HELLUCINATIONS

[Dan Perez]

Yes there is, it is ἁρπάζω (harpazó translated "caught up". We are "raptured" when we die because we leave our body behind. Paul did not even understand this. "3And I know that this man—whether in the body or out of it I do not know, but God knows— 4 was caught up to Paradise." (2 Corinthians 12)

Interesting how people claim to understand what Paul did not even understand.

And please show where the Greek RAPTURE is in the bible , as I have yet to see where it is written ?

dan p

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

And please show where the Greek RAPTURE is in the bible , as I have yet to see where it is written ?

dan p

In the Greek 2 Th 2:3, Paul used the the word ἀποστασία, to mean departure or disappearance, as in a rapture.

Here is the full 2 Th 2:3 in Greek: μή τις ὑμᾶς ἐξαπατήσῃ κατὰ μηδένα τρόπον· ὅτι ἐὰν μὴ ἔλθῃ ἡ ἀποστασία πρῶτον καὶ ἀποκαλυφθῇ ὁ ἄνθρωπος τῆς ἀνομίας, ὁ υἱὸς τῆς ἀπωλείας, Source: Greek New Testament: 2 Thessalonians: 2 Thessalonians Chapter 2

2 Thess 2:1 & 5 are about the rapture. That context applies to verse 3’s apostasia (disappearance). Therefore, in 2 Th 2:3, Paul was referring to the pre-Trib timing of the rapture.

KJV introduced "falling away" in 2 Th 2:3 in 1611. It was the KJV who very unethically edited the pre-Trib rapture out of the Bible in 1611. It is more than suspicious that KJV will not answer to this day, why they made such a sea change in 2 Th 2:3.

 

[Dan Perez]

In the Greek 2 Th 2:3, Paul used the the word ἀποστασία, to mean departure or disappearance, as in a rapture.

Here is the full 2 Th 2:3 in Greek: μή τις ὑμᾶς ἐξαπατήσῃ κατὰ μηδένα τρόπον· ὅτι ἐὰν μὴ ἔλθῃ ἡ ἀποστασία πρῶτον καὶ ἀποκαλυφθῇ ὁ ἄνθρωπος τῆς ἀνομίας, ὁ υἱὸς τῆς ἀπωλείας, Source: Greek New Testament: 2 Thessalonians: 2 Thessalonians Chapter 2

2 Thess 2:1 & 5 are about the rapture. That context applies to verse 3’s apostasia (disappearance). Therefore, in 2 Th 2:3, Paul was referring to the pre-Trib timing of the rapture.

KJV introduced "falling away" in 2 Th 2:3 in 1611. It was the KJV who very unethically edited the pre-Trib rapture out of the Bible in 1611. It is more than suspicious that KJV will not answer to this day, why they made such a sea change in 2 Th 2:3.

And I believe that Christ is COMING // PAROUSIA back to live in the God's Universe , as written in 1 Cor 6:2 and 3 .

And you have NOT shown where a Greek word for RAPTURE is written in the bible !!

And I know of 1 Thess 3:13-18 and am Pre- tribulation and 2 Thess 2:3 is the proof .

dan p

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

And I believe that Christ is COMING // PAROUSIA back to live in the God's Universe , as written in 1 Cor 6:2 and 3 .

And you have NOT shown where a Greek word for RAPTURE is written in the bible !!

And I know of 1 Thess 3:13-18 and am Pre- tribulation and 2 Thess 2:3 is the proof .

dan p

Dan, I don't claim "rapture" is in the Bible. It is a common term adopted as a synonym for harpazo. I use "rapture" because it's the first term I learned when seeking to learn about the snatching away that will occur.

What's important is there will be a snatching away of resurrected believers and living believers directly to Heaven upon 1 Th 4:16-17, which together will fulfill 1 Cor 15:52 and Rev 4:1.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

And I believe that Christ is COMING // PAROUSIA back to live in the God's Universe , as written in 1 Cor 6:2 and 3 .

And you have NOT shown where a Greek word for RAPTURE is written in the bible !!

And I know of 1 Thess 3:13-18 and am Pre- tribulation and 2 Thess 2:3 is the proof .

dan p

I want to share this with you. The pre-Trib snatching away is prophesied to occur upon Jesus' next return. The related prophecy doesn't say pre-Trib, but all the circumstances surrounding the snatching away only align with a pre-Trib context. Jesus' next return is governed by Acts 1:9-11.

