Can We Sin in Heaven?

[PastorKeith]

I am curious of your position. Many Christians would argue that God gives us free will, and that without free will, we would be mindless robots, and that is not a true expression of love.

So when we go to eternal Heaven, here on the new Earth, after the battle of Armageddon and after the great throne judgement, will we have the free will to sin or do evil?

This question seems absurd, but I have heard only two answers.

1) We will not want to sin, because we will have renewed bodies free of our fleshly desires.
Not wanting to sin, doesn't mean we won't be able to sin.... does it?

2) There will be no choice to sin, like a buffet of good things to eat, but no bad things.
This seems odd, as we know that before Adam sinned in the Garden, Lucifer had already sinned against God in Heaven.

What are your thoughts?

 

[KevinT]

I think sin has two components: 1) wrong-doing, and 2) resistance to correction.

For the first part, wrong-doing, this could also be called ignorance, or perhaps even immaturity. A child may not pronounce all their words correctly, and they might have a lisp. We know that as they grow this usually goes away, but for the time being, they are not doing things correctly. Likewise in heaven, I believe that we will every be learning more from God, and increasing in our ability and knowledge and love. If we were to graph this like a financial chart, the line will be ever headed upward. So in heaven, we will ever be putting aside foolishness, and increasing in God's wisdom

For the second part, resistance to correction (rebellion), this is where things really go south. God seems ever willing to set us back on the right path. Like the father of the prodigal son, God wants to take us where we are and help us improve. But if we refuse to admit we are wrong or we resist His attempts to guide us, then we are unable to progress. And this can lead to our destruction. Like one pleading with people on a beach to flee an impending tsunami, God does his best to save us. If we refused to listen, we bring destruction on ourselves.

To directly answer your question, I feel that we will not want to sin in either way. 1) why would we refuse a better way? If someone shows me how to be twice as effective at something I want, why would I ignore it? I believe we will still have free will, but we will have an understanding that lets us follow good advice. And regarding rebellion, I believe that is why God has let our earth run its course, as an experiment that will show what happens when His commands are ignored. Eve disobeyed God, and everyone can see the outcome. Would anyone in their right mind want to go down that path again?

tldr: We will have free will, but because God has allowed consequences to play out, everyone will WANT to follow His guidance.

What do you think?

Best wishes.

KT

 

[Vambram]

I believe that in Heaven, we will not be able to sin. Yes, we shall still have free will. However, the Sin nature or what is also called the Flesh will not be within us anymore after our souls and spirits leave this earth when our bodies die. Therefore, without the Selfish Sin nature within our souls, our spirits, I praise the Lord God that we will not be able to sin.

 

[PastorKeith]

I think sin has two components: 1) wrong-doing, and 2) resistance to correction.

For the first part, wrong-doing, this could also be called ignorance, or perhaps even immaturity. A child may not pronounce all their words correctly, and they might have a lisp. We know that as they grow this usually goes away, but for the time being, they are not doing things correctly. Likewise in heaven, I believe that we will every be learning more from God, and increasing in our ability and knowledge and love. If we were to graph this like a financial chart, the line will be ever headed upward. So in heaven, we will ever be putting aside foolishness, and increasing in God's wisdom

For the second part, resistance to correction (rebellion), this is where things really go south. God seems ever willing to set us back on the right path. Like the father of the prodigal son, God wants to take us where we are and help us improve. But if we refuse to admit we are wrong or we resist His attempts to guide us, then we are unable to progress. And this can lead to our destruction. Like one pleading with people on a beach to flee an impending tsunami, God does his best to save us. If we refused to listen, we bring destruction on ourselves.

To directly answer your question, I feel that we will not want to sin in either way. 1) why would we refuse a better way? If someone shows me how to be twice as effective at something I want, why would I ignore it? I believe we will still have free will, but we will have an understanding that lets us follow good advice. And regarding rebellion, I believe that is why God has let our earth run its course, as an experiment that will show what happens when His commands are ignored. Eve disobeyed God, and everyone can see the outcome. Would anyone in their right mind want to go down that path again?

tldr: We will have free will, but because God has allowed consequences to play out, everyone will WANT to follow His guidance.

