interpretations centered on New Testament authors centuries later and how they may or may not have viewed the original text.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Job 33:6

Well-Known Member
Jun 15, 2017
9,158
3,086
Hartford, Connecticut
✟349,690.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Day 1 starts like this.
In the beginning God created the earth - an earth without form (no topography) and void (empty). The Bible clearly says the earth was created here - in the beginning. Creation began with the earth (an earth that was without form and void).
What is your motivation for not accepting that? Be straight up. Why are you doing all you can to find an angle to not accept that everything was created approx 6000 years ago and took 6 days to complete?
Please answer that question.
No, God never creates with the spoken word in verse 1. There is no creating going on in the first verse that you've quoted. Verse 1 never says "And God said".

It simply says, that God created the heavens and the earth. And that's why verse 2 often begins with "And" or "Now". Because the second part of the sentence is, in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth, and the earth was formless and void.

The creation unfolds over the 6 days, the creation doesn't happen in verse 1 and then repeats itself over the 6 days.

Otherwise you end up with this weird contradiction where God creates the heavens and the earth in verse 1 but never actually speaks or creates with the spoken word, but then the rest of the six days of Genesis God is somehow not creating?

The creation doesn't happen twice, it happens over the 6 days and it doesn't begin in verse 1 it begins in verse 3. "And God said".

My motivation is that you're not reading what the Bible actually says.

Every single creation day begins with "And God said". Every single day. That's how God creates, with the spoken word.

And you are changing that by saying that God created outside of his framework that he uses.

God creates the heavens on day two, God creates the Earth on day 3. That's why it says "And God called the dry ground, Earth".

And that's why the Bible says that God created in 6 days. God didn't create the heavens and the earth in verse 1, all on the first day and then he went back and just reshaped a few things.

The creation are the events over the 6 days, each beginning with God speaking and each ending with evening and morning.

Genesis 1:1-3 NRSV
[1] In the beginning when God created the heavens and the earth, [2] the earth was a formless void and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters. [3] Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Platte

Well-Known Member
Jul 14, 2020
1,343
251
56
Virginia
✟59,827.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
No, God never creates with the spoken word in verse 1. There is no creating going on in the first verse that you've quoted. Verse 1 never says "And God said".

It simply says, that God created the heavens and the earth.
Weird you say there is no creating going on but then you say the verse says God created the heaven and the earth.
And that's why verse 2 often begins with "And" or "Now". Because the second part of the sentence is, in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth, and the earth was formless and void.

The creation unfolds over the 6 days, the creation doesn't happen in verse 1
Verse 1 says it is the beginning. Where God created the heaven and the earth. Pretty clear.
Confirmed in Exodus directly by God.
“For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭20‬:‭11‬
and then repeats itself over the 6 days.

Otherwise you end up with this weird contradiction where God creates the heavens and the earth in verse 1 but never actually speaks or creates with the spoken word, but then the rest of the six days of Genesis God is somehow not creating?

The creation doesn't happen twice, it happens over the 6 days and it doesn't begin in verse 1 it begins in verse 3.
Creation begins in Genesis 1. In the beginning God created the heaven and earth. Confirm part of the 6 days of creation in Exodus as I mentioned.
"And God said".

My motivation is that you're not reading what the Bible actually says.

Every single creation day begins with "And God said". Every single day. That's how God creates, with the spoken word.
God can created anyway He wants. He is not limited to only creating by the spoken word.
And you are changing that by saying that God created outside of his framework that he uses.
God is not limited to a framework.
God creates the heavens on day two, God creates the Earth on day 3. That's why it says "And God called the dry ground, Earth".
God created the earth in day. The ground being called the earth is not new and is even used today. Are you implying that the Seas are not part of the earth?
And that's why the Bible says that God created in 6 days. God didn't create the heavens and the earth in verse 1, all on the first day and then he went back and just reshaped a few things.
God.created the heaven and the earth on day 1. In the beginning just as it says in Genesis 1:1. Of course after he created the Earth he added to it. He added form. He add animals. He added plants. He added man.
The creation are the events over the 6 days, each beginning with God speaking and each ending with evening and morning.