In what "way" (Acts 1:11) did Jesus ascend? He ascended in the view of believers, only. His disciples were the only earthlings present at Jesus' ascension. Therefore, "the way" cited in Acts 1:11 must align with "the way" Jesus will next return. Jesus must next return by descending into the view of believers, only.

In 1 Th 4:16, Jesus descends (how far He descends is extremely limited by John 14:2-3 and Rev 4:1) and a trumpet sound is heard (Jesus' trumpet voice in Rev 4:1). A shout occurs (probably what is written in Rev 4:1 and Rev 11:12).

In 1 Th 4:17, we are instantly changed into our eternal bodies (1 Cor 15:52) and we, along with the newly resurrected dead in Christ, are instantly snatched away. It is important to note that we will not be able to see Jesus until after we pass through the heavenly clouds cited in verse 17. We will then meet Him in the air, and we will forever be with Him (the blessed hope in Titus 2:13).

I don't believer Jesus will be in immediate view after we pass through the heavenly clouds in 1 Th 4:17. I believe He will complete His descent soon after that point. He will gloriously descend into the view of believers, only, in total alignment with Acts 1:11.

Acts 1:11 cannot align with the 2A (2nd Advent). Jesus is on clouds and is instantly in view of the entire world of unbelievers (Matt 24:30 and Rev 1:7). That immediately disqualifies the 2A from being His next return. His next return is for the pre-Trib snatching away, only.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

If by "pre-Trib rapture" you mean Christians being removed from the earth before the tribulation of the Second Coming, where do the verses you mention say anything about that? They say:

“"Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.” (Re 3:10 NKJV)

Those words were to one local church. and the verse doesn't say that the members of that church will be removed from the world.

“After these things I looked, and behold, a door [standing] open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard [was] like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, "Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this."” (Re 4:1 NKJV)

This is being spoken to the apostle John. It says nothing about all Christians being removed from the earth.

Mr. Lamb, I want to share this with you. The pre-Trib snatching away is prophesied to occur upon Jesus' next return. The related prophecy doesn't say pre-Trib, but all the circumstances surrounding the snatching away only align with a pre-Trib context. Jesus' next return is governed by Acts 1:9-11.

In what "way" (Acts 1:11) did Jesus ascend? He ascended in the view of believers, only. His disciples were the only earthlings present at Jesus' ascension. Therefore, "the way" cited in Acts 1:11 must align with "the way" Jesus will next return. Jesus must next return by descending into the view of believers, only.

In 1 Th 4:16, Jesus descends (how far He descends is extremely limited by John 14:2-3 and Rev 4:1) and a trumpet sound is heard (Jesus' trumpet voice in Rev 4:1). A shout occurs (probably what is written in Rev 4:1 and Rev 11:12).

In 1 Th 4:17, we are instantly changed into our eternal bodies (1 Cor 15:52) and we, along with the newly resurrected dead in Christ (1 Th 4:16), are instantly snatched away. It is important to note that we will not be able to see Jesus until after we pass through the heavenly clouds cited in verse 17. We will then meet Him in the air, and we will forever be with Him (the blessed hope in Titus 2:13).

I don't believer Jesus will be in immediate view after we pass through the heavenly clouds in 1 Th 4:17. I believe He will complete His descent soon after that point. He will gloriously descend into the view of believers, only, in total alignment with Acts 1:11.

Acts 1:11 cannot align with the 2A (2nd Advent). Jesus is on clouds and is instantly in view of the entire world of unbelievers (Matt 24:30 and Rev 1:7). That immediately disqualifies the 2A from being His next return. Jesus' return in the 2A is to finally prove He is the King of kings and Lord of lords. His next return is for the pre-Trib snatching away, only.

God bless!

 

[David Lamb]

Mr. Lamb, I want to share this with you. The pre-Trib snatching away is prophesied to occur upon Jesus' next return. The related prophecy doesn't say pre-Trib, but all the circumstances surrounding the snatching away only align with a pre-Trib context. Jesus' next return is governed by Acts 1:9-11.