What do you think?

Best wishes.

KT

Interesting thoughts, but it seems to me, if we have free will but just choose a better way, then the thought of the bad way would still be there for consideration, just not acted upon. Then we go back to the Bible, where Jesus tells us if we look on a woman with lustful thoughts, we have already committed adultery. So it appears, even the thought of doing wrong, even if we choose to do right every time, is still problematic.

One thing we do know, there is no plan for dealing with sin after the great throne of judgement.... at least no plan that has been revealed to us.

 

[PastorKeith]

I believe that in Heaven, we will not be able to sin. Yes, we shall still have free will. However, the Sin nature or what is also called the Flesh will not be within us anymore after our souls and spirits leave this earth when our bodies die. Therefore, without the Selfish Sin nature within our souls, our spirits, I praise the Lord God that we will not be able to sin.

We do know Lucifer sinned in Heaven against God, without a sin nature. Along with a third of the Angelic hosts. Maybe the rules for angels are different then men. Not sure.

 

[Vambram]

We do know Lucifer sinned in Heaven against God, without a sin nature. Along with a third of the Angelic hosts. Maybe the rules for angels are different then men. Not sure.

God's word doesn't speak very much about the souls and spirits of angels and demons. We know that Christ died and rose from death to forgive and save humans, not angelic beings. In the Bible, there are not any examples of angels sinning after Lucifer and a third of the angelic hosts sinned against the Lord God.

 

[Offline4Better.]

I am curious of your position. Many Christians would argue that God gives us free will, and that without free will, we would be mindless robots, and that is not a true expression of love.

So when we go to eternal Heaven, here on the new Earth, after the battle of Armageddon and after the great throne judgement, will we have the free will to sin or do evil?

This question seems absurd, but I have heard only two answers.

1) We will not want to sin, because we will have renewed bodies free of our fleshly desires.
Not wanting to sin, doesn't mean we won't be able to sin.... does it?

2) There will be no choice to sin, like a buffet of good things to eat, but no bad things.
This seems odd, as we know that before Adam sinned in the Garden, Lucifer had already sinned against God in Heaven.

What are your thoughts?

Alright, let me update my artificial intelligence software, and I will plug this question into an offline, privately run, local AI on my laptop. It will take around 30 minutes to answer the question, as my computer is a little old. The AI is hooked up to over a dozen theological documents, from Protestant, Catholic and Orthodox denominations.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I am curious of your position. Many Christians would argue that God gives us free will, and that without free will, we would be mindless robots, and that is not a true expression of love.

So when we go to eternal Heaven, here on the new Earth, after the battle of Armageddon and after the great throne judgement, will we have the free will to sin or do evil?

This question seems absurd, but I have heard only two answers.

1) We will not want to sin, because we will have renewed bodies free of our fleshly desires.
Not wanting to sin, doesn't mean we won't be able to sin.... does it?

2) There will be no choice to sin, like a buffet of good things to eat, but no bad things.
This seems odd, as we know that before Adam sinned in the Garden, Lucifer had already sinned against God in Heaven.

What are your thoughts?

My thoughts? Hmmm. My thoughts about Eternal Glory in Christ are generically geared to the hope of being able to transcend our corrupted and limited human nature.

In the realm of Eternity, I assume we'll no longer even have a desire to sin, and I for one am greatly looking forward to that oncoming possibility ...

 

[Offline4Better.]

Alright, here is what the machine had to say:


In addressing Pastor Keith's question about free will and its presence or absence in eternal heaven from a Biblical and theological perspective, it is essential to consider various Christian traditions including Catholicism, Orthodoxy, and Protestantism.

From a Biblical standpoint, several passages shed light on this topic. In 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Paul states that "the wicked" will not inherit the kingdom of God; this implies that they would not have the choice to sin in heaven because their nature is inherently wicked and opposed to God. On the other hand, Revelation 21:4 suggests that God will wipe away every tear from our eyes, and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow nor crying, for these things are passed away; this passage implies a state of complete righteousness where sinning would not occur due to the transformed nature of believers.