Genesis 1:1-3 NRSV
[1] In the beginning when God created the heavens and the earth, [2] the earth was a formless void and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters. [3] Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.

No, God never creates with the spoken word in verse 1. There is no creating going on in the first verse that you've quoted. Verse 1 never says "And God said".

It simply says, that God created the heavens and the earth. And that's why verse 2 often begins with "And" or "Now". Because the second part of the sentence is, in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth, and the earth was formless and void.

The creation unfolds over the 6 days, the creation doesn't happen in verse 1 and then repeats itself over the 6 days.

Otherwise you end up with this weird contradiction where God creates the heavens and the earth in verse 1 but never actually speaks or creates with the spoken word, but then the rest of the six days of Genesis God is somehow not creating?

What does God say:
“For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭20‬:‭11‬ ‭
He says he created the heaven and the earth included in the 6 days. I’ll go by what God said directly to us.
The creation doesn't happen twice, it happens over the 6 days and it doesn't begin in verse 1 it begins in verse 3. "And God said".

My motivation is that you're not reading what the Bible actually says.
You won’t even say what your motivation is. Why won’t you. Are you trying to make the Bible match your Scientific views? If so just say so.
Every single creation day begins with "And God said". Every single day. That's how God creates, with the spoken word.
That is not true. The heaven and the earth were not created that way. He created many things not included with the spoken word
 
Upvote 0

David Lamb

Well-Known Member
May 30, 2024
2,915
1,529
76
Paignton
✟64,762.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
A. "Made" isn't clarified in the passage as ex materia or ex nihilo.

But more importantly,
B. The book of John isn't the book of Genesis.

The book of John was written many centuries after Genesis. Hundreds of years. By a different author. In a different place. A different time. A different cultural context.

Similar to how Satan in the book of Mathew is not "the satan" in the book of Job. These are different concepts from different books, written by different authors, that present different information.

Have you ever noticed that? That "the satan" in the book of Job is never associated with the serpent of Genesis? The satan (not to be confused with the proper name Satan) is even among the sons of God in Job as well, in heaven with the Father.

It's similar to how Paul in Ephesians 4 quotes Psalm 68 but isn't actually saying the same thing.

Ephesians 4:8 NIV
[8] This is why it says: “When he ascended on high, he took many captives and gave gifts to his people.”

Psalms 68:18 NIV
[18] When you ascended on high, you took many captives; you received gifts from people, even from the rebellious— that you, Lord God, might dwell there.

These passages may sound alike. And the new testament authors sometimes harken back to the old testament, but the two should not be confused with one another. Just because a new testament author references the old testament, does not mean that he is retelling the story as Moses would have originally understood it.

Lastly,

Ex materia and ex nihilo creation are not mutually exclusive. God creating ex materia does not contradict John. Just as me creating a painting or a sculpture ex materia is also not a contradiction of prior ex nihilo creation. God can do both.

Rather the question really is a matter of What the author of Genesis intended to say. In its original context, as it was originally understood by its original audience and author.

It's not a question of subjective interpretations centered on New Testament authors centuries later and how they may or may not have viewed the original text.
OK it is not specified whether ex nihilo, but that isn't necessary because John says that "all things were made by Him", so that doesn't allow for pre-existent material. I believe that we should view the bible as a whole, as it is God's revelation.
 
Upvote 0

Job 33:6

Well-Known Member
Jun 15, 2017
9,158
3,086
Hartford, Connecticut
✟349,690.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
OK it is not specified whether ex nihilo, but that isn't necessary because John says that "all things were made by Him", so that doesn't allow for pre-existent material. I believe that we should view the bible as a whole, as it is God's revelation.
Sure it does allow for pre existent things. In many ways. Ive made a pizza ex materia. Does that negate the truth that God made all things?
 
Upvote 0