In what "way" (Acts 1:11) did Jesus ascend? He ascended in the view of believers, only. His disciples were the only earthlings present at Jesus' ascension. Therefore, "the way" cited in Acts 1:11 must align with "the way" Jesus will next return. Jesus must next return by descending into the view of believers, only.

In 1 Th 4:16, Jesus descends (how far He descends is extremely limited by John 14:2-3 and Rev 4:1) and a trumpet sound is heard (Jesus' trumpet voice in Rev 4:1). A shout occurs (probably what is written in Rev 4:1 and Rev 11:12).

In 1 Th 4:17, we are instantly changed into our eternal bodies (1 Cor 15:52) and we, along with the newly resurrected dead in Christ (1 Th 4:16), are instantly snatched away. It is important to note that we will not be able to see Jesus until after we pass through the heavenly clouds cited in verse 17. We will then meet Him in the air, and we will forever be with Him (the blessed hope in Titus 2:13).

I don't believer Jesus will be in immediate view after we pass through the heavenly clouds in 1 Th 4:17. I believe He will complete His descent soon after that point. He will gloriously descend into the view of believers, only, in total alignment with Acts 1:11.

Acts 1:11 cannot align with the 2A (2nd Advent). Jesus is on clouds and is instantly in view of the entire world of unbelievers (Matt 24:30 and Rev 1:7). That immediately disqualifies the 2A from being His next return. Jesus' return in the 2A is to finally prove He is the King of kings and Lord of lords. His next return is for the pre-Trib snatching away, only.

God bless!

Thanks for the reply. Jesus making two returns is clearly something you firmly believe. I am sorry but I don't. I don't see any bible passage teaching a second and a third coming, and the end of the world at the last day will involve the taking of unrepentant sinners to hell and Christians to heaven. Jesus said:

“"And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."” (Mt 25:46 NKJV)

He didn't say, "These shall stay here on earth for a time, and the righteous will go into eternal life."

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Thanks for the reply. Jesus making two returns is clearly something you firmly believe. I am sorry but I don't. I don't see any bible passage teaching a second and a third coming, and the end of the world at the last day will involve the taking of unrepentant sinners to heel and Christians to heaven. Jesus said:

“"And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."” (Mt 25:46 NKJV)

He didn't say, "These shall stay here on earth for a time, and the righteous will go into eternal life."

Mr. Lamb, Jesus has returned several times. He walked in the Garden of Eden (Gen 3:8); He wrestled with Jacob (Gen 32:22-32); John 20:17 (NIV): Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’” ----- Jesus ascended after His resurrection and returned to stay for 40 more days before ascending into Heaven in Acts 1:9-10.

Jesus appeared to Saul on the road to Damascus. I'm not saying He was there in person, but He appeared to Saul.

Jesus has returned many times. The Second Coming is exclusively to prove He and He alone is the King of kings and Lord of lords. Then comes Armageddon, the judgment of the sheep and goats, the Millennial Kingdom, Satan is cast into the lake of fire, the GWTJ, and the glorious NHNE.

He comes for His Church body in the rapture: 1 Th 4:16-17, along with 1 Cor 15:52 and Rev 4:1. He remains unseen by the unbelieving world below during the entire time of the rapture to fulfill Acts 1:11. He's hidden by heavenly clouds the whole time, to the folks on Earth. The rapture takes about two nanoseconds. We are then in heavenly clouds, soon meeting Jesus face to face. What a glorious moment!

Your reference in Matt 25 is about the judgment of the sheep and goats. The goats are the unbelieving survivors of the Trib. The sheep are those who are gathered in Matt 24:31, 40-41.

 

[AV1611VET]

Thanks for the reply. Jesus making two returns is clearly something you firmly believe. I am sorry but I don't.

QV please:

 

[David Lamb]

Mr. Lamb, Jesus has returned several times. He walked in the Garden of Eden (Gen 3:8); He wrestled with Jacob (Gen 32:22-32); John 20:17 (NIV): Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’” ----- Jesus ascended after His resurrection and returned to stay for 40 more days before ascending into Heaven in Acts 1:9-10.

Jesus appeared to Saul on the road to Damascus. I'm not saying He was there in person, but He appeared to Saul.