Theologically, the Augustinian perspective emphasizes that people cannot become Christians by their own wills but only through divine grace (Needham, 1997). In eternal heaven, this view suggests that sinners have been freed from their slavery to sin and are no longer inclined towards it due to the transforming power of Christ's grace. Yet, free-will remains in a limited sense since our will is still active in choosing good over evil (Needham, 1997).

Another important perspective comes from Baptist theology, which argues that God created Adam with a free will to choose between good and evil courses of action. In eternal heaven, believers are freed from their sinful desires but retain this free-will in choosing goodness (Helwys, 2009).

To answer Pastor Keith's question specifically, both perspectives suggest that there would be no choice to sin in heaven due to the transformed nature of believers and the absence of temptations or opportunities for sin. However, it is important to note that free-will remains as a capacity to choose good over evil, but its use will not lead to sin since all desires will be oriented towards God's perfect love and righteousness.


References: Needham, N. R. (1997). 2000 Years of Christ’s Power, Vol. 1
Helwys, T. B., & Smith, J. M. (2009). The First Baptist Treatise on Predestination. Journal for Baptist Theology & Ministry

 

[PastorKeith]

Alright, here is what the machine had to say:


In addressing Pastor Keith's question about free will and its presence or absence in eternal heaven from a Biblical and theological perspective, it is essential to consider various Christian traditions including Catholicism, Orthodoxy, and Protestantism.

From a Biblical standpoint, several passages shed light on this topic. In 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Paul states that "the wicked" will not inherit the kingdom of God; this implies that they would not have the choice to sin in heaven because their nature is inherently wicked and opposed to God. On the other hand, Revelation 21:4 suggests that God will wipe away every tear from our eyes, and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow nor crying, for these things are passed away; this passage implies a state of complete righteousness where sinning would not occur due to the transformed nature of believers.

Theologically, the Augustinian perspective emphasizes that people cannot become Christians by their own wills but only through divine grace (Needham, 1997). In eternal heaven, this view suggests that sinners have been freed from their slavery to sin and are no longer inclined towards it due to the transforming power of Christ's grace. Yet, free-will remains in a limited sense since our will is still active in choosing good over evil (Needham, 1997).

Another important perspective comes from Baptist theology, which argues that God created Adam with a free will to choose between good and evil courses of action. In eternal heaven, believers are freed from their sinful desires but retain this free-will in choosing goodness (Helwys, 2009).

To answer Pastor Keith's question specifically, both perspectives suggest that there would be no choice to sin in heaven due to the transformed nature of believers and the absence of temptations or opportunities for sin. However, it is important to note that free-will remains as a capacity to choose good over evil, but its use will not lead to sin since all desires will be oriented towards God's perfect love and righteousness.


References: Needham, N. R. (1997). 2000 Years of Christ’s Power, Vol. 1
Helwys, T. B., & Smith, J. M. (2009). The First Baptist Treatise on Predestination. Journal for Baptist Theology & Ministry

"Fascinating" - Spock, Science Officer, USS Enterprise

 

[Offline4Better.]

"Fascinating" - Spock, Science Officer, USS Enterprise

Woo, I love Star Trek. Watched TNG in 2013 or 2014, TOS in 2014, Voyager in 2015 or so, ENT in 2017 and finally six of seven seasons through of DS9 in 2024. And yes, artificial intelligence is fascinating stuff.


"Fascinating" Compilation - Spock (duration = 90 seconds)

 

[Gregory Thompson]

I am curious of your position. Many Christians would argue that God gives us free will, and that without free will, we would be mindless robots, and that is not a true expression of love.

So when we go to eternal Heaven, here on the new Earth, after the battle of Armageddon and after the great throne judgement, will we have the free will to sin or do evil?

This question seems absurd, but I have heard only two answers.

1) We will not want to sin, because we will have renewed bodies free of our fleshly desires.
Not wanting to sin, doesn't mean we won't be able to sin.... does it?

2) There will be no choice to sin, like a buffet of good things to eat, but no bad things.
This seems odd, as we know that before Adam sinned in the Garden, Lucifer had already sinned against God in Heaven.

What are your thoughts?

Sin in the new heaven and the new earth is in the lake of fire.

If someone is free to enslave themselves, is their will "freed?"

 

[Servus]

We do know Lucifer sinned in Heaven against God, without a sin nature. Along with a third of the Angelic hosts. Maybe the rules for angels are different then men. Not sure.

This is askew from the topic, but the question came to mind; can angels still sin and be cast out of heaven?

 

[CoreyD]

I am curious of your position. Many Christians would argue that God gives us free will, and that without free will, we would be mindless robots, and that is not a true expression of love.

So when we go to eternal Heaven, here on the new Earth, after the battle of Armageddon and after the great throne judgement, will we have the free will to sin or do evil?

This question seems absurd, but I have heard only two answers.

1) We will not want to sin, because we will have renewed bodies free of our fleshly desires.
Not wanting to sin, doesn't mean we won't be able to sin.... does it?

2) There will be no choice to sin, like a buffet of good things to eat, but no bad things.
This seems odd, as we know that before Adam sinned in the Garden, Lucifer had already sinned against God in Heaven.

What are your thoughts?

It is not an absurd question. It is a good question.
You are correct.

The angels were not mortal sinful beings, and they sinned, so disobeying God does not depend on what kind of body one has.

The son of God was sinless, and he was perfect in love - That is, he reflected his father perfectly.
The relationship he built with his father was such that when on earth, Jesus said, "I do nothing on My own initiative, but I speak these things as the Father taught Me. “And He who sent Me is with Me; He has not left Me alone, for I always do the things that are pleasing to Him.”" John 8:28, 29
"I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works." John14:10

So, because Jesus' love for his father has been perfected - he is one with the father.
Those who go to heaven, are selected because they have proven themselves holy - complete in their love for God, and his Christ.
Thus, the Bible says of them... "Anyone having been born of God does not practice sin, because His seed abides in him, and he is not able to continue sinning, because he has been born of God." 1 John 3:9

Therefore, God is please to make them immortal, because he knows that they will never rebel against him, since they too are also in God, and Christ. John 17:21

that all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You, that they also may be in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.

It is important to know the answer to your question, because persons will ask if sin will repeat in heaven, and result in the world being sinful again.

 

[CoreyD]

I think sin has two components: 1) wrong-doing, and 2) resistance to correction.

For the first part, wrong-doing, this could also be called ignorance, or perhaps even immaturity. A child may not pronounce all their words correctly, and they might have a lisp. We know that as they grow this usually goes away, but for the time being, they are not doing things correctly. Likewise in heaven, I believe that we will every be learning more from God, and increasing in our ability and knowledge and love. If we were to graph this like a financial chart, the line will be ever headed upward. So in heaven, we will ever be putting aside foolishness, and increasing in God's wisdom

For the second part, resistance to correction (rebellion), this is where things really go south. God seems ever willing to set us back on the right path. Like the father of the prodigal son, God wants to take us where we are and help us improve. But if we refuse to admit we are wrong or we resist His attempts to guide us, then we are unable to progress. And this can lead to our destruction. Like one pleading with people on a beach to flee an impending tsunami, God does his best to save us. If we refused to listen, we bring destruction on ourselves.

To directly answer your question, I feel that we will not want to sin in either way. 1) why would we refuse a better way? If someone shows me how to be twice as effective at something I want, why would I ignore it? I believe we will still have free will, but we will have an understanding that lets us follow good advice. And regarding rebellion, I believe that is why God has let our earth run its course, as an experiment that will show what happens when His commands are ignored. Eve disobeyed God, and everyone can see the outcome. Would anyone in their right mind want to go down that path again?

tldr: We will have free will, but because God has allowed consequences to play out, everyone will WANT to follow His guidance.

What do you think?

Best wishes.

KT

Good points Kevin... as usual.

 

[CoreyD]

Interesting thoughts, but it seems to me, if we have free will but just choose a better way, then the thought of the bad way would still be there for consideration, just not acted upon. Then we go back to the Bible, where Jesus tells us if we look on a woman with lustful thoughts, we have already committed adultery. So it appears, even the thought of doing wrong, even if we choose to do right every time, is still problematic.

One thing we do know, there is no plan for dealing with sin after the great throne of judgement.... at least no plan that has been revealed to us.