Jesus has returned many times. The Second Coming is exclusively to prove He and He alone is the King of kings and Lord of lords. Then comes Armageddon, the judgment of the sheep and goats, the Millennial Kingdom, Satan is cast into the lake of fire, the GWTJ, and the glorious NHNE.

He comes for His Church body in the rapture: 1 Th 4:16-17, along with 1 Cor 15:52 and Rev 4:1. He remains unseen by the unbelieving world below during the entire time of the rapture to fulfill Acts 1:11. He's hidden by heavenly clouds the whole time, to the folks on Earth. The rapture takes about two nanoseconds. We are then in heavenly clouds, soon meeting Jesus face to face. What a glorious moment!

Your reference in Matt 25 is about the judgment of the sheep and goats. The goats are the unbelieving survivors of the Trib. The sheep are those who are gathered in Matt 24:31, 40-41.

Usually when we talk about Jesus Christ returning, we are surely thinking about something happening after His coming by incarnation, not His pre-incarnate appearances, theophanies, in the Old Testament.

I don't understand Jesus as saying that He ascended twice either. And the sheep and goats division says nothing about the goats being left on earth for a period of time while the sheep are already in heaven.


Thanks for your reply though, even though I don't agree

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Usually when we talk about Jesus Christ returning, we are surely thinking about something happening after His coming by incarnation, not His pre-incarnate appearances, theophanies, in the Old Testament.

I don't understand Jesus as saying that He ascended twice either. And the sheep and goats division says nothing about the goats being left on earth for a period of time while the sheep are already in heaven.


Thanks for your reply though, even though I don't agree

None of this is OT:

Jesus spoke with Mary Magdalene at the tomb of His resurrection. He told her He was going to Heaven. That was a clear ascension to Heaven after His resurrection and after His short talk with Mary Magdalene (John 20:11-17).

John 20:19 (NIV): On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jewish leaders, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!”

That was Jesus after returning from Heaven, in the midst of His 40 days on Earth, after His resurrection. He was seen by hundreds of eyewitnesses. Jesus thereby returned to Earth.

Acts 1:9-11 (NIV): After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.10 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11 “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

Jesus returned to Heaven in Acts 1:9-10. That was another ascension after the OT.

There you have an ascension after His resurrection; His return to Earth for 40 days; and another ascension to Heaven in Acts 1:9-11. All those occurred after the OT.

The 2A (2nd Advent) will occur in view of the entire world (Matt 24:30 and Rev 1:7).

Acts 1:11 (NIV): “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

When Jesus ascended in Acts 1:9-10, the way He ascended was in the view of believers, only. Acts:1:11 says ... Jesus ... will come back in the same way you have seen him go into Heaven.

Jesus must next return in the view of believers, only. That is coincidentally what He will do in 1 Th 4:17. We ascend through clouds to meet Jesus in the air. Heavenly clouds keep the world below from being able to see us and Jesus. Jesus thereby have fulfilled Acts 1:11, having returned in the view of believers, only. That is the only verse where He will come back in that way. In no way does that occur in the 2A. Matt 24:30 and Rev 1:7 make sure of that. Therefore, there is a return prior to the 2A. In fact, it will occur about seven years beforehand (before Daniel's 70th week, in Daniel 9:27).

Also, this can't be about the NHNE. The NHNE is brought to us. Rev 21:2 (NIV): I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.

In 1 Th 4:17, we are taken to Heaven. In John 14:3, we are taken to Heaven. That is made obvious by John 14:3 (NKJV): And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.

Where is Jesus now?

 

[JulieB67]

QV please:

This chart means nothing in the way of proving a pretrib rapture. Every verse describes "the coming of the Lord" -singular as in one. He does not return two more times. He does not come back two more times.

On the pretrib rapture side

1. Luke 21 is the same as Matthew 24 and

The entire chapter lays out the signs and back up just a few verses-

Luke 21:34 "And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares."

Meaning the day will come to everyone.

Luke 21:35 "For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

Luke 21:36 "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."

This does not mean removed from the earth. The point is as Christ states the one that endures, the same shall be saved. And to also be able to stand before him when he returns. It's not about flying away. It's about still standing.

If one even goes further back-

Luke 21:31 "So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is night at hand."

The generation during that time will see all of those things come to pass that he laid out. They aren't supposed to be flying away. They will be here to see those things. And when that generation sees those things they know that the kingdom of God is near.