We must remember Keith, that sinful thoughts are a result of sin in our flesh. Genesis 6:5; Jeremiah 17:9; Romans 7:13-25

We do have thought that are not driven by sin, but this has to do with our mind.
The angel that sinned, dwelled on thoughts that were in opposition to God, but this is because, unlike the Word, he was not perfected in love for the father.
Those who are perfected in love - that is, in God and Christ, cannot get any wrong thoughts in their heart. 1 John 4:12, 16, 17

It's easy to understand it, when we understand perfection.
God is perfect to the ultimate degree. You cannot get more perfect than God, because that is the ultimate. Deuteronomy 32:4
God made Adam perfect to a relative degree - That is, Adam was created at the level of perfection God created him. So were the angels.

Now comes the growth, to reach the level of perfection God wants you to.
The Word reached that perfection, by spending time with the father, and developing the closest bond possible. There is no love greater than that of God, and his beloved son.

The angels who remained faithful to God, were also growing in love for God, but the Bible does not say they have reached that level.
However, I believe some have developed a great love for God. Gabriel, for example, who stands in the presence of God. Luke 1:19

Adam had the privilege of reaching a level of perfection that would have prevented him from sinning, but he failed to develop that love, and Satan introduced sin to him. Matthew 5:48
Thus all mankind fell far short of perfection. Romans 3:23
None were born perfect, but at the very bottom of the "ladder", so to speak.

Persons now have to strive to reach the level of perfection that Adam had.
This was made possible by Jesus coming to earth, and teaching the truth about God, so that persons come to know the love of God.
Through Jesus death, persons can have the effects of sin removed from their body, and thus not get sick, grow old and die, or have sinful thoughts just come into one's heart. Persons can be perfect like Adam, and then have eternity to reach the level of perfection God set for all humans to reach.

That does not mean persons cannot choose to think of our own free will to rebel.
The Bible says that this can and will happen after the 1,000 years. Isaiah 65:20; Revelation 20:7-9
As regards beyond the 1,000 years, persons still have free will.

I'm referring to those living as mortals on earth, here. Not the immortal ones in heaven.
Remember, the immortal ones in heaven cannot sin, because they are born from God. They are in God, and Christ, whose seed is in them.

I hope this is easy to follow.

 

[CoreyD]

Alright, here is what the machine had to say:

To answer Pastor Keith's question specifically, both perspectives suggest that there would be no choice to sin in heaven due to the transformed nature of believers and the absence of temptations or opportunities for sin. However, it is important to note that free-will remains as a capacity to choose good over evil, but its use will not lead to sin since all desires will be oriented towards God's perfect love and righteousness.

Not bad for an AI.

 

[CoreyD]

This is askew from the topic, but the question came to mind; can angels still sin and be cast out of heaven?

That's a good question, and is part of the topic, imo.
I hope @PastorKeith don't mind if I answer.

The answer is Yes, but there are two reasons none of the angels will rebel against God.

1. They remained faithful through the centuries of Satan's, Adam's, and mankind's rebellion.
2. They saw the results of the rebellion, and God vindicated.

They are far more intelligent than humans, and it would be foolish to rebel after that.
They thus will continue loyal, forever serving God willingly.

 

[Offline4Better.]

Not bad for an AI.

Thanks. 7 billion parameters plus over a dozen theological documents seem to do the trick.

 

[Valletta]

I am curious of your position. Many Christians would argue that God gives us free will, and that without free will, we would be mindless robots, and that is not a true expression of love.

So when we go to eternal Heaven, here on the new Earth, after the battle of Armageddon and after the great throne judgement, will we have the free will to sin or do evil?

This question seems absurd, but I have heard only two answers.

1) We will not want to sin, because we will have renewed bodies free of our fleshly desires.
Not wanting to sin, doesn't mean we won't be able to sin.... does it?

2) There will be no choice to sin, like a buffet of good things to eat, but no bad things.
This seems odd, as we know that before Adam sinned in the Garden, Lucifer had already sinned against God in Heaven.

What are your thoughts?

No, we cannot sin in Heaven. In Heaven we are fully united with Christ.