Luke 21:28 "And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh."

He's talking to the disciples who are technically the first Christians so this message is relevant.

2. 1st Thes 4:13, the original subject is what will happen to their passed away loved ones. This was not meant to teach about a pretrib rapture which is why the wording is different than other places. It's about the passed away loved ones and Paul is trying to comfort them.

I Thessalonians 4:13 "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope."

I Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

So once again, this list means nothing and is false. We see here that Christ brings those "with him". He's not coming alone for just the saints. And common sense alone tells us that why would he bring all of these back with him if everyone was leaving. He wouldn't.

I Thessalonians 4:15 "For we say unto you, by the word of our Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent in no wisethem which are asleep."

It's a coming not a going. These words -coming of the Lord" are always used to describe the Second Coming/Advent.

3. John 14:3, has to be taken all in context. Mansion in the Greek is simply mone, a resting dwelling place and Christ states he will not leave us comfortless.

John 14:3 "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto Myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."

He will return again but he will receive us unto Him. There's not one verse in this passage that states anyone is going to heaven.

If we read the entire passage it ends with this -


John 14:23 "Jesus answered and said unto him, "If a man love Me, he will keep My words: and My Father will love him, and We will come unto him, and make Our abode with him."

Abode is the very same Greek word as Mansion -mone.

4. Starts out completely false- It states he returns to the clouds and that is not scriptural.

I Thessalonians 4:17 "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

We just read in verse 14 that Christ is bringing those that have passed away with him and in verse 17 will will all be caught up together (changed in an instant) in those clouds to meet Christ.

Also, Revelation states he comes with clouds and every eye shall see him.

5. Is also false. Nowhere does it state in that verse that no one sees him. Why aren't you posting the actual verses to back this up?

I Corinthians 15:51 "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,"

I Corinthians 15:52 "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."


6. Titus 2:13 "Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ;"

Looking for that blessed hope does not prove a pretrib rapture it just means we should all be watching for the signs that Christ and others have laid out. As Luke states once those things have come to pass whoever is here at that time can raise their heads because their redemption is near.

On the other side

1. Yes, Christ's second coming occurs after the tribulation.

2.-Yes, we've just seen that in the verses that you claim to be about a pretrib rapture are in fact about those that Christ will bring with him.

Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Very same event in Jude and Revelation and here in Thes 4:14.

Here's another that proves Christians will be here


I Thessalonians 3:13 "To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints."

To the end, (As Christ states) that you may be unblameable before God at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all of saints. This would not even be possible or make sense if someone were rapture away years before. Not true.

3. Again, we've just went over the verses you claim to be about a pretrib rapture are in fact about the Second Coming in which he brings the saints with him.

4. Yes he returns to the earth, true.

5. And yes, every eye will see him. There's not one verse that states he comes in secret.

6. It will be a blessed day for those that have endured to the end. Wrath is not the same thing as tribulation. And God can and will keep over his own.


Hebrews 9:28 "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for Him shall He appear the second time without sin, unto salvation."

This verse makes it so simple. Along with Christ's teachings in the gospels.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

This chart means nothing in the way of proving a pretrib rapture. Every verse describes "the coming of the Lord" -singular as in one. He does not return two more times. He does not come back two more times.

On the pretrib rapture side

1. Luke 21 is the same as Matthew 24 and

The entire chapter lays out the signs and back up just a few verses-

Luke 21:34 "And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares."

Meaning the day will come to everyone.

Luke 21:35 "For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

Luke 21:36 "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."

This does not mean removed from the earth. The point is as Christ states the one that endures, the same shall be saved. And to also be able to stand before him when he returns. It's not about flying away. It's about still standing.

If one even goes further back-

Luke 21:31 "So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is night at hand."

The generation during that time will see all of those things come to pass that he laid out. They aren't supposed to be flying away. They will be here to see those things. And when that generation sees those things they know that the kingdom of God is near.


Luke 21:28 "And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh."

He's talking to the disciples who are technically the first Christians so this message is relevant.

2. 1st Thes 4:13, the original subject is what will happen to their passed away loved ones. This was not meant to teach about a pretrib rapture which is why the wording is different than other places. It's about the passed away loved ones and Paul is trying to comfort them.

I Thessalonians 4:13 "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope."

I Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

So once again, this list means nothing and is false. We see here that Christ brings those "with him". He's not coming alone for just the saints. And common sense alone tells us that why would he bring all of these back with him if everyone was leaving. He wouldn't.

I Thessalonians 4:15 "For we say unto you, by the word of our Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent in no wisethem which are asleep."

It's a coming not a going. These words -coming of the Lord" are always used to describe the Second Coming/Advent.

3. John 14:3, has to be taken all in context. Mansion in the Greek is simply mone, a resting dwelling place and Christ states he will not leave us comfortless.

John 14:3 "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto Myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."

He will return again but he will receive us unto Him. There's not one verse in this passage that states anyone is going to heaven.

If we read the entire passage it ends with this -


John 14:23 "Jesus answered and said unto him, "If a man love Me, he will keep My words: and My Father will love him, and We will come unto him, and make Our abode with him."

Abode is the very same Greek word as Mansion -mone.

4. Starts out completely false- It states he returns to the clouds and that is not scriptural.

I Thessalonians 4:17 "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

We just read in verse 14 that Christ is bringing those that have passed away with him and in verse 17 will will all be caught up together (changed in an instant) in those clouds to meet Christ.

Also, Revelation states he comes with clouds and every eye shall see him.

5. Is also false. Nowhere does it state in that verse that no one sees him. Why aren't you posting the actual verses to back this up?

I Corinthians 15:51 "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,"

I Corinthians 15:52 "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."


6. Titus 2:13 "Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ;"

Looking for that blessed hope does not prove a pretrib rapture it just means we should all be watching for the signs that Christ and others have laid out. As Luke states once those things have come to pass whoever is here at that time can raise their heads because their redemption is near.

On the other side

1. Yes, Christ's second coming occurs after the tribulation.

2.-Yes, we've just seen that in the verses that you claim to be about a pretrib rapture are in fact about those that Christ will bring with him.

Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Very same event in Jude and Revelation and here in Thes 4:14.

Here's another that proves Christians will be here


I Thessalonians 3:13 "To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints."

To the end, (As Christ states) that you may be unblameable before God at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all of saints. This would not even be possible or make sense if someone were rapture away years before. Not true.

3. Again, we've just went over the verses you claim to be about a pretrib rapture are in fact about the Second Coming in which he brings the saints with him.

4. Yes he returns to the earth, true.

5. And yes, every eye will see him. There's not one verse that states he comes in secret.

6. It will be a blessed day for those that have endured to the end. Wrath is not the same thing as tribulation. And God can and will keep over his own.


Hebrews 9:28 "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for Him shall He appear the second time without sin, unto salvation."

This verse makes it so simple. Along with Christ's teachings in the gospels.

Julie, Luke 21:34-36 (NIV): “But watch yourselves lest your hearts be weighed down with dissipation and drunkenness and cares of this life, and that day come upon you suddenly like a trap. 35 For it will come upon all who dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 But stay awake at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are going to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

First, references to those "who dwell on the face of the whole earth" are, in the context of the Trib, references only to unbelievers. Luke warns in verses 34-35 that we need to watch ourselves that we not behave like unbelievers. For if we do, we can miss the pre-Trib rapture. Verse 36 proves that if we refrain from such behavior. we can "escape all these things that are going to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man."

Standing before Jesus is what we'll do in 1 Th 4:17. All living believers and the resurrected believers will be raptured straight to Heaven.

You cannot invalidate the pre-Trib rapture. Jesus promised it in Rev 3:10 with His words, "I will keep you FROM the hour of trial." That's why 1 Th 4:17 will go straight to Heaven. Rev 4:1 backs up that claim.

Please note about Rev 4:1 that Apostle John never left the island of Patmos during the entire time he was receiving his vision of Revelation. An angel showed John everything he heard and saw. That is proven by Rev 22:8 (ESV): I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me,

Rev 4:1 is a future event. It's the pre-Trib rapture of the Church.

 

[JulieB67]

First, references to those "who dwell on the face of the whole earth" are, in the context of the Trib, references only to unbelievers.

You keep stating this but dwelling on the earth has nothing to do with who believes or who doesn't. Dwelling is simply that -dwelling/living on the earth. The Greek -inhabit, etc. Unless you can prove dwelling on the earth means something different than you do not have a valid point. And you keep glossing over the other letters to the churches which pretty much states they will be here during that time.

Standing before Jesus is what we'll do in 1 Th 4:17. All living believers and the resurrected believers will be raptured straight to Heaven.

Again, you have to provide the scripture that believers will be raptured straight to heaven. You and others have never been able to do so.

You cannot invalidate the pre-Trib rapture. Jesus promised it in Rev 3:10 with His words, "I will keep you FROM the hour of trial." That's why 1 Th 4:17 will go straight to Heaven. Rev 4:1 backs up that claim.

We have told you repeatedly what the Greek word for "keep" is. You choose to ignore it to hold onto your beliefs. Jeffrey.


I pulled apart that entire chart with scripture. Something that pretribs can not do.

Even a simple statement as point number 5 -"Christ is not seen" is not found anywhere in scripture.

We have to let go of these preconceived notions and let the scriptures simply speak for themselves. I was at one time where you were at but the truth is there to see when we stop trying to separate the Second Coming into two events. I posted the scriptures that state he does not come alone. I posted that anytime you see the words "coming of the Lord" its talking about the Second Coming. No one is leaving. It's his Second Coming.

When he comes again he will then receive us to Himself.

 

[AV1611VET]

This chart means nothing in the way of proving a pretrib rapture. Every verse describes "the coming of the Lord" -singular as in one. He does not return two more times. He does not come back two more times.

Christ's coming is in two phases: the Rapture and the Return.

At the Rapture, He comes in the clouds and we meet Him in the air.

At the Return -- seven years later -- He sets foot on the earth.

Specifically the Mount of Olives, which splits in half.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

You keep stating this but dwelling on the earth has nothing to do with who believes or who doesn't. Dwelling is simply that -dwelling/living on the earth. The Greek -inhabit, etc. Unless you can prove dwelling on the earth means something different than you do not have a valid point. And you keep glossing over the other letters to the churches which pretty much states they will be here during that time.

Again, you have to provide the scripture that believers will be raptured straight to heaven. You and others have never been able to do so.

We have told you repeatedly what the Greek word for "keep" is. You choose to ignore it to hold onto your beliefs. Jeffrey.


I pulled apart that entire chart with scripture. Something that pretribs can not do.

Even a simple statement as point number 5 -"Christ is not seen" is not found anywhere in scripture.

We have to let go of these preconceived notions and let the scriptures simply speak for themselves. I was at one time where you were at but the truth is there to see when we stop trying to separate the Second Coming into two events. I posted the scriptures that state he does not come alone. I posted that anytime you see the words "coming of the Lord" its talking about the Second Coming. No one is leaving. It's his Second Coming.

When he comes again he will then receive us to Himself.

Julie, the phrase in question is "keep from." Jesus said, "I will keep you from the hour of trial." From the Merriam Webster Dictionary, "keep from" can mean "to prevent or stop (someone or something) from doing or experiencing (something)." That is exactly what Jesus means in Rev 3:10. He will prevent us from experiencing the Trib. Source: Definition of KEEP from

Have you noticed the two groups delineated in Rev 3:10? "You" is a reference to believers, only. The word "those" is a reference to unbelievers, only. They are cited, in full, as "those who dwell on the earth." Let's look at some Trib-related verses with that description.

Rev 6:10 (ESV): They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” ----- Those crying out are martyrs. They ultimately will become part of the GM. The main points are those on Earth at that time are new converts in the Trib, who are routinely martyred, and "those who dwell on the earth," who prove to be ravenous murderers. Naturally, they are unbelievers. So, that verse proves the villainous nature of "those who dwell on the earth," and that some become saved, and they are martyred. That is who is on Earth in the Trib, other than protected servants of God, as in the 144k (Rev 7:3-4) and the 2W (Rev 11:3).Again, there are no believers, other than new converts, in Rev 6:10.

Here's another: Rev 11:10 (ESV): and those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and make merry and exchange presents, because these two prophets had been a torment to those who dwell on the earth. ----- Again, "those who dwell on the earth" during the Trib, are degraded unbelievers.

We believers will not enter the Trib. Jesus said so in Rev 3:10.

Rev 4:1 is the pre-Trib rapture of the Church, straight to Heaven. Again, Apostle John never left the island of Patmos during the entire time he received his vision of Revelation. He was shown everything by an angel, and Rev 22:8 proves it.

 

[Der Alte]

And please show where the Greek RAPTURE is in the bible , as I have yet to see where it is written ?

dan p

The word rapture came from the Latin version "caught" up is raptu.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

The word rapture came from the Latin version "caught" up is raptu.

Rapture is not in the Bible. It's been adopted as a synonym for harpazo. Rev 4:1 is when the Church is snatched up to Heaven.

 

[JulieB67]

Christ's coming is in two phases: the Rapture and the Return.

Nowhere in scripture does it state that Christ's Second Coming is in two phases. Pretrib believers have to split them into two phases for their doctrine to work. Those that believe Christ returns only one more time don't have to do that. We simply let the scriptures speak for themselves. And when we do, we see he returns only one more time.

At the Rapture, He comes in the clouds and we meet Him in the air.

He comes with clouds and every eye shall see him. Those who are alive at that time will be caught up together with the others as we "meet Christ" in the air, breathable air. Not air as in sky. Different Greek word altogether. Our bodies will be changed in an instant.

Specifically the Mount of Olives,

He left on the Mount of Olives and he will return there yes.

 

[JulieB67]

" From the Merriam Webster Dictionary,

Why are you bringing up this dictionary. When we go with the word in the Greek we see it's the very same word as you know that Christ said in his prayer. He proved that people cannot be removed from the earth but still could be "kept" from evil.

He will prevent us from experiencing the Trib.

You're really reaching there. No scripture states that.

Keep -tereo -
hold fast, keep
From teros (a watch; perhaps akin to theoreo); to guard (from loss or injury, properly, by keeping the eye upon;

Again, it does not mean removed from the earth. Christ proves that himself.

Let's look at some Trib-related verses with that description.

That would be impossible seeing how there aren't any.

Rev 6:10 (ESV): They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” ----- Those crying out are martyrs. They ultimately will become part of the GM. The main points are those on Earth at that time are new converts in the Trib, who are routinely martyred, and "those who dwell on the earth," who prove to be ravenous murderers. Naturally, they are unbelievers. So, that verse proves the villainous nature of "those who dwell on the earth," and that some become saved, and they are martyred. That is who is on Earth in the Trib, other than protected servants of God, as in the 144k (Rev 7:3-4) and the 2W (Rev 11:3).Again, there are no believers, other than new converts, in Rev 6:10.

Here's another: Rev 11:10 (ESV): and those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and make merry and exchange presents, because these two prophets had been a torment to those who dwell on the earth. ----- Again, "those who dwell on the earth" during the Trib, are degraded unbelievers.

These verses prove nothing. in Revelation 11 after the two witnesses resurrect, the remnant will give glory because they know their time/redemption has arrived. They are also dwelling on the earth and are most certainly not evil. They can lift up their heads and know it's near. These are the ones that remain and are alive when Christ returns as Paul states.

Have you ever looked up the Greek word for remain as utilized in 1st Thes 4:17

I Thessalonians 4:17 "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

Greek word meno-abide, continue, dwell, remain

The word for remnant - From leipo; a remainder -- remnant.

Again, the remnant are those that are alive and remain when Christ returns.

We see in verse 15, the seventh which is the last trump sounds and that's it. The kingdoms on earth will become Christ's kingdoms.

Naturally, they are unbelievers. So, that verse proves the villainous nature of "those who dwell on the earth," and that some become saved,

There will be believers during the tribulation -their names are already written in the book of life. They
will not worship Satan/Antichrist/thebeast.

Christ even tells us that some will be thrown into prison by the devil. They will have tribulation 10 days but if they are faithful until the end they will receive a crown. Meaning they did not cave. That letter is to a Christian church. They are believers.

We believers will not enter the Trib. Jesus said so in Rev 3:10.

Already explained about the word "keep" and you once again are glossing over the other letters to the churches.

Rev 4:1 is the pre-Trib rapture of the Church, straight to Heaven.

Only that's not what the scripture states.

John is on the Spirit on the Lord's Day and told to write about the past, present and future. Nothing to do with a pretrib rapture of the church.